Empire Hunting Fugitives With Divination

[Palanan]

What spells could an empire use to hunt fugitives, and how effective would they be?

The fugitives are traveling in a great northern wilderness, and the empire is trying to pinpoint their location from a thousand miles away. The empire has the resources to put multiple casters on the case, but I’m having a hard time finding a spell that would be useful under these circumstances.

Discern Location seems ideal, but the trick is you need to have something the target once possessed, which doesn’t apply in this case. Locate Creature is great for close-range tracking, but doesn’t help with targets hundreds of miles away. Scrying lets you watch the target, but doesn’t give a precise location.

As for strictly divine spells, Contact Other Plane seems a little iffy. Commune is a little better, if you structure your questions carefully, but still not that precise. Find Quarry is pure money for targets within 20 miles, but useless at greater distances. A combination of Commune and Find Quarry might work, but doesn’t seem that reliable.

The best option I can think of isn’t Pathfinder, but a fairly obscure spell from Magic of Faerûn. Circle Dance allows you to know the bearing of your target, but not the distance. A network of casters spread around the empire, linked by Sending and all casting Circle Dance at the same time, could easily plot and compare their bearings and pinpoint the fugitives’ location. Except…each caster needs “firsthand knowledge” of the target, so that’s also not feasible.

I feel like I must be missing something obvious. Is there anything from Pathfinder that could accomplish this task? And if not Pathfinder, anything from 3.X?

.

[Gallowglass]

What spells could an empire use to hunt fugitives, and how effective would they be?...

...I feel like I must be missing something obvious. Is there anything from Pathfinder that could accomplish this task? And if not Pathfinder, anything from 3.X?

.


You aren't missing anything.

In -theorycraft- divinations are seen as the end all be all, capable of giving the character perfect knowledge and the ability to foresee every eventuality and find out every bit of knowledge. Which is why so many threads on this board and TO characters shorthand "they use divinations to do x" without, you know, actually explaining how.

In -reality- the divination spells available fall far short of that target. You've stumbled on a use case that's a perfect example of that.

Day 312:

Evil Commander: "Anything to report?"

Wizard: "Well unlike yesterday, they failed their save so I was able to scry them!"

Evil Commander: "And?"

Wizard: "*sigh* more dark snow-dotted forest. They passed by a lumber camp, but there was no sign saying the name of it."

Evil Commander: "How many Lumber camps are there in the mountains?"

Wizard: "3124"

Evil Commander: "God dammit. Okay lets go through the commune questions again."

Cleric: "Oh great and powerful Oz! If I was to go North of where we left off yesterday would I gain ground on my quarry I defined yesterday"

Oz: "Woe!"

Cleric: "Oh great and powerful Oz! If I was to go East of where we left off yesteday would I gain ground on my quarry I defined yesterday"

Oz: "Woe!"

Cleric: "Oh great and powerful Oz! If I was to go West of where we left off yesterday woudl I gain ground on my quarry I defined yesterday"

Oz: "Weal!"

Evil Commander: "Now we are getting somewhere!"

/please note: the proceeding was for comedy purposes only. Do not tell me about how wrong I am about how the spells work. I do not care, nor should you.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Gallowglass
In -theorycraft- divinations are seen as the end all be all….

In -reality- the divination spells available fall far short of that target.

That does seem to be the case. Divinations seem to have a reputation far beyond their means, which is probably why I was expecting more from them.


Originally Posted by Gallowglass
…the proceeding was for comedy purposes only.

And hilarious indeed it was. :smallsmile:

[Blooming_Earth]

Discern location also says that you can find an object if you've touched it before. Have they touched any of their possessions?

What is this northern wilderness like? Forest? Desert? Magical in any way? Should the empire worry about them escaping to a nearby city?

Depending on the circumstances a really high Survival check could potentially work.

Scrying + Teleport/Greater Teleport could work.

[upho]

If psionics is on the table, augered answer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/a/augured-answer/) is a bit more open than divination spells. An empire could have say 100+ people manifesting and asking the same/similar question, along the lines of "What is the current location of [adventuring party]?" and then their "boss" can compile all the more or less cryptic answers to deduce the location.

If anyone trying to find them have personally met them and the empire has a higher level manifester in their service, you could also bring out the big guns, like metafaculty (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metafaculty).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Blooming_Earth
Discern location also says that you can find an object if you've touched it before. Have they touched any of their possessions?

No, they haven’t, hence the issues with this one.


Originally Posted by upho
If psionics is on the table….

Not in this case, no.


Originally Posted by upho
An empire could have say 100+ people manifesting and asking the same/similar question….

I was hoping to do this with some of the divination spells—a whole bank of lower-level casters working the same problem. But right now I can’t see how to make this work with the spell limitations mentioned above.

[AnimeTheCat]

If the targets are fugitives, have they stolen anything from the empire proper. Stuff like weapons, armor, supplies, bags, books, etc. If they have, you could have all of the equipment marked with an Arcane Mark (if using pathfinder, this is suuuuuuper effective since you have limitless cantrips). Then I believe you can use that arcane mark as a focus for scrying attempts. Also, many magic item store owners are known for doing this same tactic not only to prove their ownership of the product, but also to track it down in the event that someone steals from them.

Would using Arcane Marks work at all?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat
If the targets are fugitives, have they stolen anything from the empire proper.

They have indeed, but nothing that was magically marked ahead of time.

One of the PCs started out with a stolen suit of custom leather armor, but swapped it out as soon as possible.

[JMS]

How large of a general area can the empire narrow down? Try to get it fairly close with Commune, then just spam the short range spells with casters on the ground. To narrow down quickly, divide into grids.

[Psyren]

...Am I missing something? Discern Location (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/discern-location/) works on creatures just fine, and all you had to do was see them before, no possessions needed. Were they invisible the whole time they were in jail?

[Gallowglass]

...Am I missing something? Discern Location (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/discern-location/) works on creatures just fine, and all you had to do was see them before, no possessions needed. Were they invisible the whole time they were in jail?



The fugitives are traveling in a great northern wilderness, and the empire is trying to pinpoint their location from a thousand miles away.

Discern Location:

A discern location spell is among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location. The spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies

Evil Commander: "Why are you using discern location you fools?!"

Wizard: "*sigh* *casts spell*"

Spooky ethereal voice: "Your quarry are in the Great Northern Forest, Northumbria, The continent of Archasm, The Ghedian Prime Material Plane"

Evil Commander: "What?! The Great Northern Forest are 1000 square miles! Do better than that!"

Spooky ethereal voice: "... by some spruce trees?"

Evil Commander: "God Dammit."

Spooky ethereal voice: "...there's a stream?"


/Again: Comedy Purposes. Don't bother telling me how wrongy-wrong I am about how the spell works/


In fairness as well, its unlikely that the empire marches all the high-levelled (8th level spell!?) wizards through the jailcells every day so they can put eyeballs on all the prisoners in case they escape later. The spell doesn't work if Joe Jailer sees them, only if the spellcaster sees them. Better train Joe Jailer in UMD so he can use the scrolls I guess.

[Malroth]

Except you never have thousands of square miles of the same name place, hundreds of petty bandit cheifs can and would appoint themselves lord and name a territory in that type of region and Discern Location would tell you that. Even if absolutely nobody lived there at all, you could still have a druid get in on the scrying and make the knowledge nature checks to tell the difference between a spruce a yew an aspen and a fir and cut several hundred square miles out of the search area every time scrying worked. If all else failed draw and name quadrants of the map and quadrants of the quadrants and Commune would let you reduce the search area by a factor of 75% every casting.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
...Am I missing something? Discern Location works on creatures just fine….

I never said it didn’t.


Originally Posted by Discern Location
To find a creature with the spell, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it.

This is the sticking point. The casters capable of casting this spell are in the Imperial or provincial capitals, hundreds of miles from the targets of interest. They’ve never seen the targets and have nothing in the way of the targets’ possessions.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Were they invisible the whole time they were in jail?

They were never in jail.


Originally Posted by Gallowglass
In fairness as well, its unlikely that the empire marches all the high-levelled (8th level spell!?) wizards through the jailcells every day so they can put eyeballs on all the prisoners in case they escape later.

Also this.

[Gallowglass]

except you never have thousands of square miles of the same name place, hundreds of petty bandit cheifs can and would appoint themselves lord and name a territory in that type of region and Discern Location would tell you that.
*sigh*

Okay.

Evil Commander: "Why are you using discern location you fools?!"

Wizard: "*sigh* *casts spell*"

Spooky ethereal voice: "Your quarry are in the Great Northern Forest, Northumbria, The continent of Archasm, The Ghedian Prime Material Plane"

Evil Commander: "What?! The Great Northern Forest are 1000 square miles! Do better than that!"

Spooky ethereal voice: "... by the bandit camp of the Red Dwarven knobrustler bandits!"

Evil Commander: "Huh? Who? Do we have a map?"

Wizard: "... a map? of a secret bandit camp? I mean... if we knew where it was we would've already wiped them out..."

Evil Commander: "God Dammit"

/Again: Comedy Purposes. Don't bother telling me how wrongy-wrong I am about how the spell works even though you already did.


Even if absolutely nobody lived there at all, you could still have a druid get in on the scrying and make the knowledge nature checks to tell the difference between a spruce a yew an aspen and a fir and cut several hundred square miles out of the search area every time scrying worked

There is no aspect of discern location that lets the caster let someone else "see what they see". Its not even clear that they "see" anything. As written, all you get is the name of the place.



If all else failed draw and name quadrants of the map and quadrants of the quadrants and Commune would let you reduce the search area by a factor of 75% every casting.

I covered the hilarity of commune spamming earlier.

As I stated. The difference between how you think the spell should work and how it actually works. The difference between what you think divination can do versus what it actually can.

That being said... not how I DM it. If I have a player casting an 8TH LEVEL SPELL to discern location, they are going to get the location. Its an 8TH LEVEL SPELL.

[Psyren]

/Again: Comedy Purposes. Don't bother telling me how wrongy-wrong I am about how the spell works/

I mean, I don't want a 40-page debate either but I kind of do have to say you're wrongy-wrong. The spell explicitly says "exact location."

But since you seem to like comedy, here's a counter-scenario for you:

Wizard: "I'm telling you, the Great Northern Forest covers 1000 square miles! There's no way to-"

Imperial Cartographer: "Your Excellency, I have that new map you requested."

Evil Commander: "Excellent! And the subdivisions?"

Imperial Cartographer: "Each covers a square mile, just like you wanted."

Evil Commander: "Fantastic. Show him."

Wizard: "Give me that... What? Sector 1A, 2A, 3A.... is this a grid? Why?"

Evil Commander: "It's obvious, isn't it? Cast your spell."

Wizard: "Fine..." *casts spell.* "Interesting. It's telling me they're in sector 78C."

Evil Commander: "Excellent. You have a few more of those prepared today, right? Cast it again an hour from now, and an hour after that. We'll either get them after they camp for the night, or simply ambush them wherever they're going. All in a day's work!"



This is the sticking point. The casters capable of casting this spell are in the Imperial or provincial capitals, hundreds of miles from the targets of interest. They’ve never seen the targets and have nothing in the way of the targets’ possessions.

So have them scry first. Or hell, paint a picture. The Empire has artists right?

[RNightstalker]

There are these things called Rangers...and there is a spell that lets your spirit leave your body and travel great distances if I'm not mistaken, just can't think of it off hand right now.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
So have them scry first.

Interesting. Discern Location requires the caster to have seen the creature, which I assumed meant ordinary sight.

If scrying fulfils this requirement, then this is a good one-two combo for the empire. Still not foolproof, but definitely promising.


Originally Posted by RNightstalker
…and there is a spell that lets your spirit leave your body and travel great distances if I'm not mistaken, just can't think of it off hand right now.

Sounds like a great spell. Sure would love to know what it is.

[Psyren]

Interesting. Discern Location requires the caster to have seen the creature, which I assumed meant ordinary sight.

If scrying fulfils this requirement, then this is a good one-two combo for the empire. Still not foolproof, but definitely promising.

Yep:

"If the save fails, you can see and hear the subject and its surroundings (approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject). If the subject moves, the sensor follows at a speed of up to 150 feet."

[Palanan]

Sounds like a good strategy, then. There's still the question of the Will save, but most of the party have notoriously poor Will saves.

The next question is, what spells can interfere with scrying? The PCs have some allies who may be able to help with this, but I'm not familiar with the details of counterscrying.

[Psyren]

Sounds like a good strategy, then. There's still the question of the Will save, but most of the party have notoriously poor Will saves.

Even if they make the save, the Empire can just keep trying. They only have to see them once after all.



The next question is, what spells can interfere with scrying? The PCs have some allies who may be able to help with this, but I'm not familiar with the details of counterscrying.

Nondetection is the main one, but any imperial magi capable of Discern Location are bound to have pretty high CL. (Actually, what level are the party?)

EDIT: Mind Blank is a lot more foolproof, but then I'd go back to "having seen them through a picture or drawing." Or they can read the memories of whatever LEO they were fugitives from in the first place.

[Palanan]

Heh. They just hit third level.

:smalltongue:

[RNightstalker]

Astral Projection, PH 201.

[Psyren]

Heh. They just hit third level.

:smalltongue:

Erm. Aren't 15+ level casters a bit overkill then? Just have dogs/rangers go after them or something.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by RNightstalker
Astral Projection, PH 201.

Ah. This is Pathfinder, so it’s CRB p. 244. Doesn’t seem to be a ranger spell in either edition.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Aren't 15+ level casters a bit overkill then?

Empire. Overkill is how they roll.

[Psyren]

Empire. Overkill is how they roll.

Okay well, then they find/catch them. Asked and answered :smalltongue:

[RNightstalker]

Ah. This is Pathfinder, so it’s CRB p. 244. Doesn’t seem to be a ranger spell in either edition.

It would be a Ranger to track the old fashioned way and/or another spellcaster casting Astral Projection...that could take the Ranger along.

[Gallowglass]

Ah. This is Pathfinder, so it’s CRB p. 244. Doesn’t seem to be a ranger spell in either edition.



Empire. Overkill is how they roll.

So now we are at the point where... you are the DM... you are crafting obstacles for them to overcome and encounters for them to have and a world for them to live in.

You don't NEED to know what spell the empire is using. Its enough to know that they have the ability.

The party is trudging through the snow-packed forest when suddenly they hear dogs... someone is pursuing them!

But how? How did they find them? That's a mystery!

Because, frankly, if you are packing the Empire with multiple 15+ level wizards JUST so you can find them, they aren't going to just discern location then teleport level appropriate bad guys to the location of the party.

One wizard is going to 8th level spell discern location "found it!" 5th level spell go to them "Teleport!" then quickened fireball, fireball and bob's your uncle, his work day is done.

[RNightstalker]

So now we are at the point where... you are the DM... you are crafting obstacles for them to overcome and encounters for them to have and a world for them to live in.

You don't NEED to know what spell the empire is using. Its enough to know that they have the ability.

The party is trudging through the snow-packed forest when suddenly they hear dogs... someone is pursuing them!

But how? How did they find them? That's a mystery!

Because, frankly, if you are packing the Empire with multiple 15+ level wizards JUST so you can find them, they aren't going to just discern location then teleport level appropriate bad guys to the location of the party.

One wizard is going to 8th level spell discern location "found it!" 5th level spell go to them "Teleport!" then quickened fireball, fireball and bob's your uncle, his work day is done.

That's all good stuff, but you can sometimes feel like the parent that goes "Because I said so!"...having legitimate reasons why/how which may or may not be revealed later (depending on the players) are always worth it whenever possible.

[Gallowglass]

I mean, I don't want a 40-page debate either but I kind of do have to say you're wrongy-wrong. The spell explicitly says "exact location."


first. I agree with you. its an eighth level spell and if they have it and cast it then yeah. "They are right there!"

However, while the spell "explicitly says "exact" location, the spell also explicitly says what specifically you GET "The spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies" Which, frankly, taken as written, is pretty expressly limited.

"They are in Candy's bake shop, Waterdeep" is more useful than "They are wandering through the forest on the side of Mount Vaskes, upper Trotka"

At that point you are just cherry picking which explicit word or words you want out of the spell's definition. You arbitrarily picking a different phrase than me doesn't make me "wrongy wrong" or you "righty right"


Either way, its overkill for a bunch of 3rd level shlubs. Have the empire hire some local ruffian trackers and give them something level appropriate rather than something that leads to a ludicrous "why are we still alive anyway" scenario.

[Psyren]

At that point you are just cherry picking which explicit word or words you want out of the spell's definition. You arbitrarily picking a different phrase than me doesn't make me "wrongy wrong" or you "righty right"

Sure, but I don't see why it has to stop at "they're in this big forest, good luck." Just because YOU don't name every copse, clearing, and riverbend in a wood, it's illogical to conclude that must mean they don't have names, and the spell can retrieve whatever it needs to in order for the caster to pinpoint their exact location.

And as my only-somewhat-facetious example was meant to illustrate - even if the forest doesn't already have named subdivisions, one of the perks of being a governing authority is that you can simply assign some names if you want to. If the government are petty enough to use level 15 casters to track down level 3 schlubs, this seems a pretty trivial use of resources in comparison. Ergo - forest parts named, fugitives found.



Either way, its overkill for a bunch of 3rd level shlubs. Have the empire hire some local ruffian trackers and give them something level appropriate rather than something that leads to a ludicrous "why are we still alive anyway" scenario.

On this we agree completely.


That's all good stuff, but you can sometimes feel like the parent that goes "Because I said so!"...having legitimate reasons why/how which may or may not be revealed later (depending on the players) are always worth it whenever possible.

Sure, but the low level stuff is just as legitimate, is the point. "They found you using rangers and hunting dogs" is functionally the same as using near-capstone magic, and gives the players a lot more agency. (e.g. "We can potentially fight or sneak free before they take us back" and "next time, we can avoid this by hiding our tracks and masking our scent" etc.)

[Malroth]

The divinations Should be difficult to counter but the Empire doesn't necessarily have to use them. Every Commune used to find a bunch of 3rd lv mooks who will probably be eaten by bears in the next week is a Commune not being used to find a lv 9 revoutionary leader spreading dissent, Use one spell to narrow it down to a 20 mile or so area then call in some local muscle who take it from there with rangers and wolves. Leads to a much better XP curve for the players and less headache figuring out why the players are still alive.

[JMS]

I covered the hilarity of commune spamming earlier.

As I stated. The difference between how you think the spell should work and how it actually works. The difference between what you think divination can do versus what it actually can.
For the Commune thing, it's not to try to determine direction, but general area. First Commune: "Are they in quadrant 1 on this map?"
Response: "No" (I'm assuming the D0iety can find the target, given 3.5 deities' capability at detection, using unique tools like portfolio sense. Something pinged.)
2 Commune: "Okay, are they in quadrant 2?"
"No"
"Are they in Quadrant 3?"
"Yes"
"Okay, sub-quadrant 1 of quadrant 3?"
And so on, until the group is found down to a mile or so.

[Talverin]

Roll some fluff-stuff into it. Have the Empire seed agents throughout the small towns and such... and have them pretend to be merchants, or some other kind of travelling person that sometimes needs adventurers. Either have them led into an ambush, or let them acquire some kind of loot that the Empire supplied. Something they'll hold onto. Like a Campfire bead. No party will discard one of those, it being a Wondrous item, and they will get a lot of use out of it. Also it's such a pedestrian item, they'll never considering that it's being used against them.

Same thing for a magical sword, or shield, or a helm that does something fancy like give them Deeper Darkvision... Right up until a command word activates the curse, blinding them and forcing the wearer to make Strength checks against a now brightly glowing helm with sealed eye slits to try and tug it off of him. Maybe the gorget will even start to choke them.

Actually, I think I'm gonna use this last one...

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Commune
You contact your deity—or agents thereof—and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no.

So here’s another question about Commune. Is it limited to questions about the present, or can it also be used to divine the future?

This isn’t specified in the text of the spell, although the text does emphasize that “powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient,” and that the responses “are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge.”

Given this, it seems that a narrow ruling would limit the responses to present circumstances, especially since there’s no provision in the text for how far in the future the spell can provide answers for. But how do others rule this? Is Commune typically used to query the future as well as the present?

[Gallowglass]

For the Commune thing, it's not to try to determine direction, but general area. First Commune: "Are they in quadrant 1 on this map?"
Response: "No" (I'm assuming the D0iety can find the target, given 3.5 deities' capability at detection, using unique tools like portfolio sense. Something pinged.)
2 Commune: "Okay, are they in quadrant 2?"
"No"
"Are they in Quadrant 3?"
"Yes"
"Okay, sub-quadrant 1 of quadrant 3?"
And so on, until the group is found down to a mile or so.

I -agree- that the spell can work this way.

But its ridiculous.

First, its a 5th level spell. Meaning you need at least a 9th level Cleric to cast it. That's normally considered the high priests of large churches/cathedrals/synagogues/mosques/etc.

Second it takes 10 minutes to cast for 9 rounds of questions. Assuming you rule it as one question a round (which is fair for six seconds) that's 9 questions to narrow it down.

Third, you just spent 500 gp to cast that spell. Double or triple that if you need more than 9 rounds of questions.

The idea that this evil empire has multiple 9th level casters ready and available with multiple communes prayed for, and that much capital to waste finding some 3rd level mooks is patently ridiculous. Because if the evil commander has a bunch of 9th level cleric and orders them to "deal" with the problem, there are a bunch of better ways than commune spamming.

The players are 3rd level. I'm assuming there is some long term goal for them to get high level and take down the evil empire. But right now, they should be dealt with as they are now. 3rd level mooks.

Evil Commander: "Status report!"

Evil Secretary: "Your foul legion is mostly done putting down the uprising on the eastern border. Your spies in East Conglormia report that the queen is near death from your order to slowly poison her. The arch devil Mohrab has contacted us to broker a deal for slave souls in return for hell-iron.... Oh, yeah, those fugitives are still in the north mountain, we think."

Evil Commander: "Fine fine... I will talk to Mohrab myself, send the legion of prickly manticores to serve as the hammer to end the uprising, oh and arrange flowers for the queen's funeral. I want them to arrive early enough to sow doubt into the prince's mind."

Evil Secretary: "Got it... uh about the fugitives?"

Evil Commander: "ugh. Just send a scouting lance to hire some local rangers to find them. Or better yet, those mountains are full of bandits. Lets use them to our advantage for once. Release a 100 gp bounty on them dead, 150 for at least two of them alive."

Evil Secretary: "Got it... why two?"

Evil Commander: "So I can kill one in front of the other you dolt."

Evil Secretary: "Of course my liege"

[JMS]

I -agree- that the spell can work this way.

But its ridiculous.

First, its a 5th level spell. Meaning you need at least a 9th level Cleric to cast it. That's normally considered the high priests of large churches/cathedrals/synagogues/mosques/etc.

Second it takes 10 minutes to cast for 9 rounds of questions. Assuming you rule it as one question a round (which is fair for six seconds) that's 9 questions to narrow it down.

Third, you just spent 500 gp to cast that spell. Double or triple that if you need more than 9 rounds of questions.

The idea that this evil empire has multiple 9th level casters ready and available with multiple communes prayed for, and that much capital to waste finding some 3rd level mooks is patently ridiculous. Because if the evil commander has a bunch of 9th level cleric and orders them to "deal" with the problem, there are a bunch of better ways than commune spamming.

The players are 3rd level. I'm assuming there is some long term goal for them to get high level and take down the evil empire. But right now, they should be dealt with as they are now. 3rd level mooks.


Yeah, Commune is a bit absurd, but to be fair, 8th level spells are worse. If the empire is so determined, Commune is an efficient way to solve the problem.

[Gallowglass]

I got it! Psyren talking about how governmental entities can arbitrarily assign numbers or names to copses of trees on a mountainside and then the gods will decide to use them made me realize the perfect solution to using commune cheaply!


Evil Commander: "Fine, here's a segmented map of the mountainside. I had my manticore squadron do a google map flyover with the best mapmakers in the kingdom to get it as accurate as possible. Now use commune the way we explained it to you."

Cleric: "Yes sir. I just need the 500 gp of incense then."

Evil Commander: "oh my god. All right. What's the cheapest stuff you got?'

Cleric: "Uh I got come copper a pound patchouli?"

Evil Commander: "Great. Fetch the royal taxman."

Evil Taxman: "I'm here."

Evil Commander: "What? How? Where did you? You know what. Never mind. Great. Let it be written and noted that I, Evil Commander, hereby level a 500 gp tax on each pound of Patchouli. To be immediately rendered."

Evil Taxman: "Got it."

Evil Commander: "Okay, cast your spell."

10 minutes, 9 rounds later

Cleric: "Got it. Sector 15-6-b-24"

Evil Commander: "Wonderful. Taxman. I hereby rescind the tax on the patchouli."

Evil Taxman: "Roger that."

Evil Commander: *cracks knuckles* "righteo." Looks over at a collection of level appropriate guardsmen and mercenaries who have casually standing by in the corner "Lets teleport you guys out there and get those ash-holes."

[Gallowglass]

let them acquire some kind of loot that the Empire supplied. Something they'll hold onto. Like a Campfire bead. No party will discard one of those, it being a Wondrous item, and they will get a lot of use out of it. Also it's such a pedestrian item, they'll never considering that it's being used against them.


True Story:

Had a group going into a buried tomb of a long dead race of fire worshipers. We were on the trail of another group who had gone through before them. We found a room circled by pillars and in between the pillars were braziers that were smoking but not lit. The alchemist decided to throw his campfire bead onto one of the braziers to see what would happen. He figured the group they were pursuing had extinguished them (he was right) and that if they wanted them extinguished, perhaps our party would want them lit (he was so, so wrong.) That re-lit the braziers and activated the half devil half fire elemental guardians who wrecked the party, until we got away.

But the campfire bead was infused with infernal energy. Later that night, it rolled out of the brazier and rolled after the alchemist. For the rest of the campaign, the campfire bead would attack at inopportune moments. The alchemist used to wake at night with a start imagining he heard the rolling, the ceaseless rolling of the bead growing closer... closer.... His nemesis. That infernal bead! THE INFERNAL BEAD!!!

[noob]

I got it! Psyren talking about how governmental entities can arbitrarily assign numbers or names to copses of trees on a mountainside and then the gods will decide to use them made me realize the perfect solution to using commune cheaply!


Evil Commander: "Fine, here's a segmented map of the mountainside. I had my manticore squadron do a google map flyover with the best mapmakers in the kingdom to get it as accurate as possible. Now use commune the way we explained it to you."

Cleric: "Yes sir. I just need the 500 gp of incense then."

Evil Commander: "oh my god. All right. What's the cheapest stuff you got?'

Cleric: "Uh I got come copper a pound patchouli?"

Evil Commander: "Great. Fetch the royal taxman."

Evil Taxman: "I'm here."

Evil Commander: "What? How? Where did you? You know what. Never mind. Great. Let it be written and noted that I, Evil Commander, hereby level a 500 gp tax on each pound of Patchouli. To be immediately rendered."

Evil Taxman: "Got it."

Evil Commander: "Okay, cast your spell."

10 minutes, 9 rounds later

Cleric: "Got it. Sector 15-6-b-24"

Evil Commander: "Wonderful. Taxman. I hereby rescind the tax on the patchouli."

Evil Taxman: "Roger that."

Evil Commander: *cracks knuckles* "righteo." Looks over at a collection of level appropriate guardsmen and mercenaries who have casually standing by in the corner "Lets teleport you guys out there and get those ash-holes."

there is a thing to understand: with commune you tell stuff to your god so you can say "is it in this space represented by this map?"
meanwhile the cost is not something you pay to your god: it is instead the intrinsic rules of magic who define the cost: if it was supposed to be an offering to the god then ignore material components(the upgraded version of eschew material components) would not allow a cleric to not give an offering to their deity.

[Psyren]

I got it! Psyren talking about how governmental entities can arbitrarily assign numbers or names to copses of trees on a mountainside and then the gods will decide to use them

Please dont put words in my mouth, I didnt do that to you :smallannoyed:

Discern Location is an arcane spell, gods don't have to be involved at all. The place they're in just needs a name, it says nothing about where that name has to come from. Indeed, it even says it returns building names, and last time I checked mortals are usually the ones naming buildings, not gods.

[SquidFighter]

The joke revolved around the idea that values can be attributed to items. You know, like in the real world. Or like the way names can be attributed to places to use divinations more effectively.

Which implies a possible answer to such divinations could be the long-forgotten names the Elder Elves of yore gave the place when they found the place over five millenia ago. You know, the DM screwing with you.

[Gallowglass]

The joke revolved around the idea that values can be attributed to items. You know, like in the real world. Or like the way names can be attributed to places to use divinations more effectively.

Which implies a possible answer to such divinations could be the long-forgotten names the Elder Elves of yore gave the place when they found the place over five millenia ago. You know, the DM screwing with you.

I'm glad someone got my joke.

[Psyren]

The joke revolved around the idea that values can be attributed to items. You know, like in the real world. Or like the way names can be attributed to places to use divinations more effectively.

Which implies a possible answer to such divinations could be the long-forgotten names the Elder Elves of yore gave the place when they found the place over five millenia ago. You know, the DM screwing with you.

The spell specifically says you find the creature. Revealing its location in a format the caster cant possibly recognize is an interesting houserule choice, but nothing more.

[Gallowglass]

Which implies a possible answer to such divinations could be the long-forgotten names the Elder Elves of yore gave the place when they found the place over five millenia ago. You know, the DM screwing with you.

Wizard: "Uh my spell says "In the Grove of The Dryad Pontiferel, the forest of Sharn"

Fighter: "Where's that?"

Wizard: "Hell if I know"

Bard: "Sharn was an elven kingdom that fell 5000 years ago"

Wizard: "*sigh* that's what I get for plundering my spell from the ancient tome of the elf wizard Gloriferan. He must've been Sharnese. So his spell is based on his geographic knowledge"

Fighter: "Uh huh. And I'm just the idiot who hits things with a sword."

[Malroth]

This sounds like a plot hook to me. Somebody's spending the session finding ancient libraries or befriending an elven Lich how about you guys.

[Palanan]

Now that the arguments and comedy routines have died down, would anyone like to answer my question about Commune?

In particular, I'm interested in whether other tables rule it as being able to answer questions about the future. I can see a case either way.

[Inchhighguy]

Now that the arguments and comedy routines have died down, would anyone like to answer my question about Commune?

In particular, I'm interested in whether other tables rule it as being able to answer questions about the future. I can see a case either way.

Sure, you can ask questions about the future....but your deity/contact still only knows what they know.


Discern Location can find just about anyone. As the spell gives crazy details like ''they are in Jole's Tavern", it seems reasonable that it says ''they are in the northern High Forest, one mile south of the Green Glade"

Commune with Nature can be a big help in find people....more so if they are ''unnatural".

Rangers get a couple good hunting spells like Divulge Quarry.

2E had a bunch of such spells: Cricle Dance, Tulrun's tracer, Muirara's map, Shandaril's Tracer, Shoondal's Seeking and Farscry.

There are also dozens of creatures that can be summoned to hunt down people. Invisible Stalkers are the classic, but there are dozens more.

Even just a hand full of birds...or better eagals...can cover a huge area from the air and a simple 'speak with animals' lets one talk to them.

The same is true for rocks and trees...even better the ones around a town.

Of course, ''simple" long range communication is it's own type of divination. You can call Far Watch Tower and tall them to be on the look out for the targets.

[Malroth]

Dieties have a strong but limited knowledge of the future based around their portfolio sense. The stronger the diety and the more the person/event affects the dieties area of influence the farther in the future the diety knows. This Portfolio sense can be lessened by an opposing diety of equal or greater power if that opposing diety knows to do so from their own portfolio sense.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Inchhighguy
Sure, you can ask questions about the future....but your deity/contact still only knows what they know.

Well, this just pushes the question back to whether the entity is able to foretell the future. Since this seems to be a DM call, I’d like to know how other DMs have ruled this—in particular, whether the spell is commonly assumed to cover future events or just present circumstances.


Originally Posted by Malroth
Dieties have a strong but limited knowledge of the future based around their portfolio sense.

This is for Pathfinder, and my understanding is that deities in Pathfinder don’t have a “portfolio sense” in the same way their counterparts did in 3.X.

If they do, I’d love to see the details on that, so I can better understand the assumptions involved. I don’t have any of the main sourcebooks on deities (Inner Sea Gods, Inner Sea Faiths, etc.) so I don’t have a sense of how Pathfinder deities roll.

[Psyren]

Well, this just pushes the question back to whether the entity is able to foretell the future. Since this seems to be a DM call, I’d like to know how other DMs have ruled this—in particular, whether the spell is commonly assumed to cover future events or just present circumstances.

This is for Pathfinder, and my understanding is that deities in Pathfinder don’t have a “portfolio sense” in the same way their counterparts did in 3.X.

All right then - long post incoming.


I feel like I'm about to disappoint you, but PF deities only have one real rule. Planar Adventures:


Deity

The most powerful category among the divine are full-fledged deities. These divinities exist beyond the concept of rules, do not have stat blocks, and thus cannot be slain in simple combat. A deity can change reality, undo any mortal magic, restore or snuff out life, or do any other thing required for the story you wish to tell.

In other words, PF deities don't have mechanics in the same sense as DaD because they don't need to; they're gods. So you don't need an entry somewhere saying "portfolio sense" to know that a god probably can provide information (especially related to their portfolio), or that they might have a better idea than mortals do about the future. Bluntly, it's common sense, or should be.

With that said, even gods have limits, and chief among those is other gods. Planar Adventures again:


The concept of free will hangs at the fundamental core of all living beings, even the choice to have faith in the gods or not. Whenever deities meddle directly in mortal affairs, they damage this agency and erode the concept of free will—what is the point of being able to make your own choices, after all, if an entity infinitely more powerful than you can simply ignore those choices and alter reality at its whim?
...
The simplest explanation for this paradox is to equate divine intervention to an arms race.Were there one divinity, there would be none to question its actions or oppose its needs, but this is not the nature of the Great Beyond. Countless gods, demigods, and quasi deities exist, each of which has interests spread throughout the multiverse and across all Material Plane worlds. This means that every god, even the most secluded or nonconfrontational, has competitors at best and enemies at worst. When a god takes direct action in a world, that god’s opposing forces take note and react. The resulting arms race, with opposing deities taking increasingly overwhelming actions to counter each other, can swiftly spiral out of control and destroy entire worlds, at which point all the hard work of creation is, in effect, undone.

And so the gods follow a largely self-imposed ban on direct interaction with the Material Plane. They leave their concerns and agendas in the capable hands of their faithful and allow their churches to represent the deity’s interests and decide their own fates.

Golarion works similarly to OotS in that regard - if gods play in the sandbox too much, it's bad news for everybody. One result of that would be cracking open Rovagug's prison (i.e. Golarion itself) but things can get far worse than that, with multiple worlds being snuffed out or reality itself coming undone.

Which leads us to Commune. This might also be disappointing, but the whole point of that spell (and most of the "ask reality stuff" divinations) is to provide an in-game way for the players to get the DM to give them a hint. Thus, asking how a DM should use it and what answers they'll get is missing the point a bit. The DM should instead be asking themselves "does the story I want to tell involve my NPCs knowing what to do next? Yes? Then they do. No? Then they don't." And you can explain this by them having pulled off a successful Commune, failing to do so, or any number of other justifications. Or you can use rolls to vary things up a bit - maybe have the empire fail, but each day they get better at figuring out what to ask, so it's a cumulative 5% or 10% chance per day that eventually they pinpoint the PCs' location.

If you're hell-bent on trying to play this out fully, the best you can do is figure out what questions they'd be likely to ask, who they'd be likely to ask their questions to, and what the response is likely to be. That's where portfolios come into play to help you; while a deity could theoretically answer questions about anything truthfully, you can have a bit more confidence in them doing that with questions related to their spheres of influence. In other words, if a given subject is not at all related to their portfolio, then you can expect the caster to get an "Unclear" answer; for example, asking Abadar questions about nature, or asking Gozreh questions about a city's commerce and trade policies.

Even if it the question being asked is directly related to their portfolio though, the divine competition/arms-race mentioned above limits what they can do for you. In-universe, it's likely that these spells were designed with these limits (like "yes or no", "short phrases" or "cryptic rhymes"), as well as chances to fail in the case of things like Augury/Divination, to avoid them being a form of direct intervention that would spark the kind of conflict mentioned in that passage. For example, trying to find escaped fugitives would almost certainly be in Asmodeus, Zon-Kuthon's, Abadar's or Iomedae's interests. But there are other deities that advocate freedom and anarchy running around too, like Cayden Cailean, Desna, and Calistria, so the celestial detente/bureaucracy between them is likely to keep any efforts on both sides from being wholly absolute. As above, mortal agency is the key to keep reality in one piece, so if you have mortal casters that have put in the legwork to earn a silver bullet like Discern Location, they can pinpoint stuff in moments. Those that have not, and are using less precise stuff like Divination and Commune, will land in the ballpark (even if the deity knows where to find exactly what they're looking for) but will likely have to triangulate, and thus at some point will probably have to resort a team of rangers or thief-takers using hounds, skill checks, and the like.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
All right then - long post incoming.

Thanks, the long post is very much appreciated. Nicely explained and quite illuminating.


Originally Posted by Psyren
I feel like I'm about to disappoint you, but PF deities only have one real rule.

You haven’t disappointed me at all, and in fact I prefer this approach to handling deities. I’ve never really bought the notion that a true deity can be represented by a small pile of stats.


Originally Posted by Psyren
That's where portfolios come into play to help you; while a deity could theoretically answer questions about anything truthfully, you can have a bit more confidence in them doing that with questions related to their spheres of influence.

This is very helpful, thanks—answers some questions and gives me some new ideas.


Originally Posted by Psyren
In-universe, it's likely that these spells were designed with these limits (like "yes or no", "short phrases" or "cryptic rhymes"), as well as chances to fail in the case of things like Augury/Divination, to avoid them being a form of direct intervention that would spark the kind of conflict mentioned in that passage.

Also very interesting. The notion of celestial detente is certainly useful for explaining the hands-off approach of deities in general.

And given this, I have to wonder if there wouldn’t be any sort of divine pushback against an attempt to use Commune as part of a methodical, grid-searching analysis. Some of the suggestions have been very clever in terms of their logic, but from a divine perspective they could be seen as attempts to game the system, especially if it's intended to be deliberately vague.

[Psyren]

And given this, I have to wonder if there wouldn’t be any sort of divine pushback against an attempt to use Commune as part of a methodical, grid-searching analysis. Some of the suggestions have been very clever in terms of their logic, but from a divine perspective they could be seen as attempts to game the system, especially if it's intended to be deliberately vague.

I don't think there would be overt divine pushback. After all, the free will thing still applies - the gods gave mortals those spells so they could use them, after all. But by the same token, a cleric who does nothing to further their deity's cause except sitting at home pestering them with questions will probably get a sign of displeasure after a while.

Ultimately, the conclusion I provided stands - you could use these more imprecise forms of divination to narrow your search area, but then you should probably get off your duff and do some searching - especially if you have the resources of an empire behind you. But even more importantly than that, actually searching gives the PCs a chance for counterplay, and thus agency. That is what you want - right?