Fiends and the Negative Energy Plane

[Greywander]

The idea that I get from the cosmology presented in the PHB is that the Positive Energy Plane surrounds or contains the Upper Planes while the Negative Energy Plane surrounds or contains the Lower Planes. However, this implies to me that fiends, the primary denizens of the Lower Planes, are probably connected to Negative Energy in the same way that celestials are to Positive Energy. If so, this would mean that negative energy would heal fiends instead of harming them, making them sort of like... undead?

I know 5e reinvents some of these concepts, so they're not the same as they may have been in past editions, and even then my knowledge of previous editions is a little hazy. What little I do understand, though, is that positive energy heals living creatures (but even so, the Positive Energy Plane will overload such creatures, resulting in a swift death) and damages undead, while negative energy has the opposite effect. As such, it would seem more logical for undead, rather than fiends, to inhabit the Lower Planes that are connected to the Negative Energy Plane, unless fiends happen to also share the same traits as undead in regards to negative energy.

So... are fiends actually a special kind of "undead" in that they run on negative energy instead of positive energy? Or are positive and negative energy even a thing anymore? What about the Planes of Positive and Negative Energy?

[hamishspence]

I'm pretty sure negative energy spells can still harm fiends.

In Dragon Magazine in 3.5 (so may not be applicable to 5e fluff), it stated that a Nightshade is what you get when a fiend is killed with negative energy and left to marinade in it for a long time. The example given was opening a gate to the Negative Energy plane and driving the fiend through the gate.

[Maan]

In the cosmology I'm building for my setting, Undead are actually going to be sustained by negative energy as Fiends do.
Difference will be that Undead were once living being, while Fiends are literally made of negative energy.

Though I'm curious as to why positive/negative energy no longer work that way, where a healing spell would harm an Undead and some Inflict Wounds would heal them... it does make sense, after all.

[Millstone85]

The only thing that suggests a connection between the Lower Planes and the Negative Plane is the illustration on page 303 of the PHB.

By the same token, one could see a connection between the Plane of Fire and the lawful evil planes, which admittedly would be very thematic, or between the Shadowfell and the planes of Fire and Earth.

Still, no such connections are stated anywhere in 5e.

Also, not all undead are immune, or even resistant, to necrotic damage.

[Malifice]

The idea that I get from the cosmology presented in the PHB is that the Positive Energy Plane surrounds or contains the Upper Planes while the Negative Energy Plane surrounds or contains the Lower Planes. However, this implies to me that fiends, the primary denizens of the Lower Planes, are probably connected to Negative Energy in the same way that celestials are to Positive Energy. If so, this would mean that negative energy would heal fiends instead of harming them, making them sort of like... undead?

I know 5e reinvents some of these concepts, so they're not the same as they may have been in past editions, and even then my knowledge of previous editions is a little hazy. What little I do understand, though, is that positive energy heals living creatures (but even so, the Positive Energy Plane will overload such creatures, resulting in a swift death) and damages undead, while negative energy has the opposite effect. As such, it would seem more logical for undead, rather than fiends, to inhabit the Lower Planes that are connected to the Negative Energy Plane, unless fiends happen to also share the same traits as undead in regards to negative energy.

So... are fiends actually a special kind of "undead" in that they run on negative energy instead of positive energy? Or are positive and negative energy even a thing anymore? What about the Planes of Positive and Negative Energy?

Negative energy = evil. Its the energy of 'nothing' that seeks to destroy life and end existence.

It still harms Fiends (who are healed by positive energy, seeing as they're alive).

[Greywander]

The only thing that suggests a connection between the Lower Planes and the Negative Plane is the illustration on page 303 of the PHB.
Okay, but is that illustration wrong or misleading? What is it actually depicting? What it suggests is that the Negative Energy Plane is adjacent to all of the Lower Planes, and thus one could imagine that portals between the Lower Planes and the Negative Energy Plane would exist.


Also, not all undead are immune, or even resistant, to necrotic damage.
And no creatures in the MM are immune to radiant damage. I'm fairly certain that radiant damage isn't the same as positive energy, nor is necrotic damage the same as negative energy. Common skeletons and zombies are neither immune nor resistance to necrotic damage, and even the lich is only resistant. It's not because they're undead, it's because they're powerful monsters that have more resistances and immunities.


Negative energy = evil. Its the energy of 'nothing' that seeks to destroy life and end existence.

It still harms Fiends (who are healed by positive energy, seeing as they're alive).
Fiends are, in a sense, the manifestation of Evil as an alignment. It's not just that they tend to be evil, it's that they are pretty much Evil given physical form, much as celestials are Good. The extent of their connection to Evil (or Good, for celestials) is open for debate, but I can't see negative energy being the energy of Evil if it still harms fiends.

Positive energy is Life, negative energy is Death. It seems like there's some sort of alliance between Life and Good, but Evil and Death are still a bit at odds with one another. From this perspective, I kind of don't understand why the Lower Planes haven't been conquered by powerful undead yet, displacing fiends entirely. With potentially quick access to the Negative Energy Plane, it seems like a strong lich lord could sustain an undead army almost indefinitely and eventually grind the fiends down.

But maybe it's not so easy to access either the Positive or Negative Energy Planes. It just seems odd to me that there appears to be some association between the Upper Planes and the Positive Energy Plane as well as between the Lower Planes and the Negative Energy Plane, yet the denizens of both are harmed by negative energy and healed by positive energy. Seems like the fiends got a raw deal on that one.

[Millstone85]

Okay, but is that illustration wrong or misleading?Misleading for sure.

As I gather it from the PHB and the DMG, the 5e Great Wheel looks more like this:




Positive Plane (or Negative)



Astral-linked wheel



Celestia
Bytopia
Elysium
Beastlands
Arborea


Arcadia



Ysgard


Mechanus

Outlands

Limbo


Acheron



Pandemonium


Nine Hells
Gehenna
Hades
Carceri
Abyss


Ethereal-linked wheel



Air

Ice

Water



Feywild





Ash

Material

Ooze





Shadowfell



Fire

Magma

Earth




Negative Plane (or Positive)




I'm fairly certain that radiant damage isn't the same as positive energy, nor is necrotic damage the same as negative energy.And I am fairly certain they are.

Like a dome above the other planes, the Positive Plane is the source of radiant energy and the raw life force that suffuses all living beings, from the puny to the sublime. Its dark refleclion is the Negative Plane, the source of necrotic energy that destroys the living and animates the undead.

[Greywander]

Misleading for sure.

As I gather it from the PHB and the DMG, the 5e Great Wheel looks more like this:
I... don't see a difference? It looks the same as in the PHB to me. Unless what you're trying to say is the Positive and Negative Energy Planes aren't really connected anywhere, and they just drew them next to the Upper and Lower Planes because they had to put them somewhere.


And I am fairly certain they are.
Radiant damage doesn't heal living creature, though. Nor does necrotic damage heal undead. As previously mentioned, common skellies and zombos aren't even resistant to necrotic, and the lich is only resistant, not immune.

I don't think positive and negative energy really exist in 5e anymore. The concepts might remain, but they've been taken out of the mechanics. IIRC, Cure Wounds used to literally be channeling positive energy, while Inflict Wounds was channeling negative energy. That's why the former would damage undead while the latter would heal them. But Cure Wounds doesn't affect undead at all anymore, and Inflict Wounds just deals damage, and undead not immune to necrotic damage will still be hurt by Inflict Wounds.

There just don't seem to be any effects in 5e that are specifically related to positive or negative energy. The Planes themselves remain, because they're part of the cosmology, but as a mechanical concept, positive and negative energy just don't seem to exist anymore. Which just makes things more confusing.

[Millstone85]

I... don't see a difference? It looks the same as in the PHB to me. Unless what you're trying to say is the Positive and Negative Energy Planes aren't really connected anywhere, and they just drew them next to the Upper and Lower Planes because they had to put them somewhere.It includes the Outlands and the para-elemental planes, which are absent from the PHB illustration. And with the Outlands, it shows that the Material, the Echo Planes, and the Elemental Planes are not, in fact, surrounded by the Outer Planes.

Also, yes, that's exactly what I am saying about the Energy Planes.


Radiant damage doesn't heal living creature, though. Nor does necrotic damage heal undead.
I don't think positive and negative energy really exist in 5e anymore. The concepts might remain, but they've been taken out of the mechanics.Positive energy is now called radiant energy, though it still comes from the Positive Plane, while negative energy is now called necrotic energy, and still comes from the Negative Plane.

But the old mechanics are indeed no more, despite the fluff still suggesting them. Or, perhaps, necrotic energy can now "overload" the undead just as surely as radiant energy does with the living.

[JackPhoenix]

Okay, but is that illustration wrong or misleading? What is it actually depicting? What it suggests is that the Negative Energy Plane is adjacent to all of the Lower Planes, and thus one could imagine that portals between the Lower Planes and the Negative Energy Plane would exist.

That illustration is attempting to depict 3 (or more precisely, more) dimensional construct on 2D page in the book. Of course it's misleading.


And no creatures in the MM are immune to radiant damage. I'm fairly certain that radiant damage isn't the same as positive energy, nor is necrotic damage the same as negative energy. Common skeletons and zombies are neither immune nor resistance to necrotic damage, and even the lich is only resistant. It's not because they're undead, it's because they're powerful monsters that have more resistances and immunities.

That's because positive and negative energy isn't really a thing in 5e. Undead aren't harmed by healing, and there's no "negative energy" damage that would heal them.


Positive energy is Life, negative energy is Death. It seems like there's some sort of alliance between Life and Good, but Evil and Death are still a bit at odds with one another. From this perspective, I kind of don't understand why the Lower Planes haven't been conquered by powerful undead yet, displacing fiends entirely. With potentially quick access to the Negative Energy Plane, it seems like a strong lich lord could sustain an undead army almost indefinitely and eventually grind the fiends down.

You can't "eventually grind the fiends down" if they just keep respawning, unlike the undead. And there's no "Quick access to the NEP" in the first place, not any quicker than anywhere else, anyway. Lich may have some limited success in lower planes, but once the bigwigs (archdevils, demon princes, gods living there) come to play, it's over for him.

PEP and NEP are pretty hostile to anything that gets there. They are not Good or Evil, they are just power sources.

[Naanomi]

The positive and negative energy Planes overlay the entire Cosmology, they are not particularly connected to the Outer Planes and (with the exception of the Shadowfel and Feywyld) don’t touch any places more or less than any other

And negative energy isn’t evil, it is definitionally Neutral and natural... it just happens to be easy to misuse so lots of evil things utilize it, and beings that unnaturally run on it tend to hate the living and thus are generally evil... but the energy itself isn’t (no more than death is evil)

[Millstone85]

Personally, I would merge the Positive with the Feywild, and the Negative with the Shadowfell.

To be precise, I would say that the Feywild echoes not only mountains, rivers, forests and cities of the Material, but entire crystal spheres, and that the space between those echo spheres is filled with radiant energy. Same with the Shadowfell and necrotic energy.

[Naanomi]

Personally, I would merge the Positive with the Feywild, and the Negative with the Shadowfell.

To be precise, I would say that the Feywild echoes not only mountains, rivers, forests and cities of the Material, but entire crystal spheres, and that the space between those echo spheres is filled with radiant energy. Same with the Shadowfell and necrotic energy.
Which isn’t far off from official planar cosmology, after all in the Nightwalker (MToF) description...

“One can reach the Negative Plane from the Shadowfell, much in the same way that it is possible to step from the Material Plane into the Shadowfel in a place where the barrier between the planes is thin.”

[Envyus]

The Wheel is also stated as being Metaphorical. There is no way to actually map all the planes out like that.

The Negative Plane is not easier to access from the Lower Planes or anything. And most fiends gain no power from it. The Fleshy Undead also tend to be destroyed by Negative Energy as well. Only certain types are immune.

[Maan]

Personally, I would merge the Positive with the Feywild, and the Negative with the Shadowfell.

To be precise, I would say that the Feywild echoes not only mountains, rivers, forests and cities of the Material, but entire crystal spheres, and that the space between those echo spheres is filled with radiant energy. Same with the Shadowfell and necrotic energy.
I'm actually working on that for a setting of mine.
Sort of a "Dreamland" plane echoing the material world (instead of Astral Plane), with a "good" part of it being pretty much the Feywild and the "nightmare" part being the Shadowfell. Those are pretty much going to be the points of contact where good and evil enter the material world.