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Segev
2019-05-30, 05:31 PM
Dragonborn are a little disappointing as a race. They don't really hold up next to the others, which get things like bonus cantrips, level-advancement-based spell access, ritual spells as fully-active abilities, and even bonus feats. I know it's common to gripe that the races without darkvision are outnumbered by those who are, as well, so having dragonborn not add to that seems like a nice thing...but they're supposedly related to DRAGONS.

Yes, they get a breath weapon once per short rest; this is actually pretty nice. However, its damage progresses more slowly than any cantrip, and its once/short rest utility holds it back from being character-making. Now, it also can't be spammable like a cantrip, due to its area of effect. I propose the following additions.

Dragonborn Additions
Senses: Dragonborn share in their draconic ancestors' acute vision have darkvision out to 60 ft.
Secondary Breath Weapon: Dragonborn may breathe a targeted version of their breath weapon as their action. This affects only one creature within 30 ft., rather than an area, and has the same damage and saving throw effects.

Zhorn
2019-05-31, 05:16 AM
...but they're supposedly related to DRAGONS....
-snip-

...Dragonborn Additions
Senses: Dragonborn share in their draconic ancestors' acute vision have darkvision out to 60 ft...

Works for some settings like Eberron (where they are descended from dragons), not so much for forgotten realms (where dragonborn are not decended from dragons).

Segev
2019-05-31, 08:28 AM
Works for some settings like Eberron (where they are descended from dragons), not so much for forgotten realms (where dragonborn are not decended from dragons).

Even there, they're created by grafting draconic aspect onto existing races.

JNAProductions
2019-05-31, 10:56 AM
Darkvision is absolutely a fine addition.

The targeted breath weapon feels odd, and not particularly useful actually.

Grod_The_Giant
2019-05-31, 11:32 AM
Darkvision is absolutely a fine addition.

The targeted breath weapon feels odd, and not particularly useful actually.
I think the idea is to make it an at-will option. Which is reasonable, but feels a bit off. How about if instead of "one creature within 30ft," it's "a 5ft radius burst, adjacent to you?" That puts it in line with stuff like Thunderclap while feeling more like a point-blank AoE.

JNAProductions
2019-05-31, 11:34 AM
I think the idea is to make it an at-will option. Which is reasonable, but feels a bit off. How about if instead of "one creature within 30ft," it's "a 5ft radius burst, adjacent to you?" That puts it in line with stuff like Thunderclap while feeling more like a point-blank AoE.

That feels a bit better, yeah.

But if I were to do that, I'd make it just have normal cantrip scaling. (Maybe 2d4 or 1d10 per tier-considering what little else Dragonborn get, I think it can stand to be a reasonably powerful option.)

Segev
2019-05-31, 01:44 PM
I think the idea is to make it an at-will option. Which is reasonable, but feels a bit off. How about if instead of "one creature within 30ft," it's "a 5ft radius burst, adjacent to you?" That puts it in line with stuff like Thunderclap while feeling more like a point-blank AoE.


That feels a bit better, yeah.

But if I were to do that, I'd make it just have normal cantrip scaling. (Maybe 2d4 or 1d10 per tier-considering what little else Dragonborn get, I think it can stand to be a reasonably powerful option.)

The idea was, indeed, to add an effective cantrip to the race, while keeping the once-per-short-rest AoE as well.

The existing damage lags a little behind cantrips at level 5 and beyond, but is made up for by the AoE nature. The AoE is actually too good to make it at-will.

I also considered, instead of making an at-will sub-variant, just giving it a recharge, the way dragon breath weapons work. Maybe on a 6.

Grod_The_Giant
2019-05-31, 01:56 PM
AoE cantrips do exist-- Thunderclap, Sword Burst, Word of Radiance, even Acid Splash, sort of. "Very short range, hitting 1-3 targets" is valid.

Segev
2019-05-31, 02:24 PM
How's this sound, then? (In addition to the extant breath weapon.)

Shallow Breath: As an action on your turn, you may exhale a limited form of your breath weapon. It deals damage and offers saving throws as normal, but only affects three squares which must be adjacent to you and at least one of the other affected squares.

Grod_The_Giant
2019-05-31, 02:28 PM
Sounds great.

Witty Username
2019-05-31, 02:42 PM
I was just thinking about dragonborn, and ways to make them more interesting. I have been looking into giving them movement options from their dragon ancestor that would help differentiate them (like making black dragonborn amphibious or red dragonborn ignore the reduced movement speed from climbing)

I like the idea of them having, in a sense, a breath cantrip.
quick math firebolt 1st: 1d10 5.5 5th: 2d10 11 11: 3d10 15.5 17th: 4d10 22
vs breath 1st: 2d6+2 9 6th 3d6+3 13.5 11: 4d6+4 18 16th: 5d6+5 22.5 17th 5d6 + 6 23.5
It seems like that a breath cantrip would slightly edge out fire bolt in terms of damage at most levels, I think it would be fine given its short range and cantrip damage is not something you want to be doing as your game plan. I think it highlights how bad the standard breath weapon is though.

I still don't understand why they didn't give dragonborn dark vision already. That should be a thing.

Breccia
2019-05-31, 02:57 PM
I still don't understand why they didn't give dragonborn dark vision already. That should be a thing.

If it were my decision and I was defending it, I'd probably say "because darkvision is so classically elf and dwarf that giving darkvision to everyone would make those races less Tolkien."

With that as a lead-in, if we're talking about upgrading dragonborn senses, does it have to be vision? Could it be hearing, smell, or touch ok not touch, they have thick leathery skin, doesn't make sense. But dragons are feared (rightly so) for their ability to destroy invisibility and stealth advantages. Darkvision doesn't do that, but half the animals in the MM have Advantage on smell or hearing.

Bruniik
2019-06-25, 11:22 PM
I have always found it weird that dragonborn don't have darkvision.

BerzerkerUnit
2019-06-26, 12:17 AM
I think Darkvision, have breath improve at tier levels (I think it’s off tier right now) and have it be a bonus action at 5+.

MagneticKitty
2019-06-27, 11:51 AM
Id put bonus action and they can do it a number of times equal to charisma modifier per long rest instead of short.
+ darkvision.

AdAstra
2019-06-27, 12:31 PM
I think it could be interesting to give a race with like 10 ft. blindsight or something like that. Fits Dragonborn while doing something different than the usual darkvision, and they really don't have much else, so they're not going to become worldbeaters just from that. Sure, it allows them to render invisibility irrelevant if they can get into melee range, but by the time you're encountering significant numbers of invisible enemies, you're breath weapon's probably no longer all that relevant. I think the only issue is that you'd probably need to define Blindsight a little better for player use, but that's not too hard, just have to specify that like solid objects still block it or something.

Phhase
2019-06-29, 04:59 PM
For Metallic dragonborn, how about gaining access to the secondary breath weapons their bigger brothers possess at some level threshold (Sleep gas, slow gas, etc.)?

For Chromatic, how about being able to evolve your breath weapon at certain levels by consuming enough of a specific substance over a period of time? I read a story about a black dragonborn who, despite being resistant to acid, was somehow always getting hit with acid damage, so the DM gave him a ring that made him fully immune to acid. This resulted in him EATING a gelatinous cube that attacked the party. After a moment of stunned silence, the DM ruled that it worked, and henceforth augmented his breath weapon for having consumed so much unique acidic matter. Not only that, there are spells in the Spell Compendium expressly designed for use by creatures with breath weapons (For example: Dispelling Breath).

For example:
Consuming enough undead flesh causes your breath weapon to inflict a negative level on struck enemies (Although, of course, you'd have lots of Con checks to make to avoid being horribly afflicted...)

Consuming enough acidic materia allows an acidic breath weapon to add +2d6 extra damage and any auxiliary effects the consumed acid has (For example, paralysis as in the Gelatinous Cube example, or armor dissolution in the case of a Black Pudding).

Consuming enough flammable material (such as alcohol - good way to roleplay an alcoholic character!) adds +2d6 damage to a fiery breath weapon, and causes the affected area and creatures to continue burning as if in oil (5 flat damage) for 2 more rounds (Unless the fire is put out).

Surviving a long period of metal poisoning causes your breath weapon to be infused with a storm of metal shards, dealing +2d6 slashing and bleeding for 1 point of damage per dice of your breath weapon (on a failed save) until a medicine check (dc 13) is administered.

Consuming a liquified gas causes a cold-based breath to gain +2d6 damage, freeze any liquids that fail a save, and slow for 2 rounds any creature that fails a save.

Etc. It would be pretty cool to reward surviving what would otherwise be a dumb idea. Obviously, you only get one such augment, perhaps two (at very high levels). Or perhaps these would be racial feats.

As an aside, I know they're not really liked by anyone, but it would be pretty cool if there were dragonborn for the gem dragons as well (MM2).

Maxidion
2019-07-01, 01:23 PM
This is a subject I have found to be of interest for a while, and thus have some ideas to offer. I created my own additions to the Dragonborn, though I think it might be a bit too much on the powerful side.

1. The range of the Dragonborn breath weapon range increases by 5 ft. (if it is a cone), or 10 ft. (if it is a line) each time the breath weapon's damage improves.

2. At 3rd level Dragonborn may add their Con Mod to their breath weapon damage, (because Con Mod is what is used in their DC).

3. At 5th level the breath weapon will cause penalties (depending on the damage type) to those who fail their saves against the breath weapon.
Fire: Targets will take 1d6 fire damage at the start of each of their turns until they or an ally within 5 ft. uses an action and succeeds a DC 10 Dex save.
Cold: Target's speed is halved for 1 minute.
Poison: Targets are poisoned until they succeed a Con save at the end of their turn.
Lightning: Targets are stunned until they make a Con save at the beginning of their turn.
Acid: Targets AC decreases by 1 until they repair their armor (if they have any), or they take a long rest (if they don't have armor).
The DCs for the Poison and Lightning would be your breath weapon DC.

4. Dragonborn have +1 any unarmored defense value.

I also like the idea of a 10 ft. blindsight.

Obviously, this needs to be toned down a bit, I made it for a game where I was increasing the power of every race, but the Dragonborn needed it more than others. The reason I like these is because they don't directly change the damage of the breath weapon or make it able to be used more often then already stated. I also always felt that its range was to short, and I always like it when certain damage types can cause related conditions. Finally it adds slightly more variety between the different 'ancestries?'. Sorry for the long winded message, I will be considering ways to tone this down, but that's all for now.

Skyrender
2019-07-01, 08:43 PM
I've noticed a lot of people commenting about giving dragonborn darkvision, and someone even asked why they didn't get it to start with. The main reason WotC didn't give it to them is because in 4e they had plenty of other goodies, to the point where they needed to short-change them somewhere to keep them from feeling overpowered, compared to the rest of the basic races. In classic WotC fashion, they paid less attention to the transition between editions than they should have. As a result, the 5e dragonborn basically just gets resistance to one type of damage, and a cantrip once per rest.

In my estimation, give the breath weapon a recharge on 6, or toning down the damage and making it at-will (1d8 per tier, maybe?), and adding darkvision and/or blindsight 10' should bring them up to par.

Segev
2019-07-02, 01:49 AM
I've noticed a lot of people commenting about giving dragonborn darkvision, and someone even asked why they didn't get it to start with. The main reason WotC didn't give it to them is because in 4e they had plenty of other goodies, to the point where they needed to short-change them somewhere to keep them from feeling overpowered, compared to the rest of the basic races. In classic WotC fashion, they paid less attention to the transition between editions than they should have. As a result, the 5e dragonborn basically just gets resistance to one type of damage, and a cantrip once per rest.Ah, did not know the 4e history. What did they get in 4e that they don't in 5e?


In my estimation, give the breath weapon a recharge on 6, or toning down the damage and making it at-will (1d8 per tier, maybe?), and adding darkvision and/or blindsight 10' should bring them up to par.
This was roughly my idea. The trouble with making their breath weapon just scale and be at will is its AOE, so I gave them a "secondary" breath weapon that does scale appropriately for an at-will cantrip and had a smaller one.

And added Darkvision, because come on.

I agree that the fact that only humans and halflings LACK it is a problem, but Dragonborn are the wrong race to try to redress that with.

DataNinja
2019-07-02, 02:23 AM
Ah, did not know the 4e history. What did they get in 4e that they don't in 5e?

They got a bonus to attacking when bloodied, a small bonus to healing surges, and their breath weapon was a minor action. Was a fair bit less damage, but Minor action meant it was almost always applicable.

What really set them apart, though, was that they got a lot of Feat and other stuff support. Enough that you could fill up your Feats (of which you got 18) with those that just altered/improved your Dragon Breath. They and Tieflings were also the only two races that got dedicated racial expansion supplements (though, admittedly that was mostly just compilations of stuff from elsewhere - primarily Dragon magazine).

Probably didn't help that there were only 8 distinct races to start, so there was more focus on them and Tieflings being distinct newcomers.

They were a very solid race in 4e (and had a lot of great fluff that 5e excised), though I never found them overpowered. Other people could probably comment on that more, though.

What I do find funny is that they actually had a Heroic-tier Feat that could let them get Low-Light vision (which is what Elves and Dwarves got), while most races couldn't even get that. Yet they're one of the few that don't get it in 5e.

Maxidion
2019-07-02, 10:52 AM
I gave them a "secondary" breath weapon that does scale appropriately for an at-will cantrip and had a smaller one.

I find the idea of the targeted breath weapon interesting, but I think giving them a freely usable weapon, even if weak, and especially if the damage isn't fully avoidable is too much.



Secondary Breath Weapon: Dragonborn may breathe a targeted version of their breath weapon as their action. This affects only one creature within 30 ft., rather than an area, and has the same damage and saving throw effects.

If it indeed has the same damage and saving throw effects, it does damage on a failed save. No cantrip in the game does damage even on a failed saving throw. With this, any unarmed and untrained dragonborn could still be threatening. I was going to argue that it would be almost as powerful as a warlock's eldritch blast with its invocations, but I suppose the shorter range offsets that. In my opinion, whatever is done to the breath weapon, it should stay limited use.


P.S. I suppose a simple solutions to the secondary breath weapon could be to make it miss on a succeeded save, but at later levels it would be weaker than a normal cantrip.


P.S.S I don't mean to sound as critical as I feel I sound, I just don't know a better way to say what I'm saying.

Segev
2019-07-02, 10:43 PM
I'm not entirely sure that having it be stronger than a Cantrip (by virtue of save-for-half) is unwarranted, given how little else the race gets.

Maxidion
2019-07-03, 01:52 PM
I'm not entirely sure that having it be stronger than a Cantrip (by virtue of save-for-half) is unwarranted, given how little else the race gets.

True, I feel it needs to be improved, but an unlimited use unavoidable damage option seems too powerful. I assume that's the reason I haven't been able to find anything in the game that does that.

If it had a reasonable limit to the amount of times it could be used, that would cancel this objection. The only complaint I would still have would simply be a matter of personal preference: that being that I feel this option is less fun than increasing the utility of the original breath weapon (this is obviously a petty argument).


My example for a limited breath weapon: May be used a number of times = to your Con Mod (Minimum of 1) per long rest.
Alternate Example: Same but once per short rest, catch is that you must expend one of these uses for your primary breath weapon.

MagneticKitty
2019-07-03, 05:04 PM
Maybe at level 1 and each time their breath damage goes up they can pick some upgrades
Maybe like..
Quickened breath (bonus action use)
Everlasting breath (a number of times per short rest equal to con modifier)
Empowered breath (bonus damage)
Alternate use (dragon fear feat / sleep spell breath, use breath damage calculation for casting sleep spell)

Or something.. I wish they were better :(

Maxidion
2019-07-03, 07:51 PM
Maybe at level 1 and each time their breath damage goes up they can pick some upgrades
Maybe like..
Quickened breath (bonus action use)
Everlasting breath (a number of times per short rest equal to con modifier)
Empowered breath (bonus damage)
Alternate use (dragon fear feat / sleep spell breath, use breath damage calculation for casting sleep spell)

Or something.. I wish they were better :(

I think these are good ideas, but it doesn't really fit into the normal ruleset (Races don't really have anything they pick as they level up). However, if I were playing a game where I didn't mind things being quite different from the core rules, then I would probably use these ideas. (Though combining quickened breath and everlasting breath would be an incredibly powerful combo if you had a good Con Mod).

Maxidion
2019-07-11, 04:13 PM
It seems that people weren't interested in my ideas for the Dragonborn. No hard feelings, I just need to know if someone actually is. Because if not, there would be no point in me making a more balanced version.

Segev
2019-07-11, 04:48 PM
It seems that people weren't interested in my ideas for the Dragonborn. No hard feelings, I just need to know if someone actually is. Because if not, there would be no point in me making a more balanced version.

Acid and Lightning's knock-on effects seem way too good. Increasing range is nice, but...questionable.

I still think the best solution is to give them more consistent effects, rather than boosting their once-per-day effect.

Bjarkmundur
2019-07-15, 06:01 PM
I was thinking about this too, after watching MrRhexx's video on the dragonborn.

He had some pretty cool points; like how they want to do things on their own, always want to be the best, how loyal and fierce they are and how honorbound their personality is.

Thing is, besides their ambition, honor and "I care deeply about everything", the breath weapon seems to be the only thing that really makes a good feature. Like he described in his video, the dragonborns are so mixed, color-wise, that the colors usually don't have anything to do with a dragonborn itself.

If I had a player who wants a beefed up dragonborn, I'd try to emphasize the role-playing aspect, and give them a sweet dragonbreath.

Dragonborn Fury: You gain proficiency in the Intimidation skill.
Dragonborn Pride: When you miss with an attack or fail an ability check or saving throw, you refuse to accept your failure. You gain advantage on your next attack roll, ability check or saving throw. You regain the use of this feature at the end of a short rest.
Dragon Breath: You know the ______________ cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the ______________ spell as a 2nd-level spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. When you reach 5th level, you can cast the ______________spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. Constitution is your spellcasting ability for these spells. You also choose the damage type of your Dragon Breath: acid, cold, fire, lightning, or poison. This choice remain throughout your character’s life and does not change the power’s other effects.

Man_Over_Game
2019-07-15, 06:06 PM
Honestly, I think the solutions here are just a little bit too overthought. Dragonborn don't need much to be competitive. Look at Dwarves, who are fairly boring in their abilities but altogether still very relevant.

My solution is just:

Stats change to +2 Constitution, and either +2 Strength for a Chromatic dragon, or +2 Charisma for a Metallic Dragon.

Gives a little more identity, and makes them applicable for all of the same classes you'd want them to be (between Fighters and Sorcerers).

MagneticKitty
2019-07-17, 12:23 PM
I think pushing them into dwarf stat territory is interesting... But I don't think it's a great fix.. that is dwarf's "thing"
And even without their better stats dwarves have other nice perks.

I think bonus action breath and darkvision is sufficient.. But not interesting..

I have a revision I made a while back that I could post at some point if people were curious.

Man over game: if say go ahead and post yours and spoiler tag it if desired.

Segev
2019-07-17, 02:38 PM
I think pushing them into dwarf stat territory is interesting... But I don't think it's a great fix.. that is dwarf's "thing"
And even without their better stats dwarves have other nice perks.

I think bonus action breath and darkvision is sufficient.. But not interesting..

I have a revision I made a while back that I could post at some point if people were curious.

Man over game: if say go ahead and post yours and spoiler tag it if desired.

Personally, I think making the breath attack a bonus action is only non-interesting because it's just making it easier to blow through (haha) their limited racial resource. What I strove to do here was, instead, give them a non-limited racial resource, because I feel that does make them more interesting.



Had another thought on how perhaps to do it: Give them (2+level)d6 worth of breath weapon. They can expend these dice in any amount as an action in the AoE defined by their dragon ancestry. They recover 2d6 on a short rest, and may expend hit dice as if they were rolling them for healing to 1:1 restore additional dice. This gives them a limited resource they can blow through in one big blast, or in smaller blasts.

Maxidion
2019-08-02, 06:31 PM
Acid and Lightning's knock-on effects seem way too good. Increasing range is nice, but...questionable.

I still think the best solution is to give them more consistent effects, rather than boosting their once-per-day effect.

For acid I don't think adding 1/20 chance to hit is all that great. For lightning, while this will give allies the ability to have advantage and auto-crits against targets who failed the saving throw, they get to make a second one at the beginning of their next turn, drastically decreasing the chance that they will lose a turn. While it is quite powerful, I think all the others (excepting acid which I consider to be the weakest) most of the other are similarly powerful.

Range? I see the questionability of it, at the same time, if we are trying to improve the power of the breath weapon range is fundamental to that, it also increases slowly as you level up. Also, in my experience, there is usually at least one short rest on combat filled days, each short rest will allow an additional use of the breath weapon that day.

Understanding better the goal you have in mind, I will get off that subject now as my previous idea is nothing in line with yours.

If I wanted to make to make it more reusable, I'd give it a 5-6 recharge. I feel the roll to get the ability back (assuming that having used it once, the player may need another use of it) would add more drama, without letting the player spam the ability excepting good rolls. However, seeing as how someone already mentioned this idea I and you did not say you wanted to use it, I will assume you don't. So I will endeavor to come up with another idea, (not dismissing you secondary breath weapon, I just feel something better could be done).

I may take a while to respond in the future as my free time has grown sparse.


Personally, I think making the breath attack a bonus action is only non-interesting because it's just making it easier to blow through (haha) their limited racial resource. What I strove to do here was, instead, give them a non-limited racial resource, because I feel that does make them more interesting.



Had another thought on how perhaps to do it: Give them (2+level)d6 worth of breath weapon. They can expend these dice in any amount as an action in the AoE defined by their dragon ancestry. They recover 2d6 on a short rest, and may expend hit dice as if they were rolling them for healing to 1:1 restore additional dice. This gives them a limited resource they can blow through in one big blast, or in smaller blasts.

I should have read this before writing down everything up there, but oh well. This is a wonderful idea, just needs a little tweaking in my, personal, opinion.

What my opinion states: 1. They should have a scaling limit to how many d6 they can use in one turn. So far, however, my efforts to figure out a good system of limitation has so far only come up with bad fruit.
2. They should be able to regain a scaling amount of the d6 per short rest, perhaps 1 + (1/2 level, min 1).

I must admit though, the thing that really makes the breath weapon feel underpowered to me is the short range. However other low powered cone spells seem to have that same limit so I'm not sure what to make of the situation.

Bjarkmundur
2019-08-06, 03:21 AM
Ah, so we are thinking about more uses, rather than more flavor or more power. Well, there are plenty of convoluted racial powers out there, namely the racial spellcasting and aasimar 3rd level abilities.

We can just make it scale to keep the power level relevant. We can go from something that seems appropriate for a level 1 racial cantrip


Bonus Action, 5ft range, 1d6 damage, at-will

And the add onto that a different ability that's a 15ft cone.


Empowered Breath
Starting at x-th level, your breath becomes more potent. You can use your Empowered Breath a number of times equal to your constitution modifier (minimum 1)

Then we can add a 5th level ability that increases the damage or improves the action economy (part of the attack action/reaction)


Superior Breath
Your Dragon Breath and Empowered Breath damage is increased by 1d6, and use your reaction instead of a bonus action.


This means we don't have to use any confusing scaling or worry about the curve. We just add a new ability with level-relevant power when we need it. 1st, 3rd and 5th level seem appropriate places to add these.

Segev
2019-08-06, 09:29 AM
Understanding better the goal you have in mind, I will get off that subject now as my previous idea is nothing in line with yours.

If I wanted to make to make it more reusable, I'd give it a 5-6 recharge. I feel the roll to get the ability back (assuming that having used it once, the player may need another use of it) would add more drama, without letting the player spam the ability excepting good rolls. However, seeing as how someone already mentioned this idea I and you did not say you wanted to use it, I will assume you don't. So I will endeavor to come up with another idea, (not dismissing you secondary breath weapon, I just feel something better could be done).

I may take a while to respond in the future as my free time has grown sparse.I appreciate the continued replies and thoughts, so thank you for devoting what time you have chosen to of your available free time!

The 5-6 recharge isn't a bad idea for moment-to-moment, but my worry is that it makes it, at absolute minimum, an encounter ability. Now, that frequency is actually nice! I like that possibility for how usable it is; my concern is that it's too powerful to be used that often; it might need a nerf in dice count.

Then again... 2d6 at first level to a short cone AoE (save for half) once per encounter...probably isn't going to break anything. So the scaling might work at this rate.

Maybe make it save for none, with a 1/(short or long) rest version that lets them make it save for half?

That's a better idea than I probably gave it credit for to begin with.


[On making it a limit of dice they can roll during short rests]
This is a wonderful idea, just needs a little tweaking in my, personal, opinion.

What my opinion states: 1. They should have a scaling limit to how many d6 they can use in one turn. So far, however, my efforts to figure out a good system of limitation has so far only come up with bad fruit.
2. They should be able to regain a scaling amount of the d6 per short rest, perhaps 1 + (1/2 level, min 1).

I must admit though, the thing that really makes the breath weapon feel underpowered to me is the short range. However other low powered cone spells seem to have that same limit so I'm not sure what to make of the situation.I understand that thought. Maybe a Dragonborn feat that increases it wouldn't be remiss? Though yes, there are short-range cones like this out there that cost even more resources (e.g. a 1st level spell slot).


Ah, so we are thinking about more uses, rather than more flavor or more power. Well, there are plenty of convoluted racial powers out there, namely the racial spellcasting and aasimar 3rd level abilities. Yeah, I think the flavor is more or less fine; the issue is that it's likely to fall victim to the "bigger spider" problem and never see use.


We can just make it scale to keep the power level relevant. We can go from something that seems appropriate for a level 1 racial cantrip


Bonus Action, 5ft range, 1d6 damage, at-will

And the add onto that a different ability that's a 15ft cone.


Empowered Breath
Starting at x-th level, your breath becomes more potent. You can use your Empowered Breath a number of times equal to your constitution modifier (minimum 1)

Then we can add a 5th level ability that increases the damage or improves the action economy (part of the attack action/reaction)


Superior Breath
Your Dragon Breath and Empowered Breath damage is increased by 1d6, and use your reaction instead of a bonus action.


This means we don't have to use any confusing scaling or worry about the curve. We just add a new ability with level-relevant power when we need it. 1st, 3rd and 5th level seem appropriate places to add these.
Hm, that is interesting. Though what qualifies as "confusing scaling" to you?

Bjarkmundur
2019-08-06, 03:12 PM
Hm, that is interesting. Though what qualifies as "confusing scaling" to you?

It's a personal principle I'm projecting, sorry. I generally don't implement houserules that can't be explained to a player in one sentence, and introducing a fully new mechanic to the game (2+level, recharge some at short rest) for a houserule should only be done when an original mechanic is the main reason for the rule being implemented.

Like I said, I'm projecting. You wouldn't have come up with it if it weren't perfectly fine for your table, which is the true domain for your own houserules (hence the 'house' part).

Maxidion
2019-08-10, 04:47 PM
I appreciate the continued replies and thoughts, so thank you for devoting what time you have chosen to of your available free time!

The 5-6 recharge isn't a bad idea for moment-to-moment, but my worry is that it makes it, at absolute minimum, an encounter ability. Now, that frequency is actually nice! I like that possibility for how usable it is; my concern is that it's too powerful to be used that often; it might need a nerf in dice count.

Then again... 2d6 at first level to a short cone AoE (save for half) once per encounter...probably isn't going to break anything. So the scaling might work at this rate.

Maybe make it save for none, with a 1/(short or long) rest version that lets them make it save for half?

That's a better idea than I probably gave it credit for to begin with.

I understand that thought. Maybe a Dragonborn feat that increases it wouldn't be remiss? Though yes, there are short-range cones like this out there that cost even more resources (e.g. a 1st level spell slot).

Maybe if we were to do the recharging one, we could reduce the damage by 1d6, increase its range to 20 ft. for cones, 40 for lines, and keep as a save for half attack. Damage seems to low.

If the ability to recharge were in affect, I think that saving for no damage is probably fair. Then again, I can see anyone who was other AOE spells and has more than a handful of slots only using this as a last resort.

Also, as far as it being an encounter ability (I am assuming this means an ability only used in encounters), if someone isn't in combat when they want to use it, just have them wait half a minute. I know that is technically 30 seconds when the average is time should be 18 but you could explain that by saying when they aren't in the stress of an encounter they aren't preparing quite as quickly.


Ah, so we are thinking about more uses...

I don't mean to ignore you Bjarkmunder, I just haven't been able to think of anything worth saying.

Segev
2019-08-12, 09:34 AM
Maybe if we were to do the recharging one, we could reduce the damage by 1d6, increase its range to 20 ft. for cones, 40 for lines, and keep as a save for half attack. Damage seems to low.

If the ability to recharge were in affect, I think that saving for no damage is probably fair. Then again, I can see anyone who was other AOE spells and has more than a handful of slots only using this as a last resort.

Also, as far as it being an encounter ability (I am assuming this means an ability only used in encounters), if someone isn't in combat when they want to use it, just have them wait half a minute. I know that is technically 30 seconds when the average is time should be 18 but you could explain that by saying when they aren't in the stress of an encounter they aren't preparing quite as quickly.



I don't mean to ignore you Bjarkmunder, I just haven't been able to think of anything worth saying.

"Encounter ability" is a shorthand way - for me - to refer to abilities you use once per encounter. A recharge ability is GOING to hit the 5-6 between encounters if it doesn't during one.

Versus a Short Rest ability, which is usable theoretically once every 2-3 encounters.

We should also keep in mind a comparison of this free racial feature to dragon breath, which is a 2nd level spell. It should never be better than that.

Maxidion
2019-08-20, 04:45 PM
"Encounter ability" is a shorthand way - for me - to refer to abilities you use once per encounter. A recharge ability is GOING to hit the 5-6 between encounters if it doesn't during one.

Versus a Short Rest ability, which is usable theoretically once every 2-3 encounters.

Ah, got it.


We should also keep in mind a comparison of this free racial feature to dragon breath, which is a 2nd level spell. It should never be better than that.

Comparison of the two:
Frequency: Dragon's Breath is able to be used on as many turns as you want as long as the caster holds concentration Max 1 minute. Breath weapon is once per short rest.
Damage: I will go ahead and say they are about equal because by 5th level the breath weapon is 3d6, it scales, but then Dragon's breath will be able to be used at higher levels.
Range/AOE: Equal, the line also covers the same amount of space.
Dragon's breath can also be used on other's besides yourself.

It seems to me that the only area that Dragon's Breath is stronger would frequency, it can be cast on an ally, but you could lose the concentration as well. This poses a problem as frequency seems to exactly what we are trying to improve. Though at the same time I realize you have often suggested weakening other things as a trade off, or make a weaker but more frequent version. In this light I better understand why you came up with the ideas you did.

My new suggestion: The breath weapon is the same as normal but recharges only once per long rest. You have a weaker version that has -1d6 to its damage, that ability recharges on a 5-6 roll. You may not use your primary breath weapon if the secondary one has been used but not yet recharged.

Maybe also give the Dragonborn darkvision, inferior or normal. I also liked the idea of a 10 ft. blindsight, but I don't believe you wanted to use that idea.

Edit Note: A better way to put the above idea is give the breath weapon a 5-6 recharge but reduce its damage by 1d6. Once per long rest, you may add 1d6 to the damage. It might actually be better to make it get the bonus damage once per short rest, but I'm not sure.

AdAstra
2019-08-20, 05:56 PM
"Encounter ability" is a shorthand way - for me - to refer to abilities you use once per encounter. A recharge ability is GOING to hit the 5-6 between encounters if it doesn't during one.

Versus a Short Rest ability, which is usable theoretically once every 2-3 encounters.

We should also keep in mind a comparison of this free racial feature to dragon breath, which is a 2nd level spell. It should never be better than that.

Is there a reason why it can't be as strong as dragon's breath, at least eventually? After all, Tieflings get a cantrip, 1st level (cast at 2nd level by default), and 2nd level spell by lvl. 5. These spells are all on the lower end of the spectrum of power, but the alternate spell lists from the Tiefling variants are often quite powerful, Tieflings have darkvision, and they themselves are far from the most powerful race.

If you really want it to be a once-per-encounter power, why not have it only recharge on a 6? some abilities in the monster manual do that, and it means that most combats it won't be available until after the combat has been completed. Assuming you use it on the first round, the cumulative probability that it'll become available again in a 4-round combat is only 42%. That seems sufficiently unreliable to be a pleasant surprise when it does happen. Maybe even bump the die size up to a d8 (requiring a roll of 8), pushing that probability down to 33%.

Segev
2019-08-23, 09:19 AM
Ah, got it.

(...)

In this light I better understand why you came up with the ideas you did.Yep, that's about my thought process!


My new suggestion: The breath weapon is the same as normal but recharges only once per long rest. You have a weaker version that has -1d6 to its damage, that ability recharges on a 5-6 roll. You may not use your primary breath weapon if the secondary one has been used but not yet recharged.

Maybe also give the Dragonborn darkvision, inferior or normal. I also liked the idea of a 10 ft. blindsight, but I don't believe you wanted to use that idea.

Edit Note: A better way to put the above idea is give the breath weapon a 5-6 recharge but reduce its damage by 1d6. Once per long rest, you may add 1d6 to the damage. It might actually be better to make it get the bonus damage once per short rest, but I'm not sure.Once per short rest might be viable.

Heck, I could even see the "once per rest" bonus scale, by 1d6, at the Cantrip rate, though I would need to refresh myself on some numbers to be sure, because I'm coming at this after having let my brain go fallow on the subject as I focused on other things.

To be clear, I like the idea of blindsight 10 ft., but I just can't see it as not being overpowered. Maybe if they have to activate it as a bonus action and Concentrate on it? That seems fiddly, though.


Is there a reason why it can't be as strong as dragon's breath, at least eventually? After all, Tieflings get a cantrip, 1st level (cast at 2nd level by default), and 2nd level spell by lvl. 5. These spells are all on the lower end of the spectrum of power, but the alternate spell lists from the Tiefling variants are often quite powerful, Tieflings have darkvision, and they themselves are far from the most powerful race.

If you really want it to be a once-per-encounter power, why not have it only recharge on a 6? some abilities in the monster manual do that, and it means that most combats it won't be available until after the combat has been completed. Assuming you use it on the first round, the cumulative probability that it'll become available again in a 4-round combat is only 42%. That seems sufficiently unreliable to be a pleasant surprise when it does happen. Maybe even bump the die size up to a d8 (requiring a roll of 8), pushing that probability down to 33%.
That may also be a possibility.

Would it be broken just to take the existing feature and make it recharge on a 6, rather than on a short rest? My gut says "yes," but I'm not sure.

JBPuffin
2019-08-24, 08:31 AM
Breath Weapon as a bonus action (keeps short rest recharge), Darkvision 60 ft, choice of Athletics/Intimidation/Persuasion proficiency. At least that's what works for my groups.

AdAstra
2019-08-25, 04:55 PM
Yep, that's about my thought process!

Once per short rest might be viable.

Heck, I could even see the "once per rest" bonus scale, by 1d6, at the Cantrip rate, though I would need to refresh myself on some numbers to be sure, because I'm coming at this after having let my brain go fallow on the subject as I focused on other things.

To be clear, I like the idea of blindsight 10 ft., but I just can't see it as not being overpowered. Maybe if they have to activate it as a bonus action and Concentrate on it? That seems fiddly, though.


That may also be a possibility.

Would it be broken just to take the existing feature and make it recharge on a 6, rather than on a short rest? My gut says "yes," but I'm not sure.

For blindsight, if you buff the breath weapon, it'll probably be too strong, but as is, it would be the only powerful ability the race even gets. Maybe just allow you to determine the location of all creatures without total cover within 30 ft. (or less if you feel that range is too long)? That way you still have disadvantage to attack, but you can detect things others can't.

As for the breath weapon, the damage at 1st lvl. is more than a cantrip, but less than all but the weakest weapon attacks. Could maybe change the damage die to a D12? Reduces the average damage by a little and makes it less dependable, then maybe have it scale like a cantrip? So basically a small AOE d12 cantrip that requires a cooldown to use again. Since the odds are against it being available more than once per combat, I can't see it being a gamebreaker.

Alternatively, you could use your earlier plan of having an at-will breath, with an option for a more powerful one every short/long rest. If you do go that route, from a game design perspective, it may be better to phrase it as a once-per-rest boost rather than a separate option, which feels a little wonky for a race feature. In general people receive things better when it's phrased as a bonus rather than a penalty. It obviously has no or minimal mechanical impact, but it looks better to most people.
Ex:"When you use your breath weapon, you may channel additional energy into it, increasing its damage by 2d6 of its type. You can't use this feature again until you finish a short or long rest"
It could probably use some clarification to avoid implying that you can't use your regular breath weapon, but it's already a little long