Ideas for Polymorph

[Jay R]

My wizard (Gnome illusionist) has reached fourth level, and now has polymorph. He is the only full arcane caster in the party, so he needs the best possible ideas.

Obviously, he will spend most of his time in melee running illusions, but he can polymorph others first, including his familiar.

The familiar will stay weak in hit points, but a 7 HD monster with a long-range attack would still be useful. The best one I've come up with is a 7-headed cryohydra.

So in general, I have a few questions:

1. What are the more-or-less best monsters for another PC to become in melee?

2. What are the more-or-less best monsters for a familiar to become in melee (recognizing that he will still have few hit points)?

3. What are the best non-combat uses for polymorph?

4. Since you get the STR of the new form, what creature with usable hands has the highest STR?

5. What really cool idea doesn't fit any of my questions?

[ayvango]

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=519.0

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is your DM houseruling that alter self's within-one-size-category restriction is no longer enforced on polymorph? Because you'd need a Large familiar (at least) to turn it into a hydra.

If you have a high Cha, cloaker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cloaker.htm) grants AoE hold monster/panic/nausea at will (with a good DC).

Choker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm), with a side-order of Assume Supernatural Ability, meanwhile, can grant you an extra standard action every round.

Pixie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm) (also with ASA) is a good way to get lots of improved invisibility that you can turn on and off at will. Plus flight!

The invisible stalker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/invisibleStalker.htm)'s invisibility is even better in some ways, because it can't be turned off through normal means (though polymorph itself can be dispelled).

Alternatively, turn into Fine-sized bugs. Nobody will pay any attention to a ladybug or a fly, so long as it's not buzzing them.

[edit] Mi-mi-mi-mimic! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mimic.htm) allows you to look like an object while being a creature. This comes in handy a lot more than you might think.

[Jay R]

Is your DM houseruling that alter self's within-one-size-category restriction is no longer enforced on polymorph? Because you'd need a Large familiar (at least) to turn it into a hydra.

"Houseruling"? It never occurred to me that it would apply. They are different spells, with different rules. Re-reading it, I see how people could assume that it does.

Alter self: "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size."

Polymorph: "This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types..."

It seems to me that the restrictions of the first one are being changed to a different set of restrictions.

But I can see how somebody could read it differently. I'll ask him.

[ayvango]

Is your DM houseruling that alter self's within-one-size-category restriction is no longer enforced on polymorph? Because you'd need a Large familiar (at least) to turn it into a hydra.

Well, you need two houserules at once. Strictly speaking 5 HD limit from Alter Self is still enforced for Polymorph. So you need to houserule for polymorphing into high HD creatures.

[RoboEmperor]

"Houseruling"? It never occurred to me that it would apply. They are different spells, with different rules. Re-reading it, I see how people could assume that it does.

Alter self: "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size."

Polymorph: "This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types..."

It seems to me that the restrictions of the first one are being changed to a different set of restrictions.

But I can see how somebody could read it differently. I'll ask him.

Nope, they're wrong. PHB has several examples of polymorph being used to change forms more than one size category. A mouse to a lion for example. And a Lion to a snail. And an eagle into a goldfish.

Also this:

Are you ignoring my post? I explicitly showed you where the spells actually say you are wrong. I'll repeat it here.

You are trying to make the restrictions for "form of a creature of the same type as your normal form" apply to "another form of living creature".

"form of a creature of the same type as your normal form"

The new form must be within one size category of your normal size.
The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level.
You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.


"another form of living creature"

The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.
The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.
You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.


RAW text



Except means replace so you replace everything written for "form of a creature of the same type as your normal form" with "another form of living creature"

So put everything together
1. The Spell text says replace the size restriction of alter self with polymorph's size restriction.
2. Official use of polymorph ignores the size restriction of alter self.
3. Even the FAQ and rules of the game articles say polymorph's size restriction replaces alter self's. So MaxiDuRaritry literally has no basis for his claim.
Therefore MaxiDuRaritry is completely wrong especially when he insists his incorrect reading/interpretation is the sole reading/interpretation.

Also Cryo/Pyro hydra's breath weapon is a breath weapon so it's an (Su) ability so you can't use its breath weapon. You need to double check each ability a creature has is whether Ex, Su, or SLA and never assume it's natural just because it didn't state it. For example, Darkvision is an (Ex) ability yet all the monster stat blocks with darkvision don't tell you that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

{Scrubbed}

[RoboEmperor]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Why do you keep ignoring gogogome? I don't understand. Everything in the first paragraph of both spells is a description of what form you can turn into and polymorph's form replaces the rules for alter self's form. He put it very nicely in bullet point form and you still ignore him.

I'm not hijacking anything. I'm informing the OP that your incorrect reading is to be ignored.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Why do you keep ignoring gogogome? I don't understand. Everything in the first paragraph of both spells is a description of what form you can turn into and polymorph's form replaces the rules for alter self's form. He put it very nicely in bullet point form and you still ignore him.I've gone over this. It's not overriding anything from alter self regarding the size thing. There's not even any indication that it's supposed to.

Now stop hijacking the thread.

[RoboEmperor]

{Scrubbed}

[ayvango]

You mean the limit that is explicitly overridden?
I see no "override" keyword in the wording. So the HD limit is overridden implicitly, not explicitly. The same way the size limit is overridden.

[Jay R]

OK, thank you all for explaining your position on the issue of whether the size limit for Alter Self applies to Polymorph. You've presented each side well and fully, and I don't think we need any more discussion on that side issue. I will ask my DM for his ruling.

Getting back to my questions:

1. What are the more-or-less best monsters for another PC to become in melee?

2. What are the more-or-less best monsters for a familiar to become in melee (recognizing that he will still have few hit points)?

3. What are the best non-combat uses for polymorph?

4. Since you get the STR of the new form, what creature with usable hands has the highest STR?

5. What really cool idea doesn't fit any of my questions?

Feel free to give your answers assuming your position on the size question, but I don't need your explanation for which way my DM will rule. He'll supply that.

[Mike Miller]

Some useful info, what power level is the group generally? What other sorts of combat options does the party have? "Best" polymorph options are subjective.

[Rebel7284]

The one Polymorph option I hear a lot of folks enjoy for melee is war troll, found here: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6
Between Dazing Blow and a generally humanoid form that allows you to use all your items, it's pretty great. Not available at level 7 though

[Anthrowhale]

Ayvango's list is pretty canonical.

At level 7, Annis Hag looks like a good default. For a fighter type with +2 full plate armor Polymorph[Annis Hag] puts them at AC 30 (~=AC:No vs. CR 7 opponents) wielding a 2-handed sword+2, a Str+2 item, and a bite for 3d6+12 @+17 / 3d6+12 @+12 / 1d6+4 @+12, so the first attack basically always hits and the secondary attacks hit 75% of the time for an expected ~45 damage/round (~= 1/2 a CR 7 opponent).

The Hydra is pretty awkward due to huge size (=doesn't fit in many situations), slow movement, and loss of regular items. It might be situationally compelling if a rogue gets into an excellent flanking position.

The Gloura seems like a nice flying form since you can hover and the overall humanoid shape means you lose nothing item-wise.

If you have outsiders in your party, there are some other good options.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I see no "override" keyword in the wording. So the HD limit is overridden implicitly, not explicitly. The same way the size limit is overridden.It outright says you can take forms up to 15 HD. Meanwhile, it says you cannot take forms below Fine, while not saying you can take forms beyond one size category beyond your own. Can you really not see the difference there?

And why am I still arguing this with you? It's like banging my head against a glass window.

:roy:

[RoboEmperor]

It outright says you can take forms up to 15 HD. Meanwhile, it says you cannot take forms below Fine, while not saying you can take forms beyond one size category beyond your own. Can you really not see the difference there?

And why am I still arguing this with you? It's like banging my head against a glass window.

:roy:

Stop derailing the thread. OP said to stop the discussion so why are you continuing it? I mean seriously, gogogome showed the correct way to read the text, an author of PHB confirmed twice that his reading of the text was correct, we have official examples from the book using gogogome's reading, and here you are ignoring all of that and saying your incorrect reading of the text is correct because... who knows?

Stop derailing the thread now.

@OP
I can second that the War Troll is one of the most famous combat forms in the optimization community. No other form that has usable hands is as strong as the War Troll.

The Hydra can be a trap. It has bad strength so without high BAB Hydras can be a terrible option against high AC opponents so a wizard turning into a hydra is less than optimal.

[gogogome]

1. What are the more-or-less best monsters for another PC to become in melee?

War troll or Hydra
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6


2. What are the more-or-less best monsters for a familiar to become in melee (recognizing that he will still have few hit points)?

Probably War Troll or Hydra. You need to stack a ton of buffs beforehand though like spells that give temporary hitpoints. Remember you can share spells with familiars so personal range spells can be used as touch spells on the familiar. Hydra has 10ft reach so he can still stay at range while meleeing.


3. What are the best non-combat uses for polymorph?

Flight, swimming, water breathing, that kind of stuff.


4. Since you get the STR of the new form, what creature with usable hands has the highest STR?

War Troll


I've gone over this. It's not overriding anything from alter self regarding the size thing. There's not even any indication that it's supposed to.

The spell says to use Polymorph's form not Alter Self's form. Its the first sentence in the spell text. If you refuse to recognize that the spell is telling you to override Alter Self's form with Polymorph's form then that's on you.

The spell doesn't say "as Alter Self except where noted". It says it's as Alter Self except you use the form described here instead of the form described in Alter Self.

[Crake]

Now stop hijacking the thread over your "interpretations" (read: incorrect readings) of RAW.

Why do people find it so hard to believe that things can be read in different ways, and adamantly insist that theirs is the One True Raw™ and everything else is a houserule? Accept that there are multiple ways to read it, state which one you use, and why, then move on, but don't insist that yours is the only way to read it.

[RoboEmperor]

@gogogome
I think you're forgetting Polymorph is restricted by the target's hd as well. So using a familiar for polymorph combat just cannot happen.

[Crake]

@gogogome
I think you're forgetting Polymorph is restricted by the target's hd as well. So using a familiar for polymorph combat just cannot happen.

Familiars are treated as having the same HD as their masters for adjudicating effects, so if you're level 7, your familiar would be treated as having 7HD for polymorph restrictions

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Why do people find it so hard to believe that things can be read in different ways, and adamantly insist that theirs is the One True Raw™ and everything else is a houserule? Accept that there are multiple ways to read it, state which one you use, and why, then move on, but don't insist that yours is the only way to read it.What, like saying that polymorph doesn't explicitly tell you that it allows forms up to 15 HD? Or that it somehow overrides alter self's size restrictions when it actually doesn't?

So if I tell you that the sky is made of cream cheese and jalapenos when it demonstrably isn't, is that somehow also valid?

[sorcererlover]

What, like saying that polymorph doesn't explicitly tell you that it allows forms up to 15 HD? Or that it somehow overrides alter self's size restrictions when it actually doesn't?

So if I tell you that the sky is made of cream cheese and jalapenos when it demonstrably isn't, is that somehow also valid?

First Psyren in that simulacrum thread and now this guy in two polymorph threads. Why are there so many people here that ignore explicit RAW and just drone on and on about previously disproved points? Do they want attention? Or is this essential to their munchkin build?

The spell says polymorph is like alter self except you use the form described here instead of the one described in alter self. There is no 1 size category restriction in polymorph's form description therefore there is no 1 size category restriction.

Why am I even bother responding? All this guy's been doing is screaming while ignoring the direct RAW people have been shoving in his face for 2 whole threads now.


Why do people find it so hard to believe that things can be read in different ways, and adamantly insist that theirs is the One True Raw™ and everything else is a houserule? Accept that there are multiple ways to read it, state which one you use, and why, then move on, but don't insist that yours is the only way to read it.

That's only true if you don't have the author of the spell telling you that one reading is the correct one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

First Psyren in that simulacrum thread and now this guy in two polymorph threads. Why are there so many people here that ignore explicit RAW and just drone on and on about previously disproved points? Do they want attention? Or is this essential to their munchkin build?

The spell says polymorph is like alter self except you use the form described here instead of the one described in alter self. There is no 1 size category restriction in polymorph's form description therefore there is no 1 size category restriction.

Why am I even bother responding? All this guy's been doing is screaming while ignoring the direct RAW people have been shoving in his face for 2 whole threads now.What part of "as alter self" don't you get? It's not hard. Polymorph says "as alter self, except you can't take a size smaller than Fine." That doesn't override the "within one size category" restriction. It just says if you're already Fine, you can't go smaller (which alter self would allow you to do, but polymorph doesn't, even though there are no smaller-than-Fine forms). I have yet to see anyone actually quote any part of the spell description that overrides the size restrictions on alter self (except the part that restricts it further).

I'm not the one overlooking RAW, here.

[sorcererlover]

What part of "as alter self" don't you get? It's not hard. Polymorph says "as alter self, except you can't take a size smaller than Fine." That doesn't override the "within one size category" restriction. It just says if you're already Fine, you can't go smaller (which alter self would allow you to do, but polymorph doesn't, even though there are no smaller-than-Fine forms). I have yet to see anyone actually quote any part of the spell description that overrides the size restrictions on alter self (except the part that restricts it further).

I'm not the one overlooking RAW, here.

It's not "as alter self except you can't take a size smaller than fine", it's "except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature"

Describe "another form of living creature". And while your at it describe "form of a creature of the same type as your normal form" from alter self. And then tell me why the word "except" means alter self's form is merged with polymorph's form?

You're caught redhanded here changing the RAW. Don't change the RAW and read it as it is. It says it's like alter self except instead of turning into a form within 1 size category of your self, it lets you turn into a form within 15hd.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you were to take the descriptions of alter self and polymorph and combine them, it would look like this:


Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

You retain your own ability scores. The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.That's what it's supposed to look like. There is no provision in polymorph for overcoming alter self's size restriction, as it says "as alter self, except no size smaller than Fine." Nowhere else does polymorph reference size, and the one reference it does have does not allow you to bypass the within-one-size-category restriction. Instead, it just disallows going smaller than Fine.

I'm not sure how else to state this. People keep quoting "no size smaller than Fine" and the type allowances, somehow inferring that they allow you to overcome alter self's size restriction, but they don't. At all.


It's not "as alter self except you can't take a size smaller than fine", it's "except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature"

Describe "another form of living creature". And while your at it describe "form of a creature of the same type as your normal form" from alter self. And then tell me why the word "except" means alter self's form is merged with polymorph's form?

You're caught redhanded here changing the RAW. Don't change the RAW and read it as it is. It says it's like alter self except instead of turning into a form within 1 size category of your self, it lets you turn into a form within 15hd.How does "another form of living creature" indicate that you can change size? That makes no sense and does not follow at all.

[sorcererlover]

If you were to take the descriptions of alter self and polymorph and combine them, it would look like this:

That's what it's supposed to look like. There is no provision in polymorph for overcoming alter self's size restriction, as it says "as alter self, except no size smaller than Fine." Nowhere else does polymorph reference size, and the one reference it does have does not allow you to bypass the within-one-size-category restriction. Instead, it just disallows going smaller than Fine.

I'm not sure how else to state this. People keep quoting "no size smaller than Fine" and the type allowances, somehow inferring that they allow you to overcome alter self's size restriction, but they don't. At all.

How does "another form of living creature" indicate that you can change size? That makes no sense and does not follow at all.

Nope you got it wrong. This is how it will look and I'm only gonna quote the relevant part.


You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

The bolded part is the "form of a creature of the same type as your normal form.


This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

The bolded is the "another form of living creature".

The spell says it's like alter self EXCEPT that you turn into a form of living creature instead of a creature of the same type as your normal form.

SO IF YOU CUT ALTER SELF'S FORM DESCRIPTION OUT AND PASTE POLYMORPH'S FORM IT BECOMES


You assume the form of a living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

What you're doing is cutting a piece of Alter Self's form description and inserting it into Polymorph's form description when the spell says EXCEPT

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Nope you got it wrong. This is how it will look and I'm only gonna quote the relevant part.

The bolded part is the "form of a creature of the same type as your normal form.

The bolded is the "another form of living creature".

The spell says it's like alter self EXCEPT that you turn into a form of living creature instead of a creature of the same type as your normal form.

SO IF YOU CUT ALTER SELF'S FORM DESCRIPTION OUT AND PASTE POLYMORPH'S FORM IT BECOMES

What you're doing is cutting a piece of Alter Self's form description and inserting it into Polymorph's form description when the spell says EXCEPTAnd I still don't see any indication that you can change into a form of living creature more than one size category away. That just means a human can turn into a wolf or a troll, but not a storm giant.

Where in polymorph does it state that you can turn into forms 2+ size categories away from yours? You quote a bunch of irrelevant text and somehow that makes your point? How?

[sorcererlover]

And I still don't see any indication that you can change into a form of living creature more than one size category away. That just means a human can turn into a wolf or a troll, but not a storm giant.

Where in polymorph does it state that you can turn into forms 2+ size categories away from yours? You quote a bunch of irrelevant text and somehow that makes your point? How?

Maybe this will help

Alter Self:
You can turn into Form A. (Form A description) <---- Form A description has size category restriction

Polymorph:
Identical to Alter Self EXCEPT You turn into Form B instead of Form A. (Form B description) <--- doesn't have the size category restriction.

Combined:
You can turn into Form B (Form B description) <--- still doesn't have the size category restriction.

You are replacing the entire form, NOT properties of the form.

If the spell said "as alter self except where noted" you're right. But it doesn't. It says "as alter self except you turn into Form B not Form A"

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Maybe this will help

Alter Self:
You can turn into Form A. (Form A description) <---- Form A description has size category restriction

Polymorph:
Identical to Alter Self EXCEPT You turn into Form B instead of Form A. (Form B description) <--- doesn't have the size category restriction.

Combined:
You can turn into Form B (Form B description) <--- still doesn't have the size category restriction.

You are replacing the entire form, NOT properties of the form.

If the spell said "as alter self except where noted" you're right. But it doesn't. It says "as alter self except you turn into Form B not Form A"You would think that if polymorph wanted you to become larger or smaller sizes that it would actually say so, wouldn't you?

Metamorphosis does. Shapechange does.

Where does polymorph say so?

Lack of text on the subject does not indicate that the text somehow overrides the text it references that does state it.

[sorcererlover]

You would think that if polymorph wanted you to become larger or smaller sizes that it would actually say so, wouldn't you?

Metamorphosis does. Shapechange does.

Where does polymorph say so?

ROFL. So here the screaming starts.

FYI Shapechange doesn't say you can change into a creature bigger than 1 size category. It says it's like polymorph except that you can turn into a creature between fine and colossal. Where does it say Alter Self's size restriction is lifted? If "you can't assume a form smaller than fine" doesn't, why would "you can assume a form between fine and colossal"? After all, both restrictions can work together. Your form must be within 1 size category and must be between fine and colossal.

We told you what the spell is actually saying: Ignore Alter Self's entire form description and completely replace it with Polymorph's description.
We showed you RAW. Direct explicit RAW that says EXCEPT USE POLYMORPH's FORM INSTEAD OF ALTER SELF'S FORM.
We have the Author of the spell telling you that this is what he meant when he wrote the spell. So the spell does in fact want you to turn into a form fine or bigger with no other restriction. I can't believe you're trying to argue RAI. It's hilarious.
We have the PHB using Polymorph like it's read our way

And your counterargument is, shapechange said you can turn into a form larger than one size category (it does not) while polymorph didn't? And you're saying you're right by RAW?

Oh and btw, if you learned what Logic is in school

Shapechange: You can't turn into a creature smaller than fine or bigger than colossal.
Polymorph: You can turn into a creature fine or bigger.

All of which are still true. So Polymorph is saying you can turn into any creature fine or bigger.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If your doctor tells you tomorrow that you can't eat dairy, does that mean you can suddenly safely eat glass and wood and uranium and FOOF because he added another restriction to your diet without explicitly saying you couldn't eat those things? Because that's the kind of thing you're touting as "logic."

[sorcererlover]

If your doctor tells you tomorrow that you can't eat dairy, does that mean you can suddenly safely eat glass and wood and uranium and FOOF because he added another restriction to your diet without explicitly saying you couldn't eat those things? Because that's the kind of thing you're touting as "logic."

Why don't you show us where the spell text says alter self's restriction carries over? It doesn't say "as alter self except where noted". It says "as alter self except use polymorph's form".

I'm done here. It's not my job to help thickheaded people who fail reading comprehension to the point it took 3 people repeating the same exact thing to get through. And once it does he makes up a new reason. "polymorph didn't give an upper size limit so you can't polymorph into anything" ROFL.

I mean really. Simple math. !(<fine) = fine<=. And he says that's uranium and wood. The crazies you meet on the internet. Jesus Christ. One more person to add to my ignore list.

[Crake]

That's only true if you don't have the author of the spell telling you that one reading is the correct one.

I'm guessing this is referring to the rules of the game: polymorphing article where skip williams states that polymorph allows you to assume any form from fine to colossal?

[sorcererlover]

I'm guessing this is referring to the rules of the game: polymorphing article where skip williams states that polymorph allows you to assume any form from fine to colossal?

And the FAQ. Thurbane quoted it in that other thread. Shouldn't be hard to find.

[Malphegor]

I always go by ‘what could Merlin and Madam Mim turn into in Disney’s Sword in the Stone?’ Beyond Merlin’s microscopic germ shenangians (somebody musta been flipping through his monster manual mid fight, hehe), it was mostly large to fine, with maybe the purple dragon being huge, but that could be a seperate polymorph spell.

That’s generally my baseline for transforming people now, since I know it looks cool and not ridiculous- what would Merlin do is a good basis for D&D wizard roleplaying I reckon.

I probably could make bigger things, but I would prefer prefacing a colossal sized thing with at least a enlarge person just to make it seem... reasonable.

But that’s just me adding unecessary stuff.

[Crake]

And the FAQ. Thurbane quoted it in that other thread. Shouldn't be hard to find.

Ah yeah, it actually specifically addresses this very point.


Alter self (PH 197), the base spell in the polymorph
chain, says that the new form must be within one size
category of your normal size. Is the same true of other
spells in the chain?
Not necessarily, although the rules aren’t as clear as they
could be. Polymorph, and any spell that refers back to it (such
as polymorph any object), allows the new form to be of any
size of Fine or greater. Shapechange specifically delineates its
size limitations (Fine to Colossal), which is a much clearer way
of saying the same thing.

[Segev]

Turning your familiar into a hydra and letting it deliver your chill touch’s CL worth of d6s + Str damage sounds effective to me.

Bolster this with illusions of hydras, and wait for the enemy to start ignoring them to give it a flat-footed attack.

[TheYell]

I've run into DMs who say your choices for such spells are limited to those your character knows, so, have some sort of backstory ready if you're going to cite War Trolls. Such as, "they ate my cousin"

[RoboEmperor]

I've run into DMs who say your choices for such spells are limited to those your character knows, so, have some sort of backstory ready if you're going to cite War Trolls. Such as, "they ate my cousin"

It's called a knowledge check. DC10 + hd of creature. And you can take 10. So if your int mod + skill ranks is greater than or equal to the hd of the target creature you know it.

[Malphegor]

It's called a knowledge check. DC10 + hd of creature. And you can take 10. So if your int mod + skill ranks is greater than or equal to the hd of the target creature you know it.

Plus any wizard worth his pointy hat with polymorph, if in a city with a decently civilised arcane research lab within its boundaries, will doubtlessly pick up a few piles of bestiaries (cough cough monster manuals) to at least have passing knowledge of most creatures, though yes they'll need a knowledge check to remember it in the heat of battle.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Make sure you have at least 1 point in whatever Knowledge covers your own creature type. Most humans don't know what other humans are, since they don't have Knowledge: Local as a class skill, and thus don't have a rank in it.

...It would certainly explain why there are so many half-human halfbreeds around...

[Crake]

Make sure you have at least 1 point in whatever Knowledge covers your own creature type. Most humans don't know what other humans are, since they don't have Knowledge: Local as a class skill, and thus don't have a rank in it.

...It would certainly explain why there are so many half-human halfbreeds around...

Creatures with no racial HD would be 10+0, which means DC10, common knowledge, which people without ranks can still meet, and people with at least 10 can meet with a take 10. So everyone would know about humans unless they had a negative int modifier.


I've run into DMs who say your choices for such spells are limited to those your character knows, so, have some sort of backstory ready if you're going to cite War Trolls. Such as, "they ate my cousin"

I think this kind of rule usually stems from the wild shape rules which state that the druid must be familiar with whichever form they want to take. Definitely a decent houserule to use, one that I'm personally quite behind.


It's called a knowledge check. DC10 + hd of creature. And you can take 10. So if your int mod + skill ranks is greater than or equal to the hd of the target creature you know it.

Knowledge of something, and being familiar with said thing are two different things. The DMs I've known who have used this rule (myself included) wouldn't allow just a simple knowledge check. I actually had a book cataloguing all of the monsters we encountered, noting where it was, it's major features and abilities, and HD, as a reference book for what creatures I could polymorph into.

Edit: Thinking back, it was actually my skyrim collectors edition notebook that came with the game.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Creatures with no racial HD would be 10+0, which means DC10, common knowledge, which people without ranks can still meet, and people with at least 10 can meet with a take 10. So everyone would know about humans unless they had a negative int modifier.Yeah, but that's not nearly as funny.

(Also, half of everybody does have a negative Int modifier, if 10 is average.)

[Crake]

Yeah, but that's not nearly as funny.

(Also, half of everybody does have a negative Int modifier, if 10 is average.)

Actually, 10-11 is average (10.5 specifically), and most people will have the commoner array, which is 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, so no negative modifier. Even people with the standard array, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, only have a 1/3 chance of having a negative int modifier.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: This thread has become a flaming mess. People, please avoid attacking or insulting others. Closed.