What's the most powerful 3.5 core build?

[Endarire]

Intro
Greetings, all!

Recently, a friend and I have been debating what the most powerful core 3.5 character would be. 'Most powerful' in this case is one able to survive and thrive in a variety of situations, preferably able to handle the game solo when a party of 4+ is normally expected. (Minions gained from spells, class features, skills, feats, and similar sources are allowed and don't count against the 'solo' assumption.) Thus, assume some combination of overworld/overland travel, interplanar travel, dungeon/underground exploration, social situations, knowledge situations, combat situations, and otherwise for this character.

This character's ability to overcome challenges is continually tested since this character is continually being challenged. (Off-days are still permissible and likely, but reaching level 20 is still the end goal.)

No (nearly) infinite loops.

Character Creation
-Sources: PHB1, DMG1, and MM1 only with the latest errata.
-Classes: PHB1 base classes only. No prestige classes. No multiclassing.
-Ability Score Generation: 32 point buy.
-Starting ECL: 1

Modifier 1
-Multiclassing and PrCs are allowed. Favored class penalties exist only if you want them to. How do things change?

Modifier 2
-Ability score generation is any number of points, though all stats are capped at 18 before modifiers from race, items, age, etc. How do things change?

Modifier 3
-Minions obtained via money are allowed, such as animals and hirelings.

Modifier 4
-All SRD content is allowed, except gestalt.

Modifier 5
Gestalt is allowed.

My Thoughts
Dwarf Druid all the way (except perhaps dipping Monk1 for its goodies) is probably best in this case due to darkvision, a CON bonus, and not needing to highly prioritize STR and DEX. You get 4+INT modifier skill points per level, Spot and Listen as class skills, d8, 2 good saves, and other goodies. Take Leadership at level 6 for a Cleric cohort (Magic and Travel domains) who might be a Dwarf and Natural Spell at 9.

Alternatively, a Human or Dwarf Generalist Wizard may be more viable due to his utility and crowd control spells.

[Helluin]

No modifier: Holy Word (And friends)-focused Cleric with at least +10 to CL;
Modifier 1: not sure, maybe Holy Word Cleric with Hierophant, or Archmage with the right arcana;
Modifier 2: doesn’t change much
Modifier 3: well, spell point is SRD content...:smalleek:

[Troacctid]

I feel like the answer is very clearly druid.

[Aharon]

Assuming you mean a PO build without excessive cheese, I would probably go with Commodore Guff, Doc Roc's build found here (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html?id=338867), that was competing in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?154844-Gia-vs-Doc-Roc-oh-the-insanity) contest.

It uses a debatable wording in Magic Jar (arguing that having no defined place where your soul goes means you keep your current body), though. The judge in this competition ruled it legal, but there are other opinions.

[emeraldstreak]

Starting at ECL 1, must-be-able to solo all encounters normally for 4+, is a very different character compared to ECL 20.

If power is measured only at the end, but 1-20 survival was required, then access to lvl 9 spells is crucial.

If power is measured for each level, with the best character simply being the best at as many levels as possible, then casting level is far less of a concern compared to spell access. Such a character will be blasting lvl 8 spells (available per the PHB equipment rules) as soon as possible.

[RoboEmperor]

I feel like the answer is very clearly druid.

No it's wizard. At the start maybe druid but Planar Binding line of spells, Polymorph line of spells, and Simulacrum dwarf the druid starting at level 7.

[Gnaeus]

No it's wizard. At the start maybe druid but Planar Binding line of spells, Polymorph line of spells, and Simulacrum dwarf the druid starting at level 7.

Emperor is correct. Druid is personally a tougher at most levels, but wizards have a better toolkit. And the core Druid misses a lot of its versatility tricks like enhance wildshape.

[Efrate]

You have 3 options, maybe.4, cleric, druid, or wizard. Psion maybe since its srd. Everything else does not compete.

Without dmm cleric has to optimize for CL, which is plus 6 max in core? Or for rebuke/animate undead. Prayer bead, domain plus 1 and orange ioun stone? Think thats all unless there is a psionic trick I am unaware if with those sources. Planar ally is nice as well but its more restrictive than binding. Animate dead is online at 5 for you plus semi permanent rubuked creatures but I do not think command undead is in a phb domain. Dwarf cleric in full plate is pretty durable early fwiw.

Druid is great at 1 through 6, dwarf is nice but gnome might be better since you more easily ride a mount. You get pet upgrade at 4 (is dire bat a 4th level option) wild shape at 5, and at 6 it gets pretty dang great with natural spell. You remain great but not insane 7 through 20.

Wizard is trash 1 and 2, though sleep and a heavy pick should do it most the time. Elf for longbow and kiting good vs. most foes. Halfling gets more survivability but medium longbows a lot better than small slings. At level 3 with downtime wizard can surpass because of command undead. Find some big zombies and zombie away your problems. Or maybe something better situationally that fails a save. At 7 you get animate dead and lpb, so you win from there on out. Plus polymorph.

Psion might make it if there is an infinite pp trick just in the srd, I do not think there is, but idk I am very weak on psionics.

[Biggus]

No modifier: Holy Word (And friends)-focused Cleric with at least +10 to CL;


How are you getting +10CL in core?


No it's wizard. At the start maybe druid but Planar Binding line of spells, Polymorph line of spells, and Simulacrum dwarf the druid starting at level 7.

A solo Wizard is seriously vulnerable at level 1-4, it'd only take one decent hit and they'd never make it to higher levels...

[RoboEmperor]

A solo Wizard is seriously vulnerable at level 1-4, it'd only take one decent hit and they'd never make it to higher levels...

Good thing Guard Dogs are only 25gp and in core and Heavy Warhorses are 400gp and in core. Just buy an animal army until you get your levels.

[Malphegor]

Good thing Guard Dogs are only 25gp and in core and Heavy Warhorses are 400gp and in core. Just buy an animal army until you get your levels.

Huh. It has never occured to me in the year or so of playing that you can buy animals. We mostly end up getting our druid to befriend wild ones or new characters come wit-

We were literally in a town that sold dire wolf puppies and it never occured to me when I had all the monies...

Ok I need to up my game and stop playing spellcasters for a bit. I get a bit magic-tunnel visioned and forget that nonmagical stuff is useful.

[RoboEmperor]

Huh. It has never occured to me in the year or so of playing that you can buy animals. We mostly end up getting our druid to befriend wild ones or new characters come wit-

We were literally in a town that sold dire wolf puppies and it never occured to me when I had all the monies...

Ok I need to up my game and stop playing spellcasters for a bit. I get a bit magic-tunnel visioned and forget that nonmagical stuff is useful.

Don't beat yourself up. I came up with the animal army trying to solve my necromancer's corpse sourcing problem. So it was spellcasting that led me to it.

[liquidformat]

Good thing Guard Dogs are only 25gp and in core and Heavy Warhorses are 400gp and in core. Just buy an animal army until you get your levels.

Do you know what is even better than having an army of animals? being able to control said animals, so ya the druid is still winning for the first 5 levels.

[Gnaeus]

Do you know what is even better than having an army of animals? being able to control said animals, so ya the druid is still winning for the first 5 levels.

This is mostly true (although a wizard with sleep and color spray will still outperform most PCs for combat contribution and utility beginning at level 1. Druid is still better).

I dispute 5. But it really doesn’t matter. Even if Druid clearly wins 1-6 and wizard 7-20, still isn’t much of an argument for Druid.

[RoboEmperor]

Do you know what is even better than having an army of animals? being able to control said animals, so ya the druid is still winning for the first 5 levels.

So a DC10 untrained handle animal check to make the domesticated trained animals guard you all day is impossible?

And ofc druid wins first 5 levels. You know what's better than an animal army? Animal army + animal companion.

[emeraldstreak]

Sleep's 1 round casting time is an extremely poor choice on a lonely frail dude who'll routinely end up surprised due to abysmal perceptive/infiltration skills.

[Pippin]

Psion might make it if there is an infinite pp trick just in the srd, I do not think there is, but idk I am very weak on psionics.
I know that there's always Affinity Field + any two psionic friends knowing Bestow Power, or Fission + one Affinity Field each + Bestow Power. I'm not aware of any core recharge trick without Affinity Field though. They come online very late.

[Gnaeus]

Sleep's 1 round casting time is an extremely poor choice on a lonely frail dude who'll routinely end up surprised due to abysmal perceptive/infiltration skills.

1. Why do you think he has poor perception infiltration skills? He has a pile of skill points and a familiar. He can trivially have a bat, with blindsense, or an owl, with +16 listen. Wizard has the best perception skills of any level 1 character.

2. Sleep isn’t a poor choice. It’s a situational choice. Sleep can disable multiple enemies from 110 feet away. No other core level 1 Spell can do that. If enemies are in your face, use color spray instead. If they are 95 feet off and your tank is between you, sleep is amazing.

And you know what is amazing about situational choices for wizards? You get a lot of them. Scribe scroll is free. If you can win 1 fight a week later you could have scrolls of sleep, grease, charm person, mage armor, mount, expeditious retreat, animate rope, color spray, comprehend language for 112 gp.

[RoboEmperor]

I know that there's always Affinity Field + any two psionic friends knowing Bestow Power, or Fission + one Affinity Field each + Bestow Power. I'm not aware of any core recharge trick without Affinity Field though. They come online very late.

i believe it uses the Torc. But Psionics is not core so it's moot.

[Doug Lampert]

Sleep's 1 round casting time is an extremely poor choice on a lonely frail dude who'll routinely end up surprised due to abysmal perceptive/infiltration skills.

There are also too many things that are flatly immune to sleep to depend on it when you only get 3-5 level 1 spells at level 1-2. It's situational, you won't want to prepare it more than once.

If I'm actually going to game this, say there's an impartial GM, you have to advance by soloing 4 encounters per day with EL=your level or one level lower, leveling is only at the end of the day, with some downtime between days, I start at level 1 and end at level 20, with a prize for making it to 20, I go druid.

Same conditions, but there are 100 contestants, and those who survive to 20 fight a tournament (random seeding) to the death at level 20 and the winner of that gets a prize. It's cleric, he's less survivable than druid at early levels, but may make it to 5, at which point desecrate+animate makes him effectively unkillable and he's got a real chance at 20 due to having stuff like miracle available. Note that druid still wins if the point buy or rolling method for abilities isn't extremely generous, the cleric needs strength+con to survive low levels (he's basically a self-healing fighter with some spells level 1-4), but then he needs to have high wisdom for things like save DCs at higher levels. Use 25 point buy or elite array or something similar as ability generation, and low level survival basically requires druid.

Make low level survival a lot easier than above, and I'll go wizard.

Survival is never a problem after level 5, as all characters take leadership at level 6 and take a generalist wizard cohort, unless the character is a wizard, then he takes a cleric. Since your cohort will be level 18 when you reach the endgame, you can choose domains and races for early survival, knowing that all level 9 wizard magic is available endgame.

[liquidformat]

So a DC10 untrained handle animal check to make the domesticated trained animals guard you all day is impossible?

And ofc druid wins first 5 levels. You know what's better than an animal army? Animal army + animal companion.

Handle Animal (Cha; Trained Only) 'Guard (DC 20): The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.'

good luck with that dc 10 untrained check of yours... Even if you make it just means the dog will stand there and watch you get shot to death. These shenanigans really depend on how much bs and how easy going of a dm you have.

So it seems to me that this whole thing comes down to who will make it to level 6 alive soloing because after that it is kind of irrelevant, sure a wizard gets awesome spells but they are also statistically most likely to die from levels 1-5. Also there isn't enough of a difference in survivability for a wizard compared to a druid level 7-20. In the end It seems like the druid is the best choice, followed by the cleric, and the wizard takes up the rear.

[Blackhawk748]

So a DC10 untrained handle animal check to make the domesticated trained animals guard you all day is impossible?

And ofc druid wins first 5 levels. You know what's better than an animal army? Animal army + animal companion.

I think the bigger issue is, is that the Wizard is going through all of their money to get a dog to keep them safe while the Druid got a better one for free.

I put money on the Druid being the best, as while a Wizard can get truly insane, they have no room for error while the Druid is far more survivable and can do their own shapeshifting BS without eating spells.

[ericgrau]

It's hard to say. It's easy to make a decent core druid, it's hard to make a great one. Wizard or perhaps sorc has the most good options, but in core only unless you cheese it hard a beatstick is ahead against monsters at many levels. Especially if this is solo level 1 to 20. For that matter soloing at all at high level is hard, because it only takes 1 failed save to end the campaign. You'd at least need an NPC to rez your corpse from time to time. Maybe some kind of miniomancer so you don't roll saves yourself?

Rolling 1s and dying aside, maybe a gish like an EK? Level 1 can be a high HP beatstick who later sheds his armor. You're only 1 spell level behind so this can be a gish that usually uses his spells rather than his sword. Later on anyway. Or maybe straight wizard who simply tries for easy challenges at low level and avoids anything else ("Those bandits must suck, sorry, bye."). Or is this solo adventurer supposed to actually replace a party of 4 at equal encounter level? I know a wizard can do ok at low level in core, but he doesn't do great and too much encounter level will stomp him. Just like the druid can do decently at all levels, but not necessarily that great in core.

Btw the druid riding dog trip trick requires 5-6 weeks of prep. 6-7 including the trick to let him attack all creature types. And that's if the druid has a pumped handle animal to take a 10. Otherwise he'll take much longer. Before that the riding dog is much weaker. During which time any class could make some profession checks and also get plenty of money for a variety of useful things.

[Khedrac]

Handle Animal (Cha; Trained Only) 'Guard (DC 20): The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.'
The quoted DC (20) is the DC to teach the trick to an animal - and you can buy them trained for purposes. The DC is 10 to get an animal to perform a trick it knows.

HANDLE ANIMAL (CHA; TRAINED ONLY)

Check: The DC depends on what you are trying to do.
Task Handle Animal DC
Handle an animal 10

Handle an Animal: This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

[ericgrau]

A guard dog is much weaker than a riding dog btw. CR 1/3 instead of CR 1 for a reason. Less HP, less attack bonus and less damage. The druid riding dog is missing his trip attack and only understands 1 trick to start. The trick the druid selects is most likely to attack any of 4 creature types. But it's still much better than a guard dog. OTOH the guard dog most likely knows 4 tricks from the start rather than just 1:


An animal trained to guard knows the tricks attack, defend, down, and guard

"Down" means stop attacking. Otherwise once you say "attack" the dog won't stop. "Attack" likewise only works on any of 4 creature types: humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, animals. Undead, construct, magical beast, abberation, dragon, plant, vermin, ooze, fey, and you're screwed with either class. Being able to attack any creature type is an additional trick.

That magical beast restriction might be the most painful restriction. That or undead. Both classes need to get their animal better trained ASAP or they risk a really ugly fight. And even for the druid the DC is not nice at level 1. He needs a 14 cha to take a 10 at level 1. Or a feat.

[Biggus]

Good thing Guard Dogs are only 25gp and in core and Heavy Warhorses are 400gp and in core. Just buy an animal army until you get your levels.

That is a pretty good survival strategy. Where are Guard Dogs listed? I can only find standard Dog and Riding Dog.


For that matter soloing at all at high level is hard, because it only takes 1 failed save to end the campaign. You'd at least need an NPC to rez your corpse from time to time.


This is a good point, I'm not certain what class I want but I do know I want a Cleric cohort.

[ericgrau]

That is a pretty good survival strategy. Where are Guard Dogs listed? I can only find standard Dog and Riding Dog.
In the SRD I only see guard dog and riding dog. Is the PHB different?

[RoboEmperor]

Handle Animal (Cha; Trained Only) 'Guard (DC 20): The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.'

good luck with that dc 10 untrained check of yours... Even if you make it just means the dog will stand there and watch you get shot to death. These shenanigans really depend on how much bs and how easy going of a dm you have.

So it seems to me that this whole thing comes down to who will make it to level 6 alive soloing because after that it is kind of irrelevant, sure a wizard gets awesome spells but they are also statistically most likely to die from levels 1-5. Also there isn't enough of a difference in survivability for a wizard compared to a druid level 7-20. In the end It seems like the druid is the best choice, followed by the cleric, and the wizard takes up the rear.

Sigh, why don't you actually read the entire skill before questioning someone who actually used those rules in a real game?


Untrained

If you have no ranks in Handle Animal, you can use a Charisma check to handle and push domestic animals

Who cares about who's stronger at level 1-5. The question is what's the most powerful 3.5 core build. Druid takes the cake for low levels. Wizard blows the druid away early mid all the way to 20 so wizard wins. You can't beat all of the broken spells wizards have access to. LPB gives Nightmare for at-will astral projection and an army of Gargantuan Animated Objects. Succubus for scout and face, and did I mention you can bind an army? And lets not forget eschew materials + simulacrum. Or Hydra polymorphs.

Wizards get an army of pit fiends at level 15. What do druids get?


A guard dog is much weaker than a riding dog btw.

You can buy a riding dog too but if you can buy one you can buy a heavy warhorse and the heavy warhorse is much better.



"Down" means stop attacking. Otherwise once you say "attack" the dog won't stop. "Attack" likewise only works on any of 4 creature types: humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, animals. Undead, construct, magical beast, abberation, dragon, plant, vermin, ooze, fey, and you're screwed with either class. Being able to attack any creature type is an additional trick.

That magical beast restriction might be the most painful restriction. That or undead. Both classes need to get their animal better trained ASAP or they risk a really ugly fight. And even for the druid the DC is not nice at level 1. He needs a 14 cha to take a 10 at level 1. Or a feat.

The Guard command is not restricted by attack's type restrictions. Guard attacks anything that threatens you or the animal.


That is a pretty good survival strategy. Where are Guard Dogs listed? I can only find standard Dog and Riding Dog.

In the SRD I only see guard dog and riding dog. Is the PHB different?

It's just a normal dog that's trained to guard.

[Particle_Man]

With modifier 3 I would assume that a gestalt druid/wizard would win, given the "druid vs. wizard" battle in this thread. :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

You can buy a riding dog too but if you can buy one you can buy a heavy warhorse and the heavy warhorse is much better.


Yes, eventually both riding dog and warhorse are options to consider. But a riding dog isn't affordable at level 1.



The Guard command is not restricted by attack's type restrictions. Guard attacks anything that threatens you or the animal.

Yeah but guard has other restrictions:


Guard (DC 20): The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.

Trying to use guard as a substitute for attack sounds fishy at best. Moving behind your animal and saying guard isn't that bad of an idea against melee foes. But many foes have ranged attacks, including many primarily melee foes. Even for melee charges attacking sooner is better than attacking after waiting for the enemy to approach first. Especially at low level when that first attack might drop the companion or force him to flee. Teaching him to attack all creature types is ideal, and having the ability to attack the 4 common creature types before they approach is much nicer than waiting. I can see why a druid might make his first trick guard instead of attack, but it's still far from ideal. And guard isn't necessarily the better choice out of the two.

Also arguably an animal companion or even a friendly dog might protect its owner even without any tricks, though only after he was attacked or otherwise realized his owner was threatened. He most likely will protect himself regardless.


With modifier 3 I would assume that a gestalt druid/wizard would win, given the "druid vs. wizard" battle in this thread. :smallbiggrin:
Sounds great at high level, but that's the easy part. Besides the need for rez help from even a single failed save at high level. If this is meant to survive low level like 1-4 or perhaps even 1-7ish, maybe gestalt wizard with something more stabby like barbarian & fighter. I mean druid is already a little bit of a gish in a can, so gestalting with a full caster is partially redundant. Sure it gets you more dakka later on, but that may not be the issue. And all this assumes "all SRD" includes optional rules like gestalt. It may not.

[RoboEmperor]

Yes, eventually both riding dog and warhorse are options to consider. But a riding dog isn't affordable at level 1.


Yeah but guard has other restrictions:

Trying to use guard as a substitute for attack sounds fishy at best. Moving behind your animal and saying guard isn't that bad of an idea against melee foes. But many foes have ranged attacks, including many primarily melee foes. Even for melee charges attacking sooner is better than attacking after waiting for the enemy to approach first. Especially at low level when that first attack might drop the companion or force him to flee. Teaching him to attack all creature types is ideal, and having the ability to attack the 4 common creature types before they approach is much nicer than waiting. I can see why a druid might make his first trick guard instead of attack, but it's still far from ideal. And guard isn't necessarily the better choice out of the two.

Also arguably an animal companion or even a friendly dog might protect its owner even without any tricks, though only after he was attacked or otherwise realized his owner was threatened. He most likely will protect himself regardless.

I meant defend not guard. My bad. Handle it so it defends you and it will defend you forever against all creature types. You can't do anything advanced though like attack the spellcaster first and whatnot, but it's your only choice if you don't have any ranks in handle animal.

[Piggy Knowles]

The conversation about guard dogs seems like a bit of a red herring. Not only is it something any class from wizard to commoner can do, it's also something that a druid explicitly does better than a wizard at low levels. A Charisma-based DC 10 check on a cross-class skill every time you want your guard dog to attack is absolutely going to fail a bunch during the early levels of the game. Having guard dogs is still a great idea, and I tend to consider them a better investment for your average wizard than a crossbow, but it's not going to solve all of a wizard's problems. A druid gets an already-trained and superior guard dog to begin with, plus the druid can ALSO purchase guard dogs, can even train guard dogs herself, can buff guard dogs from a fairly low level, and has a better chance of successfully handling them in combat. The only area where the wizard comes out ahead is in terms of starting gold... but by that metric, the paladin, ranger and fighter outclass all of them, as they not only have the highest starting gold but also have handle animal as a class skill.

As others mentioned, the overall answer is definitely druid or wizard, with druid coming ahead in those oh-so-fatal early levels, and wizards catching up around ECL 7 and pulling ahead at ECL 9 (though I do think that there's no appreciable power difference between a high-op wizard, druid, sorcerer or cleric in core past ECL 17).

LEVELS 1-2: The druid has a more robust chassis, access to armor, better saves and an animal companion that is going to be quite effective (and also fairly expendable). Spells like entangle and produce flame provide reasonable offensive options against most foes. The wizard has extremely low hit points, no armor and worse saves, and in any sort of solo environment, that's deadly as all heck. Also, while a familiar is a good way to keep an eye out for danger, it is NOT expendable in the same way that an animal companion is. Wizards do have access to more encounter-ending options like sleep and color spray, but these spells also have the drawback of doing nothing on a failed save and having more scenarios in which they are not appropriate. Druid is the clear winner.

LEVELS 3-4: Armor issues are mitigated a bit for wizards as the duration on spells like mage armor is now long enough that they can reasonably keep them up throughout the adventuring day. Second level spells are largely better for the wizard than the druid, especially thanks to the powerhouse that is glitterdust (which is probably the most reliable low level save-or-lose in core). However, druids do still largely have the advantage: the animal companion is still a really big deal at these levels (especially once you hit level 4 and upgrade to a dire bat or leopard), and summoning starts to become a viable tactic. SNA tends to be much stronger than SM at these early levels and in a core environment, as most of the things on the summon monster list have insufficient HD to benefit from the defensive boons that the fiendish/celestial templates provide. Winner: druid.

LEVELS 5-6: 3rd-level spells are a big deal for both the druid and the wizard, and I'd call things about equal here. Both groups get great BFC options that can serve to keep foes locked down and out of reach. This is the first level that I believe SM starts to catch up with SNA, though I don't think it exceeds it yet. However, at these levels wild shape comes into play, and that's a really big deal. The wizard's offensive options are a bit stronger (though not as much as you'd expect - druids get some very nice level 3 spell options in core), but the druid blows it all out of the water thanks to the animal companion and wild shape. Winner: druid.

LEVELS 7-8: Wizards get solid fog and while druids have some nice BFC options like spike stones, they won't have anything quite as good at just shutting down a sizable chunk of level-appropriate foes until 5th-level spells roll around. Both groups get access to scrying, and I put druids slightly ahead in this regard as druids don't have to pay for the extremely costly arcane focus (1,000gp is not an insignificant expenditure at this level). Wizards get polymorph, which has far more potential than wild shape in almost every way, but the duration on wild shape and the existence of Natural Spell means I still think this one leans in favor of the druid (in particular, the duration on wild shape means you're generally not spending an action to polymorph, and in any sort of solo situation, actions are at a premium). And meanwhile druids have upgraded their animal companion to a brown bear, giant crocodile or tiger. Winner: eh, you can make a case for the wizard (solid fog in particular is just that good), but I still think the druid is a bit favored in a solo setting.

LEVELS 9-16: Eh, I could spend a while talking about how great the druid is (and it is), but starting at ECL 9, a wizard can bind a nightmare, giving it access to at-will etherealness and astral projection. Frankly, that alone makes the wizard in another league defensively as compared to the druid. And as effective as the druid is (ECL 9 is when you get animal growth and wall of thorns!), it only really gets worse from there. Winner: wizard (druids are still great though!).

LEVELS 17-20: Honestly in a core setting, once you hit access to shapechange you functionally have access to every spell and ability available in the PHB/DMG/MM, so I find it hard to really call the wizard better at these levels. Yeah, it also gets wish and gate... both of which are accessible via shapechange in core, so again, I consider it functionally moot.

So yeah, I think that until lesser planar binding (i.e. the first way for wizards to reliably access spells and powers way beyond the assumed ECL) is on the table, druids hold out the advantage, and once shapechange comes into play it all pretty much levels out to the point that there's no appreciable difference between the two. That leaves 8 levels where wizard leaves druid in the dust, roughly 6 levels where I'd place the two around even, and 6 levels where the druid is just leaps and bounds ahead of the wizard.

[RoboEmperor]

The conversation about guard dogs seems like a bit of a red herring. Not only is it something any class from wizard to commoner can do, it's also something that a druid explicitly does better than a wizard at low levels.

It's not a red herring. Druid is clearly better, but by how much? Like you said for shapechange, the difference is so trivial it doesn't matter. Likewise my argument has been at low levels because of the whole animal thing druids are superior, but only by a trivial amount, and then once LPB comes in druids are trash compared to wizards so wizards are superior.
Druid:Trivially stronger->trash by comparison.

[ericgrau]

I meant defend not guard. My bad. Handle it so it defends you and it will defend you forever against all creature types. You can't do anything advanced though like attack the spellcaster first and whatnot, but it's your only choice if you don't have any ranks in handle animal.

So actually that's a drawback to the riding dog at first, who starts with only 1 trick and has to pick between the options with pros and cons. A guard dog knows attack, defend, down, AND guard. So tell him to defend you by default, and attack as needed, provided the enemy is the right creature type. A druid can train him to be better, but only after spending 6-7 weeks at level 2-3. Level 1 only if he has a 14 cha or spent a feat. The riding dog is still mostly better than the guard dog, but it isn't without its drawbacks. Like you say it's only so much better than what anyone can do.

Level 1 fighters get pretty good gold. I need to start considering a guard dog or similar animal/hireling/object on all my level 1 fighters or etc. I'll get slightly worse starting armor, but my starting armor gets replaced pretty soon anyway. To be clear hirelings and objects are different but similar tricks. Not things to send into battle, but yes partial replacements for measly level 1 abilities for all classes. I did just load up a character with a hammer, many pitons and crowbar to pull off some low level tricks not dependent on any class feature. Should be fun. I know you can do more but we were limited to basic gear and I'm not yet sure if even basic tools will fly. Probably/hopefully will be fine.

[liquidformat]

I meant defend not guard. My bad. Handle it so it defends you and it will defend you forever against all creature types. You can't do anything advanced though like attack the spellcaster first and whatnot, but it's your only choice if you don't have any ranks in handle animal.

That still doesn't over come the natural issues an animal has with different monster types, so no I don't believe that is a valid argument. An animal not trained to attack an undead or dragon is still going to run away or cower in fear rather than defend/guard when presented with either. Sorry for not fully rereading the skill my bad; however, there is still the glaring issue that cha is a dump stat for wizards, and maybe some issues with dms using the standard handle animal DCs for a cha check. Primarily a wizard is using animals as a meat shield and honestly it isn't a great meat shield at that. Whereas, a druid can functionally train and use the animals for specific purposes.

Between the fact that a wizard is going to struggle to 'handle' his/her animals, has little control over the animals beyond kiting enemies to said animals, basically no way to heal said animals in a cheap timely manner, and has very limited resources between level 1 and 5; I have a hard time seeing having a small army of animals as a valid way for a wizard to solo more than an encounter maybe two a day much less ~4.


1. Why do you think he has poor perception infiltration skills? He has a pile of skill points and a familiar. He can trivially have a bat, with blindsense, or an owl, with +16 listen. Wizard has the best perception skills of any level 1 character.

2. Sleep isn’t a poor choice. It’s a situational choice. Sleep can disable multiple enemies from 110 feet away. No other core level 1 Spell can do that. If enemies are in your face, use color spray instead. If they are 95 feet off and your tank is between you, sleep is amazing.

And you know what is amazing about situational choices for wizards? You get a lot of them. Scribe scroll is free. If you can win 1 fight a week later you could have scrolls of sleep, grease, charm person, mage armor, mount, expeditious retreat, animate rope, color spray, comprehend language for 112 gp.
A familiar is great until it gets hit once by a goblin, your wizard is super squishy with 1d4+con hp/hd your familiar more so with half that.

Considering a druid is one feat away from scribing scrolls and knows all spells on the druid list the druid can do the same thing. Though the wizard does have a better list for doing this.

Still I think this debate comes down to the fact that a wizard is going to have a much harder time making it to level 6 soloing compared to either a druid or a cleric.


So actually that's a drawback to the riding dog at first, who starts with only 1 trick and has to pick between the options with pros and cons. A guard dog knows attack, defend, down, AND guard. So tell him to defend you by default, and attack as needed, provided the enemy is the right creature type. A druid can train him to be better, but only after spending 6-7 weeks at level 2-3. Level 1 only if he has a 14 cha or spent a feat. The riding dog is still mostly better than the guard dog, but it isn't without its drawbacks. Like you say it's only so much better than what anyone can do.

Level 1 fighters get pretty good gold. I need to start considering a guard dog or similar animal/hireling/object on all my level 1 fighters or etc. I'll get slightly worse starting armor, but my starting armor gets replaced pretty soon anyway. To be clear hirelings and objects are different but similar tricks. Not things to send into battle, but yes partial replacements for measly level 1 abilities for all classes. I did just load up a character with a hammer, many pitons and crowbar to pull off some low level tricks not dependent on any class feature. Should be fun. I know you can do more but we were limited to basic gear and I'm not yet sure if even basic tools will fly. Probably/hopefully will be fine.

You are wrong riding dogs come trained for combat riding, plus one free trick, so a druid with a riding dog can start with a riding dog that already knows how to attack all creature types, as well as being able to come, defend, down, guard, and heel.

Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel.

[RoboEmperor]

That still doesn't over come the natural issues an animal has with different monster types, so no I don't believe that is a valid argument. An animal not trained to attack an undead or dragon is still going to run away or cower in fear rather than defend/guard when presented with either.

The type restriction lies solely under the attack section. So it's a rule for the attack command exclusively. If it was some kind of general rule under the animal type section you might have a point but it's not.


Sorry for not fully rereading the skill my bad; however, there is still the glaring issue that cha is a dump stat for wizards, and maybe some issues with dms using the standard handle animal DCs for a cha check. Primarily a wizard is using animals as a meat shield and honestly it isn't a great meat shield at that. Whereas, a druid can functionally train and use the animals for specific purposes.

You can take 20 with Handle Animal so even a Wizard with 6 charisma can get his guard dogs to defend him all day at the start of the day.

You're correct that it isn't a great strategy. But it is much stronger than the crossbow. And Strength in numbers. The dogs can flank and such. If we're going by WBL a level 2 wizard can afford 36 guard dogs which I'm pretty sure can handle most CR2 creatures. Can't handle flying creatures or creatures with DR so in those cases it's up to the wizard's spells.


Between the fact that a wizard is going to struggle to 'handle' his/her animals, has little control over the animals beyond kiting enemies to said animals, basically no way to heal said animals in a cheap timely manner, and has very limited resources between level 1 and 5; I have a hard time seeing having a small army of animals as a valid way for a wizard to solo more than an encounter maybe two a day much less ~4.

Tons of creatures are just about pure brute melee force and they will all die to your army of dogs and horses. But as I mentioned above the harder creatures like Demons and Devils that have DR5 or flight will be impervious to the dogs but not the horses as heavy warhorses pack a wallop. But I don't think the druid will have any better luck than the wizard.

[ericgrau]

That still doesn't over come the natural issues an animal has with different monster types, so no I don't believe that is a valid argument. An animal not trained to attack an undead or dragon is still going to run away or cower in fear rather than defend/guard when presented with either.
That's a good point. I'm trying to remember if that's only in the handle animal skill or if it's something I remember reading more specifically somewhere else too.

A wizard does have trouble with the handle animal DCs but you can at least tell the dog to defend before combat begins, and keep retrying or take a 10. Still not being able to direct it to attack reliably in combat, and as a move action too, is a little bit of a drawback.


The type restriction lies solely under the attack section. So it's a rule for the attack command exclusively. If it was some kind of general rule under the animal type section you might have a point but it's not.
That's not necessarily true or false that it's only for that section. It's simply vague. I'm wondering if I saw the animal's natural aversion to unusual creature types somewhere else too, to help clarify. And the statement "Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals" does sound more like a general statement about animals rather than something specific to that section.



You are wrong riding dogs come trained for combat riding, plus one free trick, so a druid with a riding dog can start with a riding dog that already knows how to attack all creature types, as well as being able to come, defend, down, guard, and heel.

Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel.
Druid animal companions start with 1 trick, not 6, not 7. This sounds more like a willful or heavily biased misreading of the rules, to try to force what would clearly be an abusive loophole to exist. I say would be a loophole because whether or not the rules say actually such a thing applies to the druid's riding dog isn't clear. And it makes far more sense to go with the norm of 1 trick in the face of this ambiguity. EDIT: Ah I do see one source of legitimate confusion. The handle animal skill says riding dogs come trained for combat riding, and that is true of store bought riding dogs. Ugh, 3.5 is annoying.

[Troacctid]

I did a survey of 1st level adventures in Dungeon and about a third of all the enemies at that level have immunity to mind-affecting. Undead are particularly common. The color spray-sleep-guard dog is basically helpless in those scenarios—the dogs won't attack undead and the spells are useless against them.

[RoboEmperor]

That's not necessarily true or false that it's only for that section. It's simply vague. I'm wondering if I saw the animal's natural aversion to unusual creature types somewhere else too, to help clarify. And the statement "Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals" does sound more like a general statement about animals rather than something specific to that section.

Unless you're telling me that dire animals will run away from a skeleton you are incorrect. You can't order an animal to attack undead without special training but nothing stops the animal from defending itself from a skeleton attack. Nowhere in the rules say the animal will run instead of fight and that a skeleton can kill a hundred thousand cornered bears without a scratch.

[Blackhawk748]

You can take 20 with Handle Animal so even a Wizard with 6 charisma can get his guard dogs to defend him all day at the start of the day.

You're correct that it isn't a great strategy. But it is much stronger than the crossbow. And Strength in numbers. The dogs can flank and such. If we're going by WBL a level 2 wizard can afford 36 guard dogs which I'm pretty sure can handle most CR2 creatures. Can't handle flying creatures or creatures with DR so in those cases it's up to the wizard's spells.

Ok, and how are you feeding this horde of Dogs? thats an awful lot of animals to feed and deal with, and most of them won't be useful in the 10 foot wide corridors common to dungeons.

I think 3 or 4 dogs is mroe reasonable, and while helpful, it doesn't solve all of your problems.


Unless you're telling me that dire animals will run away from a skeleton you are incorrect. You can't order an animal to attack undead without special training but nothing stops the animal from defending itself from a skeleton attack. Nowhere in the rules say the animal will run instead of fight and that a skeleton can kill a hundred thousand cornered bears without a scratch.

Except now you're only responding to attacks and the attrition game doesn't favor you. Druids and Clerics could play that and come out ahead as they have native healing. The Wizard has no way to keep their Dog army up and running.

[ericgrau]

Unless you're telling me that dire animals will run away from a skeleton you are incorrect. You can't order an animal to attack undead without special training but nothing stops the animal from defending itself from a skeleton attack. Nowhere in the rules say the animal will run instead of fight and that a skeleton can kill a hundred thousand cornered bears without a scratch.
Uncertain, but they may not recognize a skeleton as a creature at the minimum and could be confused. A dire animal has int 2 and the animal type. It could still be trained with handle animal and somehow have the same restriction about not being allowed to use the attack command against a much weaker creature. So you have to ask why that is. It isn't about the CR. Heck trained animals will still attack giants if commanded. Every type listed isn't natural/normal. Yeah we don't have giants and monstrous humanoids in the real world, but an animal wouldn't be able to tell the difference between those and an animal. If anything the omission of magical beasts is the only grey area.

[Piggy Knowles]

Druid animal companions start with 1 trick, not 6, not 7. This sounds more like a willful or heavily biased misreading of the rules, to try to force what would clearly be an abusive loophole to exist. I say would be a loophole because whether or not the rules say actually such a thing applies to the druid's riding dog isn't clear. And it makes far more sense to go with the norm of 1 trick in the face of this ambiguity.

Even assuming that you're starting at zero tricks other than the bonus trick, don't forget that druids don't need to use their bonus tricks on tricks that last all day, because they can use the push option at the beginning of the day to get their animal companion to perform a trick it doesn't otherwise know. A druid should have 8+Cha to handle animal for their companion at level 1, meaning they should have no trouble with the DC 25 check if they take 20. Taking attack as your bonus trick and pushing defend and heel each morning should tide you over until you have time to specifically train them for combat. And since training only takes three hours out of the day, you should be able to find time to train them daily without getting in the way of your adventuring.

Plus, if we're assuming that wizards can scribe scrolls to increase their utility at level 1, then I think it's only fair to also assume that druids can use that same time to train their animal companion properly.

[RoboEmperor]

Ok, and how are you feeding this horde of Dogs? thats an awful lot of animals to feed and deal with, and most of them won't be useful in the 10 foot wide corridors common to dungeons.

I think 3 or 4 dogs is mroe reasonable, and while helpful, it doesn't solve all of your problems.

3 or 4 warhorses actually. I was just making a point. No one would choose 32 dogs over two warhorses. Anyways food is mega cheap and have the animals cart it around.


Except now you're only responding to attacks and the attrition game doesn't favor you. Druids and Clerics could play that and come out ahead as they have native healing. The Wizard has no way to keep their Dog army up and running.

Healing isn't that amazing. You don't have lesser vigor since this is core-only so you're gonna heal at most one creature to maybe full hp if you aren't unlucky with your rolls. If an animal dies, get a new one. If an animal is hurt badly, get a new one. Natural healing is also a thing.

No one is saying fighter, druid, or cleric isn't superior to wizard at these levels. You are absolutely correct that wizards are inferior and this animal strategy has some limitations. But you're missing the point that wizards can perform more than adequately at these levels with animals until they hit their stride. I'm not confident about 3rd level spells but am definitely confident 4th level spells let the wizard steamroll.


Uncertain, but they may not recognize a skeleton as a creature at the minimum and could be confused. A dire animal has int 2 and the animal type. It could still be trained with handle animal and somehow have the same restriction about not being allowed to use the attack command against a much weaker creature. So you have to ask why that is. It isn't about the CR. Heck trained animals will still attack giants if commanded. Every type listed isn't natural/normal. Yeah we don't have giants and monstrous humanoids in the real world, but an animal wouldn't be able to tell the difference between those and an animal. If anything the omission of magical beasts is the only grey area.

I still maintain if it's not a general rule under the animal subtype or similar it's a rule specific exclusively to the attack command. A defending animal is not "attacking", it's "defending".

[Elkad]

I just can't see the wizard getting through the first few levels alone. He's going to get overwhelmed in combat when 8 kobolds (EL2) attack him at L2.

A couple guard dogs won't save him when he can't even control them reliably. Sure, he can put them on guard pre-combat, but what if the kobolds hang back with their slings?

The druid can likely throw an entangle, send in his barded riding dog, and just run away until the fight is over. If he has a dog pack as well, it isn't even a contest, as he can control them all reliably.


So while the Wizard may ultimately have more power (at 9th or 11th level), he's not going to get there.

[RoboEmperor]

I just can't see the wizard getting through the first few levels alone. He's going to get overwhelmed in combat when 8 kobolds (EL2) attack him at L2.

A couple guard dogs won't save him when he can't even control them reliably. Sure, he can put them on guard pre-combat, but what if the kobolds hang back with their slings?

The druid can likely throw an entangle, send in his barded riding dog, and just run away until the fight is over. If he has a dog pack as well, it isn't even a contest, as he can control them all reliably.


So while the Wizard may ultimately have more power (at 9th or 11th level), he's not going to get there.

Then it's a tie. A druid can't beat two spider swarms (EL2) so he's not gonna get there either.

edit: How about the druid is inside a cave where there are no plants when he gets ambushed by kobolds who are attacking him from above and traps him in a passageway with boulders? You're deliberately creating laser focused scenarios that completely deny the wizard's investment while providing favorable circumstances for the druid as an excuse to say... i don't know what you're trying to say. Just know that I can throw an EL2 encounter in an environment that completely negates the druid's abilities too so your argument isn't really an argument.

[ericgrau]

I still maintain if it's not a general rule under the animal subtype or similar it's a rule specific exclusively to the attack command. A defending animal is not "attacking", it's "defending".
It's not unreasonable to talk about attacks in general under the attack command section. Actually a little less confusing than putting it on top.

Putting it in the animal type rules wouldn't be unusual for 3.5's "Screw you, find what you really want to know on page 438 not here!" style, but it would be incredibly annoying and ****-ish for the authors to do it that way. And non-humanoid PCs aren't that common so it's not really needed elsewhere.

[RoboEmperor]

It's not unreasonable to talk about attacks in general under the attack command section. Actually a little less confusing than putting it on top.

I think sending a dog to attack something in the middle of a melee is very different than a dog biting whatever starts whacking at him. So I think there is a reason that rule is under the attack section only and not a general rule for animals.

[Rebel7284]

At early levels it's certainly a druid. However, with the Red Wizard being in the DMG, that is probably the strongest class in the late game.

[liquidformat]

Then it's a tie. A druid can't beat two spider swarms (EL2) so he's not gonna get there either.

And what exactly is the issue in a druid dealing with 2 spider swarms? Produce flame is pretty much the go to must have level 1 spell along with obscuring mist and entangle. Plus a medium druid is faster than a spider swarm and a small one is riding their riding dog. The druid can either kill the swarms out right or easily escape because they are mindless.

On the other hand kobolds are quite intelligent and there is no issue with them one staying back and using ranged weapons and two targeting the wizard first.

If we have a situation where a level 2 wizard and druid are each soloing 8 kobolds my money is on the druid to win and the wizard to die. And having wbl number of war horses/dogs is doing the wizard little to change this.


Druid animal companions start with 1 trick, not 6, not 7. This sounds more like a willful or heavily biased misreading of the rules, to try to force what would clearly be an abusive loophole to exist. I say would be a loophole because whether or not the rules say actually such a thing applies to the druid's riding dog isn't clear. And it makes far more sense to go with the norm of 1 trick in the face of this ambiguity. EDIT: Ah I do see one source of legitimate confusion. The handle animal skill says riding dogs come trained for combat riding, and that is true of store bought riding dogs. Ugh, 3.5 is annoying.

Riding Dogs come trained for combat riding that is very clearly RAW and why riding dogs are the go to animal companion, the runners up being badgers, camels, and wolves.

[RoboEmperor]

And what exactly is the issue in a druid dealing with 2 spider swarms? Produce flame is pretty much the go to must have level 1 spell along with obscuring mist and entangle. Plus a medium druid is faster than a spider swarm and a small one is riding their riding dog. The druid can either kill the swarms out right or easily escape because they are mindless.

How exactly does produce flame hurt swarms? How exactly does obscure mist protect against tremorsense?


On the other hand kobolds are quite intelligent and there is no issue with them one staying back and using ranged weapons and two targeting the wizard first.

If we have a situation where a level 2 wizard and druid are each soloing 8 kobolds my money is on the druid to win and the wizard to die. And having wbl number of war horses/dogs is doing the wizard little to change this.

You say that but then since 100% of my wizards have tower shields...

[liquidformat]

How exactly does produce flame hurt swarms? How exactly does obscure mist protect against tremorsense?

Since when were spider swarms immune to fire.

Tremor sense only helps when you are within 30' of the swarm so dropping obscuring mist and moving away from the swarm is a valid way to escape a swarm that moves slower than you do...


You say that but then since 100% of my wizards have tower shields...

Yes yes I remember your tower shield forum it is quite interesting and as I recall had some very questionable RAW interpretation to pull off. Either way wizard is more likely to be caught flat footed in a surprise round and much less likely to survive until the next round...

[RoboEmperor]

Since when were spider swarms immune to fire.

Swarms are immune to touch attacks.


Since when were spider swarms immune to fire.

Tremor sense only helps when you are within 30' of the swarm so dropping obscuring mist and moving away from the swarm is a valid way to escape a swarm that moves slower than you do...

So you're gonna escape two creatures that moves 40ft a round by spending an action to create a worthless mist and another action moving 30ft away? And whose large shapeable size lets them completely surround the druid's squares so he has to move 35ft to escape the tremorsense?


Yes yes I remember your tower shield forum it is quite interesting and as I recall had some very questionable RAW interpretation to pull off. Either way wizard is more likely to be caught flat footed in a surprise round and much less likely to survive until the next round...

How come the wizard doesn't get to do a surprise round?

I'm sensing a severe amount of hostility towards wizards from you. I get the feeling you're just grabbing whatever you can to shoot wizards down for some reason without thinking it through. I will repeat no one is saying wizards > druid at low levels. I agree with Piggy Knowles's analysis at post #32. And there was no questionable RAW in my tower shield post. It was me just spending move actions attaching and deattaching tower shields.

[Biggus]

In the SRD I only see guard dog and riding dog. Is the PHB different?

I think we must be looking in different places in the SRD. Can you post the link to where you're looking? I looked under monsters and goods and services and couldn't see guard dog in either of them.

[Gnaeus]

A familiar is great until it gets hit once by a goblin, your wizard is super squishy with 1d4+con hp/hd your familiar more so with half that.

Yeah, if it’s in combat. That bat has +14 hide, +8 move silently, and if goblin sees it, it looks like a bat.

Also, the challenge wasn’t to be better at 4 ecl 1 combat challenges, it was to be better at a range of challenges including social, exploration, and knowledge challenges. What if there is a sudden death trap with a password in ancient Thessalonian? Wizard reads the inscription (using comprehend language if necessary) and passes, Druid dies. (And no lie, I was in a game at con last weekend where my ability to read inscriptions in an ancient language were the difference between a successful mission and a horrifically failed one). Bluff into a kobold camp? Wizard can disguise self, probably speaks draconic, and likely passes. Druid and dog die. Press a button at the other end of a room before you cross the floor? Unseen servant has you covered. Try making your pet do that with handle animal.

Wizard probably has more skill points at the point of the game where that matters. Knows half a dozen languages. And has significantly better utility spells. Yeah 8 kobolds might kill a wizard (or they might not, he has excellent run away abilities, and as mentioned probably speaks draconic and kobolds have a -1 sense motive.). But that thulsa dooms guard patrol could also kill the Druid while the wizard strolls past them, having previously charmed a guard into giving him the night’s password. What if those skeletons only attack intruders who can’t make the know religion check to know the prayer to bane ?

All of which doesn’t mean that Druid doesn’t have a level 1 advantage. They do. But it isn’t as massive as people suggest and there are plenty of encounters where the wizard is as good or better.

[liquidformat]

Swarms are immune to touch attacks.

huh, I had thought that touch worked just not ranged touch but rereading swarms you are correct.


So you're gonna escape two creatures that moves 40ft a round by spending an action to create a worthless mist and another action moving 30ft away? And whose large shapeable size lets them completely surround the druid's squares so he has to move 35ft to escape the tremorsense?

Tactics depend on situation, but obscuring mist has its place, especially if you start over 30' away from them. Anyways, entangle works just fine and unless your wizard has burning hands they aren't exactly in a better situation.


How come the wizard doesn't get to do a surprise round?

I'm sensing a severe amount of hostility towards wizards from you. I get the feeling you're just grabbing whatever you can to shoot wizards down for some reason without thinking it through. I will repeat no one is saying wizards > druid at low levels. I agree with Piggy Knowles's analysis at post #32. And there was no questionable RAW in my tower shield post. It was me just spending move actions attaching and deattaching tower shields.

I didn't say a wizard doesn't get surprise rounds, just that a wizard is more likely to be caught flat footed due to lack of relevant skills. And it isn't that I dislike wizards, they have a lot of great utility spells like Gnaeus and depending on adventures you are soloing can hands down do better than a druid. However, I question the ability of a wizard to solo a lot of combat encounters especially if you have 3 or 4 in a day. Even with an army of animals a wizard is going to struggle to use them as much more than meat shields effectively. I believe it will be common for color spray and sleep to not work effectively, color spray requires pulling enemies into dangerously close quarters, where as utilizing sleep's range effectively will be a struggle with the limited control a wizard has over its animals...

[ericgrau]

I think we must be looking in different places in the SRD. Can you post the link to where you're looking? I looked under monsters and goods and services and couldn't see guard dog in either of them.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#mountsAndRelatedGear

Didn't see the ", guard" maybe?

[Anthrowhale]

Side note: any class can kill a spider swarm in core with a sufficient quantity of alchemicals. This is obviously an expensive solution...

A core-only Cleric with the Magic and Travel domains is pretty good. Magic and carefully spending wealth on partially charged wizard wands/staffs means you effectively have access to most core-only spells. The Travel domain grants some nice spells and gives a Freedom of Movement at starting at level 1. I haven't done a detailed comparison with Wizard or Druid but maybe that's worthwhile?

[RoboEmperor]

I didn't say a wizard doesn't get surprise rounds, just that a wizard is more likely to be caught flat footed due to lack of relevant skills. And it isn't that I dislike wizards, they have a lot of great utility spells like Gnaeus and depending on adventures you are soloing can hands down do better than a druid. However, I question the ability of a wizard to solo a lot of combat encounters especially if you have 3 or 4 in a day. Even with an army of animals a wizard is going to struggle to use them as much more than meat shields effectively. I believe it will be common for color spray and sleep to not work effectively, color spray requires pulling enemies into dangerously close quarters, where as utilizing sleep's range effectively will be a struggle with the limited control a wizard has over its animals...

I'm not saying you're wrong. The best a wizard can do is walk around with a bunch of animals defending him and automatically meleeing everything to death. So if pure brute melee can't solve a situation the wizard will most likely fail. Aforementioned swarm encounter will kill all the animals or result in the loss of all of them because the wizard can't tell them to retreat and the swarm is immune to literally everything the animals can do.

But the wizard can succeed too. I doubt any dire-animal infested adventure/campaign can stand a chance to a warhorse army. My point was using encounters advantageous to the druid but not to the wizard is not an argument to say the wizard will fail while the druid will succeed. The druid is equally susceptible to specific encounters that counter his strategy as the wizard is. Like being indoors with no vegetation.

[Troacctid]

For the record, dog minions are not actually allowed under our parameters, since they're not class-derived. Also, they have garbage stats, so you should really be getting mules, which are way more powerful as combatants and cost a third of the price.

[RoboEmperor]

For the record, dog minions are not actually allowed under our parameters, since they're not class-derived. Also, they have garbage stats, so you should really be getting mules, which are way more powerful as combatants and cost a third of the price.

Where does it say you can't have minions derived from wealth?

And you're absolutely right! It may require the wizard to have 12 Cha with 2 ranks of handle animal and 50gp spent on the mwk animal handling tool but it's better than the guard dogs.

[Troacctid]

Where does it say you can't have minions derived from wealth?

And you're absolutely right! It may require the wizard to have 12 Cha with 2 ranks of handle animal and 50gp spent on the mwk animal handling tool but it's better than the guard dogs.
"Minions gained from spells, class features, and similar sources are allowed and don't count against the 'solo' assumption." Minions purchased with gold are not included in this exemption. If they were, then of course what you would really want would be hireling mercenaries, who are actually quite underpriced, even when you factor in hazard pay.

[Endarire]

Let's assume purchased minions (hirelings, animals, etc.) are allowed as a separate modifier. How does that change things?

I also updated and clarified the original post.

[emeraldstreak]

Let's assume purchased minions (hirelings, animals, etc.) are allowed as a separate modifier. How does that change things?


Makes the Aristocrat a top class for it at lvl 1, that's about it.

[Eldariel]

Makes the Aristocrat a top class for it at lvl 1, that's about it.

Wizard has the "sell my spellbook, buy things"-option too. Which has...obvious downsides, but also upsides.

[emeraldstreak]

I also updated and clarified the original post.

What the original post is missing are restrictions to getting unusually high level spell consumables and spellcasting services.

Most people posting in this thread act as if the competition is set in Dark Sun with the characters barely having access to a village shop.

The baseline of the Core, however, is Greyhawk with explicitly stated availability of scrolls and spellcasting services for level 8 spells. That means a Cleric with the Magic domain can tap high level arcane and divine spells almost immediately, or that a gish can afford a PAO almost immediately.

[ericgrau]

Wizard has the "sell my spellbook, buy things"-option too. Which has...obvious downsides, but also upsides.

Sure:
1. Sell spell book.
2. Dog army.
3. Level up, get rich.
4. Buy better spell book.
Better than most things you can do at low level, and then after a bit of adventuring you can go back to wizarding.

But seriously how do you find a buyer for cantrips? Yeah that's the shop's job to find a buyer, that's why they pay half. But wouldn't they think twice before dropping that much gold? Who's going to buy it besides a wizard student? And scribing their own cantrips might be part of their education. Everyone else has them already. Also you have to pull pretty strict RAW to say you level up wizard without casting spells or even having access to them.

[RoboEmperor]

Sure:
1. Sell spell book.
2. Dog army.
3. Level up, get rich.
4. Buy better spell book.
Better than most things you can do at low level, and then after a bit of adventuring you can go back to wizarding.

But seriously how do you find a buyer for cantrips? Yeah that's the shop's job to find a buyer, that's why they pay half. But wouldn't they think twice before dropping that much gold? Who's going to buy it besides a wizard student? And scribing their own cantrips might be part of their education. Everyone else has them already. Also you have to pull pretty strict RAW to say you level up wizard without casting spells or even having access to them.

If your problem is just fluff you can make anything up to fit the crunch. You sold your spellbook because you found all the spells you learned in the academy worthless. You bought dogs to handle combat while you experiment with new spells and material components while adventuring and when you level up you finish the spells. Can be tattoo spellbook if you want.

I forgot spellbooks sell for a pretty penny because of the spells so if we're doing the animal thing wizards > druids at level 1. Level 2 Druids > Wizards because WBL equalizes the difference.

[Troacctid]

If hirelings are factored in, wizard has a good chance of overtaking the druid, as you can simply hire a small personal army to shore up your weakness at low levels, diluting the advantage the druid normally has due to its animal companion. If you assume a typical mission takes about a week to complete, that's 14 gp per outing to hire three mercenaries and a mercenary leader, with hazard pay. Easily affordable.

[Crichton]

I feel like this discussion has boiled down to something like 'how can we get a wizard to survive the first few levels on his own, because after that point wizard is the clear winner'

So the question is less 'what's the most powerful core class' and more 'how many methods for low level wizard survival can we find'

[RoboEmperor]

I feel like this discussion has boiled down to something like 'how can we get a wizard to survive the first few levels on his own, because after that point wizard is the clear winner'

So the question is less 'what's the most powerful core class' and more 'how many methods for low level wizard survival can we find'

I think Piggy had it down perfect in post #32. Nothing else to discuss. Druids early, Tied early mid, Wizard until 16, tied at 17.

Now if we factor in money minions like Hireling mercenaries (who by RAW lets you hire epic warriors) and mules as Troacctid suggested, it becomes Wizard at 1, Tied until 8, Wizard until 16, tied at 17.

I think it's only tied until 6 though cause arcane spells > druid spells by far even in core only.

[Eldariel]

I think it's only tied until 6 though cause arcane spells > druid spells by far even in core only.

I'd say rather especially in Core-only. Druid gets a lot of stuff like teleportation, broken minionmancy (Fey Circles), etc. out of Core while adding crazy amounts of combat power easily worth more than what Wizard adds (aside from Celerity, which is just silly). For a Wizard, most of the utterly busted stuff is Core while Druid gets a lot of strong stuff (crazy strong combat effects and some solid strategic power) but relatively fewer gamebreakers.

[Pippin]

LEVELS 17-20: Honestly in a core setting, once you hit access to shapechange you functionally have access to every spell and ability available in the PHB/DMG/MM, so I find it hard to really call the wizard better at these levels. Yeah, it also gets wish and gate... both of which are accessible via shapechange in core, so again, I consider it functionally moot.
First, your post was awesome and very thorough, well done. I think you've explained very well what the OP was about. But let me voice my concerns about the last part of it (17-20).

I agree that, if you give one billion dollars to a millionaire and one billion dollars to a homeless man, one is essentially as rich as the other after that. But here we are supposed to compare classes with all of their abilities. I do understand why Shapechange makes everybody equal in a way, but we need to stay focused on the classes, rather than the spell. There's just so many useful abilities the Wizard has access to and the Druid not:


Monster services: Planar Binding, Simulacrum, Charm/Dominate X, Geas/Quest, Gate
Travel: Teleport (and Teleportation Circle), Ethereal Jaunt (and Etherealness), Astral Projection
Information/Stealth/Scooting: (Greater) Arcane Sight, Discern Location, (Greater) Invisibility, Prying Eyes
Negation: Dispel Magic (and Mordenkainen’s Disjunction), Sequester, Mind Blank
Illusions: Ghost Sound, all of the Images
Special mentions: Wish, Minor/Major Creation, Moment of Prescience, Time Stop


And I'm sure I forgot several others. Shapechange might allow some of that with the Zodar, in which case we're not talking about the classes anymore, we're talking about the spell.

[Endarire]

The feat Spell Mastery is an option for Wizards who want to sell their spellbooks or who are concerned about losing access to these spells.

Also remember that a character's prepared spells stay prepared until used. Thus, it's possible to prepare spells, sell the book, hire some hireling Wizards, borrow their spellbooks (or otherwise keep the spellbooks while ridding yourself of the Wizards), and continue. This move is risky in terms of your reputation.

[StevenC21]

How does Shapechange give access to any other spells?

It's pretty clear that it only adds Su and Ex abilities. NOT Sp abilities.

So how are you getting Wish and Gate via Shapechange?

[ayvango]

How does Shapechange give access to any other spells?

It's pretty clear that it only adds Su and Ex abilities. NOT Sp abilities.

So how are you getting Wish and Gate via Shapechange?
If there is creature that has Wish as Su ability, you could Shapechange to it. Obvious fix is to rewrite said creature statistics and replace Su with Sp.

Also some PrC transforms spells to Su abilities. So you need to levelup such classes and add Body Outside Body in the mix.

[Eldariel]

How does Shapechange give access to any other spells?

It's pretty clear that it only adds Su and Ex abilities. NOT Sp abilities.

So how are you getting Wish and Gate via Shapechange?

Certain MMs refer to spellcasting itself as an ex ability. It's either that or a natural ability. Either way, you get both through Shapechange so you essentially get a Solar's 20th level Cleric spellcasting or such with it. Which is of course ridiculously broken and makes the spell even more stupid than it already is and I've seen it allowed basically never, but it's there. Even without that though, Shapechange can access a ridiculous number of spells by just shifting forms (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=3689.0).

[Anthrowhale]

Certain MMs refer to spellcasting itself as an ex ability. It's either that or a natural ability. Either way, you get both through Shapechange so you essentially get a Solar's 20th level Cleric spellcasting or such with it.

Minor side note: As far as I can tell, this is allowed by RAW, but Shapechange alone is not quite enough to unlock it. The spellcasting ability of a Cleric additionally requires spending an hour praying at a certain time of day and the spellcasting ability of a Sorcerer additionally requires 15 minutes of concentration after 8 hours of rest.

[Doug Lampert]

Certain MMs refer to spellcasting itself as an ex ability. It's either that or a natural ability. Either way, you get both through Shapechange so you essentially get a Solar's 20th level Cleric spellcasting or such with it. Which is of course ridiculously broken and makes the spell even more stupid than it already is and I've seen it allowed basically never, but it's there. Even without that though, Shapechange can access a ridiculous number of spells by just shifting forms (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=3689.0).

Note particularly the existence of a supernatural wish on that list. Shapechange is horribly broken, because the MM writers weren't consistent about how they labeled monster abilities.

[emeraldstreak]

Gotta remember most designers/tables know Shapechange only at minor fraction of what it is, famous case in point (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?111213-Why-isn-t-V-shapechanging)

[Gnaeus]

Note particularly the existence of a supernatural wish on that list. Shapechange is horribly broken, because the MM writers weren't consistent about how they labeled monster abilities.

In core, though, it’s a bit less horribly broken, assuming that as Eldariel says almost no one actually allows it to grant cleric 20 casting.

[RoboEmperor]

In core, though, it’s a bit less horribly broken, assuming that as Eldariel says almost no one actually allows it to grant cleric 20 casting.

I disagree that innate casting is natural or (Ex). Just because the stat block doesn't say what type of ability it is doesn't mean it's automatically natural. Darkvision for example is an (Ex) ability yet no monster stat block ever tells you it's an (Ex) ability.

If a solar polymorphs into a human, does he have his innate spellcasting? If the answer is yes then you don't gain it when you shapechange into him just like how the Solar retains his SLAs and you don't gain his SLAs.

Lilitu's spellcasting is explicity called Mock Divinity (Ex) so her spellcasting is an (Ex) ability but other creature's spellcasting is not. Unless someone has the RAW to prove otherwise.

The reason SLAs carry over and you don't gain SLAs is because SLAs is part of the creature's soul or mind, not their body. So is their innate casting part of their mind or body?

[Gnaeus]

I disagree that innate casting is natural or (Ex). Just because the stat block doesn't say what type of ability it is doesn't mean it's automatically natural. Darkvision for example is an (Ex) ability yet no monster stat block ever tells you it's an (Ex) ability.

If a solar polymorphs into a human, does he have his innate spellcasting? If the answer is yes then you don't gain it when you shapechange into him just like how the Solar retains his SLAs and you don't gain his SLAs.

Lilitu's spellcasting is explicity called Mock Divinity (Ex) so her spellcasting is an (Ex) ability but other creature's spellcasting is not. Unless someone has the RAW to prove otherwise.

The reason SLAs carry over and you don't gain SLAs is because SLAs is part of the creature's soul or mind, not their body. So is their innate casting part of their mind or body?

And I would agree with this too. And the RAI seems clear. And the better balanced ruling seems to agree. I can only think, (and again, this matches what Eldariel says) that only the strictest RAW game would rule otherwise and even then there is a counter argument.

Unless someone is really attempting to claim that we should imagine that every Druid 17 (and also every wizard 17, because why not?) is also a Cleric 20, lets just look at the broken we can see.

[RoboEmperor]

Unless someone is really attempting to claim that we should imagine that every Druid 17 (and also every wizard 17, because why not?) is also a Cleric 20, lets just look at the broken we can see.

This is largely moot though because Zodar Wishes can create scrolls of anything and everything of all classes both divine and arcane and it's trivial to UMD them. Even if it's cross class you just need to start with a ludicrously high CL wand of improvisation that lets you UMD the scrolls.

If we ban free wishes because of the whole candle of invocation or efreeti planar binding, then wizards > druids at 17. Because genesis and gate and stuff.

[Gnaeus]

This is largely moot though because Zodar Wishes can create scrolls of anything and everything of all classes both divine and arcane and it's trivial to UMD them. Even if it's cross class you just need to start with a ludicrously high CL wand of improvisation that lets you UMD the scrolls.

If we ban free wishes because of the whole candle of invocation or efreeti planar binding, then wizards > druids at 17. Because genesis and gate and stuff.

Where is the Zodar in your core books?

Or genesis or improvisation for that matter.

[eggynack]

I'd say rather especially in Core-only. Druid gets a lot of stuff like teleportation, broken minionmancy (Fey Circles), etc. out of Core while adding crazy amounts of combat power easily worth more than what Wizard adds (aside from Celerity, which is just silly). For a Wizard, most of the utterly busted stuff is Core while Druid gets a lot of strong stuff (crazy strong combat effects and some solid strategic power) but relatively fewer gamebreakers.
True enough. Beyond the obviously incredible stuff, like greenbound, aberration/dragon/exalted wild shape, venomfire, enhance wild shape, and so on, non-core just offers a lot of basic practical stuff. Like, just consider second and fourth level spells. In core, these are relatively lacking compared to the stuff you get at first, third, and fifth (say, entangle, sleet storm, and control winds respectively). Seconds have stuff like soften earth and stone, summon swarm, and fog cloud. Fourths have dispel magic a level after everyone else and SNA IV. Non-core seconds offer amazing spells like blinding spittle, kelpstrand, and mass snake's swiftness, and the fourths have the wonky stuff like animate with the spirit, enhance wild shape along with solid combat options like boreal wind and wall of salt.

[RoboEmperor]

Where is the Zodar in your core books?

Or genesis or improvisation for that matter.

I forgot about that. Zodar and Shapechange is so interlinked i often forget to separate them in a core-only discussion. Genesis is core.

So it's definitive. Wizard wins. With wealth, difference between Wizard and Druid is trivial for levels 1-6, sometimes wizard is stronger sometimes druid is, but at level 7-20 wizard wins hands down.

So now about an actual build instead of just class discussion, the strongest core only wizard build will be...
1. 18 Int (or 20, not sure if human is most optimal)
2. Eschew Materials
3. Spell Focus:Conjuration and Greater Spell Focus:Conjuration
4. Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration

Levels 1-6
Animal or Hireling Army or Both supported by BFC spells like Web, Glitterdust, Haste, Stinking Cloud, etc.

Levels 7-8
Animate Dead Army supported by BFC spells.

Levels 9-20
Ye old tippy Planar Binding by debuff spamming the outsider's charisma check to oblivion so that even if you roll a 1 and the outsider breaks free, it's helpless on the ground and you just Coup De Grace it and try again with another outsider. The best outsiders have will saves and SR in the stratosphere which is why I got those feats. Be sure to Dimensional Anchor the outsider in addition to Dimensional Anchoring the magic circle so if you do roll a 1 the outsider can't teleport away.

Also infinite wealth (Fabricate).

Levels 13-20
Eschew Materials + Simulacrum to create normal hd (not half hd) Simulacra of any creature in the game. (achieved by creating Simulacra of advanced creatures whose hd is double the base creatures so when halved, is normal). Basically the hd of the creature is equal to your caster level.

Levels 17-20
Gate I win. Genesis shenanigans.

I think General > Specialist since all the PB debuff spells are all over the schools. Evocation is contingency so banning that might also not be a good idea.

Now if someone could post their munchkin druid build we can compare.

[ericgrau]

If your problem is just fluff you can make anything up to fit the crunch. You sold your spellbook because you found all the spells you learned in the academy worthless. You bought dogs to handle combat while you experiment with new spells and material components while adventuring and when you level up you finish the spells. Can be tattoo spellbook if you want.

I forgot spellbooks sell for a pretty penny because of the spells so if we're doing the animal thing wizards > druids at level 1. Level 2 Druids > Wizards because WBL equalizes the difference.

I have no problem with a wizard finding a fluff excuse to sell his spellbook. I have problem with the shop buying it for half like any other item, since they can expect very little chance of ever finding a buyer. It's one thing if it sits for a year; that's typical and that's why they only pay half. I'm talking probably never. Nearly all other wizards already have it. If anything this is similar to a ladder made into 10 foot poles situation, at which point everyone has infinite wealth.

[RoboEmperor]

I have no problem with a wizard finding a fluff excuse to sell his spellbook. I have problem with the shop buying it for half like any other item, since they can expect very little chance of ever finding a buyer. It's one thing if it sits for a year; that's typical and that's why they only pay half. I'm talking probably never. Nearly all other wizards already have it. If anything this is similar to a ladder made into 10 foot poles situation, at which point everyone has infinite wealth.

How about a cleric with spell domain? How about a chameleon? How about wizards who lost their spellbook?

[mabriss lethe]

How about a cleric with spell domain? How about a chameleon? How about wizards who lost their spellbook?

Also,up and coming wizards have to find spells to fill up their own spellbooks somehow, and a second or third level wizard who is still filling out his list would definitely pay for access to even a level one wizard's book for spells he doesn't have yet.

[ericgrau]

@ ^, both above. While not totally impossible, finding a buyer willing to pay for the book including the cantrips seems difficult for the shopkeeper to do even in his entire lifetime. The cantrips are useless to most, and nearly useless to even those who have a small chance of using them. Buying level 1 scrolls is usually cheaper for almost all purposes. If I were the shopkeep I'd say "Ok, I'll buy your book but I'm only paying half for the level 1 spells. It's nearly impossible for me to ever make money on it otherwise. Take it or leave it."

New wizards might need a new spellbook, but it's unclear how they get it. Scribing the cantrips (if not the 1st level spells too) could be part of their training. IIRC the fluff for cantrips are that they are part of the basics of magic, which would connect them to learning magic. I would presume their cantrips and starting spells are in their own handwriting, though it's not clear. And if we go by strict RAW they don't have the money to buy it in that case either, they just start with a book somehow.

[Gnaeus]

Wait, you’re saying that you shouldn’t get what the books say you should get for a Spellbook because the economics are odd?

Why is the resell price of an item the exact same as the cost to make it, without labor or experience. That’s like saying a gallery owner should be able to buy a painting from a skilled artist for the cost of paint and canvas.

Why are items that non-casters use more common than caster items. I’d expect to see a lot more pearls of power and headbands of casting stat than a random distribution would give.

Why is full plate +1 close to the same cost as splint mail +1, when it is better than splint mail+3? Who buys the splint mail +2, a collector? Why would anyone have made the splint mail+2?

The fact that the cat girls have MBAs instead of physics degrees doesn’t excuse you killing them.