Polymorph / Mass Polymorph, saving throws and long term effects

[MarkVIIIMarc]

This almost ended up in RAW but I thought the second part would cause trouble.

A - If a player is Polymorphed into a T-Rex I assume the player makes Intelligence Saving Throws based on the T-Rex's stats?

B - If an unfortunate player is Polymorphed into a T-Rex and fails a Saving Throw for something like Feeblemind am I correct that the 1 INT and 1 CHA carry over to the target's normal form when the Polymorph is cancelled or wears off?

[Nhym]

B - If an unfortunate player is Polymorphed into a T-Rex and fails a Saving Throw for something like Feeblemind am I correct that the 1 INT and 1 CHA carry over to the target's normal form when the Polymorph is cancelled or wears off?

Considering Feeblemind says "On a failed save, the creature's Intelligence and Charisma scores become 1", and Polymorph doesn't specifically change one creature into another, it "transforms a creature that you can see within range into a new form", that it would be logical that the feeblemind effect would carry over into any form that singular creature takes.

[Man_Over_Game]

You know what's crazy with that ruling? You could then cast Polymorph again, and then they'd use the stats of their new form. So they'd go from being a T-Rex, to a FM'd T-Rex, to a FM'd person, to a normal T-Rex again.

Personally, though, I'm not sure how I'd rule it.

There are 3 possibilities I see:

Feeblemind sticks through Polymorph, causing either form to have low stats. Feeblemind does not change just because you do.
Feeblemind sticks with the current form, changing your stats each time you Polymorph. It changes your current form, and that might be a temporary form.
Feeblemind overwrites Polymorph if it was the last spell cast. If you cast Polymorph AFTER Feeblemind, you'd have the Polymorph stats instead. Thus Polymorph-Feeblemind-Polymorph would have your humanoid self be FM'd but your Polymorph self be intelligent (well, kinda).


And they all seem pretty reasonable.

[MaxWilson]

You know what's crazy with that ruling? You could then cast Polymorph again, and then they'd use the stats of their new form. So they'd go from being a T-Rex, to a FM'd T-Rex, to a FM'd person, to a normal T-Rex again.

And then you could cast Awaken on that T-Rex!

[Man_Over_Game]

And then you could cast Awaken on that T-Rex!

This is getting weird.

So what would happen to Awaken after Polymorph ends? Are you now an "Awakened" humanoid, just immune to the effect since you're not eligible? Does Awaken end, since its target is no longer valid?

Personally, I like the first concept. This would mean that every time you are Polymorphed, you are transformed into a sentient creature.

[MaxWilson]

This is getting weird.

So what would happen to Awaken after Polymorph ends? Are you now an "Awakened" humanoid, just immune to the effect since you're not eligible? Does Awaken end, since its target is no longer valid?

Personally, I like the first concept. This would mean that every time you are Polymorphed, you are transformed into a sentient creature.

And if your original Int was only 6, then we now have a PC who Polymorphs himself into a cat every time he needs to do some heavy-duty thinking. :-P

[JackPhoenix]

And if your original Int was only 6, then we now have a PC who Polymorphs himself into a cat every time he needs to do some heavy-duty thinking. :-P

Except you'd have to find someone else to cast Polymorph, Feeblemind prevents spellcasting.

Could be worse... Int 1 orc wizard who turns himself into Int 6 non-sapient Giant Ape....

[Mad_Saulot]

I'd say the higher level spell over-rides the lower level spell, depending which version of polymorph is used, so I'd say it carried through polymorph but not true polymorph.

[MaxWilson]

Except you'd have to find someone else to cast Polymorph, Feeblemind prevents spellcasting.

Yeah, I was handwaving Feeblemind because the discussion had kind of moved on since then. Besides, if you've got a buddy capable of casting Awaken, you've got a buddy capable of casting Greater Restoration.

[Man_Over_Game]

Personally, I like the first concept. This would mean that every time you are Polymorphed, you are transformed into a sentient creature.

Interesting, this was kinda confirmed:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/931621590730653696

"There's no rule governing what happens when a valid spell target temporarily becomes an invalid target. A good rule of thumb is that the spell is suppressed while the target is invalid."

Not official, but it's how the lead designer would rule it. You were technically eligible to have Awaken be cast on you, and the spell effect is suppressed while you're humanoid. Play the rest of the game as a "woke" wizard, who's constantly smug about how his Polymorphisms are so much more superior than yours.

[MaxWilson]

Interesting, this was kinda confirmed:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/931621590730653696

"There's no rule governing what happens when a valid spell target temporarily becomes an invalid target. A good rule of thumb is that the spell is suppressed while the target is invalid."

Not official, but it's how the lead designer would rule it. You were technically eligible to have Awaken be cast on you, and the spell effect is suppressed while you're humanoid. Play the rest of the game as a "woke" wizard, who's constantly smug about how his Polymorphisms are so much more superior than yours.

There are issues with that ruling, but then there are issues with the other ruling too. Personally I go with the other way (if you Polymorph a humanoid paralyzed by Hold Person into a dinosaur, they're still a paralyzed dinosaur) and just live with the issues, because they're mostly theoretical anyway (Magic Jarring the Tarrasque via True Polymorph).