Planar Binding and dealing with fiends with raw strenght

[Conradine]

Some questions about 3.5 Planar Binding.

1- If the outsider is killed , he's done or he's exiled to Abyss?
2- Does fiends feel, or more precisely, take into consideration pain?

In short, can fiends be coherced into obeying by raw strenght and threats of torture and / or death?

[Segev]

Outsiders typically reform on their home planes after some time, but the amount of time it takes post-death is variable and potentially lengthy.

Yes, you can try to coerce a fiend into accepting a bargain based on threats and torture, but inflicting it without accidentally freeing them from the circle is tricky.

[Conradine]

Well, one should take this route only if he's much stronger than the fiend itself.

[Psyren]

And even if you successfully torture them without breaking the circle - well, now you've just tortured an immortal outsider. Grats?

[RoboEmperor]

Some questions about 3.5 Planar Binding.

1- If the outsider is killed , he's done or he's exiled to Abyss?
2- Does fiends feel, or more precisely, take into consideration pain?

In short, can fiends be coherced into obeying by raw strenght and threats of torture and / or death?

Planar Binding is Slavery
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?573043-Planar-Binding-is-SLAVERY

How do you enslave creatures? By threatening them with death.

[Crake]

How do you enslave creatures? By threatening them with death.

Historically that's not been true. The mere threat of death is rarely enough to actually make someone into a slave. Even with planar binding it doesn't hold true, since the spell requires no such threats, and instead forces a pact with the caster that must be adhered to.

[noob]

You can threaten an outsider to go kill it in his homeplane if you have an easy way to plane-shift you and the outsider.

[Crake]

You can threaten an outsider to go kill it in his homeplane if you have an easy way to plane-shift you and the outsider.

You might have trouble doing that while it's in a dimensionally anchored magic circle, without actually breaking the magic circle.

[noob]

You might have trouble doing that while it's in a dimensionally anchored magic circle, without actually breaking the magic circle.

I guess that step 1 is going to baator
Step 2: bind outsiders from baator in baator.
Step 3: now you can threaten them of death

[Crake]

I guess that step 1 is going to baator
Step 2: bind outsiders from baator in baator.
Step 3: now you can threaten them of death

Yeah, but now you're summoning outsiders on their home plane where you're likely to encounter others of their kind who are more than happy to rip you a new one at any given moment if they catch you.

[Kaleph]

Some questions about 3.5 Planar Binding.

1- If the outsider is killed, he's done or he's exiled to Abyss?
2- Does fiends feel, or more precisely, take into consideration pain?

In short, can fiends be coherced into obeying by raw strenght and threats of torture and / or death?

Not all AD&D fluff was transferred into 3.5, so you won't find all the answers you need in the manual of the planes. Anyhow you are more or less safe if you consider the following:

"Calling" brings physically an outsider onto the material plane (or wherever you are when you cast the spell),
A called creature will therefore feel pain when wounded as if it were on its native plane, and may experience "death"
Anyhow, when the called outsiders dies it goes back to its native plane without any consequence besides being banned from the material plane for 100 years and 1 day
If the outsider dies on its native plane, its death is more "real", but anyhow it reforms as a lower-level outsider after 1 or 2 centuries


These infos can hopefully help you to make a decision regarding your question. Anyhow don't forget that the general rules of planar binding aren't necessarily overriden by torture or threats, so what you could realistically get is "a bonus of +0 to +6" to the opposed charisma check. Also, as was already pointed out, it's hard to torture an outsider when inside the pentacle, since there's a high risk of setting him free instead; a good strategy is to buff your charisma check as much as possible, instead. I've recently seen a post on this forum, where a user pointed out that the "iron sign" of the nar demonbinder bypasses all the limitations of a standard dimensional anchor/magic circle combo and let you in particular interact with the bound creature without risk of releasing it.

[Crake]

Not all AD&D fluff was transferred into 3.5, so you won't find all the answers you need in the manual of the planes. Anyhow you are more or less safe if you consider the following:

"Calling" brings physically an outsider onto the material plane (or wherever you are when you cast the spell),
A called creature will therefore feel pain when wounded as if it were on its native plane, and may experience "death"
Anyhow, when the called outsiders dies it goes back to its native plane without any consequence besides being banned from the material plane for 100 years and 1 day
If the outsider dies on its native plane, its death is more "real", but anyhow it reforms as a lower-level outsider after 1 or 2 centuries

I don't think even half of those are correct by 3.5 lore standards...

The first one is obviously correct, the second one seems to imply however that creatures normally doesn't feel pain when it's not on it's native plane? The third one is also incorrect at least for demons and devils, they actually follow the fourth statement when killed outside of their native plane, if they are killed on their native plane, that is when they recieve a true death unless they're brought back through magical means of course, like limited wish or the like. In my setting most fiends on the material plane get at least a small following who are capable of hitting the DC40 sacrifice check to limited wish as a contingency to bring them back if anything happens to them.

[Kaleph]

I don't think even half of those are correct by 3.5 lore standards...

The first one is obviously correct
Well, we agree.



the second one seems to imply however that creatures normally doesn't feel pain when it's not on it's native plane?
No, no implication was meant, simply the OP was explicitly asking if they feel pain - the obvious answer is yes, since they are called and therefore physically there.



The third one is also incorrect at least for demons and devils, they actually follow the fourth statement when killed outside of their native plane
I would have bet that 3.5 didn't dig so deeply in the planar laws as AD&D; this was true for some time, but now I double-checked and noticed that the Fiendish Codex does, as you point out (I guess I owe you a beer now). Nevertheless there's still a misunderstanding - they do not actually follow what I've meant in my fourth statement. When killed outside of their native plane, devils and demons still suffer no ill consequence (i.e. they do not reform as 2HD outsiders but they keep their original status), although in 3.5 they are totally out of play for one century (well, 99 years actually). That's what I've meant when I suggested that they could as well not care about beeing slain on another plane - although their superiors could become uneasy if their defeat means that they didn't succed in their tasks.



if they are killed on their native plane, that is when they recieve a true death unless they're brought back through magical means of course, like limited wish or the like. In my setting most fiends on the material plane get at least a small following who are capable of hitting the DC40 sacrifice check to limited wish as a contingency to bring them back if anything happens to them.
This is what I've meant with my 4th statement. I guess this concept isn't contradicted by 3.5 rules (but as I said, I base this statement mainly on the "manual of the plane" lore, so it could be now outdated). Outsider don't become petitioners but are rejoined with the matter of their outer plane, then their destiny isn't specified. In 2E I'm quite sure that it was supposed that, from the matter that once was the slained outsider, a new devil/demon (of the lowest available category, e.g. lemure) is again created after some centuries. That's the fluff that I still use in my campaigns.

[RoboEmperor]

Historically that's not been true. The mere threat of death is rarely enough to actually make someone into a slave. Even with planar binding it doesn't hold true, since the spell requires no such threats, and instead forces a pact with the caster that must be adhered to.

Threats, negotiations, pacts, etc. They're all just fluff so you go with whatever you and your DM agrees with. Threats however is a completely valid option for fiends. They are always bullied into servitude by their own kind.


I guess that step 1 is going to baator
Step 2: bind outsiders from baator in baator.
Step 3: now you can threaten them of death

This is illegal. The Calling subtype excludes calling creatures from the same plane as you.


Calling

A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.

[Crake]

This is illegal. The Calling subtype excludes calling creatures from the same plane as you.

That's not a limiting factor though, it doesn't say they EXCLUSIVELY do so. The planar binding spell itself targets an outsider or elemental, not an extraplanar creature, that's gate's limitation, but even then, gate's limitation doesn't necessarily mean the creature has to be on a different plane, merely that the creature can't be native to this one.

Your ruling means that you can't bind couatls on the material, nor most half fiends/celestials or planetouched, which a lot of lore strongly suggests otherwise.

[RoboEmperor]

That's not a limiting factor though, it doesn't say they EXCLUSIVELY do so. The planar binding spell itself targets an outsider or elemental, not an extraplanar creature, that's gate's limitation, but even then, gate's limitation doesn't necessarily mean the creature has to be on a different plane, merely that the creature can't be native to this one.

Your ruling means that you can't bind couatls on the material, nor most half fiends/celestials or planetouched, which a lot of lore strongly suggests otherwise.

If we're talking pure RAW I'm right. Spells with the Calling subtype calls creatures from another plane to your plane. This is as explicit as rule texts get. Now if you want to say "another plane" means "including your plane", I don't know. I'm not an English major so I don't know.

[Segev]

To rules lawyer it, even if you can't Call a creature from the plane you're on, just Call a creature that's native to the plane you're on while it's on a different plane. Eve Lynn the Erinyes giving you trouble back home? Go to Baator, cast planar binding to Call her there, and she becomes subject to permadeath at your hands.

[Grek]

An important aspect of Planar Binding that people overlook is that you don't have to make the Charisma checks if you don't want to. If all you wanted was to make an outsider/elemental appear before you for some other purpose, that totally works. Using Planar Binding followed by Charm Monster or Geas is also a legitimate tactic. Making them obey through threats also works. The key point to keep in mind is that while you are allowed to use the Charisma checks to gain control, that isn't the only or even the best option.

[Conradine]

How about building a sturdy cage made of steel and plated in silver all around the Circle of evocation, then having fun with a long bearded spear?

[Kaleph]

An important aspect of Planar Binding that people overlook is that you don't have to make the Charisma checks if you don't want to. If all you wanted was to make an outsider/elemental appear before you for some other purpose, that totally works. Using Planar Binding followed by Charm Monster or Geas is also a legitimate tactic. Making them obey through threats also works. The key point to keep in mind is that while you are allowed to use the Charisma checks to gain control, that isn't the only or even the best option.

As a DM, I would disagree; not saying that you are wrong, but at least it's not the only way to read the spell (and anyhow not mine). The keyword is that you must compel the creature to perform the task. If you use charme/dominate monster, geas or whatever, you don't mind about the compelling power of planar binding; FWIW, this new spell could also break the pentacle, it's irrelevant. The bound creature becomes a normal NPC, which you have just charmed or whatever (if the spell was successful). So, fine.

If instead you rely on the compelling power of planar binding, the only listed method to force a pact with the bound creature is by the charisma check; the spell doesn't enlist other methods, so as a DM I can just say "if it's not written that you can do it, then you cannot" - and I would be legitimately doing my job as DM without houseruling. Actually, I'd specifically rule that a promise by, say, a balor without the charisma-check is simply a lie.

[Segev]

As a DM, I would disagree; not saying that you are wrong, but at least it's not the only way to read the spell (and anyhow not mine). The keyword is that you must compel the creature to perform the task. If you use charme/dominate monster, geas or whatever, you don't mind about the compelling power of planar binding; FWIW, this new spell could also break the pentacle, it's irrelevant. The bound creature becomes a normal NPC, which you have just charmed or whatever (if the spell was successful). So, fine.

If instead you rely on the compelling power of planar binding, the only listed method to force a pact with the bound creature is by the charisma check; the spell doesn't enlist other methods, so as a DM I can just say "if it's not written that you can do it, then you cannot" - and I would be legitimately doing my job as DM without houseruling. Actually, I'd specifically rule that a promise by, say, a balor without the charisma-check is simply a lie.

Creatures can voluntarily fail ability checks. So if you successfully offer it something it really wants, or threaten it with something it fears more than accepting the binding, it can voluntarily fail the ability check to avoid being punished or to gain the reward. The rules on the charisma check, in fact, model the strength of will and stubbornness of the creature vs. the persuasive, intimidating, and personal willpower of the caster. The -6 to +6 shift is about how much the promised rewards, punishments, and the like can typically influence them. The charisma check is your effort to persuade, browbeat, intimidate, or otherwise trick or coerce them into agreeing that what you're offering is good enough to not sit around in the circle, subject to whatever you threatened to do to it. It's a negotiation roll. If you actually offer something so good it'll willingly agree, or threaten something so heinous it will willingly do what you ask to avoid it, then it can voluntarily fail the ability check.

[Crake]

If we're talking pure RAW I'm right. Spells with the Calling subtype calls creatures from another plane to your plane. This is as explicit as rule texts get. Now if you want to say "another plane" means "including your plane", I don't know. I'm not an English major so I don't know.

If this were true then the dragon ally and spirit ally spells become pretty mediocre, since the only dragons you can call from the material plane would be planar dragons who by their very nature lack spellcasting, and there's a huge subset of spirits that come from the material plane (namely literally every single fey, most undead, etc etc).

Personally though, I would say that the spell text supercedes the "rules" of the calling subschool (I put rules in quotes, because they aren't really rules as much as just descriptions of the types of things the school tends to do). These spells give you their target, and describe how they function, and none of them make any specific statement about their targets needing to be on a separate plane.


Creatures can voluntarily fail ability checks. So if you successfully offer it something it really wants, or threaten it with something it fears more than accepting the binding, it can voluntarily fail the ability check to avoid being punished or to gain the reward. The rules on the charisma check, in fact, model the strength of will and stubbornness of the creature vs. the persuasive, intimidating, and personal willpower of the caster. The -6 to +6 shift is about how much the promised rewards, punishments, and the like can typically influence them. The charisma check is your effort to persuade, browbeat, intimidate, or otherwise trick or coerce them into agreeing that what you're offering is good enough to not sit around in the circle, subject to whatever you threatened to do to it. It's a negotiation roll. If you actually offer something so good it'll willingly agree, or threaten something so heinous it will willingly do what you ask to avoid it, then it can voluntarily fail the ability check.

Slight nitpick: It's +0 to +6, there's no negs.

[Kaleph]

Creatures can voluntarily fail ability checks. So if you successfully offer it something it really wants, or threaten it with something it fears more than accepting the binding, it can voluntarily fail the ability check to avoid being punished or to gain the reward. The rules on the charisma check, in fact, model the strength of will and stubbornness of the creature vs. the persuasive, intimidating, and personal willpower of the caster. The -6 to +6 shift is about how much the promised rewards, punishments, and the like can typically influence them. The charisma check is your effort to persuade, browbeat, intimidate, or otherwise trick or coerce them into agreeing that what you're offering is good enough to not sit around in the circle, subject to whatever you threatened to do to it. It's a negotiation roll. If you actually offer something so good it'll willingly agree, or threaten something so heinous it will willingly do what you ask to avoid it, then it can voluntarily fail the ability check.

That would still be a charisma check, in the end (I am currently unable to find the RAW for it, but in any case I guess that voluntarily failing an ability check is reasonable at least RAI).

We are making a very theoretical discussion here. Are we assuming that winning the cha-check normally (with bribes and ability buffs) doesn't work, despites the player has multiple chances? So the called creature must have a high cha-bonus, i.e. it's tough to convince. Probably a high level demon/devil, whatever.

So on the one side I'd let the player be creative, because I don't want to limit him that much; on the other side, it must be clear that what he's trying to do is hard and potentially dangerous. What I'd prevent is that the player thinks he has found the wayaround to get rid automatically of the check. Threatening and torture may be arguments, just like offering rewards (as you pointed out), but they are not necessarily a big improvement in the negotiations (or no improvement at all, if the called creature is really that strong and smart).

[RoboEmperor]

If this were true then the dragon ally and spirit ally spells become pretty mediocre, since the only dragons you can call from the material plane would be planar dragons who by their very nature lack spellcasting, and there's a huge subset of spirits that come from the material plane (namely literally every single fey, most undead, etc etc).

Personally though, I would say that the spell text supercedes the "rules" of the calling subschool (I put rules in quotes, because they aren't really rules as much as just descriptions of the types of things the school tends to do). These spells give you their target, and describe how they function, and none of them make any specific statement about their targets needing to be on a separate plane.

Summon subtype. There is no doubt summon subtype is rules not description as it states summons cannot summon creatures, use SLAs whose spell counterpart requires material or xp components, and cannot planar travel. So why is the summon subtype "rules" but the calling subtype a "description"?

I don't think it's that big of a deal as Segev pointed out a simple plane shift solves the problem. And extraplanar dragons kick ass. It is my opinion the pyroclastic dragon is the defacto best dragon in the game because of its 40 DC save-or-die breath that no spell can protect you from (other than being undead or construct, or AMF I guess).

[Grek]

As a DM, I would disagree; not saying that you are wrong, but at least it's not the only way to read the spell (and anyhow not mine). The keyword is that you must compel the creature to perform the task. If you use charme/dominate monster, geas or whatever, you don't mind about the compelling power of planar binding; FWIW, this new spell could also break the pentacle, it's irrelevant. The bound creature becomes a normal NPC, which you have just charmed or whatever (if the spell was successful). So, fine.
That's exactly what I mean, though. If you are confident enough in your mind control magic/blackmail/pure physical strength/forged infernal paperwork/whatever else you want to try that you're willing to forgo any chance at the Charisma checks and risk breaking the pentacle in order to get at your newly arrived Outsider... you can do that and let the dice fall where they may. Your plan isn't guaranteed to work, but it isn't guaranteed to fail either. It simply gets resolved however it would get resolved normally. If your save DC is high enough to charm it, you can charm it. If your biceps are big enough to supplex it, you can supplex it. And if you are intimidating enough that you could actually intimidate the outsider, you can intimidate it and deal with it betraying you when that inevitably happens.

[druid91]

Yeah, but now you're summoning outsiders on their home plane where you're likely to encounter others of their kind who are more than happy to rip you a new one at any given moment if they catch you.

At least in 3.5, use the stronghold builders guide to build a 20x20 box with the plane-shifting mechanic and whatever the palace of the planes had that disguised it from view on the less pleasant planes.

It'd cost a pretty penny, but you'd be able to planeshift to the plane in a well disguised box. Then conjure them up and destroy them if they don't acquiesce.

[Conradine]

About the idea of building a sturdy cage around the circle ( for lesser fiends who cannot teleport )?

[RoboEmperor]

About the idea of building a sturdy cage around the circle ( for lesser fiends who cannot teleport )?

It's legal. Magic Circle is not mandatory at all. You can build a mundane cage and call the creature into the cage.


4th—Dimensional Anchor: This spell is instrumental in preventing creatures that are summoned using the planar binding spells from escaping with teleportation or dimensional
shifting abilities. Any summoner planning to use a planar binding spell would be wise to learn an appropriate magic circle spell to strengthen the trap as well.

Magic Circle is optional.

[Crake]

It's legal. Magic Circle is not mandatory at all. You can build a mundane cage and call the creature into the cage.



Magic Circle is optional.

Planar binding begs to differ:


Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range.


Summon subtype. There is no doubt summon subtype is rules not description as it states summons cannot summon creatures, use SLAs whose spell counterpart requires material or xp components, and cannot planar travel. So why is the summon subtype "rules" but the calling subtype a "description"?

I don't think it's that big of a deal as Segev pointed out a simple plane shift solves the problem. And extraplanar dragons kick ass. It is my opinion the pyroclastic dragon is the defacto best dragon in the game because of its 40 DC save-or-die breath that no spell can protect you from (other than being undead or construct, or AMF I guess).

The summon subschool also has descriptive text, but then it actually makes hard, clear-cut statements about how parts of it's spells function. But even that being said, spells have more specific rules, and thus will override those rules if they are contradictory.

[RoboEmperor]

Planar binding begs to differ:

Notices it says trap and not magic circle.


The summon subschool also has descriptive text, but then it actually makes hard, clear-cut statements about how parts of it's spells function. But even that being said, spells have more specific rules, and thus will override those rules if they are contradictory.

Which part of the spell says you can call creatures from the same plane?

[Kaleph]

That's exactly what I mean, though. If you are confident enough in your mind control magic/blackmail/pure physical strength/forged infernal paperwork/whatever else you want to try that you're willing to forgo any chance at the Charisma checks and risk breaking the pentacle in order to get at your newly arrived Outsider... you can do that and let the dice fall where they may. Your plan isn't guaranteed to work, but it isn't guaranteed to fail either. It simply gets resolved however it would get resolved normally. If your save DC is high enough to charm it, you can charm it. If your biceps are big enough to supplex it, you can supplex it. And if you are intimidating enough that you could actually intimidate the outsider, you can intimidate it and deal with it betraying you when that inevitably happens.

I see. The approach w/o magical compulsions (or similar) is probably worse than the cha-check, so it won't break the game and therefore should fly at any table. It also still requires quite some dice rolling, so if the players are THAT lucky, well let them get what they want. Again, theoretically speaking.

In a practical example that fits the OP's question, though, just threatening the creature would be a very poor strategy - the chance that they just obey when threatened is simply non-existent, and if the PCs attack it instead, they will end up freeing it from the trap sooner or later.

Making a mini-quest to find out a terrible secret of a specific outsider, that alone would be enough to force it (I mean, without any need for a magical compulsion) to accept any pact the PCs would propose, and using planar binding as a mere tool to contact it, it's totally another story.

[RoboEmperor]

I see. The approach w/o magical compulsions (or similar) is probably worse than the cha-check.

Magical Complusion is also worse than the charisma check. One gets dispelled or suppressed by a protection/magic circle against evil. The other is unbreakable and works even in dead magic zones.

[Grek]

Magical Complusion is also worse than the charisma check. One gets dispelled or suppressed by a protection/magic circle against evil. The other is unbreakable and works even in dead magic zones.

There's upsides and downsides. The Charisma check can't be dispelled, but is difficult to accomplish. Hypnotism lets you make them permanently amenable to a single reasonable request, but can only ensnare the weakest of outsiders. Geas does not allow a save, but takes 10 minutes to cast. Charm Monster renders them unwilling to subvert your orders, but limits what you can order them to do. Suggestion only lasts an hour per level, but can have a triggered component. Magic Jar lets you puppet your conjured foe around directly, but is short-lived and quite risky. Animate Dead can make you some wild undead servants, but requires that you kill your bound outsider first. And so on and so forth. You want to have a varied toolbox.

[Segev]

That would still be a charisma check, in the end (I am currently unable to find the RAW for it, but in any case I guess that voluntarily failing an ability check is reasonable at least RAI).

We are making a very theoretical discussion here. Are we assuming that winning the cha-check normally (with bribes and ability buffs) doesn't work, despites the player has multiple chances? So the called creature must have a high cha-bonus, i.e. it's tough to convince. Probably a high level demon/devil, whatever.

So on the one side I'd let the player be creative, because I don't want to limit him that much; on the other side, it must be clear that what he's trying to do is hard and potentially dangerous. What I'd prevent is that the player thinks he has found the wayaround to get rid automatically of the check. Threatening and torture may be arguments, just like offering rewards (as you pointed out), but they are not necessarily a big improvement in the negotiations (or no improvement at all, if the called creature is really that strong and smart).

It's not really a work-around. It's a question of whether the DM is convinced that that's "good enough." I mean, let's say you called up a Xorn and asked it to eat up the scrap metal that litters a battlefield, at its leisure. I wouldn't make you roll a Cha check for that; it's happy to perform that service. You're giving it a lot of free meals!

Or if you call up the vengeful demon which has a personal hatred for Steve the Stevedor, and you ask him to wreak vengeance on Steve, he's almost certainly going to agree.

If the DM doesn't think it's a bargain to which the outsider would agree without question, he goes to the rolling of opposed Charisma. But the DM thinking the proposed bargain is so much to the outsider's liking that it agrees right then and there is possible and reasonable.

[RoboEmperor]

There's upsides and downsides. The Charisma check can't be dispelled, but is difficult to accomplish.

Surge of Fortune makes it a joke to accomplish so the Charisma check wins hands down. Trust me, I've been through this before, and for all the ups and downs the other options have, being completely utterly and totally destroyed by a dispel magic, break enchantment, protection/magic circle against evil, or an AMF/Dead Magic zone is a complete and total deal breaker. If you go down the mind control route that isn't Mindrape a break enchantment is a TPK.

[Kaleph]

It's not really a work-around. It's a question of whether the DM is convinced that that's "good enough." I mean, let's say you called up a Xorn and asked it to eat up the scrap metal that litters a battlefield, at its leisure. I wouldn't make you roll a Cha check for that; it's happy to perform that service. You're giving it a lot of free meals!

Or if you call up the vengeful demon which has a personal hatred for Steve the Stevedor, and you ask him to wreak vengeance on Steve, he's almost certainly going to agree.

If the DM doesn't think it's a bargain to which the outsider would agree without question, he goes to the rolling of opposed Charisma. But the DM thinking the proposed bargain is so much to the outsider's liking that it agrees right then and there is possible and reasonable.

It's not that I disagree in principle, it's that I think we have to circumstantiate it.

Planar ally explictly says that the called outsider may waive any reward if the requested task is something it would accomplish anyhow; planar binding doesn't make similar statements, instead it only explicitly provides a bonus up to +6 to the charisma check.

One of the factors we shouldn't forget is that planar binding (unlike planar ally) is an aggressive act, so the called creature isn't in a very good mood during the negotiations. This could be already a valid reason for a DM to deny any chance of a friendly agreement.

In addition, I guess the RAW for opposed ability/skill checks doesn't allow for a voluntary failure (but I confess I'm not 100% sure on this point), so the DM must also decide that this option is at all viable.

So, up to now, you need two favorable DMs calls. Which is still possible, but that means that the frienldy DM so far has already made an effort to make our life as players very, very easy. When it comes to planar binding, many real-life DMs won't be THAT friendly.

These are the premises.

So, let's go back to the original example. The PC binds a devil, tells it he's gonna kill it, and hopes it will accept any condition he makes. I hold my position: it won't work. He'll probably get a high bonus with a weaker devil, but with a stronger one there's the risk that he gets nothing.

Your examples are more reasonable - but how much are they practical? The first example is just a theoretical excercise, you'll agree. The second one is more tricky, and could be potentially acceptable, but it means that you are calling a specific outsider to do the job. That's totally another story, this outsider is part of the campaign and it's likely that the DM created it with a purpose. Probably you could get its help also without planar binding, just making some subquest etc. Or the DM put it there just for you to planar-bind it, so he basically DECIDED for the campaign's sake that your attempt will be successful.

Now, don't misunderstand me: I'm sure that you can come out with practical cases where your strategy works with no objection. My point is that "no charisma check" is an exception to the rule, not a standard.

[Crake]

Notices it says trap and not magic circle

The very next part of the spell describes the trap, which consists of a magic circle.

[Jack_Simth]

Some questions about 3.5 Planar Binding.

1- If the outsider is killed , he's done or he's exiled to Abyss?
2- Does fiends feel, or more precisely, take into consideration pain?

In short, can fiends be coherced into obeying by raw strenght and threats of torture and / or death?

For 1: Per the Conjouration(Calling) Subschool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling):
A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled. (emphasis added)

For 2: That is campaign-specific. However, keep in mind: You're essentially trying to Intimidate the critter into obeying... and Intimidate is Charisma-based. In a sense, you're already threatening the beast with killing it if it doesn't obey. In theory, that's part of what the charisma check represents.

[Grek]

Surge of Fortune makes it a joke to accomplish so the Charisma check wins hands down. Trust me, I've been through this before, and for all the ups and downs the other options have, being completely utterly and totally destroyed by a dispel magic, break enchantment, protection/magic circle against evil, or an AMF/Dead Magic zone is a complete and total deal breaker. If you go down the mind control route that isn't Mindrape a break enchantment is a TPK.

That's a 5th level cleric spell, and a personal one at that. You can't get it as a potion and you'd have to UMD it as a scroll. Not really practical at the level you first get planar binding. Compare Hypnotism, which is a first level spell on the wizard list, is not defeated by anything of those effects and doesn't let the outsider know you even did anything (assuming it fails the save).

[RoboEmperor]

That's a 5th level cleric spell, and a personal one at that. You can't get it as a potion and you'd have to UMD it as a scroll. Not really practical at the level you first get planar binding. Compare Hypnotism, which is a first level spell on the wizard list, is not defeated by anything of those effects and doesn't let the outsider know you even did anything (assuming it fails the save).

I go Wyrm Wizard or Recaster solely for Surge of Fortune if I am an arcane planar binder.

I'm unfamiliar with Hypnotism so I wouldn't know whether accepting slavery is considered reasonable or not, but it is a 1st level spell and higher hd outsiders have will saves and spell resistance in the stratosphere

[Bohandas]

Some questions about 3.5 Planar Binding.

1- If the outsider is killed , he's done or he's exiled to Abyss?
2- Does fiends feel, or more precisely, take into consideration pain?

And don't forget the natural followup question of if it does feel and take into consideration pain, is it bothered by it, or is it like a Cenobite of the Gash or Keeper of Secrets type demon


/spellDescriptions.htm#calling]Conjouration(Calling) Subschool[/url]:(emphasis added)


Your emphasis is misleading, as it deliberately excludes the important qualifier "as does a summoned creature", summoning having is]ts own special rules vis a vis reformation even of mundane creatures such as animals summoned via summon nature's ally

[Jack_Simth]

And don't forget the natural followup question of if it does feel and take into consideration pain, is it bothered by it, or is it like a Cenobite of the Gash or Keeper of Secrets type demon



Your emphasis is misleading, as it deliberately excludes the important qualifier "as does a summoned creature", summoning having is]ts own special rules vis a vis reformation even of mundane creatures such as animals summoned via summon nature's ally

If they reform just fine in six centuries, in what sense did they "actually die" as the rules require?

[Crake]

If they reform just fine in six centuries, in what sense did they "actually die" as the rules require?

Because that would have happened if they'd made their way normally onto the material plane, so their "death" is the same as normal. Outsiders reforming on their home plane is the standard process post death for them.

[RoboEmperor]

Because that would have happened if they'd made their way normally onto the material plane, so their "death" is the same as normal. Outsiders reforming on their home plane is the standard process post death for them.

No. Its standard process for fiends. The standard process of outsiders is permadeath and incapability of resurrection without wish or miracle (later made irrelevant with revive outsider).

[Crake]

No. Its standard process for fiends. The standard process of outsiders is permadeath and incapability of resurrection without wish or miracle (later made irrelevant with revive outsider).

yeah, sorry, and not even fiends in general, only demons and devils specifically reform upon death outside of their home plane, but the point still stands in their cases.

[Conradine]

Quick question: if the spellcaster ( probably a multiclass Fighter or something ) is strong enough to boldly step into the Circle and beat the demon to an inch of his life, would the fiend kinda "respect" him?

[Crake]

Quick question: if the spellcaster ( probably a multiclass Fighter or something ) is strong enough to boldly step into the Circle and beat the demon to an inch of his life, would the fiend kinda "respect" him?

When asking questions like this, replace the noun (demon/fiend) with "human". You then realise that the answer is literally "it depends on the personality of the creature in question".

As a side note though, someone stepping into the circle would 100% disrupt it and break the trapped creature free.

[Conradine]

I think Demons and chaotic creatures in general tend to respect raw power more than hierarchies and pacts.

[noob]

When asking questions like this, replace the noun (demon/fiend) with "human". You then realise that the answer is literally "it depends on the personality of the creature in question".

As a side note though, someone stepping into the circle would 100% disrupt it and break the trapped creature free.

For example on Totally a paladin but evil colored devil that will do everything to protect the majority getting them near death is likely to have no influence on that devil while follower devil who waits to have someone stronger to follow for having a strong presence on the material plane that protect them while they corrupt people will join immediately.

[RoboEmperor]

I think Demons and chaotic creatures in general tend to respect raw power more than hierarchies and pacts.

Demons don't respect jack. Especially not some pathetic mortal. They spend 24/7 trying to kill anything and everything including their superiors should the opportunity to overthrow them arises.

[Crake]

Demons don't respect jack. Especially not some pathetic mortal. They spend 24/7 trying to kill anything and everything including their superiors should the opportunity to overthrow them arises.

Not necessarily. Many demons delight far more in ruin and corruption than they do in death and destruction. Others still may be wildly hedonistic, and pursue chaotic evil means of attaining their vices, but have no direct interest in screwing other people at all.