Can you target yourself with a cone-effect spell

[Hiro Quester]

Dread witch can empower their spells (increase CL) when exposed to a fear effect, even if you save against it.

One of their best fear effect is Fear (straight to panicked). Cone shaped burst. If you could target yourself as well as Bad Guys, its a buff for you and debuff for them at the same time.

IN PH (p.175) it says that a cone shoots away from you in a quarter circle, "It starts from any corner of your square, and widens as it goes."

Can you target yourself with that fear effect, while also aiming it at the Bad Guys?

That is, can you make it start in the corner farthest from the bad guys, and include your own square, like taking a selfie?

[MisterKaws]

You should be, just like a Dragon should be able to stretch its neck and target itself with a breath, or a Warlock shooting an Eldritch Cone with the hands facing their own face, that sort of thing.

It's just no one usually uses that ability.

Actually, maybe we should optimize a Dragonfire Adept Phoelarch or something. Easiest self-healing outside of just having Regeneration.

[Mr Adventurer]

If the cone has to shoot away from you, then it can't shoot toward you.

[Necroticplague]

IN PH (p.175) it says that a cone shoots away from you in a quarter circle, "It starts from any corner of your square, and widens as it goes."

Can you target yourself with that fear effect, while also aiming it at the Bad Guys?

That is, can you make it start in the corner farthest from the bad guys, and include your own square, like taking a selfie?

The bolded is why the answer is 'no'. Cones can only shoot away from you, never towards you. Thus, you can't hit yourself with it.

[Calthropstu]

If the cone has to shoot away from you, then it can't shoot toward you.

Agreed. It is literally raw. Of course, any gm can house rule it, but raw says away.

[Hiro Quester]

Obviously this is a DM rule situation.

My best argument to the DM would be that it could shoot away from you, but from the corner of your square furthest from the direction in which you want it to go away from you. So it goes away from you. but includes you in its effect.

A relative of the same question: could a caster heal himself by shapechanging into a flesh golem and hitting himself with his own lightning bolt? It doesn't seem like that should be impossible.

[TheCount]

Would deceptive spell from cityscape work? or it just makes it SEEM that it is coming from somewhere else?

[Malphegor]

Would deceptive spell from cityscape work? or it just makes it SEEM that it is coming from somewhere else?

I think mechanically it just seems like it's coming from somewhere else, since it doesn't affect things like cover afaik.

[Necroticplague]

Obviously this is a DM rule situation.

My best argument to the DM would be that it could shoot away from you, but from the corner of your square furthest from the direction in which you want it to go away from you. So it goes away from you. but includes you in its effect.
That's not 'away from you'. That's towards you from a corner. You don't have any choice of direction once you select a corner to act as the origin. I'm not sure how this is ambiguous enough to be a DM rule scenario.


A relative of the same question: could a caster heal himself by shapechanging into a flesh golem and hitting himself with his own lightning bolt? It doesn't seem like that should be impossible.
Yes. Shapechange gives EX abilities, which would include the golem's Immunity to Magic ability, which includes healing from magical lightning.

[Hiro Quester]

Yes. Shapechange gives EX abilities, which would include the golem's Immunity to Magic ability, which includes healing from magical lightning.

The question is could you target yourself with a line spell like lightning bolt?

It seems like you should be able to do so (common sense), but the rules for a line spell say similar "away from you" in a line starting from any corner of your square.

Rules trump common sense here too, I guess?

[Necroticplague]

The question is could you target yourself with a line spell like lightning bolt? No, for the same reason you can't smack yourself with a cone.

It seems like you should be able to do so (common sense)
How does common sense in any way imply this, given how the situation is far beyond anything anybody could have ever experienced?

but the rules for a line spell say similar "away from you" in a line starting from any corner of your square. Exactly, just like a cone. Can't hit yourself with them. If you wanna smack yourself with your spells, Sculpt it into a less clunky shape.

Rules trump common sense here too, I guess?
You ask a rules-based question, and then dismiss a rules based answer? If you feel it shatters your fragile verisimilitude, I have never made mention one way or the other of houseruling against or for it. First, attempt to know what the rules are, then decide if you want to follow them. Don't confuse the two processes.

[TheCount]

Delayed spell might work, if you can time it right

[Hiro Quester]

.

You ask a rules-based question, and then dismiss a rules based answer? If you feel it shatters your fragile verisimilitude, I have never made mention one way or the other of houseruling against or for it. First, attempt to know what the rules are, then decide if you want to follow them. Don't confuse the two processes.

I did it ran (Edit: I did not mean) to imply dismissal of your clear statement of the rule. Apologies if I offended.

I just meant that this is one of the many places in the game where common sense, physics, how it would work in reality, etc. do not apply, because that is not how the rules work.

[Calthropstu]

I did it ran to imply dismissal of your clear statement of the rule. Apologies if I offended.

I just meant that this is one of the many places in the game where common sense, physics, how it would work in reality, etc. do not apply, because that is not how the rules work.

Actually, if you tried to target yourself with a cone, you'd just blast yourself and no one else. It'd be like someone standing in front of the nozzle of a flame thrower. If we used physics, if you targeted yourself with the cone power, you would be the ONLY affected target.

So yeah.

[Telok]

Works if you're large and nailed to the battlemat. Start the cone from one of the corners in the center intersection, it's both away and through you.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#aimingASpell) has two relevant snippets:


Cone, Cylinder, Line, or Sphere
Most spells that affect an area have a particular shape, such as a cone, cylinder, line, or sphere.

A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won’t go around corners.

Rules Compendium p119 has this to say about non-spell cones:


TARGETING SPECIAL ABILITIES
An ability’s descriptive text describes how the ability
functions, and targeting a special ability that is an attack
works like targeting for the attack that the ability most
closely resembles. A cone-shaped burst works just like
a spell’s cone-shaped burst, while a hurled object works
like a ranged attack. Many special abilities augment another
sort of action as well.

Rules Compendium also says this about Divination spells:


....Many divination
spells have cone-shaped areas. These move with you and
extend in the direction you look. The cone defines the area
that you can sweep each round.

The SRD has the following to say about a dragon's breath attack:


Breath Weapon (Su)
Using a breath weapon is a standard action. Once a dragon breathes, it can’t breathe again until 1d4 rounds later. If a dragon has more than one type of breath weapon, it still can breathe only once every 1d4 rounds. A blast from a breath weapon always starts at any intersection adjacent to the dragon and extends in a direction of the dragon’s choice, with an area as noted on the table below.

Therefore,

1. A dragon's cone-shaped breath attack can start in a corner of a square it occupies and go in a direction that affects the space it occupies, thus affecting itself. (SRD on dragon breath attacks)
2. Cone-shaped special abilities work the same as spells. (Rules Compendium on targeting special abilities)
3. Divination spells are specifically limited to the direction the character is looking. (Rules Compendium on targeting divinations)

You can definitely look at yourself, and can thus affect yourself with the cone effect of a divination spell.
A dragon can definitely turn its head to hit its own occupied space with its own breath attack.
Since the dragon's cone-shaped breath works the same way as a cone-shaped spell as far as targeting goes, you can absolutely aim a cone-shaped spell so that it affects your own occupied space.

I believe the confusion comes from "A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you," which appears to be intended to indicate that the point of origin must start near you, not anywhere in the spell's range like other spell shapes. The RAW has clear precedent for affecting yourself with a cone-shaped spell to be possible within the game's mechanics.

[Kish]

I did it ran to imply dismissal of your clear statement of the rule. Apologies if I offended.

I just meant that this is one of the many places in the game where common sense, physics, how it would work in reality, etc. do not apply, because that is not how the rules work.
"Common sense" amounts to "the way I want it to be" here.

Physics does not dictate that a spell has to be able to include the caster, because physics doesn't say anything about spells. Physics does, however, dictate that something that goes in a straight line away from you and does not turn in any way will not hit you. Funny how that works...

"How it would work in reality"=see "Common sense," but even more overtly.

[Necroticplague]

[text references cut to save space]
Therefore,

1. A dragon's cone-shaped breath attack can start in a corner of a square it occupies and go in a direction that affects the space it occupies, thus affecting itself. (SRD on dragon breath attacks)
Which, due to a case of specific vs. general, doesn't necessarily indicate that the same is true of all breath attacks. The dragon's breath attack has a specific rule (can breath in any direction) doesn't necessarily indicate that all breath weapons have that property.

3. Divination spells are specifically limited to the direction the character is looking. (Rules Compendium on targeting divinations)So characters with 360 degree visions actually have radius of detect magic instead of cones?


A dragon can definitely turn its head to hit its own occupied space with its own breath attack.
Since the dragon's cone-shaped breath works the same way as a cone-shaped spell as far as targeting goes, you can absolutely aim a cone-shaped spell so that it affects your own occupied space.That's not how induction works. You can't go from specific examples to extrapolate about the generalities. Otherwise, all cats would be black, because my cat is black.


I believe the confusion comes from "A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you," which appears to be intended to indicate that the point of origin must start near you, not anywhere in the spell's range like other spell shapes. The RAW has clear precedent for affecting yourself with a cone-shaped spell to be possible within the game's mechanics.
RAW is clear that SOME cone-shaped breath attacks can be used to hit the one using it, just like it's clear that SOME feats can be got without the prerequisites, but that doesn't mean the prerequisite line is useless.

[Hiro Quester]

I do think generalizing from a dragon’s breath attack might be stretching things a little.

However, the point about divination spells is somewhat relevant. I have used detect magic to look at my own character’s gear. So there is at least some precedent (in our game) for a cone shaped spell effect including your own square, by looking at yourself.

However, there is a difference between looking at your feet and looking at your own eyes. One could imagine a cone shaped spell as doing the equivalent of looking at your own eyeball; that is, doing something impossible.

One could also imagine a cone shaped spell as emanating from your hand and gesture, in which case it would be as difficult as pointing at yourself, not particularly difficult at all.

This is nitpicking and rules lawyering a little (that’s what we seem to do here :smallbiggrin:)

But it doesn’t seem completely unreasonable to interpret the requirement that the spell move away from you as requiring it simply to start in a corner of your square not somewhere else.

It’s not completely reasonable either, though. I could see a generous DM allowing it, and a reasonable DM saying no.

[Ramza00]

I seem to recall a magic item that whenever you cast a buff on an ally you get it, or vice versa. The duration is half. I thought it was PHB2 or a later book but now I can't find it simply.

[Troacctid]

Perhaps there is a distinction to be drawn between corner of your square and corner of your space, which would allow only Large or larger creatures to include themselves.

[Jay R]

"Away from you" is not "towards you", and no amount of discussion can change that.


A relative of the same question: could a caster heal himself by shapechanging into a flesh golem and hitting himself with his own lightning bolt? It doesn't seem like that should be impossible.

Not in 3.5. In earlier versions of D&D, lightning spells could bounce. You would just fire the lightning straight at a cliff face, and it would boomerang into you.

Chain lightning would work, if you have a chump within 30 feet of you to catch it first.

[NiinKaunis]

"Away from you" is not "towards you", and no amount of discussion can change that.

Just my five cents, can't you still fire the cone just nearly towards you, so direction is off you, but because it is a cone, it still hits you?
In my opinion, this is still clearly "away from you", otherwise if you can't relatively freely pick the direction of the cone, you could only fire it in 1 direction from any corner of a square.

[Telok]

Ah, the tyranny of the battle mat and trying to put everything in boxes.

The cones are generally thought to originate from somewhere around hand/torso/head height right? Lay down and blast out across your legs. Make sure to catch your feet in the cone.

You can reach into adjacent squares to attack and pick things up. Stick one arm (or a leg, but be sure to have ranks in balance) into the next square and blast away. Sure, you're only partially in it and probably getting a bonus to your save. But you were going to willingly fail the save anyways, right?

[ThatMoonGuy]

This kind of discussion is why I love and hate 3.5e. Trying to figure out a way to shoot a debuff spell at yourself just to get a bonus to it is such a ridiculous and awesome idea.

As for the lying idea, I don't think prone creatures occupy more squares than standing creatures so going by that, it wouldn't make much of anything. If it did, you could just put your hand in front of the ray. Would that mean it's still moving away from you? I mean, your hand is you, right? If so, then that's illegal but it also sounds absurd. If you're going with such reading you might as well just let the guy shoot himself since that's stretching rules already.

[NiinKaunis]

Just to clarify, wouldn't this definitely be "shooting away from you", while also hitting yourself with the cone?
https://i.imgur.com/NJKyQrd.png

[Jay R]

I assume that the center of the cone is on a line directly away from your center. That seems the most clear intent of the rule. "Away from you" is not "towards you".

If you want to convince me that the rules are intended to let your character be caught in her own cone, and that therefore you can be hit by something traveling away from you, you need to find some example, somewhere in all the books, of somebody getting caught in her own cone, or some other equivalent notion.

Otherwise, I will have to conclude that "away from you" is not "towards you".

[NiinKaunis]

I assume that the center of the cone is on a line directly away from your center. That seems the most clear intent of the rule. "Away from you" is not "towards you".

That would mean you can only target 4 distinct directions with a cone spell, since it has to originate from a corner of your square. You could only fire it directly North-East from the upper right corner, Sout-East from the lower right corner, etc. There is no other line that passes your center and the corner where the spell originates. And sure, that is a plausible ruling too.

[Kish]

Just to clarify, wouldn't this definitely be "shooting away from you", while also hitting yourself with the cone?
https://i.imgur.com/NJKyQrd.png
As Jay R said, no, that would be illegal. It's not actually a matter of "you get to draw on the battlemap"--it's a matter of "you get to pick which direction you're shooting in." Northeast? Fine, then it's coming from the northeast corner of your square(s). Southeast? Fine, then it's coming from the southeast corner of your square(s).

[Ramza00]

Just to clarify, wouldn't this definitely be "shooting away from you", while also hitting yourself with the cone?
https://i.imgur.com/NJKyQrd.png

For simplicity sake the rules do not want to allow users that choice. Too much complexity for a war game that is supposed to be complicated but also allow flow where combat does not get bogged down with details.

And this is prior to using your own cones to buff yourself.

[Calthropstu]

I have never been so glad to play pathfinder as I do right now.

[Ramza00]

I have never been so glad to play pathfinder as I do right now.

How so? Pathfinder will really not save you, it has its own craziness. Just close your eyes and think of England for if you do you can ignore the BS that sometimes 3.5 or Pathfinder people want to get into.

[Jay R]

If the cone hits you, coming from any location, then the direct line of the center of the cone is within 30 degrees of aimed straight at you, and more than 150 degrees away from directly away from you. That's not "away from you". It just isn't.

Again, if you want to show that the rules intend for you to be able to hit yourself with your own cone, show some example within the rules of somebody considering it, or doing it, or warning you about the danger of it, or any other way to imply that it could happen.

[Calthropstu]

How so? Pathfinder will really not save you, it has its own craziness. Just close your eyes and think of England for if you do you can ignore the BS that sometimes 3.5 or Pathfinder people want to get into.

PF craziness never really gets to the same level 3.5 does. I won't deny it exists, but it is definitely of a much lower level. Generally because the support for PF has always been better than the minimal support that 3.5 had. But even so, they also have fairly succinct targeting rules with detailed examples of how templates may be placed. And, the fact that they print targetting templates helps tremendously. In this matter, PF is by far more precise.

[ayvango]

Northeast? Fine, then it's coming from the northeast corner of your square(s). Southeast? Fine, then it's coming from the southeast corner of your square(s).
I'd like to emit cone to northeast from my southeast corner, because northeast corner is blocked with a cover. Choosing appropriate corner is a valuable part of game related to calculating cover.

[Telok]

How about the mounted combat rules? You share your mounts space, but you also either have a distinct square of 'you' (aim the cone from one of 'your' corners to cross the mount whose space you share) or 'away from you' can just start at the center (where it's definitely away from your center of mass but it passes through some of that mass). It might get costly if you have to keep buying mounts though.

Metamagic might help. Delay Spell could be a nuisance if enemies move too much, but it gives you time to move into the AoE. Repeat Spell has posibilities, you can at least be there for the second instance. Are there any metamagics that move the origin point of a spell?

Is there any way to offload the casting to a familiar or something?

[Mr Adventurer]

Project Image comes to mind

[Telonius]

The bolded is why the answer is 'no'. Cones can only shoot away from you, never towards you. Thus, you can't hit yourself with it.

You could probably work out some shenanigans with a set of Ring Gates. "A spellcaster could even cast a spell through a ring gate," so if you shoot the spell through the one and aim the other towards yourself...

[ayvango]

You could probably work out some shenanigans with a set of Ring Gates. "A spellcaster could even cast a spell through a ring gate," so if you shoot the spell through the one and aim the other towards yourself...
Wizard could even hit himself multiple times with single lightning bolt

[Kish]

I'd like to emit cone to northeast from my southeast corner, because northeast corner is blocked with a cover.

And I'd like a pony.

Choosing appropriate corner is a valuable part of game related to calculating cover.
Whatever game you're talking about, I don't think it's D&D. You choose a corner and it goes away from you--not "bends back toward you." If the corner you've chosen means that "away from you" is directly into a wall--you should probably choose more carefully next time, or do something else if you're in a position where a cone shooting away from you won't help.

[Segev]

I have never been so glad to play pathfinder as I do right now.

Now I'm curious: how is PF's answer to this thread's topic question different from 3.5's?

[Calthropstu]

Now I'm curious: how is PF's answer to this thread's topic question different from 3.5's?

It has detailed images showing legal applications of a template. You can fire it either from a corner, in which case the corner template is used or from a side of your square in which case a different template is used. The templates cannot affect your square because there are no legal slots for the templates which hit your square.

[zergling.exe]

It has detailed images showing legal applications of a template. You can fire it either from a corner, in which case the corner template is used or from a side of your square in which case a different template is used. The templates cannot affect your square because there are no legal slots for the templates which hit your square.

3.5 has a similar guide on page 305 of the DMG.

[Jay R]

Now I'm curious: how is PF's answer to this thread's topic question different from 3.5's?

It isn't. It's the same answer you get if you aren't trying to twist the rules to make "away from you" point towards you.

[Calthropstu]

It isn't. It's the same answer you get if you aren't trying to twist the rules to make "away from you" point towards you.

lol, nice answer. I agree wholeheartedly, and as a gm I would shut down these shenanigans quickly.

However, the pf templates do make this a much simpler argument.

[Mr Adventurer]

lol, nice answer. I agree wholeheartedly, and as a gm I would shut down these shenanigans quickly.

However, the pf templates do make this a much simpler argument.

As already mentioned, there were the 3.5 DMG ones before Pathfinder came out.