I want to make a tanky full caster

[Keeganwilson]

I'm thinking a mix of knowledge cleric 1, adjuration wizard 19. Are there any other builds that could work? My group needs another front liner but I like being a full caster and we already have a full cleric

[LudicSavant]

Have you considered an Agathys Abjurer build or a Hobgoblin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23837856&postcount=45)?

[Trustypeaches]

Abjuration Wizard with a single level dip in either Cleric or Artificer (if your DM allows UA) is going to get you the best results. Basically, you want medium / heavy armor and a shield.

Artificer has the benefit of giving you CON save proficiency while Cleric has excellent 1st level features: Grave and Forge domains are the standouts IMO. Both let you draw from a flexible and powerful list of 1st level spells with prepared spellcasting.

[Greywander]

Cleric 1 / Abjurist wizard X is an excellent way to achieve this.

Generally, for a defensive character I'd recommend the yuan-ti pureblood [Volo], mostly for the advantage on saves against magic, but it also gets you poison immunity, which is a good chunk of nonmagical CON saves. An Abjurist gets a similar ability at 14th level, though it only gives advantage on saves versus spells, not magic. Things like a basilisk's gaze are magical, but not a spell. YMMV if you think it's worth it. It could free you up for a different wizard subclass, like War Magic [XGtE]. A yuan-ti war wizard can be quite tanky, especially with a cleric dip.

Since you'd get spell resistance anyway from the Abjurist subclass, another race you might consider is warforged [WGtE]. With medium armor proficiency, your AC is 13 + DEX mod (max 2) + proficiency bonus, starting at 17 at 1st level and maxing out at 21 at 17th level. This is also without a shield, and doesn't give disadvantage on Stealth.

I've never been too keen on Bladesinger, but they're supposed to be better at melee. For non-wizards, another cleric of a different domain might work. You can never have too many clerics in a party. A Moon druid is also an option, as is a Draconic sorcerer. Not sure if warlocks count as full casters for you, but Blade pact or hexblade (or both) are a thing. Swords bard, as well. Lots of options for full casters that can go into melee.

Really, if you want to be front line, just try to get medium/heavy armor and a shield, have good saving throws (Resilient and Shield Master help here), and make sure your HP isn't crap. Booming Blade is great if you're using a melee weapon and don't get extra attack, but it might be better to rely on spell attacks than weapon attacks if your STR or DEX aren't too high. If you're going melee, I'd definitely recommend trying to get either Word of Radiance or Thunderclap, depending on your class, as they'll give you some spammable AoE.

[LudicSavant]

Noteworthy options:

Hobgoblin: This is about as tanky as a Wizard gets while being a truly full caster (e.g. no delays to spell progression whatsoever. You get your Fireball at 5, not 6. Your Contingency at 11, not 12. Etc etc).

Hexblade: 1 level dip will get you Armor of Agathys (which has fantastic synergy with Abjurer since your Arcane Ward takes damage before temp HP), Hexblade's Curse, and a regenerating slot for Shield/Absorb Elements. If you go for a 2nd level, you also get access to Armor of Shadows, which will let you swiftly recharge your Arcane Ward between combats.

Cleric: 1 level dip will get you your armor and shield proficiency and a useful selection of first level spells and cantrips. You'll also pick up a domain feature; some notable ones include Forge (for an all day +1 weapon or armor buff), Knowledge (for two skill proficiences / Expertise in those proficiencies), and Order (great synergy with Rogues and similar characters).

[Raxxius]

There's a post here with the Iron Wizard, a Hobgoblin build.

It looks really solid, I'd check that out.

Edit: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23837856&postcount=45

Not mine, credit the poster.

[MrStabby]

I think the errata on Magic Initiate no longer prohibits you casting the level 1 spell you learn from other slots. This does make something like Armour of Agathys more accessible through a feat rather than having to dip for it. Is it worth it? Well it can make you really tanky...

On the other hand you get this with hexblade, and you get armour, more HP...

Hexblade dip on a lore bard could be good - OK armour, shield spell and the slots to support multiple uses, armour of Agathys, SAD... Lore bard just to let you get magical secrets at level 7 - letting you pick up tools like spirit guardians that work well with this type of build.

[Keeganwilson]

Thanks for the suggestions!

[MaxWilson]

I'm thinking a mix of knowledge cleric 1, adjuration wizard 19. Are there any other builds that could work? My group needs another front liner but I like being a full caster and we already have a full cleric

Forge Cleric 1/Enchanter X is fantastic fun from level 3 onwards really. Hypnotic Gaze is incredibly useful for an at-will ability. It costs your action but not your concentration (so compatible with maintaining Hypnotic Pattern/Fear/Wall of Force), and it lasts indefinitely (no repeated saves), works even if you're invisible and have your hands full of grappled enemies, etc. Forgechanters always have something useful to do in combat, and they frequently turn the tide of battle.

Abjurors are overrated unless you're facing a lot of high-level spellcasters in small groups, e.g. you're a lich-hunter. Vs. large groups (hag coven) you don't have enough reactions to Counterspell everything anyway, nor enough spell slots to do so. But so many things in 5E just outright ignore Counterspell anyway (beholder eyes, Abominable Yeti gaze, dragon breath, etc.) that disabling the enemy with Hypnotic Gaze is far stronger than Counterspell ability check bonuses 95% of the time IMO. (And Arcane Ward, well, it's a small extra HP pool but nothing to write home about.)

[Yunru]

Bladesingers are good if you don't want to be multiclassing.

[diplomancer]

Deep gnomes abjurers with the deep gnome magic feat are very solid.

[Wildarm]

I'm thinking a mix of knowledge cleric 1, adjuration wizard 19. Are there any other builds that could work? My group needs another front liner but I like being a full caster and we already have a full cleric

Lore Bard X could be a pretty tanky pure caster but it takes some investment. Poach Armor of Agathys and Aid. Cast both with your highest level slots. It will had a significant amount of durability to you and make you more tanky. Start with 13 Dex and grab moderately armored at level 4. Good AC for a bard and with the extra HP and cutting words you should do well in the front lines. Slower CHA progression is the tradeoff. No need to attack anything, just use vicious mockery and control spells to shape the battlefield, draw aggro against you and let your allies take things down.

[Man_Over_Game]

I mean, Moon Druid is exactly that.

For a few more, non-Cleric options, you could go:

Draconic Sorcerer Dwarf with the Tough feat. Sorcerers have a lot of melee spells.

Hexblade Warlock, or any Warlock with Medium Armor.

Tempest Cleric/Storm Sorcerer hybrid.

Valor Bard with War Caster (Uses magic instead of Opportunity Attacks).

[Sigreid]

Deep gnome Forge Cleric 1/Abjuror X with the racial feat is about as thorough of an abuse of the tanky wizard concept I can think of.

[Man_Over_Game]

[...]abuse of the tanky wizard concept[...]

And this is why you don't have any friends.

[Sigreid]

And this is why you don't have any friends.

There's better reasons than that for me to not have any friends.

[Man_Over_Game]

There's better reasons than that for me to not have any friends.

Uh, no there isn't. Infinite Abjuration Ward is some cheesewhiz horsesh** that would definitely break a friendship up.

BLACK TEXT MEANS FOR REALSIES

[MrStabby]

Draconic Sorcerer Dwarf with the Tough feat. Sorcerers have a lot of melee spells.



So lots of hit points... but rubbish recovery from hit dice relative to total pool.

[Potato_Priest]

Abjurors are overrated unless you're facing a lot of high-level spellcasters in small groups, e.g. you're a lich-hunter. Vs. large groups (hag coven) you don't have enough reactions to Counterspell everything anyway, nor enough spell slots to do so. But so many things in 5E just outright ignore Counterspell anyway (beholder eyes, Abominable Yeti gaze, dragon breath, etc.) that disabling the enemy with Hypnotic Gaze is far stronger than Counterspell ability check bonuses 95% of the time IMO. (And Arcane Ward, well, it's a small extra HP pool but nothing to write home about.)

Don’t abjurors get advantage on saves against spells/ resistance to damage from spells? Seems like that’s definitely worth having on a tank.

[Sigreid]

Uh, no there isn't. Infinite Abjuration Ward is some cheesewhiz horsesh** that would definitely break a friendship up.

BLACK TEXT MEANS FOR REALSIES


Eh,I was pretty up front about it being an abuse of the rules and concept.

[MaxWilson]

Don’t abjurors get advantage on saves against spells/ resistance to damage from spells? Seems like that’s definitely worth having on a tank.

You run into the exact same issue there as with Counterspell: blasting magic is weak for its cost in 5E, so anything tough is usually not going to be using spells anyway, making your resistance worthless in that situation. At the risk of repeating myself: beholder eyes, Abominable Yeti gaze, dragon breath, etc., will totally ignore your resistance (and Ancient Paladin resistance), because none of these things are spells. (And for the ones that are spells, like Fireball spells from Flameskulls and Hobgoblin Devastators, Absorb Elements would give you resistance anyway, so it's really just saving you a first-level spell slot and your reaction. Not that you're likely to be fighting Flameskulls at 14th level anyway, when that Abjuror ability comes online.)

Sure, you'll have resistance against a lich's Meteor Swarm, if you ever face a lich that's been tweaked to have Meteor Swarm, but all the rest of the time you'll be wishing you'd just played an Enchanter instead so you could use your best abilities constantly instead of once in a blue moon. Or at least, I would.

[Damon_Tor]

Hobgoblin: This is about as tanky as a Wizard gets while being a truly full caster (e.g. no delays to spell progression whatsoever. You get your Fireball at 5, not 6. Your Contingency at 11, not 12. Etc etc).



I guess I'm not sure what the appeal here is. Light armor proficiency isn't going to do better than mage armor, and it relies on a dex investment. The mountain dwarf seems like the better choice: they start with -1 int relative to the hobgoblin, but they make up for it with not needing dex past 14.

[MaxWilson]

I guess I'm not sure what the appeal here is. Light armor proficiency isn't going to do better than mage armor, and it relies on a dex investment. The mountain dwarf seems like the better choice: they start with -1 int relative to the hobgoblin, but they make up for it with not needing dex past 14.

Presumably the point is to take Moderately Armored at level 4, which gets you up to AC 19 (half-plate + Dex + shield), unlike the equivalent mountain dwarf's AC 17.

[LudicSavant]

I guess I'm not sure what the appeal here is. Light armor proficiency isn't going to do better than mage armor, and it relies on a dex investment. The mountain dwarf seems like the better choice: they start with -1 int relative to the hobgoblin, but they make up for it with not needing dex past 14.

The link would have cleared this right up for you, but here's the tl;dr

Mountain Dwarf: Has Medium Armor (base 17 AC). Needs 14 Dex. Would need to spend an ASI on Int just to catch up to where the Hobgoblin started at level 1. 25 ft move. Poison resistance.
Hobgoblin: Has Medium Armor plus a shield (base 19 AC). Needs 13 Dex (gets +1 from their first ASI, which is Moderately Armored). 30 ft move. Saving Face (no action +5 to a d20 roll, after seeing roll, per short rest).

[SVamp]

Bladesingers are good if you don't want to be multiclassing.

Tanky casters I like:

- bladesingers
- sorcerer with a hexblade dip , ideally divine so you can turtle up with spirit guardians etc.
- forge cleric w enchanter
- hexblade with abjurer (feels horribly like cheating to create infinite hps spamming mage armour for free from warlock but it’s a legit build) , agathys rocks
- 2 paladin / rest sorcerer , player as a front line caster (bonus, you can melee on boss fights when the thing has legendary saves : spirit guardians, holy weapon or shadow blade, quicken & twinned BB, smite ftw)

[WhiteWolf]

A build I'm currently playing is Fighter 1/Bard X. I know it's not strictly a full caster and is a bit MAD if you want to go str based attacks and wear plate armour but I thought I'd chip in regardless as I'm having a great time with the character and he really is the tank of the group. First level fighter kinda screws you on the skills and delays all spells by one level but if/when you reach Lvl 20 you're only missing out on one 7th level spell slot and the crappy bard capstone ability. In exchange you get 2 extra hp at 1st level (seems insignificant but at lvls 1-4 can be a literal life saver), heavy armour proficiency, shields, all martial weapons, a fighting style (defence for full tank mode), second wind (1d10+1 hp as a bonus action) and proficiency in con saving throws which is great for maintaining concentration whilst in melee. If you can put up with being a level behind with spells it's great. You can either go valour for extra attack at lvl 7 (delayed by one from the fighter dip) and the combat inspiration etc. or lore for extra magical secrets, giving you more spell options for increasing tanky-ness (shield is a good one). Other colleges are also good, with the fighter dip you don't have pick valour to survive melee. If you're starting above lvl 1 this build is a bit better as you can cast right from the get go, rather than waiting to hit lvl 2.

My build (currently lvl 7) is half-orc, defence fighting style, college of valour, mainly focuses on str based melee weapon damage and healing/utility spells. Using an amulet of protection and +1 shield, combined with defence fighting style gives AC 23. Managed to get a friendly NPC wizard to teach him the shield spell and is now almost untouchable.

Hope this is relevant and maybe gives you an idea or two?

[Vogie]

Obviously the normal "Iron Man" builds are Fighter 2 / Wizard X and Paladin 2/ Wizard X. You're 99% of a full caster, save that you have a single 7th level spell slot, instead of 2, at level 20 (as paladin 2 counts as a single level for spell slot advancement). Pushing CON and picking up the Tough feat is probably useful to help your largely d6 hit dice.

Typically, it's Fighter/Abjuration Wizard for the arcane Ward, but I really like Paladin / War Wizard to be able to have an AC of 23 in all fights, before using any spell slots. That's Plate Armor (18), with a shield (+2), Defense fighting style (+1), and Durable Magic (+2) while concentrating (Hello Create Bonfire or Dancing Lights!). You also get the Shield Spell, the Arcane Deflection (+2 AC or +4 saving throw, single attack or spell), and can convert any spell slots into damage via Divine Smite. Since Durable magic works for concentrating on anything, concentrating on Bless for yourself and 2 other members of the party will likely be a standard tactic.

[Man_Over_Game]

When going a draconic sorcerer melee build (not using weapons), what element would help the most?

[LudicSavant]

When going a draconic sorcerer melee build (not using weapons), what element would help the most?

Fire. Easily.

[Man_Over_Game]

Fire. Easily.

I looked through the SRD Fire spells of a Sorcerer.

Seems like the options are basically limited to:

Burning Hands
Scorching Ray
Fireball
Wall of Fire


Eh? It's not bad for a generic fire caster, as they're all pretty easy to use, they just don't really add much to the melee build.

I'll probably have more luck going Fiendlock and picking up the Mage Armor invocation.

[LudicSavant]

Eh?

There are 12 fire damage spells on the Sorcerer's spell list in the player's handbook. There are 21 including spells from XGtE/SCAG. Several of these spells are good ones, regardless of whether you think of any of them as "melee spells" or not.

Just a few of the more notable offerings include things like Green-Flame Blade, Create Bonfire, Fire Bolt, Fireball, Meteor Swarm, and Minute Meteors.

Additionally, some of the multiclass options commonly taken for melee Sorcerers grant useful fire spells (like Hellish Rebuke).

Other elements sadly have fairly little to offer. I'll list everything they provide, minus "select elemental type" spells like Chromatic Orb (since I'd just be reprinting it over and over).

Acid will grant you the mathematically awful Acid Arrow, Vitriolic Sphere (basically a slower-onset Fireball), and Acid Splash.

Cold will grant you two decent cantrips (Frostbite / Ray of Frost), Ice Knife (which will have disadvantage to fire in melee), Snilloc's Snowball Swarm (which just sucks), Ice Storm and Cone of Cold (comparable niche to things like Fireball; Ice Storm is a bit more kitey), and Investiture of Ice.

Before someone thinks "what about picking up Armor of Agathys?" it doesn't work with the Dragon Sorcerer's subclass abilities (see the errata). Cold Sorc is no better at AoA than anyone else.

Poison will get you Ray of Sickness, Cloudkill, Poison Spray, and Infestation.

Lightning will get you Lightning Lure, Shocking Grasp, Witch Bolt (one of the worst spells in the game), Lightning Bolt (worse than Fireball), Storm Sphere (nice spell, but your L6 ability will only affect one target), and Chain Lightning.

Fire will provide Green-Flame Blade (which a melee character obviously cares about), Fire Bolt, Create Bonfire, Burning Hands, Aganazzar's Scorcher, Scorching Ray, Web (technically counts as a spell that deals fire damage), Fireball, Flame Arrows, Melf's Minute Meteors, Wall of Fire, Immolation, Investiture of Flame, Delayed Blast Fireball, Fire Storm, Incendiary Cloud, and Meteor Swarm.

Fire both has a larger selection of spells than other elements, and some of the best individual ones. It also provides resistance to a more common damage type as a cherry on top.

So like I said. Fire. Easily.

[suplee215]

My personal choice is mountain dwarf abjuration wizard with heavily armored feat.

[MaxWilson]

Before someone thinks "what about picking up Armor of Agathys?" it doesn't work with the Dragon Sorcerer's subclass abilities (see the errata). Cold Sorc is no better at AoA than anyone else.

Off topic, it is also annoying that Red or White Dragon Sorc is (almost) no better at Fire Shield than anyone else, because you only get the bonus on "one damage roll". Feh. (Ditto Evoker, unless you Overchannel Fire Shield.) Conceptually it seems like that should work, but it doesn't.

[LudicSavant]

Off topic, it is also annoying that Red or White Dragon Sorc is (almost) no better at Fire Shield than anyone else, because you only get the bonus on "one damage roll". Feh. (Ditto Evoker, unless you Overchannel Fire Shield.) Conceptually it seems like that should work, but it doesn't.

Also annoying is that Fire Shield isn't even on the Sorcerer spell list.

[MaxWilson]

Also annoying is that Fire Shield isn't even on the Sorcerer spell list.

Whoops, overlooked that. :) That's even more annoying.

[Helldin87]

Moon Druid. Doesn't get tankier than that. Also a full caster which is often neglected when people consider the moon druid. You notably won't have shield or other reaction abilities but nothing stops you from using buff spells prior to shifting.

Another favorite of mine is a Pally 2/Moon Druid X. This gives access to smite (which works off your shifted forms attacks). Now you are a nearly-full caster with plenty of uses for those spell slots and the durability to make it through a fight. Also you have a lot of the out of combat advantages of being a full caster (rituals and a lot of utility spells from the druid list).

[redwizard007]

Nobody has suggested a Githyanki yet? You guys are missing the boat.

[suplee215]

Does a warlock count as a full caster? If so you can make a pretty tanky fiend warlock with a race that grants a resistance or two combined with that patron's ability plus fire shield, armor of agathys and a few others could make you resist quite a lot and get tons of temp hit points.

[Sigreid]

Does a warlock count as a full caster? If so you can make a pretty tanky fiend warlock with a race that grants a resistance or two combined with that patron's ability plus fire shield, armor of agathys and a few others could make you resist quite a lot and get tons of temp hit points.

If you use the tiefling racial feat that grants resistances, you can have quite a few on one character.

[Mjolnirbear]

.

Fire will provide Green-Flame Blade (which a melee character obviously cares about), Fire Bolt, Create Bonfire, Burning Hands, Aganazzar's Scorcher, Scorching Ray, Web (technically counts as a spell that deals fire damage), Fireball, Flame Arrows, Melf's Minute Meteors, Wall of Fire, Immolation, Investiture of Flame, Delayed Blast Fireball, Fire Storm, Incendiary Cloud, and Meteor Swarm.
.
... How does Web technically count as doing fire damage??

[Man_Over_Game]

... How does Web technically count as doing fire damage??

Uh...

"The webs are flammable and a 5-foot cube burns away in a single round. If a creature is caught in the fire, it takes 2d4 fire damage. "

I guess?

[suplee215]

If you use the tiefling racial feat that grants resistances, you can have quite a few on one character.

I recently made an Aasimar Fiend warlock as a DM as a foil to a player character and it is fun. Necro, Radiant resist from aasimar plus the free any resist from fiend plus I had investiture of flame for another 2 and even had on fire shield even if that was pointless. and no one wanted to hit that character after the fighter hit it 4 times.

[LudicSavant]

If you use the tiefling racial feat that grants resistances, you can have quite a few on one character.

Yup. Fire Resistance, Cold Resistance, Poison Resistance, and a fourth Resistance to any type of your choice from the Fiendlock's ability. You can use divinations to help determine which resistance type will be most useful to set.

You can tack Flames of Phlegethos and Hellish Rebuke on there for even more retribution damage.

[Teaguethebean]

I would recommend if your DM allows it stone sorcerer. It is basically a full caster paladin just with a little less burst damage through smites.

[BoringInfoGuy]

I'm thinking a mix of knowledge cleric 1, adjuration wizard 19. Are there any other builds that could work? My group needs another front liner but I like being a full caster and we already have a full cleric
Knowledge Cleric 1 gets you more languages, and a couple more skills with double proficiency bonus. Nice features, but nothing to help with front line tanking.

The domain spells are also unhelpful. Identify is on the wizard spell list, so no gain for you there. Command requires a save, but how much can you invest in Wisdom to increase your Cleric Save DC? You’ll want high Int because wizard, high Con so that you can survive a big hit, and good Dex to improve your AC in medium armor. That makes it difficult to put more than the minimum Wisdom 13 to make the multi class requirements. With only a DC 11 for the save, it’s not worth the slot.

Take a look instead at Life Domain.

It grants Heavy Armor Proficiency. Note that the better armors require 13 or 15 Str. 15 in Strength is more than you probably want to invest in what is typically a dump stat for wizards. But perhaps by the time you can afford Full Plate you could acquire Gauntlets of Ogre Strength.

The Life Domain spells for 1st lvl are Bless and Cure Wounds. While any cleric has access to these spells, Bless is one of the best buff spells in the game and a top pick for your concentration use. You would probably be picking it anyway. The bonus to saving throws will definitely support tanking.

Cure Wounds lacks the action economy of Healing Word, but trying to frontline with D6 HD means you can’t take many hits. You definitely want at least one healing spell prepped at all times, so this has that covered.

Again, I’m assuming just a 13 Wisdom, which would only let you prep two non domain spells. With only four Cleric spells prepared total, you want the two you are stuck with to be useful. And both these spells support front line tanking.

With those bases covered, you can prepare Healing Word for bonus action Healing, and maybe Shield of Faith, for when increasing your AC is more valuable than improving attack rolls and saving throws.

Then there is the Life Domain 1st level feature, Disciple of Life. This increases the healing done by your healing spells by 2 + the spell level.

So even assuming only a 13 Wisdom giving a +1 modifier, your 1st level Cure Wounds is doing 1D8 + 1(wis Mod) + 3 (DoL 1st level spell) = 1D8 + 4. In comparison, most standard array Clerics at 1st level only do 1D8 + 3.

And this ability is tied to the spell slot used, NOT cleric level.

Upcast Cure Wounds to 2nd level slot and it does 2D8+5. At this point, your heals are as strong as any non Life Domain Cleric with a Wisdom of 20.

Even with minimum Wisdom, DoL makes your heals better than just about any other clerics.

One last thing to remember, Life Domain is unique in that ANY non evil deity can have Life Cleric followers. So if you want, you can chose to be a Cleric of Azuth, god of Wizards or Mystra, goddess of magic, even though neither have the Life Domain in their portfolio.

TL;DR

If you want to use a one level Cleric dip to make your wizard a tanky full caster, then you should be seriously considering Life Domain. Every aspect of its first level abilities support the concept with minimum investment.