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Alex12
2007-10-05, 03:16 PM
On another forum, I'm in a PbP game as a level 5 kineticist. We're in a forest, and there's a fairly large group of Gnolls wandering the plains nearby. One of the party members, before he joined us, was tracking them, and we'll probably be trying to kill them fairly soon. Also, my character only recently escaped from Drow, who were using him as slave labor, and they want him back. I was trying to think of a possible way to kill large numbers of enemies at once (which we may well be facing), when I came up with the idea of deliberately triggering a forest fire to burn them all. Actually setting the fire would be a piece of cake with Matter Agitation on some underbrush or a tree. However, I don't see any mechanic for determining how fast it would spread. I checked the hypertext SRD, but the best I could find was for a forest fire already in progress. Any thoughts?

DraPrime
2007-10-05, 03:28 PM
It's pretty much up to the DM. Some quick modification to the existing forest fire rules should be easy. I think that it's going to depend how you start it. If you make a big boom then it'll probably burn quickly. If you just toss some burning torches all over the place that's going to be different.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-05, 03:31 PM
Check the Archetypal Events section of the DMG-II. They discuss a house fire, but a forest fire will probably be rather similar.

Alex12
2007-10-05, 03:37 PM
It's pretty much up to the DM. Some quick modification to the existing forest fire rules should be easy. I think that it's going to depend how you start it. If you make a big boom then it'll probably burn quickly. If you just toss some burning torches all over the place that's going to be different.

It's a play-by-post game, and I was planning on using Matter Agitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/matterAgitation.htm) to start the fires. I could probably convince the wizard to help with a few fireballs, but I'm not sure.

EDIT:if that's too slow, I could use a Fire Energy Burst

Truwar
2007-10-05, 03:40 PM
The only intelligent creatures a forest fire will kill with any kind of dependability would be creatures that stay and try to put the fire out. It might do a pretty good job of covering your tracks but then again it might give you a NEW enemy, in the form of the local Druid whose forest you just set on fire...

Alex12
2007-10-05, 03:53 PM
The only intelligent creatures a forest fire will kill with any kind of dependability would be creatures that stay and try to put the fire out. It might do a pretty good job of covering your tracks but then again it might give you a NEW enemy, in the form of the local Druid whose forest you just set on fire...

Ah, good point about the Druid, and one I had totally failed to consider. Yeah, that would be bad, especially since there's a druid in the party (though he seems somewhat antisocial)

I'll keep the idea on the back burner (I didn't realize the pun until after typing it)

PlatinumJester
2007-10-05, 04:19 PM
There are rules for forest fires in one of the books.

They spread according to the wind and every so often the PCs are entitled to spot checks which become easier as the fire spreads. After it is about 100ft away thethe PC automatically sense it.

It's all on P87 in the DMG in the bottom right hand corner and it's has a CR6

Alex12
2007-10-05, 04:26 PM
There are rules for forest fires in one of the books.

They spread according to the wind and every so often the PCs are entitled to spot checks which become easier as the fire spreads. After it is about 100ft away thethe PC automatically sense it.

It's all on P87 in the DMG in the bottom right hand corner and it's has a CR6

yeah, I know that. I was planning on starting one as a PC. But I don't want to anger the druid at this point.

captain_decadence
2007-10-05, 05:02 PM
Um, forest fires kill people all the time. And not just those that are staying to fight it. Forest fires don't spread as a wall or even operate like a house fire. They are extremely hot, extremely fast and spread in tendrils. These tendrils can cut you off way before you know that you are even close to being trapped. So while you can't use a forest fire to reliably kill a single individual, you can totally use a forest fire to kill at least some of a group.

daggaz
2007-10-05, 06:08 PM
Yeah, I'll second that. Forest fires suck. They are all kinds of deadly. Smoke, heat, lack of oxygen, and direct contact with fire kill you in that order. A big fire can kill you before its even that close to you because of this. And they can travel faster than a car, sometimes with explosive force. Dont forget the massive confusion they spread as the smoke and noise of the conflagration blinds and deafens you.... Plus panic...

Seriously, an elk is a very smart animal, and it can run way way faster than you can, and those poor things die in droves everytime we have a serious forest fire in Oregon.

But yeah, gamewise, it's pretty much up to the DM to handwave his way thru this one. Wind, dryness, type of fuel, how it starts... there are so many conditional modifiers..

MaxMahem
2007-10-05, 10:04 PM
I second that starting a forest-fire is probably a pretty bad idea. It's a pretty indiscriminate means of killing people/things. It's pretty certainly a chaotic evil act (which may conflict with your alignment). I mean think about it, that forest took decades to grow, but will all burn down in a couple days. Taking vast quantities of local wild-life, and in D&D who knows what kind of fey and other sentient magical creatures. It could destroy all kinds of people homes, and might even kill you if you weren't careful.

The local druids will almost certainly come after you. Though if I was your DM they would probably be the least of your worries. The undead vengeful spirits of murdered dryads and nymphs would be the ones you would have to fear. Zombie nymphs are NEVER a good thing.

Alex12
2007-10-05, 10:27 PM
Okay, got it, starting a forest fire is a bad plan.

SoD
2007-10-06, 08:16 AM
One of my character accidentally started a forest fire. His cloak caught on fire in the first encounter, and, instead of putting it, threw it into the forest. The dry forest. Then, when the fire had began to spread, the party just left. Most of the party was in front of it, and hadn't noticed, or were staying in the caravan. Now? The village they were meant to be protecting from Goblins (Screaminh Horde...published adventure) has burned down.

Cobra
2007-10-07, 02:16 AM
Couple of points I figure I should address.

Forest fires aren't all that easy to create if the conditions aren't right. Unless the region is already very dry from summer/drought or some such, most fires will simply fizzle out after they burn off whatever local kindling is around. Actually setting trees full of moisture and sap on fire takes a tremendous amount of heat.

2nd: fires are part of the natural life cycle of forest ecologies, so creating one isn't automatically evil. Nor does it have to enrage every forest spirit or druid in the region.

3rd: Forest fires are very dangerous in real life. But this is DnD. Heroes and villains routinely survive getting immolated by fireballs and lightning bolts. So forest fires really aren't that dangerous. They might kill off large numbers of local mooks, assuming they don't have a member with skill in survival or geography who can lead them to a natural firebreak, but are unlikely to take out serious opponents.

Anxe
2007-10-07, 09:42 AM
It depends on how dry the trees are. Look up real Forest Fires and then you can get an approximation of how fast this one should spread.

headwarpage
2007-10-07, 10:19 AM
And just for the sake of injecting even more undesired realism into this scenario...

The spreading of the forest fire also depends on the type of forest. Conifers, for instance, burn more readily than hardwoods because of the high pitch content. You can throw green fir boughs on a campfire to get an impressive ball of flame, if you're so inclined. The large woody portions of the tree burn less readily, but if the fire gets into the canopy, it can spread incredibly quickly and drop back to the ground miles away. Understory fires, on the other hand, tend to burn up the available fuel, char a few trunks, then go out. Unless, as has been mentioned, conditions are just right for the fire to spread.

Actually, climate plays a huge role in forest fires. In the eastern U.S., where there's a fair amount of rainfall, large-scale forest fires are very rare. Smaller fires can and do occur, but you don't get the enormous wildfires that threaten huge areas. Those are primarily a Western phenomenon, where drier climates lead to much better conditions for fires to spread.

So, before lighting the fire, ask your DM for the following:
1) Average annual rainfall of the area.
2) The amount of time since the last significant rainstorm and, if possible, the depth of the water table.
3) The direction of the wind. An often overlooked detail, but one that a vindictive DM can put to good use if you don't ask first.
3) A detailed description of the forest, including dominant tree species, spacing, and age distribution. The condition of the understory is particularly important. (And don't let him be vague about it. The little things make all the difference.:smallbiggrin:)

Most importantly, don't tell him why you're asking this. But do enough research that you know how all these factors affect forest fires, and once he's answered your questions, then you can light the fire and proceed to tell him exactly how it will spread. He'll love you for doing all the research yourself. Really. :smallbiggrin:

On a serious note, as has been mentioned, forest fires are surprisingly hard to start, but potentially incredibly destructive and impossible to control. The odds of it doing exactly what you want it to are almost vanishingly slim. Of course, if your DM doesn't know too much about forest fires, or just likes the idea of it, it may work. This is a game, after all.

Driderman
2007-10-07, 11:13 AM
Well if you're going to make a forest fire and aim at controlling it as to not kill the entire party with it as well as your enemies, you'll have to make a fire belt of some kind. It's a tough job, but clearing a ring of burnable materials so the fire won't spread out of control should do the trick. Of course, you may not have the luxury of time that is required for such a task. Also, your enemies might realise what you're up to and simply go around the Zone Of Death you've devised

Alex12
2007-10-07, 11:32 AM
Okay. My initial plan for burning the forest down doesn't look like it'll work. Oh, well, there are other ways to eliminate large numbers of enemies fairly quickly. I'll figure something out. Thanks for the input, people.:smallsmile: