Undecided character for a strong party

[Mikaleus]

Hello everyone!

I may have the opportunity to join another campaign in the future that sounds like it will be a blast to play.
Level 2 start.

The group so far is
2 Barbarians
1 Ranger (will focus on range)
1 Tempest Domain
1 Druid (potential moon)

I’m in 2 minds. For a melee character id pick Paladin a million times over. I love that class.

However, I also think an arcane caster would be a great pick for such a group.

Currently thinking

War wizard for the bonus to initiative to set up a bit of debuffs and CC. Especially ones that do not impeded the party’s movement too much.
Illusionist for illusions could be pretty fun too.

Fey pact warlock. Some spell and invocation shenanigans and eldritch blast beside the ranger. Probably halfling, as being a half elf would prob mean the DM not utilising charms too often against me and some fey pact features seem like you want the DM to just try to charm you....so then you can throw it back on the enemy :D
Celestial pact, with an owl familiar could be an option here for some extra healing.

Another option could be a Glamour Bard.

Obviously I’m going for a sort of tricky controller vibe of an Arcana enthusiast :)

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I'm a big Bard fan. Give the party a face skill monkey. Lore bards are my favorite.

Rogues for the skillz also.

Wizard, Sorcerer or Warlock would all fit. Slight preference to the latter two for the high CHA balance.

Darn, thats 1/2 the classes in the book lol.

[Obermax]

Arcane trickster rogue!

[Mikaleus]

I'm a big Bard fan. Give the party a face skill monkey. Lore bards are my favorite.

Rogues for the skillz also.

Wizard, Sorcerer or Warlock would all fit. Slight preference to the latter two for the high CHA balance.

Darn, thats 1/2 the classes in the book lol.

You make a good point for a Charisma party face.

That narrows it down to

Bard
Warlock

Haven’t given sorcerer much thought

[Keravath]

You make a good point for a Charisma party face.

That narrows it down to

Bard
Warlock

Haven’t given sorcerer much thought

Be both :)

Lore Bard X/Hexblade Warlock 2 can be a lot of fun with the warlock abilities covering a couple of the weaker aspects of the bard. Spells run one level behind but the ability to do decent damage on the turns you aren't casting spells can really come in handy. Variant human with resilient con covers one of the important saves and makes it easier to maintain concentration. Devils sight gives some ability to see in the dark and agonizing blast gives you competitive at will damage to complement your control spells. (Personally, I found vicious mockery just didn't cut it but YMMV).

[MarkVIIIMarc]

You make a good point for a Charisma party face.

That narrows it down to

Bard
Warlock

Haven’t given sorcerer much thought

Let's think about the difference.

Out of combat they can all be similar manipulators. Warlocks get this Mask of Many Faces thing I've been meaning to try out and a shot at an at will illusion spell. The Bard might earn some coin performing. The Warlock has a patron the DM may or may not have good or bad ideas for using. Neither has to be but Warlock spells tend towards darkness. Both Warlocks and Bards benefit from short rests but Warlocks need them. Any idea how long of adventuring days your party will have? Modules seem to have longer days with groups I play in. Homebrew fewer encounters. When I DM I try for longer days with my homebrew and have had some real doozies.

In combat Lore Bards can totally wreck an encounter the DM planned and they have some of the neatest spells I can think of. Phantasmal Force and Dissonant Whispers are loads of fun correctly applied. They get "enough" damaging spells. Shatter, Dissonant Whispers and Thunderwave are low level staples, creativity is rewarded as is the occasional Healing Word and Vicious Mockery or Cutting Words fun. Not that most classes don't get it but by Level 6 a Lore Bard can snag Counterspell which is THE GREATEST defensive spell in the game IMO and they get to ad their Jack of All Trades bonus to it making them a little better. Heck, I even kept a Wizard IN MY PARTY from dropping a Fireball on drunks in a tavern with Counterspell.

In combat my Warlocks spam Eldritch Blast and if you pay attention to Invocations at all get to do solid damage with it. They get to have a little bit of creative fun with Hex or Hellish Rebuke. They also get access to Counterspell also FWIW but you'll have TWO spell slots for most of the game. Still, I'm having fun playing a Warlock who thinks he's donating the souls of evil folks he kills to Glasya.

In combat Sorcerers just hurt things. You'll need a potion or medicine check to save anyone's life. Its just soo easy to quicken or whatever and cause damage with different spells of your draconic choice. They also get Counterspell which is neat. Maybe I'm too serious a gamer but I'd check with the party before I picked a Wild Magic background.

[Sception]

Definitely lacking in utility caster here, and in both party face and loremaster skills. I'd personally lean towards vuman lore bard with ritual caster: wizard as your bonus feat. Really, any bard with rc:wizard would probably do. A straight enchanter wizard that takes some face skills & doesnt dump cha could also fit the bill.

That said, it's hard to pass on paladin in a party that doesnt have one otherwise....

[Mikaleus]

Definitely lacking in utility caster here, and in both party face and loremaster skills. I'd personally lean towards vuman lore bard with ritual caster: wizard as your bonus feat. Really, any bard with rc:wizard would probably do. A straight enchanter wizard that takes some face skills & doesnt dump cha could also fit the bill.

That said, it's hard to pass on paladin in a party that doesnt have one otherwise....

To Smite or not to Smite, that is the question 🤣

My Ancients paladin in my first campaign was an absolute tonne of fun to play.

This time around, I think for a different pace the Lore Bard is shaping up to be quite the decent choice.

[Mikaleus]

Let's think about the difference.

Out of combat they can all be similar manipulators. Warlocks get this Mask of Many Faces thing I've been meaning to try out and a shot at an at will illusion spell. The Bard might earn some coin performing. The Warlock has a patron the DM may or may not have good or bad ideas for using. Neither has to be but Warlock spells tend towards darkness. Both Warlocks and Bards benefit from short rests but Warlocks need them. Any idea how long of adventuring days your party will have? Modules seem to have longer days with groups I play in. Homebrew fewer encounters. When I DM I try for longer days with my homebrew and have had some real doozies.

In combat Lore Bards can totally wreck an encounter the DM planned and they have some of the neatest spells I can think of. Phantasmal Force and Dissonant Whispers are loads of fun correctly applied. They get "enough" damaging spells. Shatter, Dissonant Whispers and Thunderwave are low level staples, creativity is rewarded as is the occasional Healing Word and Vicious Mockery or Cutting Words fun. Not that most classes don't get it but by Level 6 a Lore Bard can snag Counterspell which is THE GREATEST defensive spell in the game IMO and they get to ad their Jack of All Trades bonus to it making them a little better. Heck, I even kept a Wizard IN MY PARTY from dropping a Fireball on drunks in a tavern with Counterspell.

In combat my Warlocks spam Eldritch Blast and if you pay attention to Invocations at all get to do solid damage with it. They get to have a little bit of creative fun with Hex or Hellish Rebuke. They also get access to Counterspell also FWIW but you'll have TWO spell slots for most of the game. Still, I'm having fun playing a Warlock who thinks he's donating the souls of evil folks he kills to Glasya.

In combat Sorcerers just hurt things. You'll need a potion or medicine check to save anyone's life. Its just soo easy to quicken or whatever and cause damage with different spells of your draconic choice. They also get Counterspell which is neat. Maybe I'm too serious a gamer but I'd check with the party before I picked a Wild Magic background.
Lore Bard is definitely looking to be a great choice for this particular group.

As for warlocks, I’m a bit of a Fey fan so any warlock I’ll play will be Feylock.
Always thought a pact with a sprite would be interesting. Invisible scout etc

Your warlock sounds cool 👍😎

[Tallytrev813]

Lore bard.

Pick up Crusaders Mantle at lvl 6 with magical secrets for great party damage buff. Literally your whole party will benefit

You’re

1. The Healer - grab healing word to keep people alive.

2. The debuffer/buffer

3. The party face

[MrStabby]

Swashbuckler Hexblade could be good:

Decent damage at melee or range - ability to pull down even more with hexblades curse when you need it.

You get the cha focus.

Invocations give you some at-will magic to flesh out the character.

You get to cover off the skills the party is missing and have expertise in two of them (potentially more later).


Hexblade 5 rogue X would be fun if you wanted to go for two attacks but that would take you away from pact of the tome and all its wonderful utility. Hexblade 1 rogue X would be pretty much a rogue with a few more tricks and focused on charisma.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Has anyone played a fighter1 wizard/spellcaster (everything else)? fighter for tge armour health and proficiencies. Then you can blast and tank.

[NoxMiasma]

A very good generalist warlock, which can fulfil a variety of different roles, healer, face, skills, or even tank, is a vHuman Celestial Tomelock. You get Healing Word-lite, face skills - with the Cha to back them up, good cantrips, invocation flexibility, all the rituals ever, and 9 cantrips. Feat options include nabbing Moderately Armoured, Warcaster, and then capping Cha.

[Bobthewizard]

Has anyone played a fighter1 wizard/spellcaster (everything else)? fighter for tge armour health and proficiencies. Then you can blast and tank.

I have. It's a fun character. You really notice the spell lag at levels 3 and 5 when you're a spell level behind, but once you get fireball and hypnotic pattern at level 6 the rest is good. Using booming blade and/or green flame blade saves having to take a lot of non-concentration combat spells so I could take more utility. In combat, with plate, shield, and the shield spell, I was a pretty good tank despite the lower hit points. I would cast a concentration spell (usually web or hypnotic pattern) then wade into melee.

[moonfly7]

I have a few suggestions of varrying reasonability. Here they are from makes sense to waaaaaa?
1. Go warlock. You can be the face of the party easily with high CHA and back it up with the more social invocations. If you think your party could use the heals, go celestial, you get a butt ton of healing, and are still the parties face. Want to still smite even though you arent a paladin? Go pact of the blade and grab the eldritch smite.
2. If you want to deal more damage in close range as warlock, go hex blade. Now your hit them stat and your charm them stat are the same stat.
3. Play a pact of the chain lock with fey pact. Secretly, you are the fey familiar, part of the pact is that the creature you made it with is permanently charmed by you and follows orders to the letter.
4. Put levels in bard and lock. Max out persuasion. Take fey pact. Run it like your bard is so frigging awesome that he got a fey to fall in love with him. Bonus points if he isn't the typical seduction scoundrel and it happened completely on accident, and now He suddenly has one powerful girlfriend.
5. Take levels in every class with cantrips. Surprisingly, that mostly just requires charisma, and a bit of int and wis. Now, get every cantrip you can, grab the cantrip feats, pact of the tome, arcana cleric, that one druid subclass that gives you one, illusionist wizard for one extra. You even need to dip levels into fighter and rogue for at can trickster and eldritch knight. This will give you roughly 39 Out of 44 cantrips that are in the game. They scale with your levels, but over all, not levels in one class. Now, your the biggest utility caster ever. Now use your levels in warlock and sorcerer to stock pile spell slots as a coffee lock, never use spell slots in combat because you have 39 cantrips. When you have too, cast 9th level spell slots for every spell. Because you'll have tons of them. Or at least hundreds of 1st-5th level spells.

And so ends my crazy ideas. Hope it helps.

[Bloodcloud]

With two barb, a tempest cleric and a moon druid, your group has plenty of melee/tanking potential. A sharpshooter ranger should deal plenty damage and is tanky enough with is d10 hd. You can afford to go full squishy.

Between druid and cleric, healing has decent cover.

Ranged attacks are on the low side. Druid can do some, Ranger is main ranged, cleric got some possibility. Having some ranged damage would be usefull.

No cha/skillfull character here, so Charisma main would be damn near necessary.

For area attack, there's not much here. Moon druid can get some going if needed, Tempest cleric has some decent options too. You'd do well to bring some to the table.

I'm guessing everybody on this table has dumped int.

So, what are our best options?

Tome fiend warlock seems good. You get the wizard rituals, ranged damage, Cha main and good blasts along with a few control options, and some decent shenanigan going with invocations. Repelling blast and spike growth is a great combo, apply hex to give advantage to moon druid grapple forms which also combos with spike growth. Fey might be more thematic given the amount of nature-themed characters (well, all of them actually, even tempest is quite nature-y)

Lore bard could be awesome. Great face, covers skill gap, and with magical secret you can pickup the blasting/ranged capacity that is missing.

Sorcerer is also good. Blast and twinned buffs. I wouldn't go divine as that is well covered, you could probably afford to go tempest for the mobility, dragon for the blasts or darkness

[Tallytrev813]

Crusaders mantle will passively add 1d4 radiant damage to each attack from your party members

Barbs taking 2 a round, probably more if someone has Polearm master and/or is taking reaction attacks

Ranger has 2-3

Tempest Cleric im not familiar with...1?

Moon druid has 1-2 in animal form.

You're looking at 10-12, probably, attacks from them a round.

Go Lore bard and pick up Crusaders mantle, you're passively adding something like 11d4 damage per round, and youll still have whatever action you want to take for buffing/debuffing/casting/attacking.

Plus Lore Bard is party face, has heals, all the skills, honestly can do anything you want spell wise...

Lore bard is a slam dunk here

[MrStabby]

Crusaders mantle will passively add 1d4 radiant damage to each attack from your party members

Barbs taking 2 a round, probably more if someone has Polearm master and/or is taking reaction attacks

Ranger has 2-3

Tempest Cleric im not familiar with...1?

Moon druid has 1-2 in animal form.

You're looking at 10-12, probably, attacks from them a round.

Go Lore bard and pick up Crusaders mantle, you're passively adding something like 11d4 damage per round, and youll still have whatever action you want to take for buffing/debuffing/casting/attacking.

Plus Lore Bard is party face, has heals, all the skills, honestly can do anything you want spell wise...

Lore bard is a slam dunk here

Not saying that lore bard is bad, but I think you are overselling crusader's mantle a bit here. It's an OK spell but:

1) 30 ft radius. This is pretty high, but you won't always cover the whole party with this.
2) The extra damage is on a hit. You won't get 11d4 per round unless every single attack hits.
3) It requires weapon attacks - DM dependant on whether they count natural weapons as weapons
4) The 11d4 is only after the first round. On the first round it is dependant on the number of allies that go after you
5) It may take a round for melee combatants to come into range, delaying the time till you get the benefits. There may be rounds in the middle of combat where a dash action is needed (lets hope never to more than 30ft away from where you are
6) Enemies might interfere with your plans by casting spells such as hold person or fear or some other effect that means not every party member makes all their attacks.
7) It's concentration dependant. If someone is going to throw a fireball at the back lines then you could lose this - you may not get as many attacks out of this as you think.

On the other hand you could also grab animate dead with it and buff your army (if natural weapons count there is also conjure animals). With a liberal DM it will also work with animate objects. Not a bad spell, but not quite as good as it immediately looks, as it relies on a lot of other moving parts. More often I would just take fireball - factoring in concentration and missed attacks and it doing half damage on a passed save it will do not much less damage in most fights, whilst also being front loaded so you thin enemies out quicker. Plus then you can use your concentration for a control spell that will at least cut the inbound attacks against you.

[CTurbo]

I'd definitely choose a Charisma based class here. If you love Paladin so much that would be great, if not Paladin, I'd go Bard all the way. Lore is probably the top choice, but all of them are great.

This would also be a good time to play a straight class Sorcerer as they are the ultimate glass cannon and you have an extremely powerful front line.

Divine Souls are the ultimate support character that could also sprinkle in some great blasting spells.
Wild Sorcerer's are a lot of fun(and even better if you're not starting at level 1 or 2)
Draconic Sorcs are great straightforward blasters.

[Corran]

Warlock sounds like a good idea. Firstly because the pary would profit from a face, secondly because it helps with the damage output of the group. You are in a melee heavy party, so adding a second character that can do good damage from range helps with that. But the thing I am thinking about the most, is fly with a 4th or 5th level slot, so that you can have it work on both barbarians and possibly on someone else too (flying moon druid in animal form or flying cleric perhaps).

Sorcerer or wizard wouldn't be bad either.

Sorcerer has good charisma so you can be the face as with a warlock above, but I was thinking more of stuff like casting a debuff AoE such as fear (lots of OA's) or hypnotic pattern with the careful spell metamagic (which I think is essential, given the many melee allies you'll have). I think I'd go with divine soul and look at twinned as my second metamagic. Twinned heroism is my first thought, cause it will work very nicely on the two barbarians (not sure how well it will scale, though I think it will remain a decent option), but there will be other candidates too as you advance in sorcerer levels. Twinned (and divine soul to a smaller extent) is all about buffing, and you have several allies that will make good use of the buffs you will be able to toss out. Aid will be a great use of your 2nd level slots as well, more so once you start playing with higher level spells.

Wizard can't be a wrong choice and since you are lacking a arcane spellcaster. I think that between the cleric and the druid the party might have enough utility to allow you to pick either warlock or sorcerer over wizard and thus specialize more in sth than just get access to the best arsenal of arcane spells, but I might as well be horribly mistaken about that. In any case, if I went with wizard, I would pick evoker so that I can blast reliably, because with that many melee allies, blasting will be troublesome if you don't have something like sculpt spells that the evocation school offers. Edit: Though, on second thought, your cleric might have blasting covered, with spirit guardians and call lightning.

ps: Counterspell and inspiring leader (worth considering even if you don't end up with a charisma based class) are things you should look to get imo.

[Tallytrev813]

Not saying that lore bard is bad, but I think you are overselling crusader's mantle a bit here. It's an OK spell but:

1) 30 ft radius. This is pretty high, but you won't always cover the whole party with this.
2) The extra damage is on a hit. You won't get 11d4 per round unless every single attack hits.
3) It requires weapon attacks - DM dependant on whether they count natural weapons as weapons
4) The 11d4 is only after the first round. On the first round it is dependant on the number of allies that go after you
5) It may take a round for melee combatants to come into range, delaying the time till you get the benefits. There may be rounds in the middle of combat where a dash action is needed (lets hope never to more than 30ft away from where you are
6) Enemies might interfere with your plans by casting spells such as hold person or fear or some other effect that means not every party member makes all their attacks.
7) It's concentration dependant. If someone is going to throw a fireball at the back lines then you could lose this - you may not get as many attacks out of this as you think.

On the other hand you could also grab animate dead with it and buff your army (if natural weapons count there is also conjure animals). With a liberal DM it will also work with animate objects. Not a bad spell, but not quite as good as it immediately looks, as it relies on a lot of other moving parts. More often I would just take fireball - factoring in concentration and missed attacks and it doing half damage on a passed save it will do not much less damage in most fights, whilst also being front loaded so you thin enemies out quicker. Plus then you can use your concentration for a control spell that will at least cut the inbound attacks against you.

Of course there's ways to disrupt Crusaders mantle

But when the entire party of like 5 players is making Melee strikes, its an enormous damage buff.

Yah, theres a range. Yah, concentration can be broken. Yah, others may go before you in initiation (Though Lore bard gets a lot of Initiative roll buff with Jack of All Trades and +Dex)

but still, its 1 spell slot that will, over the course of a fight, will likely do a boat load of damage with that party composition.

[Mikaleus]

Big thanks to everyone’s answers.

Played my other adventure/short camping last night and the Bladesinger I had intended to play ended up a level 2 Bard instead.
Was a lot of fun - didn’t get to RP too much as we were in a dungeon most of the session, but I’ve found the playstyle of buff, faerie fire, healing word and bardic inspiration heaps of fun. Did find it amusing how so many forgot that they had advantage, or even the bardic inspiration die, but did feel like I was contributing.
I may love Paladins (particularly ancients) but it seems playing the support caster is my new shtick 😃

For the group that this topic is about, I’m thinking a bard would have been great. But as I’m currently playing one in the other campaign thinking Warlock or Sorcerer will be the way to go, for then charismatic arcane guy :)

Lot of great info to sift through and again Thankyou to everyone 🧙*♂️

[Aaron Underhand]

Hello everyone!

I may have the opportunity to join another campaign in the future that sounds like it will be a blast to play.
Level 2 start.

The group so far is
2 Barbarians
1 Ranger (will focus on range)
1 Tempest Domain
1 Druid (potential moon)

I’m in 2 minds. For a melee character id pick Paladin a million times over. I love that class.

However, I also think an arcane caster would be a great pick for such a group.

Currently thinking

War wizard for the bonus to initiative to set up a bit of debuffs and CC. Especially ones that do not impeded the party’s movement too much.
Illusionist for illusions could be pretty fun too.

Fey pact warlock. Some spell and invocation shenanigans and eldritch blast beside the ranger. Probably halfling, as being a half elf would prob mean the DM not utilising charms too often against me and some fey pact features seem like you want the DM to just try to charm you....so then you can throw it back on the enemy :D
Celestial pact, with an owl familiar could be an option here for some extra healing.

Another option could be a Glamour Bard.

Obviously I’m going for a sort of tricky controller vibe of an Arcana enthusiast :)


I played in a party that was:

Barbarian
Rogue Thief
Moon Druid
War Cleric
Archer Ranger

I played Lore Bard, except I took level 2 as Wizard (Int 14)... vHuman with the Healer Feat.

I think this would fit as it is a very similar party make up...

I was the arcane blaster, the face, the (Int) skill monkey, and the squishy God Mage, but with cutting words and shield spell. I would play that character again - you get:

Fantastic basic healing - I took Healing Word for bonus action get ups, but hardly ever used it, and I freed up many spell slots on the Druid and Cleric as well

All first level rituals I could copy to my spell book - including Find Familiar and Identify... coupled with the Cleric and the Druid there were very few rituals we didn't have.

Great first level spells with the flexibility to change them out - Often it was magic missile and feather fall and shield in the wizard slots, but I could mix and match

Ability to use Wizard scrolls (and make low level scrolls - usually had a few silent image and fog spells). With enhance ability and guidance even higher level scrolls are a good chance to cast. I could also use Restoration scrolls from the cleric ... well worth having

Great Bard spell selection, as I had no need for utility first level spells, so more variety and picks from the bard's spell list.

Full casting progression - half the levels I didn't even miss on the max spells, as the extra freedom to pick spells afforded by the wizard filling level 1 gave me excellent top level choices.

Better cantrips - I had chill touch (for no regeneration) and Acid splash (for minor AoE)

Arcane recovery giving an extra 1st level spell slot a day

...and ability to use any wizard only items we picked up.

I also had expertise in Investigation and Arcarna - and despite having a cleric and druid I was the one casting Enhance Ability - in and out of combat... oh and I also had proficiency in thieves tools from my background - used mostly for help actions

Levels 6,7,8 were fantastic as I acquired:

Level 6 (Bard 5): Hypnotic Pattern and L Tiny Hut
Level 7 (Bard 6): Fireball and Counterspell
Level 8 (Bard 7): Polymorph (and potentially Greater Invisibility - though I didn't take that)

... also it only takes a headband of intellect to fall and your wizard level becomes golden

I had thought I would take level 2 in wizard for divination portent... but somehow Bard was always a more fun pick....

[Mikaleus]

Slight update to this group composition.

1 Hunter Ranger
1 Beserker Barbarian
1 Moon Druid
1 Dreams Druid
1 Tempest Cleric