Tiny Dogs?

[MisterKaws]

I noticed there's a distinct lack of support for poodle-sized dogs in 3.5. So how would one go to stat a Tiny-sized dog? Should I just change it to 1/2 HD and apply size changes?

[Thurbane]

I think there may have been an article in Dragon with stats for several dogs, including smaller than small - can't recall if it was 3E or an earlier edition though.

[Kaleph]

Would you consider the dungeonbred template from dungeonscape? It reduces the size of the base creature. Unfortunately I haven't the manual at hand at the moment, so I cannot check if a small dog would be a valid base creature for the template...

[Ramza00]

Dungeonbred is meant for creatures already large or bigger to become medium or 1 size smaller than there bigger.

[SirNibbles]

I noticed there's a distinct lack of support for poodle-sized dogs in 3.5. So how would one go to stat a Tiny-sized dog? Should I just change it to 1/2 HD and apply size changes?

Poodles are not tiny.

Toy Poodles are about 10 inches tall (about 2 feet from nose to tail) and weigh 6-9 lbs. Even this tiny version is right at the edge of Tiny/Small.
Miniature Poodles are about 11-15 inches tall and weigh 15-17 lbs.
Normal Poodles weigh upwards of 45 lbs (45-70 for males and 45-65 for females), at the upper limit of the D&D Dog (20-50 lbs).

But yeah for fake dogs like Chihuahuas 1/2 HD and size change makes the most sense.

[MisterKaws]

Poodles are not tiny.

Toy Poodles are about 10 inches tall (about 2 feet from nose to tail) and weigh 6-9 lbs. Even this tiny version is right at the edge of Tiny/Small.
Miniature Poodles are about 11-15 inches tall and weigh 15-17 lbs.
Normal Poodles weigh upwards of 45 lbs (45-70 for males and 45-65 for females), at the upper limit of the D&D Dog (20-50 lbs).

But yeah for fake dogs like Chihuahuas 1/2 HD and size change makes the most sense.

Well, cats are tiny, and most cats I know are about the size of a poodle.

And if you go by the Halfling/Gnome size, a Small dog would be around the size of a Retriever, which is almost twice the average poodle.

[SirNibbles]

Well, cats are tiny, and most cats I know are about the size of a poodle.

Cats are right on the edge of tiny/small in terms of real life dimensions/weight. Toy Poodles and Poodles are different. Kind of like Lesser Orb of Acid vs Orb of Acid.


And if you go by the Halfling/Gnome size, a Small dog would be around the size of a Retriever, which is almost twice the average poodle.

What? I have literally no idea what you're trying to say.

Halflings are 30-35 lbs, gnomes are 40-45. Retrievers are 55-80 (heavier than the D&D dog range), just a bit bigger than Poodles.

___

Either way it doesn't matter much. You could also try refluffing a cat. Just remove the claw attacks, pretty much all the skill bonuses, and reduce the speed to 20 feet (small breeds are generally pretty slow due to having short stubby legs that don't really work well).

[ChaosStar]

Cats are right on the edge of tiny/small in terms of real life dimensions/weight. Toy Poodles and Poodles are different. Kind of like Lesser Orb of Acid vs Orb of Acid.



What? I have literally no idea what you're trying to say.

Halflings are 30-35 lbs, gnomes are 40-45. Retrievers are 55-80 (heavier than the D&D dog range), just a bit bigger than Poodles.

___

Either way it doesn't matter much. You could also try refluffing a cat. Just remove the claw attacks, pretty much all the skill bonuses, and reduce the speed to 20 feet (small breeds are generally pretty slow due to having short stubby legs that don't really work well).
Poodles are Hunting Dogs, and darn good ones at that. Very Intelligent for Dog standards as well.

[Jack_Simth]

Poodles are Hunting Dogs, and darn good ones at that. Very Intelligent for Dog standards as well.
Specifically they were bred as water retrievers, which is also why the traditional poodle cut.

[MisterKaws]

What? I have literally no idea what you're trying to say.

Halflings are 30-35 lbs, gnomes are 40-45. Retrievers are 55-80 (heavier than the D&D dog range), just a bit bigger than Poodles.

I was talking about volume, not weight. They're pretty lanky compared to a hunting dog.


Poodles are Hunting Dogs, and darn good ones at that. Very Intelligent for Dog standards as well.

Huh. Today I learned.

Let's consider a toy poodle or a pomeranian then.

[Grek]

Why not use cat stats?

[SirNibbles]

Why not use cat stats?
...

You could also try refluffing a cat. Just remove the claw attacks, pretty much all the skill bonuses, and reduce the speed to 20 feet (small breeds are generally pretty slow due to having short stubby legs that don't really work well).

Show me a purse dog that has a 6 foot vertical, can run fast, and has good coordination.

[mabriss lethe]

...


Show me a purse dog that has a 6 foot vertical, can run fast, and has good coordination.

Does a Jack Russell count?

[HouseRules]

Take a small dog and do the reverse of a giant template.
Take a medium dog and do the reverse of 2 giant templates.

[Ashtagon]

I noticed there's a distinct lack of support for poodle-sized dogs in 3.5. So how would one go to stat a Tiny-sized dog? Should I just change it to 1/2 HD and apply size changes?

As others have noted, poodles are Small rather than Tiny. However, Tiny dogs undoubtedly exist. However, why do you need to stat them out? Fighting a few chihuahuas isn't exactly the stuff that epic adventure is made of.

[SirNibbles]

Does a Jack Russell count?

They don't really have the same vertical as a cat, usually needing help from a wall to get a second jump. Also, Jack Russells are definitely bigger than Tiny, weighing 14-18 lbs. However, it might make sense to use them as the basis for smaller dogs since they are more functional (bred for hunting) and thus fit better in a D&D setting than something like a Chihuahua.

[Jack_Simth]

Actually, those tiny, aggressive, yappy dogs that annoy everyone can serve a useful function: They're proximity alarms. While they're not useful in a fight, they don't eat much, and are easy to carry. It takes some training for them to tell what i a threat, sure. But they'll tell you if a car's coming down the way, often far before you're aware of it.

And if they are being used as an alarm system in a D&D world, well... you're going to need to know their Spot / Listen scores, the range of their Scent, how much damage it takes from an arrow to silence one, and their AC.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jack_Simth
Actually, those tiny, aggressive, yappy dogs that annoy everyone can serve a useful function….

Besides their alarm function, you can also throw them behind you when being chased by a wide variety of predators. Whether you’re being pursued by guard dogs, angry goblins or spoiled socialites, throwing a mini-yapper at them is guaranteed to delay pursuit.

[MisterKaws]

Besides their alarm function, you can also throw them behind you when being chased by a wide variety of predators. Whether you’re being pursued by guard dogs, angry goblins or spoiled socialites, throwing a mini-yapper at them is guaranteed to delay pursuit.

Y-you monster!

How could you?! All those cute puppies!

[Palanan]

I know, I know. It's hard on the guard dogs.

:smalltongue:

[Malphegor]

Y-you monster!

How could you?! All those cute puppies!

That reminds me, it is known for sure that 101 of dalmatian pups can be used to make a single skinny tall person's high quality coat. (cruella was presumably allowing for a LOT of waste cuts)

That's probably a good indicator of how many you need for survival checks to cut basic equipment from small dogs. (we can presumably compare that against other creatures maybe?)

[Jack_Simth]

That reminds me, it is known for sure that 101 of dalmatian pups can be used to make a single skinny tall person's high quality coat. (cruella was presumably allowing for a LOT of waste cuts)

That's probably a good indicator of how many you need for survival checks to cut basic equipment from small dogs. (we can presumably compare that against other creatures maybe?)

99. She wasn't planning on the two adult dogs.

[RedMage125]

Poodles are Hunting Dogs, and darn good ones at that. Very Intelligent for Dog standards as well.
This is true. Especially of the standard poodle. Of note is that ALL poodles of any size are actually very aggressive. Way more aggressive than most pit bulls.

Specifically they were bred as water retrievers, which is also why the traditional poodle cut.

That's actually originally for racing them in the water. I assume, of course, you mean the "nearly entirely shaved except for big poofy bits around the ribcage and joints". That was to make them as aquadynamic as possible, while keeping the lungs and heart and joints warm. If you just want a dog to retrieve something out of the water, like a duck or something, get a lab. They have webbed feet and are stupidly obsessed with fetching things.

[Gallowglass]

Cats are right on the edge of tiny/small in terms of real life dimensions/weight. Toy Poodles and Poodles are different. Kind of like Lesser Orb of Acid vs Orb of Acid.


Now I want to make a Lesser Orb of Poodles and Orb of Poodles spell.

A DM gave me a magic painting once of a nobleman with his poodles. If you said "oodles of poodles" a swarm of poodles came out and attacked as you directed. I don't remember what stats we used for the poodle attack, but it was a swarm attack anyway.

I stapled the painting on the back of my shield. In combat when I was overwhelmed by multiple foes, I would snarl out "oodles of poodles" and a swarm of poodles oozes out of the back of my shield and set on my foes.

Take that you bastards!

[MisterKaws]

Now I want to make a Lesser Orb of Poodles and Orb of Poodles spell.

A DM gave me a magic painting once of a nobleman with his poodles. If you said "oodles of poodles" a swarm of poodles came out and attacked as you directed. I don't remember what stats we used for the poodle attack, but it was a swarm attack anyway.

I stapled the painting on the back of my shield. In combat when I was overwhelmed by multiple foes, I would snarl out "oodles of poodles" and a swarm of poodles oozes out of the back of my shield and set on my foes.

Take that you bastards!

Prolly rat swarm. Fits the bill if you take some of their abilities away.

[ShurikVch]

Note: in the d20 Modern, description for Small-sized Dog says: "Small dogs include terriers and wild canines such as coyotes, jackals, and African wild dogs." There are some rather little terrier breeds (such as Australian Silky Terrier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Silky_Terrier)), and among "wild canines" we can see Sri Lankan jackal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_jackal).
So, how about to just use the average Dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm) statistics, and say its "on the smaller side of Small" (like Drow and Goblins are almost the same size, but one is considered Medium, while other one - Small)

Or, maybe, re-fluff a Fox as a Tiny Dog (there are some statblocks for Tiny-sized Foxes)?

[Jack_Simth]

That's actually originally for racing them in the water. I assume, of course, you mean the "nearly entirely shaved except for big poofy bits around the ribcage and joints". That was to make them as aquadynamic as possible, while keeping the lungs and heart and joints warm. If you just want a dog to retrieve something out of the water, like a duck or something, get a lab. They have webbed feet and are stupidly obsessed with fetching things.
That breed B is better than breed A at a particular thing does not change that breed A was bred for that thing.

[SirNibbles]

Now I want to make a Lesser Orb of Poodles and Orb of Poodles spell.

A DM gave me a magic painting once of a nobleman with his poodles. If you said "oodles of poodles" a swarm of poodles came out and attacked as you directed. I don't remember what stats we used for the poodle attack, but it was a swarm attack anyway.

I stapled the painting on the back of my shield. In combat when I was overwhelmed by multiple foes, I would snarl out "oodles of poodles" and a swarm of poodles oozes out of the back of my shield and set on my foes.

Take that you bastards!

Orb of Poodles, Lesser
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Wiz/Sorc 1
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One orb of 1d3+1 Toy Poodles
Duration: 3 rounds
Saving Throw: None and Reflex negates; see text
Spell Resistance: No

An orb of toy poodles (see page 223) shoots from your palm at its target. On a successful ranged attack, the orb strikes your target and each poodle deals bite damage to the target. Each poodle then makes a grapple check (with a bonus equal to your caster level) to sink its teeth in and attach to the target. If they succeed, the target is treated as grappling and it takes bite damage from each attached poodle at the start of your turn every round. Any poodle which fails to attach immediately disappears. The target can attempt a full round action to clear itself of all attached poodles by making a Reflex saving throw (DC increases by 1 for each attached poodle beyond the first), or it can attempt to attack the poodles normally.

Orb of Poodles
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Wiz/Sorc 4
Effect: One orb of 1d3+1 Poodles
Duration: 1 round/caster level

This spell functions as Orb of Poodles, Lesser, except that the poodles created are standard poodles (see page 155) and the duration is 1 round/caster level.

[ericgrau]

Use a hybrid of cat and dog stats, picking and choosing where appropriate.

I assume this is for a familiar. Otherwise its stats are "You kick it, it dies."

[Elkad]

A Bichon Frise or Chihuahua is better modeled using the stats of a rat, not a cat. Just take away Climb, Swim, and replace Stealthy with "Barks Incessantly for No Reason at All"

[Chronos]

A cat is not "right on the boundary between tiny and small". A cat is the type example for the Tiny size, just like a human is the type example for Medium size. So anything that's approximately the size of a cat, a little smaller or bigger, is Tiny.

[SirNibbles]

A cat is not "right on the boundary between tiny and small". A cat is the type example for the Tiny size, just like a human is the type example for Medium size. So anything that's approximately the size of a cat, a little smaller or bigger, is Tiny.

Something slightly bigger than something that is slightly smaller than small is small. That's the point you clearly missed. Someone was saying that (miniature) poodles are similar in size to cats. And they are, but they're bigger. Since cats are already close to the lower end of small size/upper end of tiny, making them bigger makes them...

*drumroll*

small.

[Ashtagon]

Medium: 4-8 ft (120-240 cm)
Small: 2-4 ft (60-120 cm)
Tiny: 1-2 ft (30-60 cm)
Diminutive: 1/2-1 ft (15-30 cm)
Fine: 1/4-1/2 ft (7.5-15 cm)

Wikipedia says the average domestic cat is 46 cm in length (not counting tail), which makes it squarely in the middle of the Tiny range.

Standard poodles are (UK Kennel Club definitions) over 38 cm, making them "Tiny or larger" (although I doubt many, if any, poodles are Small in D&D terms). Miniature poodles are 28-33 cm, making them at the bottom end of Tiny. Toy poodles are under 28 cm, making them Diminutive.

[liquidformat]

Why not just use the pathfinder fox?


They don't really have the same vertical as a cat, usually needing help from a wall to get a second jump. Also, Jack Russells are definitely bigger than Tiny, weighing 14-18 lbs. However, it might make sense to use them as the basis for smaller dogs since they are more functional (bred for hunting) and thus fit better in a D&D setting than something like a Chihuahua.

I have a 10lb poodle terrier mix and he can jump onto our counters just fine...


This is true. Especially of the standard poodle. Of note is that ALL poodles of any size are actually very aggressive. Way more aggressive than most pit bulls.


I call BS, I dog sit and quite often get poodles and have yet to meet a single one that is at all aggressive. Then again pits aren't an aggressive breed either, strong yes aggressive no.

[RedMage125]

That breed B is better than breed A at a particular thing does not change that breed A was bred for that thing.
Sure, fine. But the poofy, ridiculous pom-pom haircut was for racing.


I call BS, I dog sit and quite often get poodles and have yet to meet a single one that is at all aggressive. Then again pits aren't an aggressive breed either, strong yes aggressive no.

The way a dog is raised by its owners (parents) always has the most profound effect on a dog's behavior. That doesn't change that it is true that poodles are considered aggressive as a breed. That doesn't solely mean that they attack every stranbger they meet, either. There was a standard poodle next door when i was growing up and had a Collie. The poodle would constantly hump and dominate my dog, would always approach very quickly and get in close quarters with other dogs or people, and he would bark his stupid head off all the time. He wasn't a violent dog, but he WAS very aggressive.

Certain traits are common among purebred animals of specific breeds, whether it's physical or behavioral tendencies. I could tell you that dalmations, as a breed, are prone to blindness and/or deafness. Just because you met a very old dalmation without either of those things does not make the tendency less true. English Bulldogs frequently have heart problems, Pugs often have sinus issues, and lots of purebred breeds have hip problems. Labradors frequently stay in that hyper "puppy mentality" until about 5, when most dogs grow out of it at about 2. One can say these things about the breed, and still have hundreds of individual animals that are exceptions to this. Just because you know a 3 year old lab that no longer acts like a puppy doesn't make it not a true generalization of the breed.

I agree that pit bulls aren't very aggressive, but they somehow have a reputation for such.

[SirNibbles]

Medium: 4-8 ft (120-240 cm)
Small: 2-4 ft (60-120 cm)
Tiny: 1-2 ft (30-60 cm)
Diminutive: 1/2-1 ft (15-30 cm)
Fine: 1/4-1/2 ft (7.5-15 cm)

Wikipedia says the average domestic cat is 46 cm in length (not counting tail), which makes it squarely in the middle of the Tiny range.

Standard poodles are (UK Kennel Club definitions) over 38 cm, making them "Tiny or larger" (although I doubt many, if any, poodles are Small in D&D terms). Miniature poodles are 28-33 cm, making them at the bottom end of Tiny. Toy poodles are under 28 cm, making them Diminutive.

By length cats are Tiny and by weight (Google says around 10 lbs is normal, but highly variable by breed) they are Small, hence saying they're right on the edge.

Dog heights are measured to their withers and they are quadrupeds, so you need nose to butt length, not height, for D&D sizing. For a toy poodle, that's right around 2 feet, and its weight is right on the border as well but you can safely put it in tiny. The other poodles are solidly small or bigger.

[Ashtagon]

By length cats are Tiny and by weight (Google says around 10 lbs is normal, but highly variable by breed) they are Small, hence saying they're right on the edge.

Dog heights are measured to their withers and they are quadrupeds, so you need nose to butt length, not height, for D&D sizing. For a toy poodle, that's right around 2 feet, and its weight is right on the border as well but you can safely put it in tiny. The other poodles are solidly small or bigger.

Your toy poodle is about twice as long as what wikipedia says a toy poodle is.
:smallwink:

[Kaleph]

Your toy poodle is about twice as long as what wikipedia says a toy poodle is.
:smallwink:

It has powerful build

[OgresAreCute]

By length cats are Tiny and by weight (Google says around 10 lbs is normal, but highly variable by breed) they are Small, hence saying they're right on the edge.

You should use the dimension track and not the weight track when determining sizes. The table in the MM even says that a creature of the same size might weigh considerably more or less depending on body composition. If you use weight to determine Size, you get weird situations like a 6 ft. tall construct of gold has longer reach than a 6 ft. tall human made of flesh.

For the most part, Size is a function of Dimension, and the Weight column is a guideline or suggestion at best.

[Ashtagon]

I just realised I was reading the height from wikipedia as length. There doesn't seem to be any official standard for length of a poodle, but judging from pictures, they average about 20% longer than their shoulder height, so my size class conclusions still hold true.

[Stoic]

Dragon #237 page 18 has an article "Man's Best Friend" that has 5 Types of dogs and the bonuses each one gets:


Tracking Dogs: Bloodhound, Basenji, Wolfhound, and Beagle.

Hunting Dogs: Golden and Labrador Retrievers, Pointer, Brittany, and the Irish Setter.

Working Dogs: German Shepherd, Old English Sheepdog, Collie, and Shetland Sheepdog.

War Dogs: Great Dane, Mastiff, Rottweiler, and the Saint Bernard.

Companion Dogs: Bulldog Chow Chow, Dalmatian, and Poodle.


The Article also has a 3 page list of skills the dogs can learn.

[ShurikVch]

I just realised I was reading the height from wikipedia as length. There doesn't seem to be any official standard for length of a poodle, but judging from pictures, they average about 20% longer than their shoulder height, so my size class conclusions still hold true.On average, dogs are "square": their height (withers to ground) is equal to their body length (breastbone to the point of the rump)



You should use the dimension track and not the weight track when determining sizes. The table in the MM even says that a creature of the same size might weigh considerably more or less depending on body composition. If you use weight to determine Size, you get weird situations like a 6 ft. tall construct of gold has longer reach than a 6 ft. tall human made of flesh.

For the most part, Size is a function of Dimension, and the Weight column is a guideline or suggestion at best.Let's see:
Purple Worm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/purpleWorm.htm) is 80' long, but it's just Gargantuan - not Colossal
Iron Cobra is 3' long, but Medium - not Small
Glacier Snake is 12' long, but it's Medium - not Large
Reed Snake is from 2' to 4' long (i. e. - literally the listed Height or Length interval for Small size), but it's Tiny
So, it looks like the Size is a function of Weight, and the Height or Length column is "a guideline or suggestion at best"

And about the "says that a creature of the same size might weigh considerably more or less depending on body composition" - let's quote it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat):
5. Assumes that the creature is roughly as dense as a regular animal. A creature made of stone will weigh considerably more. A gaseous creature will weigh much less.Since we have no reason to presume a Poodle's body to be "made of stone" or something, let's see how it Weight fit into the Size chart:
Standard Poodle: 45-70 lb. - Small/Medium border
Miniature Poodle: 15-17 lb. - strictly Small
Toy Poodle: 6-9 lb. - Tiny/Small border

[ericgrau]

Medium: 4-8 ft (120-240 cm)
Small: 2-4 ft (60-120 cm)
Tiny: 1-2 ft (30-60 cm)
Diminutive: 1/2-1 ft (15-30 cm)
Fine: 1/4-1/2 ft (7.5-15 cm)

Wikipedia says the average domestic cat is 46 cm in length (not counting tail), which makes it squarely in the middle of the Tiny range.

Standard poodles are (UK Kennel Club definitions) over 38 cm, making them "Tiny or larger" (although I doubt many, if any, poodles are Small in D&D terms). Miniature poodles are 28-33 cm, making them at the bottom end of Tiny. Toy poodles are under 28 cm, making them Diminutive.

So D&D sizes of different varieties of poodles... is this what we've come to? :smallyuk:

[hamishspence]

Let's see:
Purple Worm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/purpleWorm.htm) is 80' long, but it's just Gargantuan - not Colossal
Iron Cobra is 3' long, but Medium - not Small
Glacier Snake is 12' long, but it's Medium - not Large
Reed Snake is from 2' to 4' long (i. e. - literally the listed Height or Length interval for Small size), but it's Tiny
So, it looks like the Size is a function of Weight, and the Height or Length column is "a guideline or suggestion at best"

All of which are non-quadrupeds - basically "worms/snakes".

[ShurikVch]

All of which are non-quadrupeds - basically "worms/snakes".Do you mean they're... biped?.. :smallconfused:
The only time it mentioned "quadruped" at all is Height or Length4
4. Biped's height, quadruped's body length (nose to base of tail)

[Lapak]

Clearly 3.5 should have broken Size into two categories: Dimension-Size and Mass-Size. Then you could base STR and DEX modifiers on Mass, but Speed and Reach on Dimension, so you can have sensible Small/Medium Dwarves, Small/Small Halflings, Medium/Small Drow, and as a fringe benefit we could measure dogs correctly. ;)

[Gallowglass]

Clearly 3.5 should have broken Size into two categories: Dimension-Size and Mass-Size. Then you could base STR and DEX modifiers on Mass, but Speed and Reach on Dimension, so you can have sensible Small/Medium Dwarves, Small/Small Halflings, Medium/Small Drow, and as a fringe benefit we could measure dogs correctly. ;)

Sounds like we need 3.75 to address the deficiency.

[hamishspence]

Do you mean they're... biped?.. :smallconfused:
The only time it mentioned "quadruped" at all is Height or Length4

The point is that given that they have no limbs, snakes are difficult to gauge - neither the quadruped nor the biped figures are much of a guide.

[OgresAreCute]

Sounds like we need 3.75 to address the deficiency.

No need, the Immortals Handbook already did this with virtual size categories :smallamused:

[ShurikVch]

The point is that given that they have no limbs, snakes are difficult to gauge - neither the quadruped nor the biped figures are much of a guide.You mean - more difficult than Fungi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm), Oozes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm), or Animated Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm)?

[HouseRules]

Play with food.
Your 1 inch cube of Gelatin becomes a 10-foot Gelatinous Cube.
Old School scale: 1 inch = 10 feet while exploring a dungeon, 3 inch or 4 inch = 10 feet while in combat.

[SirNibbles]

I just realised I was reading the height from wikipedia as length. There doesn't seem to be any official standard for length of a poodle, but judging from pictures, they average about 20% longer than their shoulder height, so my size class conclusions still hold true.

You're right. I was trying to judge it based on estimating from google images on my phone while assuming height was 11 and using ratios to compare. At best, you're looking at around 18 inches in length.

https://i.imgur.com/4cKqemu.png

__


You should use the dimension track and not the weight track when determining sizes. The table in the MM even says that a creature of the same size might weigh considerably more or less depending on body composition. If you use weight to determine Size, you get weird situations like a 6 ft. tall construct of gold has longer reach than a 6 ft. tall human made of flesh.

For the most part, Size is a function of Dimension, and the Weight column is a guideline or suggestion at best.

"Assumes that the creature is roughly as dense as a regular animal. A creature made of stone will weigh considerably more. A gaseous creature will weigh much less."

Pretty sure that dogs are animals, and weight is important in determining size. Mastiffs and Greyhounds are both about 30 inches tall (as dogs are measured) but mastiffs weigh about 2-3x more.

__


Clearly 3.5 should have broken Size into two categories: Dimension-Size and Mass-Size. Then you could base STR and DEX modifiers on Mass, but Speed and Reach on Dimension, so you can have sensible Small/Medium Dwarves, Small/Small Halflings, Medium/Small Drow, and as a fringe benefit we could measure dogs correctly. ;)


Sounds like we need 3.75 to address the deficiency.


No need, the Immortals Handbook already did this with virtual size categories :smallamused:

I took a cursory glance at virtual size categories and it seems to make a lot of sense.

__


Dragon #237 page 18 has an article "Man's Best Friend" that has 5 Types of dogs and the bonuses each one gets...

Isn't that before 3e was released?