PDA

View Full Version : ultimate rogue?



kemmotar
2007-10-05, 05:15 PM
Ok, I don't know if this thread has been done before but well here it is(again?likely)....

Anyway, what is it that makes a rogue a rogue and what are the best features of a rogue?What PrCs enhance that?What items?What feats?What race?LA or no LA?Skills aside unless you think that this is a better aspect...

The way i was thinking it maybe whisper gnome with extra silence, silencing strike, some PrC with hide in plain site, full SA progression, maybe invisble blade...

What i'm mainly looking for is the assassin type that can both assassinate while going around in the dark and be the sneaky b*sanitized*rd in the battlefield. One more question...is there anything that can beat true seeing and see invis when it comes to staying invisible for SA.

Draz74
2007-10-05, 05:30 PM
What i'm mainly looking for is the assassin type that can both assassinate while going around in the dark and be the sneaky b*sanitized*rd in the battlefield. One more question...is there anything that can beat true seeing and see invis when it comes to staying invisible for SA.

Well, True Seeing and See Invisibility have no way of piercing good ol' mundane Hide Skill stuff. (Though a DM might houserule otherwise if the Hide Skill is aided by magical items or a Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight ability or something.)

kemmotar
2007-10-05, 06:18 PM
Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight ability or something

hide in plain sight hides you in the shadow plane(if i remember correctly) so i dont think you can be seen at all...even with true seeing...

Fax Celestis
2007-10-05, 06:19 PM
hide in plain sight hides you in the shadow plane(if i remember correctly) so i dont think you can be seen at all...even with true seeing...

Depends on the HiPS. Ranger's HiPS, for instance, is Extraordinary and he just sits there.

Anxe
2007-10-05, 07:36 PM
The first job of a Rogue is a Skill Monkey. He is the scout, the assassin, the all-purpose adventurer. He needs to be able to do anything at any time. The ability needed for this is intelligence, so your rogue can have a bunch of skills and be good at searching for traps. There are a few items that help with this too. Alchemical weapons (Acid and Alchemist fire), capsules if you have Complete Scoundrel or whatever book they're in, and definitely an extradimensional storage space, so you can have whatever you need for whatever happens.

The Second job of the Rogue is stabbing things in the back. This can be achieved through flanking, hiding in the shadows, or feinting. Flanking is the easiest way to do it and you can get this bonus with a few ranks in Tumble. Hiding is a little hard, but the only way to use ranged weapons in a sneak attack. Plus if you hide you can't get attacked. The third is feinting which requires a rather thick feat set. You need four feats to have the best feinter possible (Skill Focus, Persuasive, Improved Feint, and the second tier of Improved Feint which I forget the name of). That's a big commitment for a class that doesnt get bonus feats, but it's possible. The items that go with this are things that boost hide, move silently, bluff, and tumble, depending on what strategy you're going with.

Most of the PrCs for Rogues suck. The only good ones are Assassin and Shadow Dancer. Assassin is unfortunately associated with evil and thus becomes a DM PrC in most cases. Shadow Dancer isn't bad, but you stop getting sneak attack and Disable Device as a class skill. That takes out a rogue's two main party tasks. My point is that usually a straight rogue is going to be better than going with any prestige class. Occasionally a munchkin could splash something, but it's not necessary for the rogue to do his job.

Really Good items for a Rogue:
Boots of Striding and Springing. An awesome item that lets you move quickly and jump over stuff if you can't walk there. I love this item. Only thing better is flying, but that costs a bunch.
Sword of Subtlety. A cheap way to get a +4 sword. And it's like an evil Holy Avenger which is cool.
Portable Hole. For putting ladders, tools, food, everburning torches, fine dining sets that you "liberated," and all sorts of other goodies you might need to deal with things that have damage reduction or regeneration.
Circlet of Blasting. What can't you sneak attack? Undead. What hurts Undead? Searing Light.
Shatter Scrolls or Wands or whatever. To hurt constructs.

One more thing I gotta add are those feats that let you use your reflex save as your will and fortitude saves. Those feats are awesome because then you get to use evasion on everything.

kemmotar
2007-10-05, 07:45 PM
One more thing I gotta add are those feats that let you use your reflex save as your will and fortitude saves. Those feats are awesome because then you get to use evasion on everything.

*Drum roll in the distance*and those feats areeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?I just NEED to know...this is just too good to exist..haven't seen it anywhere either...maybe i didn't look too hard...but what is it?and most importantly where?

Armads
2007-10-05, 07:54 PM
You need four feats to have the best feinter possible (Skill Focus, Persuasive, Improved Feint, and the second tier of Improved Feint which I forget the name of).

You don't actually need Persuasive or Skill focus. Combat Expertise, Improved Feint + Max ranks in Bluff are pretty much all you need, since not many monsters have sense motive.




Circlet of Blasting. What can't you sneak attack? Undead. What hurts Undead? Searing Light.

This is terrible. Searing light is way too weak to deal significant damage to undead. It's better to use the alternative class features that let you deal 1/2 sneak attack damage to stuff that is immune to crits (i think it's in dungeonscape, losing trap sense)
[/QUOTE]

Invisible blade is awesome. Master Throwers with some way of denying dex to AC are very abusable (coughcough Palm Throw coughcough). You could pick up a ring of blinking, then take Pierce magical concealment, so you constantly strike as invisible without taking miss chance in return.

EDIT: I think those feats that let you use your reflex save for fort and will are epic. And they don't give evasion benefits unless they are fort half or will half.

Anxe
2007-10-05, 07:56 PM
Fine I'll get out my books.

First cool reflex save feat, Dive For Cover. Requires +4 Reflex and lets you make a second reflex save, but you end up prone. Couldn't find the other ones though. I'm sure YOU can find them on Crystal keep if you look.

Anxe
2007-10-05, 08:00 PM
Oh wait Armads is right. They are Epic and right in the feat description it says "evasion is not applicable." My bad, sorry.

kemmotar
2007-10-05, 08:30 PM
Also with invisible blade you don't need much by way of the feint tree...in fact you get (at 5th level) the ability to feint as a free action thus keeping your full attack...

Also i really don't think pierce magical protection can be used that way with a ring of blinking...it's meant to deny protection from the spell the enemy has active, not deny the miss chance created from your spell...its says against protection, not against a miss chance you imposed on yourself...in order to do that you need exactly what the book describes as needed to hit you when you are under a blink spell...so you just need see invisibility(or true seeing if you can get it) and a ghost touch weapon...there you go, no miss chance...any weapon that can hit an incorporeal(aka ethereal) being can do it the other way round...

Concerning skill points, how much int you reckon would be enough?
The base skills a rogue needs are balance, blufff, diplomacy, gather information, UMD, open lock, search, disable device,sleight of hand and tumble...

At level 20, in order to have full ranks in all the above skills you need 11(skills)*23(ranks)=253 skill points.
Now the rogue gets 8 skill points per level(not counting intelligence)
8*20+8*3(the x4 skill point from first level)=184 skill points.
Therefore you need 253-184=69 skill points from intelligence
thus 69 divided by 23(the times you add int to skills points)=3...

Therefore with a starting stat of 14 and a +4 intelligence item you easily get 18 intelligence and can now max out another 2 skills...

P.S. i think i went about the calculations in a very roundabout, long way around way...but since it works out no biggie...

Anyway...point is, you don't really need to worry about int so much, a starting stat of 12 and a +4 item will work out fine for all the above skills...if there are any more then 14+4 should do the trick...i don't think i left out any necessary skills though...

Chronos
2007-10-05, 09:49 PM
The base skills a rogue needs are balance, blufff, diplomacy, gather information, UMD, open lock, search, disable device,sleight of hand and tumble...You left off Move Silently and Hide, which I would put ahead of Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and maybe Sleight of Hand on the list. Spot and Listen are also good choices, since the other side can use Hide and Move Silently, too, and the other members of your party are likely to not have them as class skills.

kemmotar
2007-10-05, 09:53 PM
You left off Move Silently and Hide, which I would put ahead of Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and maybe Sleight of Hand on the list. Spot and Listen are also good choices, since the other side can use Hide and Move Silently, too, and the other members of your party are likely to not have them as class skills.

True...how the hell did i forget them??hehe....

so we go to 18 int needed...basically i dont think you need tumble maxed out anyway...all you need is more than 15(which if i am not mistaken is the DC to pass through a threatened square..)and after having so many other skills...let someone else take spot and listen...you're doing pretty much everything in the party...maybe remove slight of hand and bump up intelligence to 22(i made a mistake before, it was 20 needed not 18...) to include listen and spot....
And then another 4 intelligence for hide and move silently...26...that's a big intelligence score we need here...I don't think skill monkeys were meant to have every single feat in the class skill list...maybe drop the social ones?leave those to the bard?so that leaves us with 2 fewer skills(gather information and diplomacy) so we can drop intelligence back to 22...
Actually remove balance too and replace it with diplomacy...always need diplomacy...

P.S. sorry if the text seems a bit incoherent...i did a few editings...i apologize...it is 4 am thoughh:smallredface:

Cybren
2007-10-05, 10:15 PM
Someone suggested shadow dancer, which is, in my opinion, a really lame PrC.
The only reason people take it is because Rogue 20 is a dead level. Shadowdancer 1, is, basically, the real Rogue 20.

kemmotar
2007-10-05, 10:27 PM
I would never take shadow dancer as a PrC...sure its nice but not more than 1 level as suggested...only for HipS, however it's feat requirements are quite useless in general...Maybe you can combine the doge requirement with defensive throw, combat expertise and improved trip...probably exotic weapon proficiency for spiked chain, weapon finesse...i think deathstrike bracers are also a must so you can SA stuff you normally can't...

Is the trip roll you make only based on str or dex too?Therefore the DC the enemy would have to make is size modifier+str or dex+othe modifiers, or just str?
Is trip build a viable build for a rogue?

Anxe
2007-10-05, 11:44 PM
It is a lame class. I was just saying it was the best one for non-evil rogues in 3.5. Ninja of the Crescent Moon in 3.0 was much better.

EDIT: Trip isn't a bad build for Rogues, but the feint build is better. By RAW creatures still get their Dex while prone, so you can't sneak attack with the attack from improved trip.

Curmudgeon
2007-10-06, 05:39 AM
Is the trip roll you make only based on str or dex too?Therefore the DC the enemy would have to make is size modifier+str or dex+othe modifiers, or just str?
Is trip build a viable build for a rogue? No, trip is a really sucky idea for a Rogue. Trip is always based on your STR (which is usually a good choice for a Rogue's dump stat), and requires that plus two feats (Improved Trip and Exotic Weapon Proficiency: spiked chain) to be viable; the Rogue doesn't get any bonus feats, and has only 3/4 BAB for the initial attack. These are all things a Rogue is much worse at than a Fighter. And tripping doesn't make the target any easier to sneak attack.

The right approach for a Rogue is to concentrate on what they're good at: skills and sneak attack.

Curmudgeon
2007-10-06, 06:02 AM
hide in plain sight hides you in the shadow plane(if i remember correctly) No, you don't remember correctly. You're only required to be near shadows, not in them. And while the ability to Hide in Plain Sight is Supernatural, your Hide check is completely mundane.

This can be explained by thinking about trying to Hide right next to an enemy who can cast Antimagic Field. If they cast it before you attempt to Hide, it nullifies the Supernatural HiPS ability -- and you can't Hide while they're looking at you, so you don't get to make the skill check at all.

But if they don't cast Antimagic Field until you're already hidden, it's too late for the spell to do anything. Your Supernatural ability has already been used, and you've already made your Hide check because you were able to do so. Your Hide check is then opposed by the enemy's Spot on the turn when they cast Antimagic Field, and it's a purely mundane skill use. It also doesn't matter if they have See Invisibility, True Seeing, or any other such ability unless it explicitly nullifies Supernatural abilities at the time you'd use your HiPS. Your Hide skill itself is purely nonmagical.

DoomBard
2007-10-08, 10:26 AM
Skills, feats, and stats make the ultimate rogue.

Person_Man
2007-10-08, 02:24 PM
Here's some general advice and questions:

1) Do you want to be a Rogue, or do you want to be able to do certain things? If you know you want to play a strait Rogue, that's fine. But you can probably accomplish high damage output + stealth better with a different build. Which do you want?

2) If you want to be a melee Rogue, you need high Str. You can fake it with high Dex and Weapon Finesse, but that's a waste of a precious feat, and your average damage will be lower. You also need high Con, something that no feat can truly replace. Without it, you will quickly go splat. Then maximize your # of attacks, usually via Two Weapon Fighting or natural attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58906).

3) If you want to be a bow Rogue, you need Greater Manyshot (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicFeats.html#greater-manyshot) and a means of qualifying for Sneak Attack every round, usually Greater Invisibility or a Ring of Blinking. Unfortunately, this combo usually doesn't kick in until mid-high levels. If you choose to be a bow Rogue, you should also pick up Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer).

4) The quickest way to get Hide in Plain sight is to use my Adept of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) trick. Avoid Shadowdancer like the plague. It's a waste.

5) The Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness) allows your Hide check to work against everything except True Seeing. The only defense against True Seeing is killing the enemy that has it.

6) Silencing Strike is a bit of a waste unless your DM is fond of full casters with an insane number of hit points. You should pretty much be able to kill anything that you can Sneak Attack in one round, especially d8 or d4 hit die casters. If you can't, it means that you've wasted too many feats on garbage like Silencing Strike.

7) Whisper Gnome is a great race for a Rogue. However, if you do want to be some crazy race that you normally wouldn't play, this is your chance. Skill Monkey's are pretty much the only build where I would consider picking up a race with LA. They don't need caster levels, and they don't need high BAB to fuel Power Attack. Look for something with high Int, Dex, and useful special abilities. Pixie is a good example (all day Greater Invisibility). If you have racial hit dice, consider taking the Otherworldly feat (Races of Faerun), which turns you into a Native Outsider. Outsiders have excellent racial features.

trainer343
2007-10-08, 04:10 PM
I'm a melee guy, but I do have one (new) rouge planed out to lv.28

Race: Bugbear
Rog 5, Asn 3, Invisible blade 5, Asn 9, Rog 13, Asn 10.

Assassin for the poison use and spells, Invisible blade for it's feint abilities.

trehek
2007-10-08, 05:34 PM
Definitely one of the best feats for a rogue is Telling Blow (PHB 2). You crit -> you sneak. Perfect for the situations when you are unable to get a flank.

A very useful PrC for a rogue IMHO is the Shadowbane Stalker (Complete Adventurer). It requires 1 level in a divine class so you get detect evil. It gives Sneak Attack every 3rd level (which is still better than many other PrCs), but adds a lot of divine casting power and some unique class features. Take with it some select swift action spells from the Spell Compendium, and you'll be sneaking undeads, constructs and dealing other nice stuff along with your sneaks.

Chronos
2007-10-08, 08:07 PM
5) The Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness) allows your Hide check to work against everything except True Seeing. The only defense against True Seeing is killing the enemy that has it.Plain old ordinary Hide works just fine against True Seeing, without needing any feats. The spell description explicitly states that it doesn't work against someone who's nonmagically hiding.

Thinker
2007-10-08, 08:38 PM
Plain old ordinary Hide works just fine against True Seeing, without needing any feats. The spell description explicitly states that it doesn't work against someone who's nonmagically hiding.

He's referring to things such as tremorsense and blindsense.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-08, 09:15 PM
My favorite thing whenever I make a rogue is to take penetrating strike from Dungeonscape. It lets you do half SA against things immune to it. Works for me.

When it comes to ranged vs. melee, ranged seems to be the most optimal. One trick that I use (which I don't know is RAW) is Weapon Proficiency: Arrow. This lets you get cheep melee weapons (1/2 the cost!) and threaten the squares infront of you when using a bow. Improved Unarmed Strike works if you can't let the Arrow thing fly.

SA is difficult to get at a range (or atleast more so than melee), but a wand of grease and some high UMD makes this useful. Against flyers, hold person works (if the fall doesn't kill them, making them a pin cussion will).

PersonofJid
2007-10-08, 10:24 PM
In my opinion, a good feat for any rogue would be Deadly Precision (Expanded Psionics Handbook). It allows rogues to reroll any 1's they roll on their sneak attack damage. It's a general feat too, so you don't have to be psionic in order to use it.


The Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness) allows your Hide check to work against everything except True Seeing. The only defense against True Seeing is killing the enemy that has it.

I also suggest the Darkstalker feat, but I don't see how True Seeing negates it.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-08, 10:30 PM
[QUOTE=PersonofJid;3316166]In my opinion, a good feat for any rogue would be Deadly Precision (Expanded Psionics Handbook). It allows rogues to reroll any 1's they roll on their sneak attack damage. It's a general feat too, so you don't have to be psionic in order to use it.
QUOTE]

Greater Manyshot was in Psionics Handbook, Deadly Precision was in Complete Psionic. I guess having a useful rogue feat is a prerequisite for any psionic book, eh?

Draz74
2007-10-08, 11:09 PM
Greater Manyshot was in Psionics Handbook, Deadly Precision was in Complete Psionic. I guess having a useful rogue feat is a prerequisite for any psionic book, eh?

Deadly Precision is in the XPH (or at least, in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#deadlyPrecision)), and it's a horrible feat. It adds +0.5 average damage to each sneak attack die that you roll. I'd rather take Toughness.

Chronos
2007-10-09, 01:03 AM
It adds +0.5 average damage to each sneak attack die that you roll.+0.416, actually, on average.

Personally, I think that Sneak Attack is a bit overrated, anyway. The ideal adventure for a rogue is one where he manages to avoid all combat. If he does end up in combat, it's nice to have that edge, but the core of the rogue is skills, not fighting.

And why the heck are those feats in psionic books, anyway? Some folks at Wizards came up with some new feat ideas, so they just shoehorned them into the next book they sent to the presses?

Thinker
2007-10-09, 08:27 AM
+0.416, actually, on average.

Personally, I think that Sneak Attack is a bit overrated, anyway. The ideal adventure for a rogue is one where he manages to avoid all combat. If he does end up in combat, it's nice to have that edge, but the core of the rogue is skills, not fighting.

And why the heck are those feats in psionic books, anyway? Some folks at Wizards came up with some new feat ideas, so they just shoehorned them into the next book they sent to the presses?

Well they do have that Psychic Rogue (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkkvagwtHqKQAbCpXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTExY281YmE wBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkAwRsA1dTMQ--/SIG=12clfl3t9/EXP=1192023386/**http%3a//www.wizards.com/default.asp%3fx=dnd/psm/20040723b)

Person_Man
2007-10-09, 08:57 AM
I also suggest the Darkstalker feat, but I don't see how True Seeing negates it.

Sorry, I miss wrote. True Seeing isn't applicable.