ECL Reassignment Thread: Inevitably Rejected (LA -0)

[Blue Jay]

Several attempts have been made to address the monsters that were deemed unplayable in Inevitability's LA-Assignment Project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive&p=21798987). As a person with a particular fondness for odd, underdog monsters, I would really like to see this supplementary project continue, so this is my attempt to get one of these going.

For those who aren't familiar with the methodologies involved, the details are available on Inevitability's thread(s). The most important point, for the purpose of this side project, is that many monsters were assigned an LA of -0. Monsters are given LA -0 if they're weaker then comparable standard-race PCs of the same level. If a player wants to play one of these monsters, they will likely need a little help from their DM to keep up with the other players.

The biggest issue these projects have faced is trying to figure out how to make up the difference. In a previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581676-The-LA-assignment-thread-0-Inevitably-rejected-Redux), Martixy (and others) decided to use a system of reducing racial Hit Dice, and I plan to continue where that previous thread left off, using the same basic methodology.

Methodology:

The basic way we'll be evaluating monsters in this thread is to examine a monster's abilities, and ask ourselves how many racial hit dice those abilities are worth. There are a number of ways to do this, and I don't think we need to all be exactly agreed on technique: I like to do a simple comparison of Monster HD vs class levels, but other prefers to consider the monster +1 level in a class. Other people will consider different characteristics to have different values. Feel free to "vote your conscious" on those matters. But in general, we're aiming for a middle-of-the-board power level. So, aim approximately for tier 3.

I'll use the second post in this thread as an archive. The archive will include all of the evaluations from martixy's previous thread, and I'll pick up where that thread left off.

[Blue Jay]

Monster name
Estimated LA
Estimated ECL
RHD Adjustment


Animated Object, Large (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20734406&postcount=45)
+0
3
-1


Animated Object, Huge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20734406&postcount=45)
+0
4
-4


Animated Object, Gargantuan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20734406&postcount=45)
+0
5
-11


Animated Object, Colossal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20734406&postcount=45)
+0
6
-25


Athach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20803341&postcount=69)
+0
4
-10


Belker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20871110&postcount=85)
+0
4
-10


Bugbear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20889732&postcount=96)
+1
2
-3


Chaos Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20942418&postcount=129)
+0
3
-5


Chuul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20968935&postcount=140)
+0
5
-6


Derro (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23860636&postcount=107)
+0
2
-1


Destrachan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23888587&postcount=111)
+0
5
-3


Dinosaur (Elasmosaur) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23934244&postcount=130)
+0
7
-3


Dinosaur (Megaraptor) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23934244&postcount=130)
+0
6
-2


Dinosaur (Triceratops) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23934244&postcount=130)
+0
7
-9


Dinosaur (Tyrannosaurus) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23934244&postcount=130)
+0
7
-11


Dire Bat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23946954&postcount=5)
+0
3
-1


Dire Bear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23946954&postcount=5)
+0
7
-5


Dire Boar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23946954&postcount=5)
+0
5
-2


Dire Lion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23946954&postcount=5)
+0
6
-2


Dire Shark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23946954&postcount=5)
+0
7
-11


Dire Tiger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23946954&postcount=5)
+0
7
-9


Dire Wolf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23946954&postcount=5)
+0
4
-2


Displacer Beast Pack Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23952540&postcount=7)
+0
8
-10


Dragons (All) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23978020&postcount=9) (special)
+0
HD = CR
(varies)


Elemental (Any), Small (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24047237&postcount=10) (not assigned LA -0)
+0 (+1 for air)
2
-0


Elemental (Any), Medium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24047237&postcount=10) (not assigned LA -0)
+0
4
-0


Elemental (Any), Large (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24047237&postcount=10)
+0
6
-2


Elemental (Any), Huge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24047237&postcount=10)
+0
7
-9


Elemental (Any), Greater (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24047237&postcount=10)
+0
8
-13


Elemental (Any), Elder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24047237&postcount=10)
+0
9
-15

[Blue Jay]

...reserved just in case...

[Blue Jay]

Reserved 3

[Blue Jay]

Okay, all monsters handled in the previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581676-The-LA-assignment-thread-0-Inevitably-rejected-Redux) have been loaded into the archive in post #2. Many of them did not get much discussion, so I feel like we can still field discussion on those.

Right now, we have dire animals coming up, and I suspect that those might also get only minimal discussion, so I'll just post a preliminary opinion here. My general strategy with bland, beatstick monsters will be to start with HD = CR, and adjust from there. Here are my initial assessments:

Dire Animals

Bat: 3 RHD (Good ability scores, Large size, decent natural attack, Fly speed and Blindsense)

Bear: 7 RHD (Maybe on par with Triceratops and Tyrannosaurus)

Boar: 5 RHD (Good ability scores, Large size, decent natural attack, Scent, Ferocity)

Lion: 6 RHD (Better than the boar, but not by a whole lot)

Shark: 7 RHD (Okay ability scores, Huge size, bite should be bigger than that --- it's a frickin' shark after all; and good senses)

Tiger: 7 RHD (On par with the Dire Bear, Triceratops, Tyrannosaurus)

Wolf: 4 RHD (Good ability scores, Large size, Trip, Scent, Track)

[Blue Jay]

Anyone have any comments on the monsters that have been rated already?

[Blue Jay]

Okay, how about the...

Displacer Beast Pack Lord

?

The standard displacer beast was assigned LA +0, for a total ECL of 6. The Pack Lord really doesn't have much more than the standard beast. Here's a summary of everything that changed:

12 extra HD
growth to Huge size, including the stat changes that go with it (+8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +3 natural armor and one die-size boost to natural attacks)
tentacles get an extra 5 feet of reach beyond what would be expected given the standard beast's stat block


Curiously, it looks like the Pack Lord wasn't even given the +1's to ability scores that are supposed to come at 8th, 12th and 16th levels, which is disappointing.

Looking at the standard displacer beast's stat block, it should get Huge size at 10 HD, so I guess that means the Pack Lord didn't get anything for its last 8 hit dice except for 8 more hit dice.

I feel like the extra boosts are worth more than a single extra hit die, but not two; so I'll vote conservatively for 8 RHD for the Displacer Beast Pack Lord.

[Blue Jay]

So, next up are the dragons, and this is going to be quite a bit of work. But hopefully, with them being such iconic monsters, we'll get some more feedback than the other monsters have gotten so far.

Black Dragons

Black dragons are one of the weaker dragons. Their breath weapon does acid damage, which optimizers seem to prefer over other energy types, but it's measured in d4's, and it lags well behind the leaders at every life stage.

I'm going to start with ECL = HD, and see if I think that fits for each life stage.

Wyrmling
CR 3. I can't help but compare this to the pseudodragon, because the similarities are quite remarkable: Tiny size, Fly 60 ft, similar natural armor and 3-vs-2 natural attacks (one of which has 5-ft reach). The Poison and However, the pseudodragon has Spell Resistance and Telepathy and some boons for stealth, which gives it the important advantages (scouting-related). So, I think 2 RHD is good for the black wyrmling.

Very Young
CR 4. I don't think this is worth 2 more hit dice than the wyrmling: a size boost, a couple small numerical boosts, +3 natural armor, and +2d4 to breath damage. Let's call it 3 RHD for the very young black dragon.

Young
CR 5. Medium size now, unlocking the 2 wings as weapons, +8 net stats, 9 natural armor and 6d4 breath damage. The flight maneuverability is lower now, but the speed is up, and there's still no special abilities. I think 4 RHD is pretty good for the young black dragon.

Juvenile
+10 net to stats, 12 natural armor, breath damage 8d4, and the first special ability, which is a pretty useful one: darkness 3/day. Let's call it 5 RHD for the juvenile black dragon.

Young Adult
Large size (adding tail slap, and 10-ft reach with the bite), +20 net to stats (with no penalties), +15 natural armor, and 10d4 breath damage. This is also where several of the dragon's interesting qualities finally start to kick in: Spell Resistance, Frightful Presence and sorcerer casting. This feels like the point where you're finally playing a dragon as a mighty beast. I'm going to call it 7 RHD for the young adult.

Adult
Similar to the previous one, except +26 net to stats, +18 natural armor, 12d4 breath damage and the one I'm sure you've all been waiting for: Corrupt Water. Right? Ha! Okay yeah: the extra caster levels are the only really interesting special ability here, even though it still only knows 1st-level spells. I'm only putting this one at 9 RHD for the adult black dragon.

Mature Adult
Huge size now. +38 stats, +21 natural armor, 14d4 breath damage, that odd "crush" special attack and a boost to your DR that's mostly obsolete anyway. Caster level 5, so you've got 2nd-level spells. Let's call it 11 RHD for the mature adult black dragon.

Old
This is a pretty small boost over the previous age category, but let's go ahead and call it +2 HD, just to keep up the pattern. 13 RHD for the old black dragon.

I'm lazy: let's just say +2 HD per age category from here, and call it good.

Very Old: 15 RHD

Ancient: 17 RHD

Wyrm: 19 RHD

Great Wyrm: 21 RHD

Do any of these sound problematic to anyone? I feel like the numbers (stat mods, areas of effect, natural armor, etc) are just so enormous that it's hard to really wrap my brain around it. And with dragon RHD giving almost maximum values for everything Hit Dice give, plus 6th-level sorcerer spells by 20th... I think I might rather err in the other direction. So, maybe I'd add a hit die to each life stage, just to be conservative.

[Blue Jay]

Dragons

Okay, well I guess it looks like there's pretty much zero interest in this project. I don't want to give it up though, so I'm just going to post a collection of 20-level progressions I made for dragons, and move on to the next group (elementals).

For these progressions, I took CR 20 dragons (or CR 21, if it has odd CRs), and converted them into 20-level monster classes. Each dragon starts at Medium size, and grows to either Huge or Gargantuan size (whichever size the CR20/21 version is). Dragons at a given CR are actually remarkably similar in most of their basic numerical stats: the most noticeable differences are their breath weapons and type-specific special abilities. Beyond that, they differ by a few points of Str or Int, and their natural armor varies a fair bit; but it's mostly quite repetitive.

All dragons begin at Medium size, and have standard Dragon type features & traits, plus their subtypes and energy immunities. I basically built it so they accumulated all their classic dragon stuff (breath weapon, natural attacks, flight, etc) early, while their spellcasting really doesn't start advancing until later, but it advances at nearly every level after 10th: I figured that that would be a good way to let you feel like you're playing an actual dragon from the start, but also let you gain new interesting abilities (instead of just numerical bonuses) at all levels.

Note that I made at least one mistake that I don't want to bother fixing now: I for some reason thought Frightful Presence was a flat 200-ft radius for all dragons, instead of 30 ft x (age category), so that's not properly mapped against each dragon's specific value at CR 20/21. And I also fudged a couple minor bits here and there, like I think there was one that I gave Gargantuan size even though it didn't quite reach that by CR 20, and I think another fell too far behind in caster level. I don't really remember.

Anyway, here they are:

Chromatic Dragons:

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1.00 +2.50 +2.50 +2.50 Bite, Breath Weapon (2+HD)d4 (40-ft line), Water Breathing, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
2 +2.00 +3.00 +3.00 +3.00 2 Claws, darkness 1/day, DR (HD)/magic, SR (HD+6)/magic, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
3 +3.00 +3.50 +3.50 +3.50 Blindsense 30 ft, CL 1st, Fly 60 ft (avg), Speed +10 ft, Swim +10 ft, +2 Con, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
4 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 Frightful Presence (30 ft, shaken 1d4 rds), 2 Wings, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
5 +5.00 +4.50 +4.50 +4.50 Breath (60-ft line), CL 2nd, Large, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
6 +6.00 +5.00 +5.00 +5.00 Bite (extra reach), Keen Senses, plant growth 1/day, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
7 +7.00 +5.50 +5.50 +5.50 CL 3rd, Frightful (60 ft, frighten 2d4 rds), +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
8 +8.00 +6.00 +6.00 +6.00 Fly 90 ft, insect plague 1/day, Tail Slap, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 natural armor
9 +9.00 +6.50 +6.50 +6.50 CL 4th, darkness 3/day, Speed +10 ft, Swim +10 ft, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
10 +10.00 +7.00 +7.00 +7.00 Blindsense 60 ft, Breath (80-ft line), Frightful (90 ft, 2d6 rds), +2 Con, +2 natural armor
11 +11.00 +7.50 +7.50 +7.50 CL 5th, Crush, Huge, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
12 +12.00 +8.00 +8.00 +8.00 CL 6th, insect plague 3/day, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
13 +13.00 +8.50 +8.50 +8.50 Fly 120 ft (poor), Frightful (120 ft, panic 3d6 rds), +2 Con, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
14 +14.00 +9.00 +9.00 +9.00 CL 7th, Speed +10 ft, Swim +10 ft, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
15 +15.00 +9.50 +9.50 +9.50 Breath (100-ft line), CL 8th, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
16 +16.00 +10.00 +10.00 +10.00 CL 9th, Frightful (150 ft, 4d6 rds), +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
17 +17.00 +10.50 +10.50 +10.50 CL 10th, Tail Sweep, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
18 +18.00 +11.00 +11.00 +11.00 CL 11th, Fly 150 ft, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
19 +19.00 +11.50 +11.50 +11.50 CL 12th, Gargantuan, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
20 +20.00 +12.00 +12.00 +12.00 Breath (120-ft line), CL 13th, Fly 200 ft, Frightful (200 ft), +2 Wis, +2 natural armor



Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1.00 +2.50 +2.50 +2.50 Bite, Breath Weapon *HD)d8 (40-ft line), Sound Imitation, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
2 +2.00 +3.00 +3.00 +3.00 2 Claws, Create/Destroy Water, DR (HD, max 15)/magic, SR (HD+7), +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 natural armor
3 +3.00 +3.50 +3.50 +3.50 Blindsense 30 ft, CL 1st, Fly 60 ft (avg), ventriloquism 1/day, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
4 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 Frightful Presence (30 ft, shaken 1d4 rds), 2 Wings, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
5 +5.00 +4.50 +4.50 +4.50 Breath (60-ft line), CL 2nd, Large, +2 Con, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
6 +6.00 +5.00 +5.00 +5.00 Bite (extra reach), Keen Senses, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
7 +7.00 +5.50 +5.50 +5.50 Burrow 10 ft, CL 3rd, Frightful (60 ft, frighten 2d4 rds), +2 Str, +2 natural armor
8 +8.00 +6.00 +6.00 +6.00 Fly 90 ft, hallucinatory terrain 1/day, Tail Slap, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
9 +9.00 +6.50 +6.50 +6.50 CL 4th, ventriloquism 3/day, +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 natural armor
10 +10.00 +7.00 +7.00 +7.00 Blindsense 60 ft, Breath (80-ft line), Frightful (90 ft, 2d6 rds), +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
11 +11.00 +7.50 +7.50 +7.50 CL 5th, Crush, Huge, Speed +10 ft, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
12 +12.00 +8.00 +8.00 +8.00 Burrow 20 ft, CL 6th, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
13 +13.00 +8.50 +8.50 +8.50 Fly 120 ft, Frightful (120 ft, panic 3d6 rds), +2 Con, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
14 +14.00 +9.00 +9.00 +9.00 CL 7th, veil 1/day, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
15 +15.00 +9.50 +9.50 +9.50 Breath (100-ft line), CL 8th, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
16 +16.00 +10.00 +10.00 +10.00 CL 9th, Frightful (150 ft, 4d6 rds), +2 Str, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
17 +17.00 +10.50 +10.50 +10.50 CL 10th, Tail Sweep, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
18 +18.00 +11.00 +11.00 +11.00 CL 11th, Fly 150 ft, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
19 +19.00 +11.50 +11.50 +11.50 CL 12th, Gargantuan, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
20 +20.00 +12.00 +12.00 +12.00 Breath (120-ft line), CL 13th, Fly 200 ft, Frightful (200 ft), +2 Wis, +2 natural armor



Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1.00 +2.50 +2.50 +2.50 Bite, Breath Weapon (HD)d6 (20-ft cone), Water Breathing, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
2 +2.00 +3.00 +3.00 +3.00 2 Claws, DR (HD, max 15)/magic, SR (7+HD), suggestion 1/day, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
3 +3.00 +3.50 +3.50 +3.50 Blindsense 30 ft, CL 1st, Fly 60 ft (avg), +2 Con, +2 natural armor
4 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 Frightful Presence (30 ft, shaken 1d4 rds), 2 Wings, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
5 +5.00 +4.50 +4.50 +4.50 Breath (30-ft cone), CL 2nd, Large, +2 Con, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
6 +6.00 +5.00 +5.00 +5.00 Bite (extra reach), Keen Senses, plant growth 1/day, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
7 +7.00 +5.50 +5.50 +5.50 CL 3rd, Frightful (60 ft, frighten 2d4 rds), +2 Str, +2 natural armor
8 +8.00 +6.00 +6.00 +6.00 dominate person 1/day, Fly 90 ft, Tail Slap, +2 Con, +2 Wis, 1 natural armor
9 +9.00 +6.50 +6.50 +6.50 CL 4th, suggestion 3/day, +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 natural armor
10 +10.00 +7.00 +7.00 +7.00 Blindsense 60 ft, Breath (40-ft cone), Frightful (90 ft, 2d6 rds), +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
11 +11.00 +7.50 +7.50 +7.50 CL 5th, Crush, Huge, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
12 +12.00 +8.00 +8.00 +8.00 CL 6th, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
13 +13.00 +8.50 +8.50 +8.50 Fly 120 ft (poor), Frightful (120 ft, panic 3d6 rds), +2 Con, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
14 +14.00 +9.00 +9.00 +9.00 CL 7th, dominate person 3/day, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
15 +15.00 +9.50 +9.50 +9.50 Breath (50-ft cone), CL 8th, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
16 +16.00 +10.00 +10.00 +10.00 CL 9th, Frightful (150 ft, 4d6 rds), +2 Str, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
17 +17.00 +10.50 +10.50 +10.50 CL 10th, Tail Sweep, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
18 +18.00 +11.00 +11.00 +11.00 CL 11th, Fly 150 ft, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
19 +19.00 +11.50 +11.50 +11.50 CL 12th, Gargantuan, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
20 +20.00 +12.00 +12.00 +12.00 Breath (60-ft cone), CL 13th, Fly 200 ft (clumsy), Frightful (200 ft), +2 Wis, +2 natural armor



Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1.00 +2.50 +2.50 +2.50 Bite, Breath Weapon 1d10 (20-ft cone), Locate Object 1/day, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
2 +2.00 +3.00 +3.00 +3.00 2 Claws, DR (HD/2)/magic, SR (4+HD), suggestion 1/day, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
3 +3.00 +3.50 +3.50 +3.50 Blindsense 30 ft, Breath 2d10, CL 1st, Fly 60 ft (avg), Locate Object 2/day, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
4 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 Frightful Presence (30 ft, shaken 1d4 rds), 2 Wings, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
5 +5.00 +4.50 +4.50 +4.50 Breath 3d10 (30-ft cone), CL 2nd, Large, Locat Object 3/day, +2 Con, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
6 +6.00 +5.00 +5.00 +5.00 Bite (extra reach), Keen Senses, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
7 +7.00 +5.50 +5.50 +5.50 Breath 4d10, Frightful (60 ft, frighten 2d4 rds), CL 3rd, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
8 +8.00 +6.00 +6.00 +6.00 Fly 90 ft, Locate Object 4/day, Tail Slap, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
9 +9.00 +6.50 +6.50 +6.50 Breath (HD-4)d10, CL 4th, suggestion 3/day, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
10 +10.00 +7.00 +7.00 +7.00 Blindsense 60 ft, Breath (40-ft cone), Frightful (90 ft, 2d6 rds), +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
11 +11.00 +7.50 +7.50 +7.50 CL 5th, Crush, Huge, Locate Object 5/day, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
12 +12.00 +8.00 +8.00 +8.00 CL 6th, find the path 1/day, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
13 +13.00 +8.50 +8.50 +8.50 Fly 120 ft (poor), Frightful (120 ft, panic 3d6 rds), +2 Con, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
14 +14.00 +9.00 +9.00 +9.00 CL 7th, Locate Object 6/day, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
15 +15.00 +9.50 +9.50 +9.50 Breath (50-ft cone), CL 8th, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
16 +16.00 +10.00 +10.00 +10.00 CL 9th, Frightful (150 ft, 4d6 rds), +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
17 +17.00 +10.50 +10.50 +10.50 CL 10th, Locate Object 7/day, Tail Sweep, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
18 +18.00 +11.00 +11.00 +11.00 CL 11th, Fly 150 ft, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
19 +19.00 +11.50 +11.50 +11.50 CL 12th, Gargantuan, Locate Object 8/day, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
20 +20.00 +12.00 +12.00 +12.00 Breath (60-ft cone), CL 13th, Fly 200 ft (clumsy), Frightful (200 ft), +2 Wis, +2 natural armor



Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1.00 +2.50 +2.50 +2.50 Bite, Breath Weapon 1d6 (20-ft cone), gust of wind 1/day, Icewalking, +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
2 +2.00 +3.00 +3.00 +3.00 2 Claws, DR (HD)/magic, fog cloud 1/day, SR (7+HD), +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
3 +3.00 +3.50 +3.50 +3.50 Blindsense 60 ft, Breath 2d6, CL 1st, Fly 60 ft (avg), Speed +10 ft, Swim +10 ft, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
4 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 Frightful Presence (30 ft, shaken 1d4 rds), 2 Wings, +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 natural armor
5 +5.00 +4.50 +4.50 +4.50 Breath 3d6 (30-ft cone), CL 2nd, Freezing Fog 1/day, Large, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
6 +6.00 +5.00 +5.00 +5.00 Bite (extra reach), Burrow 10 ft, Keen Senses, wall of ice 1/day, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
7 +7.00 +5.50 +5.50 +5.50 Breath 4d6, CL 3rd, Frightful (60 ft, frighten 2d4 rds), +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
8 +8.00 +6.00 +6.00 +6.00 Fly 90 ft, fog cloud 3/day, gust of wind 3/day, Tail Slap, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
9 +9.00 +6.50 +6.50 +6.50 Breath 5d6, CL 4th, Speed +10 ft, Swim +10 ft, +2 Con, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
10 +10.00 +7.00 +7.00 +7.00 Breath (40-ft cone), Frightful (90 ft, 2d6 rds), Blindsense 60 ft, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
11 +11.00 +7.50 +7.50 +7.50 Breath 6d6, CL 5th, Crush, Freezing Fog 2/day, Huge, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
12 +12.00 +8.00 +8.00 +8.00 Burrow 20 ft, CL 6th, control weather 1/day, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
13 +13.00 +8.50 +8.50 +8.50 Breath 7d6, Fly 120 ft (poor), Frightful (120 ft, panic 3d6 rds), +2 Str, +2 natural armor
14 +14.00 +9.00 +9.00 +9.00 CL 7th, Speed +10 ft, Swim +10 ft, wall of ice 3/day, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
15 +15.00 +9.50 +9.50 +9.50 Breath 8d6 (50-ft cone), CL 8th, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
16 +16.00 +10.00 +10.00 +10.00 Burrow 30 ft, CL 9th, Frightful (150 ft, 4d6 rds), +2 Str, +2 natural armor
17 +17.00 +10.50 +10.50 +10.50 Breath 9d6, CL 10th, Freezing Fog 3/day, Tail Sweep, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
18 +18.00 +11.00 +11.00 +11.00 Breath 10d6, CL 11th, Fly 150 ft, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
19 +19.00 +11.50 +11.50 +11.50 Breath 11d6, CL 12th, Gargantuan, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
20 +20.00 +12.00 +12.00 +12.00 Breath 12d6 (60-ft cone), CL 12th, Fly 200 ft (clumsy), Frightful (200 ft), +2 Con, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor


Metallic Dragons:

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1.00 +2.50 +2.50 +2.50 Bite, Breath Weapon 1d6 (40-ft line), speak with animals, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
2 +2.00 +3.00 +3.00 +3.00 2 Claws, CL 1st, DR (HD, max 15)/magic, SR (7+HD), +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
3 +3.00 +3.50 +3.50 +3.50 Blindsense 60 ft, Breath 2d6, Fly 60 ft, endure elements 1/day, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
4 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 Sleep Breath (20-ft cone), CL 2nd, 2 Wings, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
5 +5.00 +4.50 +4.50 +4.50 Breath 3d6, Frightful Presence (20 ft, shaken 1d4 rds), Large, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
6 +6.00 +5.00 +5.00 +5.00 Bite (extra reach), CL 3rd, Keen Senses, +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 natural armor
7 +7.00 +5.50 +5.50 +5.50 Breath 4d6 (60-ft line), suggestion 1/day, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
8 +8.00 +6.00 +6.00 +6.00 Fly 90 ft, Frightful (60 ft, frighten 2d4 rds), CL 4th, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
9 +9.00 +6.50 +6.50 +6.50 Breath 5d6, control winds 1/day, Sleep Breath (30-ft cone), +2 Con, +2 natural armor
10 +10.00 +7.00 +7.00 +7.00 Blindsense 60 ft, CL 5th, endure elements 3/day, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
11 +11.00 +7.50 +7.50 +7.50 Breath 6d6, CL 6th, Frightful (90 ft, 2d6 rds), +2 Con, +2 natural armor
12 +12.00 +8.00 +8.00 +8.00 CL 7th, Crush, Huge, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
13 +13.00 +8.50 +8.50 +8.50 Breath 7d6 (80-ft line), CL 8th, Fly 120 ft (poor), +2 Int, +2 natural armor
14 +14.00 +9.00 +9.00 +9.00 CL 9th, Frightful (120 ft, panic 3d6 rds), +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 natural armor
15 +15.00 +9.50 +9.50 +9.50 Breath 8d6, CL 10th, Sleep Breath (40-ft cone), +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
16 +16.00 +10.00 +10.00 +10.00 CL 11th, control weather 1/day, Tail Sweep, +2 Str, +1 natural armor
17 +17.00 +10.50 +10.50 +10.50 Breath 9d6, CL 12th, Frightful (150 ft, 4d6 rds), +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
18 +18.00 +11.00 +11.00 +11.00 CL 13th, Fly 150 ft, Tail Sweep, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
19 +19.00 +11.50 +11.50 +11.50 Breath 10d6 (100-ft line), CL 14th, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
20 +20.00 +12.00 +12.00 +12.00 CL 15th, Sleep Breath (50-ft cone), Frightful (200 ft), +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor



Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1.00 +2.50 +2.50 +2.50 Alternate Form (animal), Bite, Breath 1d6 (40-ft line), speak with animals, Water Breathing, +2 Str, +3 natural armor
2 +2.00 +3.00 +3.00 +3.00 2 Claws, DR (HD, max 15)/magic, SR (6+HD), +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
3 +3.00 +3.50 +3.50 +3.50 Blindsense 30 ft, Breath 2d6, CL 1st, Fly 60 ft (avg), +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
4 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 fog cloud 1/day, Repulsion Breath (20-ft cone), 2 Wings, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
5 +5.00 +4.50 +4.50 +4.50 Breath 3d6, CL 2nd, Frightful Presence (30 ft, shaken 1d4 rds), Large, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
6 +6.00 +5.00 +5.00 +5.00 Alternate Form (humanoid), Bite (extra reach), Breath (HD-2)d6, Keen Senses, +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 natural armor
7 +7.00 +5.50 +5.50 +5.50 Breath (60-ft line), CL 3rd, create food & water 1/day, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
8 +8.00 +6.00 +6.00 +6.00 fog cloud 3/day, Frightful (60 ft, frighten 2d4 rds), +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
9 +9.00 +6.50 +6.50 +6.50 CL 4th, detect thoughts 1/day, Repulsion Breath (30-ft cone), +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
10 +10.00 +7.00 +7.00 +7.00 Blindsense 60 ft, Tail Slap, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
11 +11.00 +7.50 +7.50 +7.50 CL 5th, create food & water 3/day, Frightful (90 ft, 2d6 rds), +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
12 +12.00 +8.00 +8.00 +8.00 CL 6th, Crush, Huge, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
13 +13.00 +8.50 +8.50 +8.50 Breath (80-ft line), Fly 120 ft (poor), +2 Int, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
14 +14.00 +9.00 +9.00 +9.00 CL 7th, Frightful (120 ft, panic 3d6 rds), +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
15 +15.00 +9.50 +9.50 +9.50 CL 8th, Repulsion Breath (40-ft cone), +2 Con, +2 natural armor
16 +16.00 +10.00 +10.00 +10.00 CL 9th, detect thoughts 3/day, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
17 +17.00 +10.50 +10.50 +10.50 CL 10th, Frightful (150 ft, 4d6 rds), +2 Int, +2 natural armor
18 +18.00 +11.00 +11.00 +11.00 CL 11th, Fly 150 ft, Tail Sweep, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
19 +19.00 +11.50 +11.50 +11.50 Breath (100-ft line), CL 12th, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
20 +20.00 +12.00 +12.00 +12.00 CL 13th, Frightful (200 ft), Repulsion Breath (50-ft cone), +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor



Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1.00 +2.50 +2.50 +2.50 Bite, Breath 1d4 (40-ft line), Spider Climb, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
2 +2.00 +3.00 +3.00 +3.00 2 Claws, DR (HD, max 15)/magic, SR (6+HD), +2 Con, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
3 +3.00 +3.50 +3.50 +3.50 Blindsense 30 ft, Breath 2d4, CL 1st, Fly 60 ft, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
4 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 Slow Breath (20-ft cone), stone shape 1/day, 2 Wings, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
5 +5.00 +4.50 +4.50 +4.50 Breath 3d4, CL 2, Frightful Presence (30 ft, shaken 1d4 rds), Large, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
6 +6.00 +5.00 +5.00 +5.00 Bite (reach), Breath (HD-2)d4, Keen Senses, +2 Int, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
7 +7.00 +5.50 +5.50 +5.50 Breath (30-ft cone), CL 3rd, +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 natural armor
8 +8.00 +6.00 +6.00 +6.00 Fly 90 ft, Frightful (60 ft, frighten 2d4 rds), +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
9 +9.00 +6.50 +6.50 +6.50 CL 4th, Slow Breath (30-ft cone), +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
10 +10.00 +7.00 +7.00 +7.00 Blindsense 60 ft, Tail Slap, trasmute rock to mud 1/day, +2 Con, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
11 +11.00 +7.50 +7.50 +7.50 CL 5th, Frightful (90 ft, 2d6 rds), stone shape 2/day, +2 Str, +2 natural armor
12 +12.00 +8.00 +8.00 +8.00 CL 6th, Crush, Huge, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
13 +13.00 +8.50 +8.50 +8.50 Breath (80-ft line), Fly 120 ft (poor), +2 Str, +1 natural armor
14 +14.00 +9.00 +9.00 +9.00 CL 7th, Frightful (120 ft, panic 3d6 rds), +2 Con, +2 natural amror
15 +15.00 +9.50 +9.50 +9.50 CL 8th, Slow Breath (40-ft cone), +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
16 +16.00 +10.00 +10.00 +10.00 CL 9th, wall of stone 1/day, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
17 +17.00 +10.50 +10.50 +10.50 CL 10th, Frightful (150 ft, 4d6 rds), +2 Str, +2 natural armor
18 +18.00 +11.00 +11.00 +11.00 CL 11th, Fly 150 ft, Tail Sweep, +2 Con, +2 natural amror
19 +19.00 +11.50 +11.50 +11.50 Breath (100-ft line), CL 12th, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
20 +20.00 +12.00 +12.00 +12.00 CL 13th, Frightful (200 ft), Slow Breath (50-ft cone), +2 Wis, +2 natural armor



Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1.00 +2.50 +2.50 +2.50 Alternate Form (animal), Bite, Breath Weapon 1d10 (20-ft cone), Water Breathing, +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
2 +2.00 +3.00 +3.00 +3.00 bless 1/day, 2 Claws, DR (HD/2)/magic, Luck Bonus, SR (7+HD), +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 natural armor
3 +3.00 +3.50 +3.50 +3.50 Blindsense 30 ft, Breath 2d10, CL 1st, Fly 60 ft (avg), +2 Con, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
4 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 Detect Gems 1/day, Weakening Breath (20-ft cone), 2 Wings, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
5 +5.00 +4.50 +4.50 +4.50 Breath 3d10, CL 2nd, Frightful Presence (30 ft, shaken 1d4 rds), Large, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
6 +6.00 +5.00 +5.00 +5.00 Alternate Form (humanoid), Bite (extra reach), Keen Senses, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
7 +7.00 +5.50 +5.50 +5.50 bless 3/day, Breath 4d10 (30-ft cone), CL 3rd, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
8 +8.00 +6.00 +6.00 +6.00 CL 4th, Fly 100 ft, Frightful (60 ft, frighten 2d4 rds), +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
9 +9.00 +6.50 +6.50 +6.50 Breath (HD-4)d10, Tail Slap, Weakening (30-ft cone), +2 Con, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
10 +10.00 +7.00 +7.00 +7.00 Blindsense 60 ft, CL 5th, Detect Gems 2/day, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
11 +11.00 +7.50 +7.50 +7.50 Crush, Frightful (90 ft, 2d6 rds), Huge, +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
12 +12.00 +8.00 +8.00 +8.00 Cl 6th, geas/quest 1/day, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
13 +13.00 +8.50 +8.50 +8.50 Breath (40-ft cone), Fly 175 ft (poor), +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
14 +14.00 +9.00 +9.00 +9.00 CL 7th, Frightful (120 ft, panic 3d6 rds), +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
15 +15.00 +9.50 +9.50 +9.50 CL 8th, Weakening (40-ft cone), sunburst 1/day, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
16 +16.00 +10.00 +10.00 +10.00 CL 9th, Detect Gems 3/day, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
17 +17.00 +10.50 +10.50 +10.50 CL 10th, Frightful (150 ft, 4d6 rds), +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 natural armor
18 +18.00 +11.00 +11.00 +11.00 CL 11th, Fly 200 ft, Tail Sweep, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
19 +19.00 +11.50 +11.50 +11.50 Breath (50-ft cone), CL 12th, Gargantuan, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
20 +20.00 +12.00 +12.00 +12.00 CL 13th, Fly 250 ft (clumsy), Frightful (200 ft), Weakening (50-ft cone), +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor



Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1.00 +2.50 +2.50 +2.50 Alternate Form (animal), Bite, Breath 1d8 (20-ft cone), Cloudwalking, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
2 +2.00 +3.00 +3.00 +3.00 2 Claws, DR (HD, max 15)/magic, fog cloud 1/day, SR (7+HD), +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
3 +3.00 +3.50 +3.50 +3.50 Blindsense 30 ft, Breath 2d8, CL 1st, Fly 60 ft (avg), +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
4 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 +4.00 feather fall 1/day, Paralysis Breath (20-ft cone), 2 Wings, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
5 +5.00 +4.50 +4.50 +4.50 Breath 3d8, CL 2nd, Frightful Presence (30 ft, shaken 1d4 rds), Large, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 natural armor
6 +6.00 +5.00 +5.00 +5.00 Alternate Form (humanoid), Bite (extra reach), Breath (HD-2)d8, Keen Senses, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
7 +7.00 +5.50 +5.50 +5.50 Breath (30-ft cone), CL 3rd, fog cloud 3/day, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
8 +8.00 +6.00 +6.00 +6.00 Fly 90 ft, Frightful (60 ft, frighten 2d4 rds), +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor
9 +9.00 +6.50 +6.50 +6.50 CL 4th, control winds 1/day, Paralysis (30-ft cone), +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
10 +10.00 +7.00 +7.00 +7.00 Blindsense 60 ft, feather fall 2/day, Tail Slap, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
11 +11.00 +7.50 +7.50 +7.50 CL 5th, Frightful (90 ft, 2d6 rds), +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 natural armor
12 +12.00 +8.00 +8.00 +8.00 CL 6th, Crush, Huge, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
13 +13.00 +8.50 +8.50 +8.50 Breath (40-ft cone), Fly 120 ft (poor), +2 Cha, +2 natural armor
14 +14.00 +9.00 +9.00 +9.00 CL 7th, Frightful (120 ft, panic 3d6 rds), +2 Str, +2 Int, +2 natural armor
15 +15.00 +9.50 +9.50 +9.50 CL 8th, Paralysis (40-ft cone),+2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 natural armor
16 +16.00 +10.00 +10.00 +10.00 CL 9th, control winds 3/day, +2 Str, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
17 +17.00 +10.50 +10.50 +10.50 CL 10th, Frightful (150 ft, 4d6 rds), +2 Int, +2 natural armor
18 +18.00 +11.00 +11.00 +11.00 CL 11th, Fly 150 ft, Tail Sweep, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +1 natural armor
19 +19.00 +11.50 +11.50 +11.50 Breath (50-ft cone), CL 12th, control weather 1/day, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, +2 natural amor
20 +20.00 +12.00 +12.00 +12.00 CL 13th, Paralysis (50-ft cone), Frightful (200 ft), +2 Str, +2 Int, +1 natural armor


They seem kind of overpowered to me, but does anybody else have comments on this?

[Blue Jay]

I guess I'll just keep pressing on, and if nobody else wants to contribute, I'll just consider it a personal project.

Okay, I'm a big fan of elementals, but for thematic reasons, not mechanical reasons. It would be really nice if they actually... did more.

The first of the elementals are the air elementals. The lower-level air elementals are quite nice, offering a really good Fly speed and a couple free feats, alongside a Dex boost, but like all elementals, the only new things they really get between 2 HD and 24 HD are size increases, a second Slam, and more hit dice. So, once again, we're looking at reducing HD bloat.

Small

The Small air elemental was given LA +1 in the original thread, so we're starting at ECL 3.

Medium

The Medium air elemental was given LA +0, so it stays at 4 HD.

Large

Compared to the Medium air elemental, you're getting a size increase (with reach), +2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int (still a net -4 deficit), +1 natural armor, a second Slam attack and DR 5/-.

To me, that's a lot to give for 1 HD, but it's not a particular exciting deal for 2 HD. But I think I'll continue my conservative voting pattern and go for 6 RHD for the Large air elemental.

Huge

Another size increase, along with +4 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con.

There's some odd sense of symmetry in my mind that wants to say that there should be 2 HD between Large and Huge, but that does make for 2 rather boring levels. +10 net to stats is a lot to gain in just one level, but charging 2 HD for Large and 2 HD for Huge is probably too much, so I'm splitting the difference and saying the two together are worth 3 HD. So, I'm assigning 7 RHD for the Huge air elemental.

Greater

"Greater" and "Elder" elementals just get some more numbers relative to the regular ol' Huge elementals. In this case, +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Int, and +4 natural armor.

I think it's relatively easy to say this is worth only 1 more HD, so 8 RHD for the Greater air elemental.

Elder

Again, only +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Int (removing your initial racial Int penalty). Let's call it 9 RHD for the Elder air elemental.

-----

And I suspect the other three elementals will fall into pretty much the same pattern.

[Blue Jay]

So, I already did the Air Elementals in my previous post, with the following HD progression:

Small: 2 HD
Medium 4 HD
Large: 6 HD
Huge: 7 HD
Greater: 8 HD
Elder: 9 HD

((Note: this doesn't include the LA that some stages were assigned.))

I don't see any real reason why that basic HD progression shouldn't fit the other elementals. Here are some notes for each specific kind, though:

Earth Elementals

Earth Glide is the best thing about Earth Elementals: bypassing walls, automatic stealth, etc. Unlike the other elementals, they don't get much in terms of special attacks: just a one-category size increase to the Slam attacks, and they can Bull Rush without provoking AoOs. Plus, Earth Mastery is a really reliable bonus on attack rolls. Bigger Str and Con, plus higher natural armor than the other elementals.

But, overall, I feel like the Air Elemental's progression is more or less suitable for the earth elemental.

Fire Elementals

The Fire Elemental has Burn as a special attack, and that technically means it has the highest damage output among all the higher-level elementals. Plus, two useful bonus feats. But, fire damage is resisted by a significant minority of monsters, so damage output will be regularly lower than advertised. Plus, it doesn't really get a special movement mode, just some land-speed boosts; and it's vulnerable to cold damage. Plus, while the other elementals eventually lose their Intelligence penalty, the fire elementals retains a -4 to Intelligence all they way through the Elder stage.

I'll probably keep the same progression for this one too.

Water Elementals

Water elementals are easily dominant front-line combatants in aquatic campaigns, with Water Mastery and a really good Swim speed. Away from the water though, they have to take a -4 penalty to attacks and damage, and the only special ability they have is Drench, which puts out fires, but doesn't translate into anything even as useful as Resistance to Fire.

It's probably still fine with the same HD progression as the others.

-----

Anyone else have opinions on these?

[Lans]

Have you thought about doing the -0 rankings as they come up from the other thread? It might get more traffic over here