StarCraft Terrans vs. Babylon 5 Earth Alliance

[Winterwind]

Seeing all these superpowered forces in the Versus-threads, with galaxy-spanning empires and superweapons obliterating entire systems at once, I thought we could use a battle on a smaller scale for a change.

Spontaneously, I thought of these two forces: The Terran Confederation*1 from StarCraft, and the Earth Alliance from Babylon 5. Both possess a relatively small number of systems with a few colonies, most of them still on an early stage of development. Both have a comparatively strong military, including capital ships of a huge scale (I don't know how large battlecruisers are, exactly, I know that Omega-class destroyers, the Earth Alliance's largest capital ships which one sees most often during the series are supposed to be almost 2 kilometres long). None have too fancy technologies, though, for instance there are no defensive shields to speak of. Interestingly, both also have access to highly trained special ops forces with powerful telepathic abilities (Ghosts and Psi Corps, respectively).

Let's assume a full-scale war. So, let's hear it, who do you think will take this home?

*1 If you prefer, take the Terran Dominion at any future point instead.

[Swordguy]

Seeing all these superpowered forces in the Versus-threads, with galaxy-spanning empires and superweapons obliterating entire systems at once, I thought we could use a battle on a smaller scale for a change.

Spontaneously, I thought of these two forces: The Terran Confederation*1 from StarCraft, and the Earth Alliance from Babylon 5. Both possess a relatively small number of systems with a few colonies, most of them still on an early stage of development. Both have a comparatively strong military, including capital ships of a huge scale (I don't know how large battlecruisers are, exactly, I know that Omega-class destroyers, the Earth Alliance's largest capital ships which one sees most often during the series are supposed to be almost 2 kilometres long). None have too fancy technologies, though, for instance there are no defensive shields to speak of. Interestingly, both also have access to highly trained special ops forces with powerful telepathic abilities (Ghosts and Psi Corps, respectively).

Let's assume a full-scale war. So, let's hear it, who do you think will take this home?

*1 If you prefer, take the Terran Dominion at any future point instead.

I don't know Starcraft, but I CAN tell you that you need to specify a date for the EA. A matter of 5 years seperates them from relatively crappy Hyperions and Artemis CAs to getting their hands on Warlocks and White Stars. Big, big difference...

[Winterwind]

I don't know Starcraft, but I CAN tell you that you need to specify a date for the EA. A matter of 5 years seperates them from relatively crappy Hyperions and Artemis CAs to getting their hands on Warlocks and White Stars. Big, big difference...Good point. I'd say let's assume 2259 (second season): The civil war has not broken out yet, Clark has taken control, so internal security and militarisation is tight and Psi Corps is powerful, yet they have no access to Interstellar Alliance or Shadow technology yet, limiting this to what the Earth Alliance had at their disposal throughout most of the show, without alien aid.

[factotum]

I personally believe the Yamato Cannon carried by Starcraft Terran Battlecruisers would probably blow an Omega in half...we certainly see one doing that to another Battlecruiser in one of the cut-scenes from the game. However, it's extremely difficult to judge the power of the weapon because we never see it used against a target whose robustness we can measure--it's always possible (though unlikely, IMHO) that the battlecruiser has considerably weaker armour than an Omega has.

In any case, if both classes of ships are similarly armoured, the battlecruiser wins because we know the Yamato Cannon can blow right through that level of armour, whereas an Omega can't instantly destroy another Omega with a single shot and therefore can't do that to a battlecruiser either.

Ground forces are even harder to judge, because we barely saw them in B5 and don't really know what their capabilities are. The heavy armour worn by Marines and Firebats would seem to indicate they'd be tougher in combat than B5 troops, though.

[Winterwind]

I would expect battlecruisers to win against Omega destroyers as well. They are definitely well armoured, given the punishment they take when they assault Earth, but the Yamato would probably tear them apart.
Now the Starfuries, on the other hand, are a different matter. They are vastly more manouverable than Wraiths and pack a lot more punch, too - when a couple of them hit the right side of a Centauri battlecruiser, itself of comparable size to the capital ships in question, it threw the entire ship into a spinning motion. I could well imagine a squadron of these tearing a Terran battlecruiser to shreds.

As for the ground forces, yes, Marines would be greatly superior to ordinary ground troops. I don't think we have ever seen what the Babylon 5 universe uses in terms of tanks; they seem to rely quite a bit on air support via Thunderbolts and use large-sized stationary defenses.

I wonder which role the respective telepaths of the two universes would do. I strongly suspect that Psi Corps would be superior to the Ghosts - they don't seem to be that few in numbers and have been shown being capable of quite a few tricks I doubt a Ghost would be able to duplicate.

[Swordguy]

As for the ground forces, yes, Marines would be greatly superior to ordinary ground troops. I don't think we have ever seen what the Babylon 5 universe uses in terms of tanks; they seem to rely quite a bit on air support via Thunderbolts and use large-sized stationary defenses.


What sources are allowed in referencing EA material? The GROPOS system, for example, has a lot more detail than the show, and it's all approved by JMS. What about the various systems by Mongoose or AOG (also all JMS-certified)? Or is it just on-screen evidence?

The other question is how to reconcile the fact that the B5 TV show is limited by budget and reality (so the people can't be 8' tall and hugely muscular) and Starcraft is limited only by what someone can code.

That said, I'd say it's probably going to be more or less a draw. Both sides are strong in different areas, and those areas are sufficient by themselves cripple their opponent, respectively.

[BRC]

What sources are allowed in referencing EA material? The GROPOS system, for example, has a lot more detail than the show, and it's all approved by JMS. What about the various systems by Mongoose or AOG (also all JMS-certified)? Or is it just on-screen evidence?

The other question is how to reconcile the fact that the B5 TV show is limited by budget and reality (so the people can't be 8' tall and hugely muscular) and Starcraft is limited only by what someone can code.

That said, I'd say it's probably going to be more or less a draw. Both sides are strong in different areas, and those areas are sufficient by themselves cripple their opponent, respectively.

No starcraft terrans are 8 ft tall and hugely muscular, the marines are wearing powered armor, and not your nifty W40k space marine armor, more like a glorified enviroment suit/spacesuit with some armored plates stuck on. The idea is that marine armor is immune to normal small arms which is why Marines use gauss rifles which fire armor-peircing spikes.
But there is no evidence that without that armor a marine is any physically tougher then a B5 Earth Alliance solider, as a matter a fact, though I don't know anything about B5, I don't think they use powered armor, so their troops would proably be better physically trained in terms of strength, since they don't have the armors servo's to rely on.

However, the SC marines Do have this armor and will be wearing it during the battle.

[Executor]

On the ground: The Confederacy without any question. Heavily armoured Marines and Firebats, Goliath combat walkers, Siege Tanks. We haven't seen a single thing in the whole length of Babylon 5 that compares to the Confederacy on the ground. And sure, the Earth Alliance may have PPGs, but Terran Marines get the C-14 Impaler gauss rifles. What's that you say? The C-14 uses magnetic coiling to accelerate an 8mm depleted uranium spike at hypersonic speeds :belkar: You do not want to get hit by a Gauss gun

In space: I can't really tell for sure. I'm leaning towards the Earth Alliance since they seem to have a more well-rounded space force. Whereas the Terrans it's just "Battleships and fighters" there's no cruisers, destroyers, frigates, no middle ground.

[Winterwind]

What sources are allowed in referencing EA material? The GROPOS system, for example, has a lot more detail than the show, and it's all approved by JMS. What about the various systems by Mongoose or AOG (also all JMS-certified)? Or is it just on-screen evidence?Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with those. But I suppose it would be interesting to hear what the EA can field, so let's hear it what they got.


The other question is how to reconcile the fact that the B5 TV show is limited by budget and reality (so the people can't be 8' tall and hugely muscular) and Starcraft is limited only by what someone can code.What do you mean? Do you think if not for budget restraints EA ground troops wouldn't have been ordinary humans? I don't recall anything that would suggest that, I think those would have been normal people anyway.


That said, I'd say it's probably going to be more or less a draw. Both sides are strong in different areas, and those areas are sufficient by themselves cripple their opponent, respectively.Quite possible.


On the ground: The Confederacy without any question. Heavily armoured Marines and Firebats, Goliath combat walkers, Siege Tanks. We haven't seen a single thing in the whole length of Babylon 5 that compares to the Confederacy on the ground. And sure, the Earth Alliance may have PPGs, but Terran Marines get the C-14 Impaler gauss rifles. What's that you say? The C-14 uses magnetic coiling to accelerate an 8mm depleted uranium spike at hypersonic speeds :belkar: You do not want to get hit by a Gauss gunI doubt the Earth Alliance would use PPGs in ground combat. As far as I know, a PPG fires heated plasma, which can hurt humans, but can't breach a ship's outer hull, which is why they are used on ships and stations so that there is no risk to shoot a hole in the hull in a gunfight. That's important when fighting in space, but exactly what you wouldn't want in ground combat, especially not when fighting people in powered armour.


In space: I can't really tell for sure. I'm leaning towards the Earth Alliance since they seem to have a more well-rounded space force. Whereas the Terrans it's just "Battleships and fighters" there's no cruisers, destroyers, frigates, no middle ground.Yes; at least I don't recall ever hearing about something in between either, not even in the novels.

[Fan]

Aha i have something to say about the space battle in sc2 they introduece the viking basicly a giant transformer that shoots laser cannons thaht are based off of reactions simmiar to the suns own reaction and check this bad boy out at this link http://www.starcraft2.com/features/terran/thor.xml

[Swordguy]

What do you mean? Do you think if not for budget restraints EA ground troops wouldn't have been ordinary humans? I don't recall anything that would suggest that, I think those would have been normal people anyway.


No, I'm saying that the creators of a video game have more leeway to break the rules of reality/physics than the SFX guys on a TV show. The amount of leeway is defined not by the video game (which is similar to a book in that it has basically infinite technology and resources as long as you care to code/write it), but by the technology level and SFX budget of the TV show.


Example: Starship Troopers. In the book, they were described as having massive flying/long-jumping power armor that was basically impervious to small arms. In the movie, they got crappy plastic Klingon-reject armor that protected only in the sense that it was better than tissue paper. The reason (as discussed on the DVD) was the SFX budget and tech level - they couldn't make the power armor onscreen for cheap enough to be worthwhile. Therefore, in a "who would win" discussion, the book troopers ALWAYS beat the movie troopers, because they aren't constrained by any limits.

That's why I wanted to know if we could pull on stuff outside the silver screen - it levels the playing field somewhat.

(The bit about 8' tall humans was a dig at Games Workshop Space Marines - there's been several attempts to make fan movies (well, up until GW got stupid about them), and the common complaint was that nobody could do a "Space Marine Movie" because nobody could do the FX to make an actor look like that. )

[Swordguy]

Aha i have something to say about the space battle in sc2 they introduece the viking basicly a giant transformer that shoots laser cannons thaht are based off of reactions simmiar to the suns own reaction and check this bad boy out at this link http://www.starcraft2.com/features/terran/thor.xml


This link is a PERFECT example of what I'm talking about. The Mech shown, while cool, would be physically impossible to build as a set-piece on a TV show such as B5 (which simply didn't have the CGI resources) as a physical prop OR as CGI. CGI is for budgetary reasons, and it literally can't be built as a prop - watching the GIFs of it in action shows that it violates Conservation of Mass (in that it sprouts extra guns and stuff from area that are occupied by other stuff), to say nothing of actually getting it to move.

Yet in a video game, it's obviously trivial to have one, or lots, of them. The EA COULD have stuff like this for all we know - but if we're forced into using only stuff from the TV show, there's no way to know. Absence of evidence and all that.

[Fan]

Ah yes but star craft only has stuff like that because of it i mean look at the firebats even the weight on their suits comes in at about 300 pounds with the weapons and stuff and check out the banshee in the same link

[BRC]

This link is a PERFECT example of what I'm talking about. The Mech shown, while cool, would be physically impossible to build as a set-piece on a TV show such as B5 (which simply didn't have the CGI resources) as a physical prop OR as CGI. CGI is for budgetary reasons, and it literally can't be built as a prop - watching the GIFs of it in action shows that it violates Conservation of Mass (in that it sprouts extra guns and stuff from area that are occupied by other stuff), to say nothing of actually getting it to move.

Yet in a video game, it's obviously trivial to have one, or lots, of them. The EA COULD have stuff like this for all we know - but if we're forced into using only stuff from the TV show, there's no way to know. Absence of evidence and all that.

While your point is valid, the thing about the Viking is moot since its specified these are SC1 terrans, so no vikings no banshees no reapers.
As for your general point, it invalidates the entire discussion, so were going to have to ignore it

[Fan]

I'm sorry but i thought we were doing the most recent verisons of both so i naturally looked at the sc2 stuff and brought it up due to the fact that the terrans were the worst of the races in sc1 they were getting eaten by the zerg and vaporized by the protoss so thats why i assumed

[Winterwind]

@Swordguy: Ah, okay, I see what you mean.
Yes, feel free to include any books, novels or further official material you like.
Same goes for StarCraft, of course (gameplay mechanics can, of course, be taken only with a grain of salt, since they distort the "reality" massively for balance sake).

EDIT: I think I should clarify: In my opening post I stated Terran Confederacy or Terran Dominion because the Confederacy didn't have, for example, Valkyries, which could make a nice contribution against the fighter intensive fleets of the Earth Alliance. On the other hand, the Terrans got Valkyries only after being completely wrecked by the Zerg invasion, civil war and the UED's short-lived usurpation, thus greatly reducing their capacities. Given we have little info about what happened later on, much less about how the StarCraft2 units will perform, I think we should better exclude them, but if someone thinks they would make things more interesting, please go on.

[Fan]

Yes but their is sc2 novels coming out in say 3to 5 months and i have read the online spoiler versions so if they get to use books and other things why cant I?:smallconfused:

[BRC]

Yes but their is sc2 novels coming out in say 3to 5 months and i have read the online spoiler versions so if they get to use books and other things why cant I?:smallconfused:
Once again the point is moot, he specified we were talking about the confederacy, so only SC1 things count.

[Fan]

please see winterwinds comment about sc2 in his edited post he said we may use sc2 units if it makes it more interesting for the arguement so haha I'am victourious:smallamused:

[warty goblin]

Source arguments aside, I think the following argument can be made for the Omega Destroyers in space vs. battlecruisers, and that is maneuverability. Terran BCs are hidiously slow moving and have pretty poor turning capability and I don't think that they engage from particurly long range (I'm going off of the game here, I don't know the fluff that well). Omega destroyers on the other and are reasonably nimble and have pretty decent long range weapons- very powerful long range weapons. They also are fully equiped for fighting in Newtonian physics space, whereas in order to stop a BC has to turn around, which it doesn't do very fast, leaving it vulnerable to being picked apart. Given engine placement, I'm not even sure that a BC could actually move up and down.

If these arguments hold true (and I'm not sure that they do, since I'm not entirely sure of the capabilities of BCs) I'd have to give the advantage to the EA, simply because their ships are more maneuverable and pack pretty good firepower- and their fighters totally dominate wraiths.

On the ground I'm not sure since I don't know about EA ground forces, but their fighter superiority should allow them to basically dictate the terms of any serious fight.

[Tor the Fallen]

I'm not sure if this is a point for or against starcraft, but marines can shoot down capital ships.

[Winterwind]

If these arguments hold true (and I'm not sure that they do, since I'm not entirely sure of the capabilities of BCs) I'd have to give the advantage to the EA, simply because their ships are more maneuverable and pack pretty good firepower- and their fighters totally dominate wraiths.The only trouble about the wraiths could be their cloaking fields, otherwise I agree, they don't stand a chance against Starfuries. Now the question is, could the Earth Alliance counteract the cloaking fields somehow?
Regarding the battlecruisers, yes, Omega destroyers appear to be quite a bit more agile. Their weapons are powerful, too, but they likely don't measure up to the Yamato. They can take severe hits - the defensive missile platforms of Earth could have collectively leveled half of the planet's surface, so they have to pack quite a punch, yet the Agamemnon survived both being hit by some of these missiles and flying right through the explosion of one of these platforms (one astoundingly blood-stirring moment, I might add), albeit being severly damaged by that. Still, it seems doubtful whether they would hold up so well against a focussed thermonuclear blast.


On the ground I'm not sure since I don't know about EA ground forces, but their fighter superiority should allow them to basically dictate the terms of any serious fight.It would be very helpful, at any rate. Of course, the Terrans have their Goliaths, which can shoot at an impressive range; but so can Thunderbolts.


I'm not sure if this is a point for or against starcraft, but marines can shoot down capital ships.Do you think they can do so outside of gameplay as well, in cutscenes or so? Because, battlecruisers are kilometre long behemoths, equipped with tons of armament, fighter bays and thick armour. Somehow, I doubt whether it could happen outside of gameplay (to reiterate my favorite argument why gameplay mechanics have to be taken with a grain of salt, gameplay mechanics also imply that a battlecruiser is about six time the size of a marine and that air/space superiority fighters move hardly faster than infantry).

[Swordguy]

The only trouble about the wraiths could be their cloaking fields, otherwise I agree, they don't stand a chance against Starfuries. Now the question is, could the Earth Alliance counteract the cloaking fields somehow?


PsiCorps have been used in B5 to locate "stealthed" ships. Aim the guns toward the concentration of minds...



It would be very helpful, at any rate. Of course, the Terrans have their Goliaths, which can shoot at an impressive range; but so can Thunderbolts.


T-Bolts, while awesome, aren't readily available in 2259. They're out there, but in strictly limited quantities.

All EA fighters CAN carry missiles, which pack roughly 1/2 the power of one of the heavy laser hits from an Omega. Those are non-nuclear missiles, btw. And don't forget about the EA fighter carrier. 144 Starfuries is dammed impressive (Omega carries 24, Hyperion carries 6, B5 Station carries 48).

[warty goblin]

The only trouble about the wraiths could be their cloaking fields, otherwise I agree, they don't stand a chance against Starfuries. Now the question is, could the Earth Alliance counteract the cloaking fields somehow?
Regarding the battlecruisers, yes, Omega destroyers appear to be quite a bit more agile. Their weapons are powerful, too, but they likely don't measure up to the Yamato. They can take severe hits - the defensive missile platforms of Earth could have collectively leveled half of the planet's surface, so they have to pack quite a punch, yet the Agamemnon survived both being hit by some of these missiles and flying right through the explosion of one of these platforms (one astoundingly blood-stirring moment, I might add), albeit being severly damaged by that. Still, it seems doubtful whether they would hold up so well against a focussed thermonuclear blast.



I completely agree that an Omega would probably be destroyed by the Yamato gun- if it could hit. The Yamato is forward mounted right? As long as the Omega could avoid a head to head firing match and avoid the blast, I'd give it a slight advantage. If the Omega could manage to disable or destroy a BC's engines (which would be an easy objective for Starfuries) than it would be free to pick apart a BC at leasure and from extreme range.

B5- where fighters do it from behind.

[hanzo66]

I'm sorry but i thought we were doing the most recent verisons of both so i naturally looked at the sc2 stuff and brought it up due to the fact that the terrans were the worst of the races in sc1 they were getting eaten by the zerg and vaporized by the protoss so thats why i assumed

They're talking of the Confederacy. You're thinking of the Dominion.

Still, I'm not sure how Dominion-age Technology would fare against the EA.

[Talkkno]

From Starcraft:Uprising

"The Hyperion was just now coming to a complete stop.
The Norad II loomed before them, a hulking technological
giant. The general knew that the ship itself could not
fire at them sideways from its current position, but the
squadrons of Wraith fighters that were now leaving the
docking bay could. The Norad II had positioned itself the
way it did simply to prevent the Hyperion from going to
subwarp and leaving the Norad II to eat its wake. A textbook
maneuver. The general's mind began working out
the situation. The range of the remote terminals was
severely limited; the Norad II had been the closest and
probably the only ship to receive the transmission. And
if the general knew Colonel Duke, the stubborn old
codger did not report his situation before knowing all
the facts. Which meant that for right now, all they had to
deal with was the Norad II.?
Battlec crusiers carry up to two squads of wraiths, w/e on that means.
Anyone have any idea how good Babylon 5's FTL is? The Terrrans are aprrently very precise as shown here. Also from Starcraft:Uprising.

"A voice from the comm announced: "Sir, I'm showing
an unauthorized transmission was made just moments
ago from a remote terminal on the cargo level."
"Nav!" the general blurted.
A voice answered: "Yes, sir."
"Prepare to go to subwarp."
"Preparing for subwarp."
On a monitor near the one in front of the general, one
of the red dots disappeared from the screen.
"Too late," the general whispered to himself.
As Sarah glanced upward at the lookout there came a
bending, a rippling in the field of stars outside. Sarah's
eyes grew wide as the broadside of a massive metallic
craft seemingly appeared out of nowhere, directly in the
Hyperion's path. An alert was sounded."

This passage, also from the same book, seems to prove seige tanks are powerful enough to breach the weakened shields of the Norad II and to breach the outer hull with the next one.
"General Mengsk managed to stand. He stumbled to
the comm, shouting to be heard: "Seal off docking bay
two and open the outer doors, now!"
Long ago, General Mengsk had read of ancient battles,
back on Earth, from a time when men crossed oceans in
bulky, cumbersome wooden craft. At that time, when
these ships fought, they would position themselves
alongside each other and blast away with cannon. That
had always fascinated the general. Now, millennia later,
in the boundless ocean of space, Arcturus Mengsk
decided to try his hand at naval warfare.
[...]
The door was opening. Minute debris swept out into
the vacuum of space as the outer seal was broken. The
tank, moored by augmented G-forces, held steady.
Beyond the door was a massive beast of metal, the Norad
II. Forest Keel now understood the general's plan. A
smile spread across his face as the old man became giddy
with anticipation. Then the general's voice came
through Forest's helmet mike. The shields outside had
now been worn to almost nothing, and a great deal of
the noise had died down. Still, Forest had to strain to
hear. "Sergeant Keel, you may fire when ready."
"That's all you had to say, skipper! Yeee-haaa!!" Forest
engaged the shock cannon. There was massive recoil,
and when Keel looked back at the targeting monitor, he
saw a satisfying impact wave spreading across the neighboring
vessel's shield. The blast was enough to force the
defensive barrier to collapse. A bright ripple ran through
the shield and then it was gone. Forest fired again. This
time, the impact tore through the Norad's outer hull."


From the same book.
Ghosts can feel the presence of another psychics on board the Hyperion, although only as a vague "disturbance in the Force"

"The mental disturbance Sarah had felt when the dropship
landed had increased now to the point where she
could no longer push it to the back of her mind. She
struggled to figure out just what the disturbance was,
knowing that she should know, but she just couldn't
remember. It was like forgetting a word she had just spoken.
The Hyperion had broken out of subwarp now and was
cruising near the outer Fringe. General Mengsk, satisfied
that they were safe for the time being, turned to Sarah.
An immediate concern showed on his face.
"What's wrong? You're white as a-"
"Ghost," Sarah blurted. That's it, she thought. Of course
that's it . . .
"I was going to say a sheet, but-" The general was
interrupted by Somo's frantic voice from the comm."

From the same book,
Gauss rifles are extremely apparently powerful.
"Tibbs did not wait for the second man to take aim. He
began firing immediately, knowing that the noise may
draw attention (the gauss rifles were nowhere near as
loud as the canister rifles, but the spikes they fired
tended to create quite a racket when they ricocheted),
but also knowing that they had little choice. The man
who had raised his weapon was pinned to the wall by
the gunfire, hanging there for a moment, his arms outstretched,
before sliding to the floor."

[warty goblin]

Well, if indeed BC's can't fire sideways they are entirely hosed against B5 ships, since they will basically never actually manage to get a shot to hit. Wraiths won't help much against the super-maneuvarable Starfuries, meaning that they won't even have fighter superiority.

Without space superiority (and given that B5 energy weapons can bombard a planet from space) I don't see how the Confederation's superior ground forces will help, since they'll just be particle-beamed from out of the atmosphere.

I'm gonna hafta call this one for the EA, and not just because I like B5 better than SC.

[Fan]

1 word valkries they are specific air to air fighters and are extremly mannevurable and are very armoured with their laser and missle fire they handle starfuries handly:smallsmile:

[factotum]

Well, in the anti-fighter role, SC has Goliaths--the ground-to-air missiles they carry are extremely effective against airborne targets (in fact, that unit is considerably MORE effective against air targets than against ground ones).

Manoeuvrability: check out the game cutscene where the Norad 2 is shot down. It turns pretty damned sharply as it plunges toward the planet, which means one of two things: either its own manoeuvring systems went haywire and were capable of turning it at that speed, or they were capable of preventing some external force (e.g. gravity) from making the ship turn that fast. Either way, they're equally powerful and show a level of manoeuvrability you don't really see during the game itself--not too surprising considering everything in the game is modified to suit the game play conditions (compare the in-game size of a Battlecruiser with, say, an SCV and you'll realise the scale is utterly wrong for a start).

An Omega has reasonable turning ability (a pair of them turn 180 degrees in the course of a few seconds near the end of "Severed Dreams") but of course the main engines also determine how manoeuvrable a spaceship is, and this is an area I think SC has covered. Terran Battlecruisers can hover low down over the surface of a world, whereas Omegas can't...suggests the drives on the Battlecruisers are quite a bit more powerful.

Lastly, Winterwind, those defensive platforms had TWO weapons systems aboard. The missiles were just intended to defend them against attack from spacecraft, which is what they were being used for. The weapon that would have levelled "half the planet's surface" was actually some sort of plasma cannon--you can see the platforms rotating to bring these to bear on the planet's surface while leaving the missile arrays pointing outward to the attacking fleet. It was the Shadows who used missiles as planet destroyers, and they needed tens of thousands of them to do the job.

[Winterwind]

PsiCorps have been used in B5 to locate "stealthed" ships. Aim the guns toward the concentration of minds...That might work. Even though Wraiths are rather small and fast, being fighters, so that might still be somewhat difficult.


T-Bolts, while awesome, aren't readily available in 2259. They're out there, but in strictly limited quantities.That might be a problem. Starfuries are, after all, space-only fighters, not sufficiently aerodynamic for being used in an atmosphere.


All EA fighters CAN carry missiles, which pack roughly 1/2 the power of one of the heavy laser hits from an Omega. Those are non-nuclear missiles, btw. And don't forget about the EA fighter carrier. 144 Starfuries is dammed impressive (Omega carries 24, Hyperion carries 6, B5 Station carries 48).Starfuries qualify as the most badass fighters I have ever seen anyway. In hardly any other universe I know of a single fighter packs so much punch and so sophisticated systems.


I completely agree that an Omega would probably be destroyed by the Yamato gun- if it could hit. The Yamato is forward mounted right? As long as the Omega could avoid a head to head firing match and avoid the blast, I'd give it a slight advantage. If the Omega could manage to disable or destroy a BC's engines (which would be an easy objective for Starfuries) than it would be free to pick apart a BC at leasure and from extreme range.

B5- where fighters do it from behind.I could easily see that happen. In the show we see they have enough firepower to cripple enemy capital ships, and they are used to operate under heavy point-defense fire.
I am not entirely sure whether an Omega destroyer could circle a Behemoth battlecruiser fast enough for the cruiser to not be able to follow. Battlecruisers may be less agile than Omega destroyers, but I doubt they are this much less agile.


They're talking of the Confederacy. You're thinking of the Dominion.

Still, I'm not sure how Dominion-age Technology would fare against the EA.Feel free to make an argument why Confederacy technology would be insufficient, but Dominion technology would suffice, if you want to. :smallwink:


Battlec crusiers carry up to two squads of wraiths, w/e on that means.
Anyone have any idea how good Babylon 5's FTL is? The Terrrans are aprrently very precise as shown here. Also from Starcraft:Uprising.First of all, thanks for quoting all of this.
Now, as for the FTL question, Babylon 5 FTL seems to work pretty much with pinpoint precision and can be used tactically. Ships are frequently seen coming out of hyperspace precisely where they can cause the most damage.
It's a bit difficult to estimate B5's FTL speed though.


This passage, also from the same book, seems to prove seige tanks are powerful enough to breach the weakened shields of the Norad II and to breach the outer hull with the next one.[...]Terran vessels got shields in the novels now? :smallconfused:
That's pretty much in direct violation of what we learn in the manual, where it is explicitly stated that while the Terrans are experimenting with shield technology, they have never been able to construct working shield generators (the Research Vessel's Defense Matrix is the result of this research though).
Heck, even in the game one of the things a battlecruiser says when clicked several times is "Shields up, weapons online. Got no shields? Then buckle up.".
Does every battlecruiser have those according to the novels, or is it just the Norad II special battlecruiser that does?


From the same book.
Ghosts can feel the presence of another psychics on board the Hyperion, although only as a vague "disturbance in the Force"A few things the more powerful amongst the B5 telepaths can do:
- create a second personality in somebody's mind which takes over and eradicates the original personality when special telepathical impuls is transmitted
- telekinesis with enough fine control to crush one's major arteries
- subconcious orders which can cause people to work against their own friends
- subconcious blocades which prevent people physically from performing certain tasks (like shooting the telepath)
- altering memories
- extinguishing personalities
- extracting any specific wanted information from someone's mind
- see whether somebody is lying (this can be accomplished even by weak telepaths)
- making people shoot themselves
- induce pain which makes people collapse instantly
All of these, save the last two, were at some time performed or been stated to be withing the range of normal, albeit powerful, Psi Corps telepaths (the last two were performed only by Lyta Alexander, who is anything but a "normal" telepath and has been shown doing even more impressive things, although these two do not seem too much beyond what other telepaths have been shown to be able to do).


From the same book,
Gauss rifles are extremely apparently powerful.
"Tibbs did not wait for the second man to take aim. He
began firing immediately, knowing that the noise may
draw attention (the gauss rifles were nowhere near as
loud as the canister rifles, but the spikes they fired
tended to create quite a racket when they ricocheted),
but also knowing that they had little choice. The man
who had raised his weapon was pinned to the wall by
the gunfire, hanging there for a moment, his arms outstretched,
before sliding to the floor."I'm pretty sure the gauss rifle is a much more powerful weapon than any hand-carried gun the EA could muster. Those things are massive. I have my doubts how usable they would be if not for the Marine's powered armour.


Without space superiority (and given that B5 energy weapons can bombard a planet from space) I don't see how the Confederation's superior ground forces will help, since they'll just be particle-beamed from out of the atmosphere.Good point. A B5 fleet can lay waste to an entire planet out of space, pretty effectively, as we have seen on the example of Centauri Prime.


1 word valkries they are specific air to air fighters and are extremly mannevurable and are very armoured with their laser and missle fire they handle starfuries handly:smallsmile:Indeed, I think Valkyries might be the Terrans' greatest asset in this confrontation. They are the only thing I can think of that would probably stand a chance against Starfuries. Although Starfuries can fly in a looser formation and prevent from being hit by too many of the Valkyrie's Halo missiles, whereas the Valkyrie is much smaller than a battlecruiser and would hence not take much of the punishment the Starfuries could unleash.
Of course, the existance of Valkyries would imply we were already in the Dominion age and the Confederacy had fallen.


Well, in the anti-fighter role, SC has Goliaths--the ground-to-air missiles they carry are extremely effective against airborne targets (in fact, that unit is considerably MORE effective against air targets than against ground ones).Yes, they are.
However, this is somewhat easier in the StarCraft universe since pretty much all air units employ air-ground weapons which require line of sight (the missiles of Wraiths, for instance, are just air-to-air missiles; for ground bombardement the Wraiths employ a laser cannon). B5 fighters/bombers use highly powerful missiles out of long range for that purpose.


Manoeuvrability: check out the game cutscene where the Norad 2 is shot down. It turns pretty damned sharply as it plunges toward the planet, which means one of two things: either its own manoeuvring systems went haywire and were capable of turning it at that speed, or they were capable of preventing some external force (e.g. gravity) from making the ship turn that fast. Either way, they're equally powerful and show a level of manoeuvrability you don't really see during the game itself--not too surprising considering everything in the game is modified to suit the game play conditions (compare the in-game size of a Battlecruiser with, say, an SCV and you'll realise the scale is utterly wrong for a start).The reason why the Norad II is spinning seems to be because it just got hit by one or several scourges at its bottom left side - the direction of the spin is entirely in line with that. The explosion seems to have caused the spin, and the thrusters are unable to cope with that. I don't see how we can learn anything about its manouvrability from this video.
A better video for that purpose would be, in my opinion, the intro video of BroodWar, where we can see DuGaule's flagship hovering over the world before turning a bit and flying away. I would estimate the turning speed during that movement as roughly half of that we have seen Omega destroyers to be capable of.


An Omega has reasonable turning ability (a pair of them turn 180 degrees in the course of a few seconds near the end of "Severed Dreams") but of course the main engines also determine how manoeuvrable a spaceship is, and this is an area I think SC has covered. Terran Battlecruisers can hover low down over the surface of a world, whereas Omegas can't...suggests the drives on the Battlecruisers are quite a bit more powerful.I think the main reason why an Omega can't hover over the surface of a world is because it is completely non-aerodynamic and designed for space use only (which is not so bad since its weapons can easily fire upon ground targets nevertheless). We don't know whether its engines would be able to do that or not; likely not, because for that purpose it would require to install engines at the vessel's bottom side, which the Omega has no use for, except for manouvrability purposes.


Lastly, Winterwind, those defensive platforms had TWO weapons systems aboard. The missiles were just intended to defend them against attack from spacecraft, which is what they were being used for. The weapon that would have levelled "half the planet's surface" was actually some sort of plasma cannon--you can see the platforms rotating to bring these to bear on the planet's surface while leaving the missile arrays pointing outward to the attacking fleet. It was the Shadows who used missiles as planet destroyers, and they needed tens of thousands of them to do the job.Really? Have they been using these plasma cannons against the attacking fleet as well? I do not recall them firing anything except huge volleys of missiles...
Will have to watch that battle again, I guess.


One thing just occured to me: the Terrans could seriously damage the EA's economy and logistics by targeting the jump gates. It won't hinder the main military forces, since any major vessel has jump engines of its own, but the civilian travel, single fighter squadrons and smaller vessels would be thoroughly booped, to express it in Erfworld terms.

[Fan]

Now this is a little of topic but Winterwind are you going to have a starcraft2 group cause if you will i would be interested

[Winterwind]

Now this is a little of topic but Winterwind are you going to have a starcraft2 group cause if you will i would be interestedWhen it comes out, most likely, yes. I don't know how much time I will have then (I'll be a PhD student by then, after all), but if possible, and if there would be enough Playgrounders interested, I imagine it would be pretty fun.

[Fan]

Ah so your going for a PH.D that's a great idea and it will only forward you toward your goals. I myself will be going for a masters in a couple of years in computer Engineering what are you getting a PH.D in?

[Winterwind]

Ah so your going for a PH.D that's a great idea and it will only forward you toward your goals. I myself will be going for a masters in a couple of years in computer Engineering what are you getting a PH.D in?(Theoretical) Physics. I'm currently finishing my diploma thesis, and will be starting with the PhD next year.

[factotum]

I think the main reason why an Omega can't hover over the surface of a world is because it is completely non-aerodynamic and designed for space use only (which is not so bad since its weapons can easily fire upon ground targets nevertheless). We don't know whether its engines would be able to do that or not; likely not, because for that purpose it would require to install engines at the vessel's bottom side, which the Omega has no use for, except for manouvrability purposes.

Really? Have they been using these plasma cannons against the attacking fleet as well? I do not recall them firing anything except huge volleys of missiles...
Will have to watch that battle again, I guess.


We know the acceleration provided by an Omega's main engines is not that great. When you're watching that final battle again, note that Sheridan orders all power to the engines in order to ram the final weapons platform. This means the ship is accelerating as hard as it can, yet nobody on the bridge seems to have any difficulty remaining standing despite the fact the ship has no artificial gravity--it has to have a rotating section to provide that, so the acceleration from the engines would cause serious problems if they provided greater than a small fraction of one gee. Therefore an Omega's main engines cannot possibly be capable of supporting its own mass against gravity, whereas a battlecruiser can--this means a battlecruiser must have more powerful drive systems than the EA ship.

As for your second point, no, they didn't use the plasma cannon against the ships, because, like I said, those had been turned to fire on Earth. That was the whole point of the battle--they had to destroy the platforms before their main weapons could fire on the planet's surface. The missiles were presumably intended to take down smaller targets that the large main cannon couldn't easily have hit, such as Starfuries.

The ironic thing is, of course, if Clarke had left the platforms in their correct defensive orientation, he probably would have destroyed most of the attacking ships...since the platforms were reduced to using their missiles, the attacking ships were more easily able to destroy them.

[Winterwind]

We know the acceleration provided by an Omega's main engines is not that great. When you're watching that final battle again, note that Sheridan orders all power to the engines in order to ram the final weapons platform. This means the ship is accelerating as hard as it can, yet nobody on the bridge seems to have any difficulty remaining standing despite the fact the ship has no artificial gravity--it has to have a rotating section to provide that, so the acceleration from the engines would cause serious problems if they provided greater than a small fraction of one gee. Therefore an Omega's main engines cannot possibly be capable of supporting its own mass against gravity, whereas a battlecruiser can--this means a battlecruiser must have more powerful drive systems than the EA ship.Most excellent argument. Yes, that makes perfect sense.
This would also imply that StarCraft capital ships would have a significant advantage in terms of tactical speed.


As for your second point, no, they didn't use the plasma cannon against the ships, because, like I said, those had been turned to fire on Earth. That was the whole point of the battle--they had to destroy the platforms before their main weapons could fire on the planet's surface. The missiles were presumably intended to take down smaller targets that the large main cannon couldn't easily have hit, such as Starfuries.

The ironic thing is, of course, if Clarke had left the platforms in their correct defensive orientation, he probably would have destroyed most of the attacking ships...since the platforms were reduced to using their missiles, the attacking ships were more easily able to destroy them.I thought Clark turned the defensive platforms against Earth only after realising the battle was lost. We can see him pressing the metaphorical red button when the battle is already raging.

[Swordguy]

Most excellent argument. Yes, that makes perfect sense.
This would also imply that StarCraft capital ships would have a significant advantage in terms of tactical speed.


Except that we never really see the effects of inertia on ANYBODY. Look at Starfury pilots. They're using 5-point harnesses, and are flipping end for end and pulling 90-degree turns at a speed of 9000 kph (5 km long B5 station, takes 2 seconds to fly the length of). That's a MASSIVE G-load, yet we never see any strain on the pilots.

I'd call that proof of a technology equivalent to a Star Trek/Wars Inertial Compensator, which is separate from artificial gravity. That also means they aren't going to show any strain of acceleration on an Omega under full thrust, either. Which means an Omega can have quite a bit of accel and delta/V available to it and we'd never know judging by the people on the bridge. (Using the B5 War game, which has all the techspecs approved by JMS, the Omega's accel turns out to be pretty good, about 1/3rd that of a Starfury, though it's maneuvering capability isn't so hot).


Other proof on inertial compensator: when the EA get their hands on a White Star, they're impressed as heck with the artificial gravity. Yet look at the way a WS handles - it definitely has an inertial compensator. And there's nary a mention of it - which implies that it's not an unfamiliar technology to Sheridan and Co.

[factotum]

Two points here:

a) You seem to be confusing speed with acceleration. When a Starfury travelling at 9000kph turns 180 degrees, there is little lateral G load because after the flip it's travelling BACKWARDS at 9000kph--it then has to use its engines to accelerate back into action. (There are several instances in the show where a Starfury is explicitly shown flying backwards relative to a nearby object, so I'm not just making this up).

b) I think the artificial gravity system IS the inertial compensator. Going back to the scene under discussion, Sheridan orders full power to the engines in order to ram the final weapons platform. The ship is then accelerating for at least 20-30 seconds before another ship destroys the platform; the Agamemnon then flies through the explosion cloud. An Omega is about a kilometre long, and it takes a good three or four seconds for it to get through the cloud--that means it has accelerated to about 300 m/s relative to the platform! That's an acceleration of around one gee, which is more than I would have expected from the earlier scene but still not massive. Certainly if Earthforce ships had some sort of inertial compensator you would expect them to have much greater acceleration than that.

[Winterwind]

On some site (which I unfortunately can't find right now, and neither can I check whether its material was official or not) I read an Omega destroyer was about 1700 metres long.

And there's one argument in favour of inertial compensation: Omega destroyers have been seen to turn around within what, four seconds? Given their length, those are pretty massive accelerations as well - and I think it is reasonable to assume that their main engines will be more powerful than those responsible for turning the ship around.

[Swordguy]

Two points here:

a) You seem to be confusing speed with acceleration. When a Starfury travelling at 9000kph turns 180 degrees, there is little lateral G load because after the flip it's travelling BACKWARDS at 9000kph--it then has to use its engines to accelerate back into action. (There are several instances in the show where a Starfury is explicitly shown flying backwards relative to a nearby object, so I'm not just making this up).


You're correct in your physics, but they're also shown making 90-degree turns at that speed...which DO create a G-load.

It's also interesting to note that B5 ships are generally constrained by newtonian physics and SC ships are not.

[warty goblin]

Does it? As long as the Starfury cuts forward acceleration before turning, the speed that they are moving relative to something else is pretty much irrelivant IIRC from Freshman physics.

If we are assuming actual Newtonian physics for this battle, then the Confederacy is in serious trouble, since their ships seem engineered for a more Star Wars like physical system, and don't seem to be built for engaging targets to the sides or top and bottum, or manuerering to bring their weapons to target. And if indeed they can be heavily injured by a tank (a single tank with one shot, not a prolonged bombardment) ,they're pretty much hosed against a weapon that can bombard a planet from orbit.

Given the EA's space superiority, ground battles become somewhat irrelevant, since they'll just be cut down from space.

Factors in the Confederacy's favor are their very good static defenses and perhaps slightly higher technological level, and infantry for boarding actions- which we do know that B5 ships are vulnerable to, so it's probably going to be a messy fight, but in the end I have to give it to the EA.

[Hannes]

But then again, tanks do more damage than a battlecruiser does. 5 times more. And Ghosts can do psionic storms if their neural implants are removed. (Causing heavy damage in the area)

[warty goblin]

Which kinda implies that the Terran engineering academy had the day off- you can mount the most powerful coventional weapon in the universe on a tank, but not on a kilometer long starship? Somehow this does not make sense to me...

And psycops make ghosts look like potato salad- they could tear the mind out of a ghost, gain all that they know, and then send them back with an undetectable hidden personality to spy for the Psicorp, all with the ghost never knowing a thing...

[Hannes]

Except that the ghosts with neural implants probably won't be affected, because they can't even think independently. I think. However, this discussion is weird and I'm just hurting Terrans probably.

[Swordguy]

Does it? As long as the Starfury cuts forward acceleration before turning, the speed that they are moving relative to something else is pretty much irrelivant IIRC from Freshman physics.


That's the thing. They're moving at 9000 kph and making 90-degree snap turns without perceptibly decelerating (judging by their relative motion to the B5 station, which for all practical purposes in the combat shots is a stationary object). Note this is opposed to the 120-degree snap turns at a higher speed that Minbari Nials manage to pull off, which is just insane.

When I say 9000 kph, by the way, that's relative to the B5 station (which IS a stationay object). The B5 station is 5km long. It takes a 2-second shot for a Starfury to cover the length of it. Math says 9000kph if you're taking 2 seconds to cover 5km.

The other thing to look at is that B5 ships are tough. Using the B5 Wars game as the baseline, an Omega can take a mid-scale nuke to it's broadside structure 4 times before it starts doing damage to the really critical stuff deep in the vessel. The front is even more heavily-armored (Light Particle Beams aside, EA ships are forward-canted in armor and armament). Starcraft ships seem to come apart rapidly.

Just in case you want to use another baseline than a nuke, look at mass drivers. B5 mass drivers fire chunks of rock or metal at c-fractional speeds (50% of LS or more). The average mass driver does 15 points of damage. An Omega can take 6 of these on its side structure - the 7th will wipe the side and start on the center structure. (An Omega has 5 seperate structural damage tracks, front, back, left, right, and center.) How much energy is released by a 200-kg hunk of metal travelling, say 25% of the speed of light? It's a LOT.

I agree that the 2259 EA will *squeak* out a win. Orbital bombardment isn't that great - it can destroy ground, but it cannot take ground. However, it can soften up the SC OPFOR enough that the GROPOS have the dirtside advantage.

The post-Shadow War EA will just WTFPWN the Terran Alliance/Confederacy/whatever. Warlocks supported by fighter-carriers and White Stars are sick.

[Talkkno]

From "Liberty's Crusade"
"Up ahead, a pile of boulders vaporized in a massive explosion. Kerrigan brought the cycle up short."
Now this is a siege tank cannon in seige mode we are talking. Now assuming the utter low end for a "Pile". A total of eight one metric ton boulders. 8,000 kg or so..58.4 gigajoules for the siege cannon. Thats not too bad for mere tank:smallbiggrin:. Don't forget the tank only damaged the Norhad 2 because its shields were severalty depleted from a previous fight, not to mention its hull was also compromised a bit.IRRC

[BRC]

From "Liberty's Crusade"
"Up ahead, a pile of boulders vaporized in a massive explosion. Kerrigan brought the cycle up short."
Now this is a siege tank cannon in seige mode we are talking. Now assuming the utter low end for a "Pile". A total of eight one metric ton boulders. 8,000 kg or so..58.4 gigajoules for the siege cannon. Thats not too bad for mere tank:smallbiggrin:. Don't forget the tank only damaged the Norhad 2 because its shields were severalty depleted from a previous fight, not to mention its hull was also compromised a bit.IRRC
The norad II didn't have sheilds, only protoss have sheilds.

[Hannes]

shield /ʃild/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sheeld] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a broad piece of armor, varying widely in form and size, carried apart from the body, usually on the left arm, as a defense against swords, lances, arrows, etc.
2. a similar device, often of lightweight plastic, used by riot police to protect themselves from rocks and other thrown objects.
3. something shaped like a shield, variously round, octagonal, triangular, or somewhat heart-shaped.
4. a person or thing that protects.
5. a police officer's, detective's, or sheriff's badge.
6. Ordnance. a steel screen attached to a gun to protect its crew, mechanism, etc.
7. Mining. a movable framework for protecting a miner from cave-ins, etc.
8. Electricity. a covering, usually made of metal, placed around an electric device or circuit in order to reduce the effects of external electric and magnetic fields.
9. Zoology. a protective plate or the like on the body of an animal, as a scute, enlarged scale, etc.
10. dress shield.
11. Heraldry. an escutcheon, esp. one broad at the top and pointed at the bottom, for displaying armorial bearings.
12. (initial capital letter) Astronomy. the constellation Scutum.
13. Also called continental shield. Geology. a vast area of ancient crustal rocks which, together with a platform, constitutes a craton.
14. a protective barrier against nuclear radiation, esp. a lead or concrete structure around a reactor.
–verb (used with object)
15. to protect (someone or something) with or as if with a shield.
16. to serve as a protection for.
17. to hide or conceal; protect by hiding.
18. Obsolete. to avert; forbid.
–verb (used without object)
19. to act or serve as a shield.shield /ʃild/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sheeld] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a broad piece of armor, varying widely in form and size, carried apart from the body, usually on the left arm, as a defense against swords, lances, arrows, etc.
2. a similar device, often of lightweight plastic, used by riot police to protect themselves from rocks and other thrown objects.
3. something shaped like a shield, variously round, octagonal, triangular, or somewhat heart-shaped.
4. a person or thing that protects.
5. a police officer's, detective's, or sheriff's badge.
6. Ordnance. a steel screen attached to a gun to protect its crew, mechanism, etc.
7. Mining. a movable framework for protecting a miner from cave-ins, etc.
8. Electricity. a covering, usually made of metal, placed around an electric device or circuit in order to reduce the effects of external electric and magnetic fields.
9. Zoology. a protective plate or the like on the body of an animal, as a scute, enlarged scale, etc.
10. dress shield.
11. Heraldry. an escutcheon, esp. one broad at the top and pointed at the bottom, for displaying armorial bearings.
12. (initial capital letter) Astronomy. the constellation Scutum.
13. Also called continental shield. Geology. a vast area of ancient crustal rocks which, together with a platform, constitutes a craton.
14. a protective barrier against nuclear radiation, esp. a lead or concrete structure around a reactor.
–verb (used with object)
15. to protect (someone or something) with or as if with a shield.
16. to serve as a protection for.
17. to hide or conceal; protect by hiding.
18. Obsolete. to avert; forbid.
–verb (used without object)
19. to act or serve as a shield.


Yes, Norad II HAS shields.

[warty goblin]

From "Liberty's Crusade"
"Up ahead, a pile of boulders vaporized in a massive explosion. Kerrigan brought the cycle up short."
Now this is a siege tank cannon in seige mode we are talking. Now assuming the utter low end for a "Pile". A total of eight one metric ton boulders. 8,000 kg or so..58.4 gigajoules for the siege cannon. Thats not too bad for mere tank:smallbiggrin:. Don't forget the tank only damaged the Norhad 2 because its shields were severalty depleted from a previous fight, not to mention its hull was also compromised a bit.IRRC

But still- a tank! And the BC doesn't even mount conventional guns that powerful- does this make any sense? I'm sorry but if kilometer long BCs (and the Norad II is top of the line as well, at least in SC its significantly tougher than a standard BC) get blown out of the sky by standard artillary, there's something seriously wrong with the design. B5 ships can almost certainly do more damage then that, and pretty clearly take more of a beating as well. In space the terrans are doomed- on the ground they could win easily except for those pesky Death Rays from Space...