Dungeon Builder System Brainstorming

[Rider]

So this is just a system I've been tossing around in my head for a bit with the idea of allowing a character to become a Dungeon Lord almost like a class. The purpose is to allow a player to build and populate their own dungeon to gain experience and loot through luring other adventurers into it and killing them (obviously intended for evil or at least morally grey characters).

The system revolves around a resource I'm currently just calling mana, but will probably rename at some point down the line. Once a character decides to become a Dungeon Lord, they have to craft a core to act as the heart of the dungeon. The core is an artifact level magic item that will cost several thousand gold in materials, months of in game time and possibly some experience to create. It then must be placed where ever the player wants their dungeon.

The core gains levels similar to a character, but instead of being based on experience, it is based on collected mana. Mana exists underground, growing denser the lower you go, so adding new floors to the dungeon increases the flow of mana. With a first level dungeon core, it gains mana at a rate of 10 per day. It would take 100 days to reach 1000 mana, which is the amount needed to level up to a second level dungeon and add a new floor. However, mana is also used to summon guardians to inhabit the dungeon, to build traps within the dungeon and to stock the dungeon with the loot that will attract adventurers. So the player has to balance spending mana on the dungeon and saving it for leveling up. Obviously monsters, traps and loot all have different mana costs, and slain monsters, triggered traps and stolen loot cost mana to respawn.

Every level of the dungeon would also have a limit on how many rooms/guardians it can have, so the player can't just make an endless labyrinth filled with a never-ending hoard of monsters. Something like:
Level___Rooms__Guardian Limit___Mana to Next Level
__1_______4__________10____________1000____
__2_______6__________20____________2500____
__3_______8__________30____________4000____
__4______10__________40____________5500____
__5______12__________50____________7000____
(This is an arbitrary example and the numbers are jut place holders.)

For every adventurer killed in the dungeon, the Dungeon Lord gets a portion of experience (Roughly one half the amount they would get for killing the adventurer directly). This turns their dungeon into an experience battery, as long as they can maintain it and defend the core. If the core is broken or stolen the dungeon collapses and all collected mana is lost.

Anyway this is just something that has been bouncing around in my head and I wanted to put it out there and see if there is anyone else interested in this kind of system who might want to brainstorm with me.

[noob]

So someone who decides to go do a dungeon with no connection to the surface nor to any other thing underground could just chill and wait for the mana to come and gain levels safely?

[Rider]

So someone who decides to go do a dungeon with no connection to the surface nor to any other thing underground could just chill and wait for the mana to come and gain levels safely?

If it has no connections to anything how would they get in in the first place?

Also what would be the point? The player doesn't gain anything from mana. The dungeon's core could level up, but it would take years to do it while providing nothing to the player in the mean time.

[noob]

If it has no connections to anything how would they get in in the first place?

Also what would be the point? The player doesn't gain anything from mana. The dungeon's core could level up, but it would take years to do it while providing nothing to the player in the mean time.

Dig with a dig speed that leave no tunnel.
Or alternatively use a shovel to dig 50 meters then fill back the hole after digging that deep(it takes a long time however)

It also takes only 100 days for first level and then the mana production is higher.

[Rider]

Dig with a dig speed that leave no tunnel.
Or alternatively use a shovel to dig 50 meters then fill back the hole after digging that deep(it takes a long time however)

It also takes only 100 days for first level and then the mana production is higher.

I'll state again that the numbers presented above are arbitrary place holders since this is still in the brain storming stage.

Obviously some rules would have to be put in place to handle something like what you have brought up. Hence why I brought the concept here to work with other people to figure out constructive solutions.

But you seem less interested in brainstorming or contributing suggestions and more interested in just pointing out flaws without adding anything constructive.

[noob]

I'll state again that the numbers presented above are arbitrary place holders since this is still in the brain storming stage.

Obviously some rules would have to be put in place to handle something like what you have brought up. Hence why I brought the concept here to work with other people to figure out constructive solutions.

But you seem less interested in brainstorming or contributing suggestions and more interested in just pointing out flaws without adding anything constructive.
It is not a flaw: it is just a possible thing to do when there is only one resource for doing everything.
There is people who goes and starts creating stuff and selling it to gain gold without murderkilling anything and those people are usually npcs.
The fact the system allows to produce slowly without harming people is in no way a flaw: the aventurers will anyway want the quick way that inflicts harm but it can be an interesting worldbuilding tool that you can make a dungeon without harming people.(it could explain why there would be so many abandoned dungeons: non evil npcs created them and gained some levels from those then they died of old age and their dungeons are still here)

You can think "It is possible to open a restaurant without killing people" is an intrinsic flaw but I did not make that judgement.
I never made a value judgement on outcomes of the system I only pointed at a possible outcome that was not described in your post but that the rules did make possible.
It is up to you to decide whenever something that you did not intend is for you a flaw or not but I did not say it was a flaw.

[Razade]

I'll state again that the numbers presented above are arbitrary place holders since this is still in the brain storming stage.

Obviously some rules would have to be put in place to handle something like what you have brought up. Hence why I brought the concept here to work with other people to figure out constructive solutions.

But you seem less interested in brainstorming or contributing suggestions and more interested in just pointing out flaws without adding anything constructive.

Noob pointing this out is constructive. They're looking at your reasoning and showing you what happens with the system you've presented. Saying it's a place holder doesn't do much. What do you intend to do to fix the issues they've brought up? Other than yell at them for not helping you the way you want them to help you?

[Rider]

It is not a flaw: it is just a possible thing to do when there is only one resource for doing everything.
There is people who goes and starts creating stuff and selling it to gain gold without murderkilling anything and those people are usually npcs.
The fact the system allows to produce slowly without harming people is in no way a flaw: the aventurers will anyway want the quick way that inflicts harm but it can be an interesting worldbuilding tool that you can make a dungeon without harming people.(it could explain why there would be so many abandoned dungeons: non evil npcs created them and gained some levels from those then they died of old age and their dungeons are still here)

You can think "It is possible to open a restaurant without killing people" is an intrinsic flaw but I did not make that judgement.
I never made a value judgement on outcomes of the system I only pointed at a possible outcome that was not described in your post but that the rules did make possible.
It is up to you to decide whenever something that you did not intend is for you a flaw or not but I did not say it was a flaw.

Ah, see you didn't present the case this way initially. Seemed more like you were simply trying to pick things apart to prove they wont work.

The first hurdle I would see with the idle NPC problem would be the creation of the core however. The idea is for a core to be extremely expensive/difficult to create. Anyone who can do it could likely make more money other ways. the main draw of the dungeon comes from the XP gained through killing adventurers rather than the loot it can create.


Noob pointing this out is constructive. They're looking at your reasoning and showing you what happens with the system you've presented. Saying it's a place holder doesn't do much. What do you intend to do to fix the issues they've brought up? Other than yell at them for not helping you the way you want them to help you?

I'm not yelling at anyone. I'm simply stating how I perceived things, which I now see I was wrong about.

There is no tone of voice in written text. I apologize if my words were misinterpreted in a negative way.

[Great Dragon]

Hope my comments are helpful.


The first hurdle I would see with the idle NPC problem would be the creation of the core however. The idea is for a core to be extremely expensive/difficult to create. Anyone who can do it could likely make more money other ways.
See, this statement seems to say (to me) that only those that were driven by the desire for more power, but are passive/aggressive about it, would even be interested in doing this.

Most "Adventuring" types aren't usually skilled in the crafting of things. (something about patience)

And expensive items require materials to make - which to acquire, is where "Adventuring" skills are needed. (See typical Adventuring Quest/s by "Crafting" Mage/s)

Then there's the Tools/Skills needed - an investment at Character Creation, which usually requires sacrificing other, more useful/needed "Adventuring" Skills.

And finally - the Time needed to Craft the Core.
Which means lots of chances of someone/thing interrupting that process. Usually from Natural Disasters and Random Encounters, but can be deliberate sabotage.


the main draw of the dungeon comes from the XP gained through killing adventurers rather than the loot it can create.

Right. Ok. You got your Core (somehow) and built your Dungeon; now you want results.

As pointed out, not having a means of entry is not helpful. (Reference to the many Modules where this was tried - including Demi-Plane/s - but, somehow, monsters that were never intended to be, are always there when the PCs finally figured out how to get in) I mean, sure, just sitting there and letting the Mana build up, can be done. But, even at 100 days to level up, it's boring as all get out.
Plus, you just spent an unknown amount of time, money and effort getting set up, are you Really just going to stop and sit on your tush?

To me, Exp is also a type of currency.
(but then, I still tend to think in 3.x terms a lot)

Sure, let's say that Mana can be used to create Rooms and connecting hallways.

Treasure gained from killing PCs can be used for most upgrades. Doors, locks, and traps.
Monsters?

But new Levels of the Dungeon might cost more than just Mana or gold. Does the PC need to sacrifice some Exp to get this? Gives a feel for more "personal investment" that way.
It also makes them choose "personal upgrade" verses "Dungeon upgrade".
5e got rid of that, so some Players may not like this.


This is how I go about letting Players make Dungeons.

Step Zero: Decide on LV/CR and theme.

Step One: Decide on Location of Dungeon, not just in the World, but including Area/Region around it.

Step Two: give amounts for resources available.
Money and Build Points.

Step Three: costs: rooms (100 gp per 10' cube), doors (50 gp for wood, 100 gp for stone, 1,000 gp for steel, 10,000 gp for adamantine), traps (100 gp per CR), furniture, etc.

Step Four: determine cost of monster recruitment.

Step Five: Dungeon Upgrades (new levels) cost Exp and money. (Something like 1,000 gp and 100 Exp per Floor. So, level 2 would cost 2k gp and 200 Exp; level 3 would be another 3k gp and 300 Exp, etc.

All of these things are told at Session Zero, and all values are (mostly) set, for fairness.

The only real variables are Costs for Humanoid recruitment versus Monster acquisition.
I've kinda forgotten exactly what I had.
Something like 100 gp/HD and 250 gp/Class Level.

So, you can have a Kobold Lair, but getting a Dragon as well is not easy. Plus, if you get both Dragon and Kobolds, making sure that the Dragon has room to move around inside the Dungeon, and including being able to get outside; costs more.

[noob]

Now imagine someone who spent tons on money on a dungeon core and which is patient(: you can not expect adventurers to go to your dungeon the same day as it is created)
That person is likely to not want an unreliable investment.
If he is waiting for adventurers to go in his dungeon he is making his investment triply unreliable.
1: even if it is in an easily accessible place(for example right in the middle of a touristic town) there might be no adventurers around (since adventurers are fairly rare)
2: If adventurers decides to interact with the dungeon they might either be too strong and murder-kill everything in the dungeon and steal the dungeon core and whatever or the adventurers might be tactical and destroy the dungeon from far before then getting the loot from the rubble (yes most of the loot is lost but it is so much safer).
3: If the dungeon gets even a slight bit of reputation of dangerousness(ex: 2 adventurers teams went in and never comes back) the people might start evaluating the power of the dungeon and then only parties high level enough for having more than 50% odds of beating the dungeon would go and try the dungeon thus making the investment extremely in danger of being destroyed and no other adventurer teams would go in so if really mighty adventurers are needed then maybe you would never ever have adventurers in the dungeon again.

Therefore even if the safe option is boring and takes a long time to reimburse the investment unless the person is a player character the safe option is more reliable.
The reason why player characters does tons of crazy things(such as making a dungeon core and waiting for adventurers to go in) and always have solutions is that player characters are generally favoured by the creator of the universe they are in.

So the conclusion is that realistically only players would have interest in making their dungeon accessible.
Except in the following cases.
1: The monsters can go out of the dungeon in which case the dungeon is not used for looting adventurers but instead to create shock troops for the owner of the dungeon that are then located as mercenaries for much more money than adventurers could ever grant.
2:The dungeons are used to showcase how rich you are and as home security and not as a "dungeon" and there is of course tons of extra paid guards because you are rich and eccentric and paranoid.(and it is in the middle of the town so that town guards can go and protect it)
3:you filled the entire planet with zillions of dungeon cores that are busy making creatures and resources to make other dungeon cores and so now you have to create dungeon cores in accessible places because all the unaccessible places are filled.(aka mad evil immortal phenomenon)
4: You are sending yourself a constant stream of zombie adventurers you created yourself at the dungeon who then just stands in it waiting for being killed (or you are a mad overlord that execute people by dropping them from 500 meter high into your dungeon or some other source of instakilled people who does not go in the dungeon on their own volition: those who go on their own in the dungeon are dangerous to the dungeon because they are prepared and not dropped from 500 meters high and near dead before being dropped).

The four possible cases I mentioned are fun plot hooks or world building tools but probably not what you had in mind.
However since players are blessed by the gm to succeed of course they can go the way you imagined.