What would be a balanced Caster that casts of Constitution?

[GrayDeath]

This questionc ame up for a Setting I have beend esigning for a while. A friend decided to help and he got the "Dwarf/Orc" Analogue to work on, as he has more love for them.

His Idea is a type of Scarred Witch/Shaman that channels Magical Energy purely through his Body, and hence would cast of Constitution.
As that would make him immensely SAD, what would you see as a balanced Casting Method (and Spell level Limit, if any)?

Themewise we are thinking Druid List with some Evocation from the Wizard List (they ARE War Shamans after all).

For context: The World aims to have no clear T1 Casters, but there are lots of low to High T2 ones (some selfmade, added to the Oracle, a Spontaneous Druid and similar).


Thanks in advance!

[mabriss lethe]

First off: give them a tightly focused spell list. Pick a theme or two and select appropriate spells accordingly. You can unbreak a lot of casting problems just by controlling spell access. If you want to keep the bookkeeping simple, just copy and paste the mechanics and spell tables from dred necro or beguiler. That will give you some benchmarks for how many spells the class knows in each spell level, and how many castings per day.

[Zaq]

The DFA has unlimited blasting based off of CON, and it’s not broken at all. A breath weapon is very different from actual spells, of course, but there’s enough similarity to be relevant.

Maybe put a tight cap on the range of the character’s spells so that they need to get up close and personal with folks and maybe use some of their massive HP reserve?

[Dimers]

The Pathfinder kineticist, 4e warlock and 3.5 warlock* could all be considered Constitution-based casters that are not OP. All three gain variety slowly as they gain levels. If you design a class to have low variety and medium potency with at-will abilities, you should be fine.

Personally I'd avoid Vancian casting simply because I wouldn't want to go through 3.X's thousand-plus spells to make a spell list. But if I did, I'd give the class bard-progression casting with some flavorful and useful class abilities.

* Okay, very arguably, but unlike other "casters" they need Constitution every bit as much as their theoretical casting stat.

[Particle_Man]

One of the six subtypes of psion (Savant, that used psychokinesis) was a Con based "manifester" in 3.0. Whether it was balanced or not is an exercise for the reader.

[ericgrau]

This questionc ame up for a Setting I have beend esigning for a while. A friend decided to help and he got the "Dwarf/Orc" Analogue to work on, as he has more love for them.

His Idea is a type of Scarred Witch/Shaman that channels Magical Energy purely through his Body, and hence would cast of Constitution.
As that would make him immensely SAD, what would you see as a balanced Casting Method (and Spell level Limit, if any)?

Themewise we are thinking Druid List with some Evocation from the Wizard List (they ARE War Shamans after all).

For context: The World aims to have no clear T1 Casters, but there are lots of low to High T2 ones (some selfmade, added to the Oracle, a Spontaneous Druid and similar).


Thanks in advance!

A d1 hit die :tongue:. But seriously his spells will only be slightly more powerful from the SAD, if at all. Mainly he'll gain HP and a better fort save. A simple way might be -1 level for spell progression, maybe -2.

Or make spells require HP to cast (in addition to spells per day, not instead of), in a complicated and convoluted amount meant to balance out the extra HP. Bearing in mind that the spell heal exists. But heal has a casting time, and only mitigates not eliminates this drawback. But this way seems too hard to get right without a lot of work. -1 level of progression and call it a day is so much simpler. Magic will be useful regardless even if you do weaken it a little too much, so balance there need not be precise, and it's much harder for PCs to min-max a work-around.

But let's say you want to both restrict it and make it thematic. Hmm. Ok, high fort save, poor will save. His fort will be ridiculous, but it'll also be overkill and he'll have a lousy will save. Also let's say casting a spell deals nonlethal damage to himself equal to the spell level. Magical healing does not remove this damage like it normally does, nor does any magic, but 5 minutes of rest will (or 30 minutes, or whatever). That lets him cast roughly (2 * con mod - 2) high level spells before the situation starts to get dicey. Assuming he also took damage. He can cast about (2 * con mod + HD size) high level spells before he knocks himself out without taking any enemy damage. And best of all excessive spellcasting won't make him kill himself nor can he heal away the drawback. Likewise don't let this spellcasting class work with anyone immune to nonlethal or that doesn't have a con score, but I presume you were already going to do that anyway. Say the magic leaves a mark inside his body that won't fade away immediately, so treating his body isn't enough to deal with it.

[Rynjin]

Pathfinder had the Scarred Witch Doctor for years use the Witch spell list, with no discernible I'm balance. It only got changed because people in Pathfinder Society didn't like it.

[Rebel7284]

Runescarred Berserker has a spell list. Not much of a caster, but might offer some inspiration of spells you can use.

[MisterKaws]

Just give him Divine Crusader and let him cast off Con. Solves all your problems. Maybe double the levels and make the class a base class instead. Give Weapon Focus plus three or four feats evenly distributed on dead levels and it should be more than enough.

[GrayDeath]

Hmmm, very different suggestions so far.

Seems I`ll be building the class.

Now, before I get into the itty bitty pieces, does the following SPell List sound both not too bad nor too good, and fluffwise fitting a "Warlike SHaman Caster"?




Level 1 (15): Ironguts, Protection from (either Law or Chaos, see alignment), Shield, Obscuring Mist, True Strike, Kelgors Fire Bolt, Burning Rage, Nerveskitter, Endure Elements, Entangle, Magic Fang, Speakwith Animals, Bane, Deathwatch, Divine Favour, Remove Fear.


Level 2 (14): Protection from Arrows, baleful Transposition, Create Magic Tattoo, Ice Knife, Kelgors Grave Mist, Combust, Seeking Ray, Shatter, Alter Self, Bears Endurance, Earthbind, Barkskin, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration.

Level 3 (13): Blindness/Deafness, Magic Circle (Law or Chaos), Wind Wall, Call Lightning, Dominate Animal, Poison, Acid breath, Ice Lance, Greater Mage Armor, Stinking Cloud, Tiny Hut, Dragon Skin, Primal Form.

Level 4 (12): Dimensional Anchor, Mass Resist Energy, Radiant Fog, Damning Darkness, Shout, Vortex of Teeth, Flame Strike, Freedom of Movement, Dismissal, Lesser Planar Ally, Greater Magic Weapon, Restoration.

Level 5 (11): Righteous Might, Slay Living, true Seeing, Baleful Polimorpgh, Stoneskin, Indomitability, Lessr Planar Binding, Cone of Cold, Sonic Shield, Draconic Polimoroph, Enhanced Enlarge Person.

Level 6 (10): Superior Resistance, Acid Fog, Planar Binding, Thunder Field, Fire Seeds, Transport via Plant, Banishment, Forbiddance, Geas/Quest, Wind Walk

Level 7 (8): Destruction, Regenerate, Control Weather, Heal, Energy Immunity, Force Cage, Whirwind of Teeth,


Level 8 (6): Polar Ray, Flensing, iron Body, Animal Shapes, Finger of Death, Greater Spell Immunity


Level 9 (4): Energy Drain, Foresight, Shapechange, Storm of Vengeance.



If it does, and/or I have incorporated a few changes, I`ll go to actually building the class me thinks.

@ Mister Kaws: Well, if itw as a palyer wanting to play something like this, I would. But we are building a full setting anyways, and there are alwready half a dozen new classes, so ^^

[MisterKaws]

Hmmm, very different suggestions so far.

Seems I`ll be building the class.

Now, before I get into the itty bitty pieces, does the following SPell List sound both not too bad nor too good, and fluffwise fitting a "Warlike SHaman Caster"?




Level 1 (15): Ironguts, Protection from (either Law or Chaos, see alignment), Shield, Obscuring Mist, True Strike, Kelgors Fire Bolt, Burning Rage, Nerveskitter, Endure Elements, Entangle, Magic Fang, Speakwith Animals, Bane, Deathwatch, Divine Favour, Remove Fear.


Level 2 (14): Protection from Arrows, baleful Transposition, Create Magic Tattoo, Ice Knife, Kelgors Grave Mist, Combust, Seeking Ray, Shatter, Alter Self, Bears Endurance, Earthbind, Barkskin, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration.

Level 3 (13): Blindness/Deafness, Magic Circle (Law or Chaos), Wind Wall, Call Lightning, Dominate Animal, Poison, Acid breath, Ice Lance, Greater Mage Armor, Stinking Cloud, Tiny Hut, Dragon Skin, Primal Form.

Level 4 (12): Dimensional Anchor, Mass Resist Energy, Radiant Fog, Damning Darkness, Shout, Vortex of Teeth, Flame Strike, Freedom of Movement, Dismissal, Lesser Planar Ally, Greater Magic Weapon, Restoration.

Level 5 (11): Righteous Might, Slay Living, true Seeing, Baleful Polimorpgh, Stoneskin, Indomitability, Lessr Planar Binding, Cone of Cold, Sonic Shield, Draconic Polimoroph, Enhanced Enlarge Person.

Level 6 (10): Superior Resistance, Acid Fog, Planar Binding, Thunder Field, Fire Seeds, Transport via Plant, Banishment, Forbiddance, Geas/Quest, Wind Walk

Level 7 (8): Destruction, Regenerate, Control Weather, Heal, Energy Immunity, Force Cage, Whirwind of Teeth,


Level 8 (6): Polar Ray, Flensing, iron Body, Animal Shapes, Finger of Death, Greater Spell Immunity


Level 9 (4): Energy Drain, Foresight, Shapechange, Storm of Vengeance.



If it does, and/or I have incorporated a few changes, I`ll go to actually building the class me thinks.

@ Mister Kaws: Well, if itw as a palyer wanting to play something like this, I would. But we are building a full setting anyways, and there are alwready half a dozen new classes, so ^^

Well, if you're doing full homebrew, it's cool.

Now, I see an obvious problem, and it's that the class has too many spells known for what's obviously a gish. You should tighten it down to about as many as a Sorcerer and give only short range/personal spells, mostly buffing or direct brute-forcing. Definitely no calling spells. You don't need a tank summoning more tanks. And I think you should avoid save-or-lose spells like Dominate and Baleful Polymorph, since this character's save DCs are going to be stellar.

[GrayDeath]

its not going to be a Gish.

Its supposed to be a really tough Caster with Spells fitting the Theme (and some summoning fits the Shaman quite well).

Giving only as many Spells as a Sorcerer AND making it fixed List would produce too narrow a class fo what its meant to be. And I vastly prefer fixed lists when fluff is quite central to be honest. Easier to balance and make it fit thematically.

Probably going to do an Archetype that is a Gish though, higher BAB, some more Combat related abilities, fewer spells or somesuch.

[Doctor Awkward]

The DFA has unlimited blasting based off of CON, and it’s not broken at all. A breath weapon is very different from actual spells, of course, but there’s enough similarity to be relevant.

Maybe put a tight cap on the range of the character’s spells so that they need to get up close and personal with folks and maybe use some of their massive HP reserve?

The Slow Breath effect is one of the most overpowered abilities ever printed in any book.

[MisterKaws]

its not going to be a Gish.

Its supposed to be a really tough Caster with Spells fitting the Theme (and some summoning fits the Shaman quite well).

Giving only as many Spells as a Sorcerer AND making it fixed List would produce too narrow a class fo what its meant to be. And I vastly prefer fixed lists when fluff is quite central to be honest. Easier to balance and make it fit thematically.

Probably going to do an Archetype that is a Gish though, higher BAB, some more Combat related abilities, fewer spells or somesuch.

With that much HP, it's probably going to end as a mage who facetanks all while spamming touch spells. Basically a gish without a sword.

Also, I do know summoning fits a shaman class, but did you think about the amount of HP you're giving a single character? To threaten him, you'll need to have monsters with ludicrous amounts of damage. With this sort of monster, what do you think will happen if another squishier character(say, a Rogue or a Wizard) gets hit by it? Lemme tell ya: it's an express trip to -10.

You need to think about how you're going to challenge this character as a DM, and just using Will-save spells will eventually have him buy loads of mind-protection items, which will make only damage work nicely. Don't give him that many tools to soak damage.

[RNightstalker]

It's not casting, but Spellfire is based off of Constitution.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, I'll just reiterate that this spell list (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-list-witch) was fine for Con casting.

People way overestimate the value of a few extra HP on a full caster.

[noob]

The psion in 3.0 could cast out of con.

[Thugorp]

There was a home brew once upon a Time called the archane librarian, though I always think that a better name would be 'The Arcane Library.' The class had unlimited spontaniouse casting and the ability to learn spells the same way as does a wizard.

The catch was thus: to learn a new spell he had to tatoo it into his skin. Doing so would do one constetution damage/page that the spell would normally take up in a spell book.(the damage heals as it normally does 1/day).

Second catch casting spells hurts the arcane librarian 1hp./lvl. Of the spell being cast.(the class had d6hd. But I usually house rule it to d4s).

Final catch: The spells written on the archane librarian moved around at random so if a pease of his/her body was ever cut off you would have to roll randomly to decide which spells you lost.

As the class was originally written it used intelegence as the casting stat. This never made much sense to me. Just switch it to con. and the class works much better as a whole.

[noob]

There was a home brew once upon a Time called the archane librarian, though I always think that a better name would be 'The Arcane Library.' The class had unlimited spontaniouse casting and the ability to learn spells the same way as does a wizard.

The catch was thus: to learn a new spell he had to tatoo it into his skin. Doing so would do one constetution damage/page that the spell would normally take up in a spell book.(the damage heals as it normally does 1/day).

Second catch casting spells hurts the arcane librarian 1hp./lvl. Of the spell being cast.(the class had d6hd. But I usually house rule it to d4s).

Final catch: The spells written on the archane librarian moved around at random so if a pease of his/her body was ever cut off you would have to roll randomly to decide which spells you lost.

As the class was originally written it used intelegence as the casting stat. This never made much sense to me. Just switch it to con. and the class works much better as a whole.

So if you got polymorph you can essentially cast all day long thanks to the healing polymorph does?

[Blackhawk748]

Pathfinder had the Scarred Witch Doctor for years use the Witch spell list, with no discernible imbalance. It only got changed because people in Pathfinder Society didn't like it.

And as many of us know, that is no comment on its balance. Hell, they have issues with the Barbarian and Gunslinger because they are too good at their singular job.

Anyway, keep the spell list thematic and you should be fine. Look at the Witch and see what's neat on there.

[Rynjin]

And as many of us know, that is no comment on its balance. Hell, they have issues with the Barbarian and Gunslinger because they are too good at their singular job.

Hell, the Scarred Witch Doctor didn't even get nerfed; it was completely changed and is way more powerful now.

It went from "Casting stat is Con (but extra spells per day still key off Int)' to " Yo just have an extra +2 Int at first level".

New Scarred Witch Doctor is lowkey OP, because it otherwise only replaces a 1st level Hex (with Barkskin+, where Barkskin is already a good spell) and your Familiar (and I hate Familiars). No downside, +2 Int for any Half-orc Witch, basically.

[Starbuck_II]

My variant Truenamer isn't finished, but she use Con for casting.
Like the Kineticist, I incorporate burn. But you use Utterances not Kinetic Talents.

Truespeak affects the utterances effects for most so it is still skill using class, but not as required and no weird usage as before.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JknO6V1VDsHZApcAB4weMPI45cbROAJEU01GdC95JvA/edit#

[GrayDeath]

OK, enough feedback saying its not problematic per se, will finish the class soem thime this week and would love you all to give me feedback in the Homebrew forum then.

Or here, if it is regarding the above spell list and potential problems.

Thanks for the help!

[TheBrassDuke]

Technically, I feel a sorcerer should cast off constitution, for obvious reasons. We had a house rule for that once, and it worked pretty nicely.