How best to increase a monk's damage?

[samcifer]

I've been wanting to play a monk, but the fact that they don't do a lot of damage has held me back. During a previous campaign another player was playing an aarakocra open hand monk and he seemed to be doing much less damage than anyone else in the party (compared to my sorcadin, a sorcerer, a ranger/rogue and a fighter/rogue).

I've looked over options and other than increasing the damage of one attack out of 3 or 4 per turn for a monk, it seems that only by mc-ing into hexblade for the curse, Hex spell and Shadow Blade, there seems no easy way to up a monk's damage on every attack,

Does anyone now easier ways to up a monk's damage without using lots of bonus actions to get the damage up or rely on only boosting the damage of a single attack per turn?

[Man_Over_Game]

I've been wanting to play a monk, but the fact that they don't do a lot of damage has held me back. During a previous campaign another player was playing an aarakocra open hand monk and he seemed to be doing much less damage than anyone else in the party (compared to my sorcadin, a sorcerer, a ranger/rogue and a fighter/rogue).

I've looked over options and other than increasing the damage of one attack out of 3 or 4 per turn for a monk, it seems that only by mc-ing into hexblade for the curse, Hex spell and Shadow Blade, there seems no easy way to up a monk's damage on every attack,

Does anyone now easier ways to up a monk's damage without using lots of bonus actions to get the damage up or rely on only boosting the damage of a single attack per turn?

Increase Dexterity? It's the most boring solution, but where a ASI only increases someone's damage by +1-+2 points, the Monk gains +2-+5 points from a single Dexterity ASI. Not to mention that this increases accuracy (+1 to hit is worth about +2 damage), and also increases your AC.

Additionally, almost all of the classes you mentioned are either:


Glass cannons that lack defenses (Rogue)
Long Rest Resource characters (Paladin, Sorcerer, Ranger)


If the Monk isn't able to get 1-2 Short Rests in a day between fights, then he'll naturally be worse than most other Long Rest classes, especially a Sorcadin. A Sorcadin is probably the best possible build, ever, for a table that only runs 1-2 fights in a day, because of how efficiently and fast he can burn through his daily allotment of resources.

However, assuming a party's supposed to get 1-2 Short Rests, a Monk cannot spend 2x-3x his Ki pool in a single fight. Hell, at high levels, he can barely do x1 in a single fight.

A Monk isn't supposed to deal more burst damage than mages and paladins. He's supposed to be more consistent. The problem comes in when the mages and paladins are allowed to be consistent (usually by having fewer fights in a day), which is generally a fault of the DM's.

[samcifer]

Increase Dexterity? It's the most boring solution, but where a ASI only increases someone's damage by +1-+2 points, the Monk gains +2-+5 points from a single Dexterity ASI.

Additionally, almost all of the classes you mentioned are either:


Glass cannons that lack defenses (Rogue)
Long Rest Resource characters (Paladin, Sorcerer, Ranger)


If the Monk isn't able to get 1-2 Short Rests in a day between fights, then he'll naturally be worse than most other Short Rest classes, especially a Sorcadin. A Sorcadin is probably the best possible build, ever, for a table that only runs 1-2 fights in a day.

Well I mean damage per hit. With my above combo, a monk will do 2(+)d8 + DEX + Prof. bonus + 1d6 damage on the first 2 attacks, then do 1d6 (at lv. 5 monk) + DEX + Prof bonus + 1d6 dmg. per bonus action attack (either 1 or 2 hits this way, for a max of 4d8 + 20 (max DEX on 4 hits) + 12 prof. bonus (at Lv. 8, that's 3 x 4) + 4d6 damage per turn.

It's really good for a monk, but takes 3 bonus actions to set up if you don't get any pre-fight prep time, and most fights are over in 3 or 4 rounds in my group, making that impractical to try to use.

[Bloodcloud]

Monk is less about damage past level 5 and more about stunning strike (which sets up damage for other real nicely). He's more of a single target controller than a striker in 4e terms. Reach backline and tear trough squishy glass cannons, negate archers, stun minoboss, burn legendary resistances quick, that sort of deal.

[tieren]

I'd say you want to get divine favor for an extra 1d4 on every hit, couple paladin levels or magic initiate feat.

[samcifer]

I'd say you want to get divine favor for an extra 1d4 on every hit, couple paladin levels or magic initiate feat.

Hex does more damage, wouldn't require a feat if I went 2 levels of Warlock and uses concentration, so someone else would need to cast Bless on me.

[stoutstien]

I've been wanting to play a monk, but the fact that they don't do a lot of damage has held me back. During a previous campaign another player was playing an aarakocra open hand monk and he seemed to be doing much less damage than anyone else in the party (compared to my sorcadin, a sorcerer, a ranger/rogue and a fighter/rogue).

I've looked over options and other than increasing the damage of one attack out of 3 or 4 per turn for a monk, it seems that only by mc-ing into hexblade for the curse, Hex spell and Shadow Blade, there seems no easy way to up a monk's damage on every attack,

Does anyone now easier ways to up a monk's damage without using lots of bonus actions to get the damage up or rely on only boosting the damage of a single attack per turn?

Monks have always had mediocre damage but with lots of attacks they tend to do decent average damage.

Monks are unique because their role actually changes as they level up from damage> CC> damage/cc> tank in late game.

Surprisingly the most offensive monks are 4-ele but burns ki wicked fast. I play one in a party with lots of short rests

[Man_Over_Game]

Monks have always had mediocre damage but with lots of attacks they tend to do decent average damage.

Monks are unique because their role actually changes as they level up from damage> CC> damage/cc> tank in late game.

Surprisingly the most offensive monks are 4-ele but burns ki wicked fast. I play one in a party with lots of short rests

That actually sounds like a lot of fun. Like how I'd imagine a Warlock in a well-oiled team.

[JNAProductions]

Why does damage per attack matter?

What's the difference between doing 18 damage in one hit (Rogue 5) or 22.5 across three (Monk 5)?

[Grek]

Open Palm is more support/control than direct damage. You make three to four attacks per round, and all the ones that hit force a save vs push/prone and can (for one ki more) also force a save vs stun. There's absolutely nothing stopping you from trying to Stunning Fist the same enemy four times in a turn, if you want to make absolutely sure that person isn't getting more actions. Stunned and prone both give advantage to attackers, including your allies attacks. Pairs especially well with rogues, but even with a fighter that's +15% to their damage, roughly.

[Karnitis]

I had this image saved for a months, waiting for a campaign to use it as a joke (nsfw text, image is fine):
https://images.app.goo.gl/txsm37rF95ZdcEku9
(its a pair of brass knuckles, basically)

I was thinking of giving it to the monk as either a +1d4 to unarmed attacks, or as a flat +2 (to atk and dmg).

To the OP's question and my own as a DM who has a monk in the party and I want them to do more dmg:

Would this be a good item to give (my team is level 8)?

[Man_Over_Game]

I had this image saved for a months, waiting for a campaign to use it as a joke (nsfw text, image is fine):
https://images.app.goo.gl/txsm37rF95ZdcEku9
(its a pair of brass knuckles, basically)

I was thinking of giving it to the monk as either a +1d4 to unarmed attacks, or as a flat +2 (to atk and dmg).

To the OP's question and my own as a DM who has a monk in the party and I want them to do more dmg:

Would this be a good item to give (my team is level 8)?

I don't think so. I say Monks are fine, as long as Warlocks are fine. If those classes don't do well for one reason or another at a table, then it's likely because of a trend of the table, not because the classes are inherently bad.

If there is a mismatch, then I think there are better solutions. +2 to damage and attack is like offering a +2 Longsword to a Samurai. It's definitely not the default for scaling, and it'll set the precedent that every problem can be solved by dealing more damage or getting better magical equipment.

The problem with Monks/Warlocks usually is due to not being able to fit enough Short Rests at the table. If that's the case, then just multiplying the number of Short Rest resources by the expected number of Rests a table is supposed to get in a busy day (x3 or so) has been a popular fix. Since a Monk can really only spend about 3 Ki Points per round without Stunning Strike, it's very unlikely that they'll be able to even use the shear number of Ki Points. It effectively transforms the Monk into something akin to a Sorcerer.


TLDR: If Monks suck, either fit in more Short Rests (should be about 2-3 per day), or triple their Ki points.

[LudicSavant]

I've been wanting to play a monk, but the fact that they don't do a lot of damage has held me back. During a previous campaign another player was playing an aarakocra open hand monk and he seemed to be doing much less damage than anyone else in the party (compared to my sorcadin, a sorcerer, a ranger/rogue and a fighter/rogue).

I've looked over options and other than increasing the damage of one attack out of 3 or 4 per turn for a monk, it seems that only by mc-ing into hexblade for the curse, Hex spell and Shadow Blade, there seems no easy way to up a monk's damage on every attack,

Does anyone now easier ways to up a monk's damage without using lots of bonus actions to get the damage up or rely on only boosting the damage of a single attack per turn?

Before we even start looking at multiclassing and temporary buffs and the like, here's just how much our Open Hand Monk's flurry of blows damage can vary from poor to a somewhat more optimal strategy, and this is before counting the improvements in indirect/teamwork damage I'll mention.

https://anydice.com/program/15eeb


Monk 6 that didn't boost Dex at 4 16.30

Monk 6 that didn't boost Dex at 4 Advantage 23.21

Monk 6 20.20

Monk 6 Advantage 27.69

Monk 6 Versatile 21.60

Monk 6 Versatile Advantage 29.64

Monk 6 Versatile Elven Accuracy 32.91

Raging Reckless GWM Bear-barian 6 26.7

Some quick tips just for improving your output as a standard Open Hand Monk 1-20:


Wield a "versatile" Monk weapon in two hands to get a 1d8 damage die for your first two attacks (this is a damage boost from levels 1-10). This does not interfere with your punching. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47259/does-using-versatile-weapons-with-2-hands-disqualify-them-as-monk-weapons)
Focus on getting Advantage. This will not only make you hit more often, but also nearly double your crit rate (or triple with EA).
Elven Accuracy is a good investment for Monks, due to the ease and frequency with which they can get Advantage, and the fact that it doesn't slow down your Dex/Wis progression. People are often unaware of just how much accuracy and crit rate contribute to DPR.
Prioritze your ki on Stunning Strike. Stunning Strike is a damage ability, too. This not only will boost your own direct DPR via granting yourself Advantage (both on this round and your next one, since stuns end at the end of your next turn), but also your indirect DPR (which is a big part of the Monk's contribution), since it'll cause your entire party to deal more damage via Advantage and auto-fail Str/Dex saves. The indirect contribution is a big deal. I cannot emphasize this enough. Think about how much more often the Fighter taking -5/+10 hits with Advantage, or how the blaster caster can benefit from people auto-failing saves.
Take advantage of enemies auto-failing Str/Dex saves in order to punch them through hazards like Create Bonfire, Spike Growth, Spirit Guardians, or oil fires. Remember that many of these abilities can hit both when a foe enters, and when they start (or end, depending on the hazard) their turn there. This can rack up very quickly if you're setting it up right. Doing this is like, half the point of the Open Hand subclass.
Make sure you're getting access to short rests.


As for multiclassing the options are pretty much what you'd expect (things like Hex, Hexblade's Curse, Divine Favor, Fighter dip, etc). But be careful with multiclassing; your ASI progression, ki pool, and action economy are important. Stunning Strike in particular is cash money and how many times you can do it really matters.

You can also look into things like buffs from allies and potions. An Uncommon "Potion of Growth" for instance will give you +1d4 damage per hit for 1d4 hours; not bad for someone who hits as often as you should be.


Monks are unique because their role actually changes as they level up

That's a good way of putting it.

[samcifer]

Admittedly if I went Open Hand, I could try to trip people for advantage and if I went Elf, I could take Elven Accuracy and add a point of Wisdom to a wood elf. I've had an idea for an elf monk with an afro who was partially the Shogun of Harlem from The move The Last Dragon. There'd also be a bit of World of Warcraft inspiration based on an infamous recorded session with a character named Leroy. I'd just charge into a room full of enemies screaming his name:

"ELFROOOOYYYY JENKINS!"

And after the TPK, everyone would be muttering "Dammit Elfroy".

(No, I wouldn't really do that, but that's how my twisted sense of humor works)

For reference to those who aren't familiar with the reference, here's the clip of it. Things hit the fan at 1 min, 20 sec.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLyOj_QD4a4

Update: Turns out it was all cleverly staged by the group to become a viral video to drum up interest in their in-game guild to find new members. Fairly convincing acting, though.

[nickl_2000]

Simplest way?

2 Levels of Ranger.
Hunter's Mark for +1d6 to each hit against the marked creature
+2 damage for one handed weapon attacks from dueling fighting style (and DM may even be friendly and houserule that it works with unarmed strikes).

Bonus if you are allowed Revised Ranger for advantage on init rolls and advantage against anyone who hasn't attacked yet. That plays incredibly well with the monk's mobility.

[samcifer]

Simplest way?

2 Levels of Ranger.
Hunter's Mark for +1d6 to each hit against the marked creature
+2 damage for one handed weapon attacks from dueling fighting style (and DM may even be friendly and houserule that it works with unarmed strikes).

Bonus if you are allowed Revised Ranger for advantage on init rolls and advantage against anyone who hasn't attacked yet. That plays incredibly well with the monk's mobility.

That actually isn't a bad idea. I've considered a monk/ranger mc character. Those are 2 of the 3 classes (bard being the third) that I haven't played yet.

[LudicSavant]

The thing about a 2 level dip is that you lose 6 ki points / standard adventuring day, delay your ASIs and Monk features (which are good), and Hunter's Mark competes for your bonus action (and is only 2/day). So stuff like this ends up happening:

Anydice: Elf Monk 8 vs Elf Monk 6 / Ranger 2 over 2 rounds (No Advantage) (https://anydice.com/program/15ef9)

Anydice: Elf Monk 8 vs Elf Monk 6 / Ranger 2 over 2 rounds (Advantage) (https://anydice.com/program/15ef7)

Eventually you'll start doing a little more damage, but only if you keep hitting the same single target for round after round (if you wanna switch to someone else, the same pattern starts over).

However, things become a lot more favorable if you are able to pre-cast it without enemies noticing, so that your bonus action is used before the fight starts. In which case it looks like this: https://anydice.com/program/15ef6

In this respect Hunter's Mark may be more beneficial than Hex; Hex has an immediate debilitating effect (disadvantage on ability checks) and thus I think it's more likely that a DM would rule that a foe notices that they're Hexed.

[Man_Over_Game]

The thing about a 2 level dip is that you lose 6 ki points / standard adventuring day, delay your ASIs and Monk features (which are good), and Hunter's Mark competes for your bonus action (and is only 2/day). So stuff like this ends up happening:

Anydice: Elf Monk 8 vs Elf Monk 6 / Ranger 2 over 2 rounds (No Advantage) (https://anydice.com/program/15ef9)

Anydice: Elf Monk 8 vs Elf Monk 6 / Ranger 2 over 2 rounds (Advantage) (https://anydice.com/program/15ef7)

Eventually you'll start doing a little more damage, but only if you keep hitting the same single target for round after round (if you wanna switch to someone else, the same pattern starts over).

However, things become a lot more favorable if you are able to pre-cast it without enemies noticing, so that your bonus action is used before the fight starts. In which case it looks like this: https://anydice.com/program/15ef6

In this respect Hunter's Mark may be more beneficial than Hex; Hex has an immediate debilitating effect (disadvantage on ability checks) and thus I think it's more likely that a DM would rule that a foe notices that they're Hexed.

Well said. To tack on to that, Hex will require a 13 into Charisma, which might be difficult when you're a class that requires Dexterity, Wisdom, while being in melee combat (Constitution). Hunter's Mark will not require any different stats.

[GlenSmash!]

I've found the best way to do more damage is to stun the crap out of everything I can. It not only increased my own damage, but the rest of the parties as well by increasing the effectiveness of our attacks and features/spells that target dex saving throws.

[Desteplo]

Well... the unpopular choice to increase damage and the only burst monk is:

the way of 4 elements monk. (Fire fangs adds d10s)

While heavily short rest dependent at first. Is still good and fun.

[samcifer]

Well... the unpopular choice to increase damage and the only burst monk is:

the way of 4 elements monk. (Fire fangs adds d10s)

While heavily short rest dependent at first. Is still good and fun.

Way too expensive to use if you have to spend 2 ki just to get the 1d10 on a single attack.

[Man_Over_Game]

Way too expensive to use if you have to spend 2 ki just to get the 1d10 on a single attack.

Correction on that: It's 1 Ki Point to activate Fire Fangs for Reach, then +1 Ki Point for every attack that you want to deal an extra 1d10 damage with.

So Flurry of Blows, Fire Fangs activation, 1 Ki per attack, that's 6 Ki points for:

(1d6 + Mod + 1d10)x4 with Reach.

With a Mod of +3, that's 48 damage.

Action Surge Fighter with Polearm Master, at level 6, would deal (8.5x2)x2 + (1d4+3) damage, or 39.5 damage. So I think the Monk is pretty fine.

[Floogal]

Don't forget that you can also make each strike a Stunning attempt. Potentially burning 10 ki points in a single round. 12 if hasted.

[LudicSavant]

Correction on that: It's 1 Ki Point to activate Fire Fangs for Reach, then +1 Ki Point for every attack that you want to deal an extra 1d10 damage with.

So Flurry of Blows, Fire Fangs activation, 1 Ki per attack, that's 6 Ki points for:

(1d6 + Mod + 1d10)x4 with Reach.

With a Mod of +3, that's 48 damage.

Action Surge Fighter with Polearm Master, at level 6, would deal (8.5x2)x2 + (1d4+3) damage, or 39.5 damage. So I think the Monk is pretty fine.

Fighters can do a good deal better than that. They should have 2 ASIs by that point, plus a fighting style, plus a subclass.

A basic point buy VHuman Fighter using Action Surge with PAM should have (1d6+7)*4+(1d4+7) before counting subclass (51.5 before counting hit chance, crit chance, etc). If that's, say, Battle Master, then it'd add another 4d8, or access to Precision Strike if any of those shots miss. I'd say that's an entirely fair comparison, since the Monk is blowing all of their short rest resources in one round, too.

The end result against an AC 15 target would be thus: https://anydice.com/program/15f09


4e Monk blowing literally all their ki in one round (they can't stun someone, they don't have ki for it) 35.60

Elf Sharpshooter Fighting Spirit Samurai Action Surge 67.32

VHuman one-handed PAM Dueling Battle Master Action Surge using all their Superiority Dice in one round 58.25

The sad thing is that the 4e Monk likely would've been better off stunning someone than going all in with Fangs. Though if someone's already down (so that they have Advantage) they'd at least be able to push it to 49 (normal advantage) or 55 (triple).

[Man_Over_Game]

I was using numbers based on using a reach weapon, since it's hard to gauge the value of reach on the Unarmed Strikes, so I assumed reach on both.

Defense Fighting Style seemed pretty standard to me.

[LudicSavant]

I was using numbers based on using a reach weapon, since it's hard to gauge the value of reach on the Unarmed Strikes, so I assumed reach on both.

Defense Fighting Style seemed pretty standard to me.

Your version appears to be 16 Strength + PAM and nothing else.

Just saying, a reach build with Defense at level 6 could just as easily have been something like VHuman 18 Str / PAM / GWM / Battle Master. Or a Half-Orc 18 Str / Orcish Fury / PAM / Battle Master. Or whatever.

[CTurbo]

I've played a few 5e Monks and I do NOT find them lacking in damage at all. In fact I think think they're one of the most consistent classes in DPR. I think the key is getting Dex maxed ASAP. Getting to add +5 to 3 or 4 attacks helps a lot.

I'm honestly not sure why the Monk has such a bad reputation for damage. Like I said I never had an issue. They're not supposed to be at the top end of DPR, but that doesn't make them bad. I think the "problem" is there is no real easy way to increase the Monk's DPR if you specifically want to build a higher than normal DPR Monk. There is no feat support for them that helps increase DPR. Magic weapons help as with any multi attack class. Multiclassing works, but can be tedious and push back your Monk features a lot.

Talk to your DM about what kind of magic weapons he would allow if you were to play a Monk. +1/+2 daggers and staffs are easy to come by, but it's not easy to increase unarmed damage. Bracers of Mighty Striking are not official in 5e, but I don't see any reason why they couldn't be used. They add +2 damage to any unarmed strike btw. I'm playing a Monk and my DM has already said I could use(buy) some brass knuckles that add +1 damage to punches used with them. That doesn't sound like much, but it will add up. My Dex is already 20 so I'd be punching for 1d6+6 each time. That's pretty reasonable considering it's a low magic campaign.

If you're willing to multiclass, I think 3 levels of Ranger is great for a Monk. Especially if you can use the Revised Ranger as mentioned above. Choose humanoids as favored enemy and that adds +2 damage to every hit all the time. Hunter's Mark is great on a Monk. Hunter's Colossal Slayer or Horde Breaker is great as is 3 levels of Gloom Stalker.

[Makorel]

In theory, Protection Aasimar can get you some extra damage with their Radiant Soul ability (radiant damage, once per turn, lasts one minute, equals your level). It's once a day but I think the key is to use it when your Stunning Strike wouldn't be as useful, i.e. in crowds, against foes you can't get to and ones that are immune to being stunned. Radiant Soul also gives you a fly speed so you've got 2 of those 3 edge cases covered.

[Azgeroth]

agreeing with the majority, pump dex, get +x weapons.. in Hoard of the dragon queen there is a 'mark of the wild' an amulet that adds +1/+1 to unarmed strikes and makes the strikes magical.

outside of that, without gimping your ki(stunning strikes) by multi-classing, your rather screwed.

but then i don't see monks as the big alpha striker (assassin rogue) and much very much a super mobile harasser, with respectable damage.

though i personally prefer to bump up wis before dex, for the stunning strike dc, as you will get more net damage if they fail the save more consistently, you can attack all day, but your stunning strikes are limited so you want those to stick.

[AdAstra]

If you really want to prioritize damage, a rogue multiclass is always serviceable, though probably better at somewhat higher levels. The problem obviously is that you lose out on ki points, you'll have to switch to daggers (or shortswords, but at your level daggers are objectively superior), you probably won't see a huge benefit from the first two levels, and unless you go swashbuckler or arcane trickster (so long as your DM doesn't target your familiar too often) you're mostly dependent on other PCs for sneak attack.

On the plus side, your at-will damage is gonna increase a lot faster than if you stay in monk, two attacks should apply it reliably (and TWFing knives, using kicks or other non-punch unarmed strikes as necessary, could give you a third chance at the cost of your DEX bonus to damage, sometimes a worthwhile tradeoff), it works well with elven accuracy (rogue crits are nuts), swashbuckler offers an (probably small) initiative bonus and arcane trickster some nice spells. Cunning action can give you some valuable mobility for less cost than spending a ki point, expertise in stealth will be good for getting the drop on enemies if your party and DM permit, and you'll be far more serviceable at range.

[noob]

Step 1: multiclass brute fighter
Step 2: take only brute fighter levels for the rest of your life.