What alignment is this charcter?

[Conradine]

Formerly, he was a vicious, self centered, slightly sadistic and hedonistic Chaotic Evil mercenary.
Then he fell in love, reciprocated, with a Good aligned woman.

He gave up crime, started working honestly, refrained from erratic and violent behiavour, all in the name of love.
He would give up his life to defend his loved one. He would never hurt her, not even if betrayed.
Even if he doesn't believe in law and benevolence he would fight to defend the helpless. He would go as far as sacrificing himself for a cause he deosn't believe in - the cause of Good - all for love.

But if she went missing...
he would back of his murderous tendencies, worse than before.

[DeTess]

Formerly, he was a vicious, self centered, slightly sadistic and hedonistic Chaotic Evil mercenary.
Then he fell in love, reciprocated, with a Good aligned woman.

He gave up crime, started working honestly, refrained from erratic and violent behavior, all in the name of love.
He would give up his life to defend his loved one. He would never hurt her, not even if betrayed.
Even if he doesn't believe in law and benevolence he would fight to defend the helpless. He would go as far as sacrificing himself for a cause he doesn't believe in - the cause of Good - all for love.

But if she went missing...
he would back of his murderous tendencies, worse than before.

I'm getting the impression that this character is non-capitalized chaotic evil. He doesn't want to see the entire world burn, he just want to earn money and doesn't at all mind that he's found that hurting people earns him a lot of money. Am I correct in this reading?

Anyway, there's a couple of ways to argue this. If you look purely at his actions, I think you could argue that he started out as chaotic evil,s tarted acting more chaotic good thanks to love, which resulted in his alignment slowly shifting upwards. As long as his loved one is fine, this trend would continue. Basically, he's compensating bad karma with good karma through his actions. However, since he would apparently fall right back at the death of his loved one, I'm not sure this is the right way of looking at this problem.

If we focus on the fact that he'd return to his old behaviour, one could argue that he never stopped being chaotic evil. He has found something he wants above all other things, and has found that the best/only way to get it is to act good, but he only acts that way so he can get what he wants. That's pragmatic, but not really alignment indicative.

Personally, I'd say he's a pragmatic chaotic evil at heart that doesn't swing too far towards either evil or chaotic. Depending on how your world's afterlives work he might just end up north of limbo if he lives to an old age and doesn't outlive his wife.

[Kaleph]

Formerly, he was a vicious, self centered, slightly sadistic and hedonistic Chaotic Evil mercenary.
Then he fell in love, reciprocated, with a Good aligned woman.

He gave up crime, started working honestly, refrained from erratic and violent behiavour, all in the name of love.
He would give up his life to defend his loved one. He would never hurt her, not even if betrayed.
Even if he doesn't believe in law and benevolence he would fight to defend the helpless. He would go as far as sacrificing himself for a cause he deosn't believe in - the cause of Good - all for love.

But if she went missing...
he would back of his murderous tendencies, worse than before.

So, the be clear, is he William Munny or the Saint of killers?

I mean, Munny could be neutral or even good, the saint of killers one step worse, I'd guess.

[Conradine]

I was thinking about William Munny, yes.

Mindreader!



I'm getting the impression that this character is non-capitalized chaotic evil. He doesn't want to see the entire world burn, he just want to earn money and doesn't at all mind that he's found that hurting people earns him a lot of money. Am I correct in this reading?

Correct.



If we focus on the fact that he'd return to his old behaviour, one could argue that he never stopped being chaotic evil. He has found something he wants above all other things, and has found that the best/only way to get it is to act good, but he only acts that way so he can get what he wants. That's pragmatic, but not really alignment indicative.

Mh... no, not exactly.

He's not acting pragmatically to fulfill a desire or a need of possession. He truly, genuinely love his wife and wants her to be happy. If innocents are hurt, he feels sorrow... because he see his loved one suffering. He wants her to be happy.

But if she went missing, he would feel like an hollow husk, devoid of empathy, compassion or love.

[MisterKaws]

He's just as much chaotic evil as he was before. If someone appeared to him as a threat to her, he'd immediately dispose of this threat out of her sight, wouldn't he?

[zlefin]

I'd go with chaotic evil by their intent/personality. but the net effects of their actions could shift them to neutral over time; they'd shift back to CE if the wife dies.

it depends whether we measure alignment by intent or by actions

[Dekion]

Despite the alignment rules being too constrictive for the range of possible "human" behaviors, and agreeing that there is a whole argument of intent versus behavior, I tend to feel like alignment follows the general guidelines of the rules of the game...Specific overrides general.

His specific behavior toward this person is predicated on his relationship with the person. He loves her, so he is inclined to be gentle and caring and as a result this bleeds over into his regular interactions with others, but his old behavior isn't gone, it's just pushed aside by this specific relationship. I've often believed that evil characters can treat someone they love in a completely different way than their "nature" would indicate.

I would also ask, what would he do if she turned on him, for what ever reason, would that "flip the switch?" Would he be able to hold on to that love through such a loss, or would it shift to become a driving force for his anger as well, because loss doesn't have to mean death.

In the end, knowing what I do, I would say that the character is still chaotic evil, but that redemption is possible. Does he do good things for her, or because they are right? And, If he loses this woman (in whatever capacity you define loss,) then how he reacts after would define his true alignment at that moment. We can play at being good, but it is what we do in a crisis that truly defines who we are.

[Kish]

Chaotic Evil.

"I'll act in a fashion that doesn't actually make any sense to me or have anything to do with my moral sense because someone else wants me to" isn't an actual moral change.

Now, if he acts in an outwardly nonevil fashion long enough, he might start to undergo a genuine change, but that's up to his player. As long as his conscience is fully externalized, he's just as evil as ever.

[Elvensilver]

As the question told is: What alignment is this character?
I'd say at the moment he is neutral. Love is in a pure form a good thing, but just loving someone isn't a good act in itself. On the other hand, sacrificing your lifestyle for someone, risking yourself for ideals and being a warrior of love (cheesy, but here it seems to fit) is a good thing. On the other hand he did not entirely change, as he'd fall again without his love - so he has still some evil traits. But the good actions and the genuine empathy (even if solely directed towards his wife) will make him neutral. Becoming crazy and evil after the loss of a loved one is a well known trope, but beforhand you were better than evil.

[Conradine]

He's just as much chaotic evil as he was before. If someone appeared to him as a threat to her, he'd immediately dispose of this threat out of her sight, wouldn't he?

He would.

But since she's a Good aligned woman, a wife and a mother - not a Rogue or a Fighter - if someone threatened a basically defenseless good person I would argue that he deserve what he gets.



I would also ask, what would he do if she turned on him, for what ever reason, would that "flip the switch?" Would he be able to hold on to that love through such a loss, or would it shift to become a driving force for his anger as well, because loss doesn't have to mean death.

He would never, ever, hurt her.
He would forgive her and still be on her side even if she betrayed him, even if she spurned him.
Even if she became evil and started murdering people, he would still love and protect her.



Does he do good things for her, or because they are right?

Only for her.



And, If he loses this woman (in whatever capacity you define loss,) then how he reacts after would define his true alignment at that moment

If she were killed, he would goes on an Epic level roaring rampage of revenge.
If she fell mortally ill he would do everything, even go to Hell and back, to find a cure.
He would sacrifice both himself and the world without the slightest exitation to protect her.

[Kaleph]

I've just finished viewing the movie (again); the implicit question it poses is if anything can change the nature of a man. The answer is not univocal and cannot in any case be captured by such a simplicistic system like d&d's 9 alignment.

Anyhow. William Munny has never lost his killing instinct, but has more than mitigated it with the superstructures his wife gave him; also, he indeed prefers the loving cares of and to his family than his previous life. This should make him at least TN.

The death of his wife didn't really change his alignment, but removed the center of gravity of his superstructures. His last bounty hunt is at least partially forced by circumstances, and before his final rampage he experience another loss, that alone could be enough to justify his change in behaviour. The showdown with little Bill is mostly a personal thing. It's true that the kid recognizes him for what he really is deep inside, and he's scared, but in the end it looks like he won't kill anymore.

So, I'd say he's TN.

EDIT

If she were killed, he would goes on an Epic level roaring rampage of revenge.
If she fell mortally ill he would do everything, even go to Hell and back, to find a cure.
He would sacrifice both himself and the world without the slightest exitation to protect her.
That's rather the saint, not Munny.

[TheYell]

I lean more towards Munny being Neutral Evil. He was selective in who he killed, he didn't just kill the entire posse of Little Bill or everybody in the room at Greely's. He killed

two assaulters of women with bounties on their heads
A man who decorated his saloon with the corpse of Ned
Little Bill, who beat a prisoner to death
Everybody shooting at him

He called on bystanders to get out of the way of the shotgun blast that killed Greely. He called on everybody who didn't want to die to get clear while he reloaded. He threatened Beauchamp but didn't actually shoot him. If we think of the Joker as CE, then Munny is not chaotic.

I put him down as Evil because he presumes he can settle all disputes with his gun regardless of the laws on the books, and makes no effort at restitution or atonement. He kills and moves on.

[King of Nowhere]

put me back in the "still shallow end of chaotic/neutral evil because his intentions are still ultimately selfish, may change eventually".

a chaotic evil only cares about himself. A good person cares about everyone. Caring about exactly yourself and one single other person, or even one single family... I'd say still chaotic evil.

Now, before you specified that he would never hurt her even if she broke up, I was going to say that this is exactly the kind of guy who ends up killing his ex. because all the good in him seems to come through love, losing that love may have... dramatic consequences.
After you specified that's not going to happen, I'm now saying this could be exactly the kind of guy who will end up as a punch-clock villain who will perform great atrocities while caring for his family. Like many nazis were good husbands and fathers, ready to sacrifice for their fatherlands, but they had no problem killing jews, because they were outside of the "people you should care about" group. Actually, nazis were more on lawful evil side because of all the ideology, a better example could be someone working as a mobster to ensure his family keeps a high living standard. that's actually the prime excuse mobsters use.

Anyway, since his partner is truly caring, and this guy is not doing evil because he knows his partner will suffer at seeing the results of evil, there is a chance he may be swayed in an upward direction with time. but as long as his only motivation is "she would not like it"? still evil.

[HouseRules]

The problem with the Alignment system is that selfishness is also considered Evil. It clearly needs to be an independent axis of alignment.

[Zhentarim]

Formerly, he was a vicious, self centered, slightly sadistic and hedonistic Chaotic Evil mercenary.
Then he fell in love, reciprocated, with a Good aligned woman.

He gave up crime, started working honestly, refrained from erratic and violent behiavour, all in the name of love.
He would give up his life to defend his loved one. He would never hurt her, not even if betrayed.
Even if he doesn't believe in law and benevolence he would fight to defend the helpless. He would go as far as sacrificing himself for a cause he deosn't believe in - the cause of Good - all for love.

But if she went missing...
he would back of his murderous tendencies, worse than before.

Ask the dm to use this alignment system instead:
https://medium.com/s/story/the-mtg-color-wheel-c9700a7cf36d

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?174163-Alignment-Replacement-The-Color-Wheel-Now-With-More-Green!

The two links above detail an alignment system more nuanced than the typical system. For example, when I do the quiz for color alignment, I come out Black/Blue. Your character sounds Black/Red.


—though this alignment system below could also work:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t58u?Motives-Methods-An-Alternative-to-Alignment

[Covenant12]

Currently on the line between CG and CN, with a real risk of falling back to CE.

He was CE. Now, regardless of "only cause love", he will risk his life for others (not only his love, but decent people in general), in extreme conditions sacrifice himself for them.

That's pushing into G territory, though in his heart he can be selfish, I care about actions than internal dialogue.

If his love dies he may quickly go back to CE. He isn't there today.

I haven't seen anything heading in the direction of lawful in any way, and he was clearly chaotic to start. Honestly I'd say on the good side of CG/CN line, but not by a lot.

[Crake]

Alignment can be a tricky thing to navigate honestly. I personally run a dual alignment system. You have the alignment of your mindset, your intentions so to speak, and then you have the alignment of your cumulative actions over the course of your life. Your mindset pings you on alignment radars, and determines how you're affected by various alignment based spells, but your cumulative actions determine your destination upon death.

In this case, said character would likely be going to a good plane upon death, but would still ping as chaotic evil.

[Vaern]

As long as she's around, he's chaotic neutral with a pull towards chaotic evil.
Good means being willing to sacrifice yourself for the well-being of others, not just one person that you have a reason to care about. If he explicitly doesn't believe in the cause of Good, and if he is performing good acts only to make her happy rather than because he actually cares about the people he is helping, then he isn't really being drawn to the good side of the spectrum. It's likely that when he is, for example, running down a thief in the market to return a stolen item to an unfortunate passerby, he gets more pleasure from catching the thief than from returning the item to its rightful owner.
And even though he's now living as an average person, he still doesn't have any respect for the law. When acting as or trying to think like a good character, he is likely to see the law as oppressive or failing to the people he perceives as helpless. His chaotic alignment is unlikely to be affected by his relationship with the good character.