Another Frenzied Berserker fix - Action Surge for Exhaustion

[Segev]

I agree with the general assessment that Frenzied Berserker isn't very good. The frenzy gives very little, and costs far too much. A single extra attack on a bonus action is...okay...but other classes get cool stuff to do with bonus actions, too, and don't have to endure Exhaustion after using those class features. So, I propose just giving Frenzied Berserkers the bonus attack when raging, period, and making Frenzy a use of the Fighter's Action Surge that can only be used during rage and causes a level of exhaustion when the rage ends.

Path of the Berserker
For some barbarians, rage is a means to an end -- that end being violence. The Path of the Berserker is a path of untrammeled fury, slick with blood. As you enter the berserker's rage, you thrill in the chaos of battle, heedless of your own health or well-being.

Frenzy: Starting when you take this path at 3rd level, when you are raging, you work yourself into such a frenzy that you may make a single melee or thrown weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns. Using this bonus action gives all melee attacks against you Advantage until the start of your next turn.

Berserk: While raging, you can go berserk and push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action. When your rage ends, you suffer one level of exhaustion for each time you used this feature.

Hair-trigger: Starting at 6th level, if you have any rages left for the day, you may enter a rage as a reaction when you take damage. You enter the rage before the damage is calculated, potentially applying any resistances the rage may grant you.

Mindless Rage, Intimidating Presence, and Retaliation are unchanged.

[JNAProductions]

Hair-Trigger is good!

Berserk is good, ish.

Frenzy is WAY TOO GOOD-it's basically a free BA attack every time you use Reckless Attack. Since you can't stack Advantage, you just combine them and whip out twice as many attacks as Fighters (levels 3 and 4) or 50% more (5-10).

[Segev]

Hair-Trigger is good!

Berserk is good, ish.

Frenzy is WAY TOO GOOD-it's basically a free BA attack every time you use Reckless Attack. Since you can't stack Advantage, you just combine them and whip out twice as many attacks as Fighters (levels 3 and 4) or 50% more (5-10).

I'm starting from a premise that a bonus action attack is actually barely on par with other level 3 abilities, considering that the level 2 fighting style TWF can grant essentially the same thing. Therefore, it's not worthy of the cost associated now...and probably should just be something they get. The fact that its "cost" is essentially nothing if you're already using Reckless Attack is also deliberate. I honestly thought about not having a cost at all, but I figured having at least a thematic "yeah, you're being incautious" nod to the notion was appropriate. (Note that if you use the thrown weapon attack option, Reckless Attack doesn't apply, so it's technically a mild cost there.)

And, like I said, certain fighter builds (TWF, primarily) will get the same number of attacks without having to be raging or anything.

Berserk does step a bit on fighter toes, but at the now-probably-actually-about-right cost of Exhaustion levels each time it's used.

Ironically, Hair-Trigger was the one I was worried would be a step too far! ^_^;

In light of the above, do you still feel a bonus attack while raging is too much? If so, can you elaborate as to why?

[JNAProductions]

A level one or two TWF Style gives you an extra attack of 1d6+Stat mod, and can't be used with a shield.

This gives 1d8+Stat mod (with shield) or 2d6+stat mod.

Think about how highly rated PAM is. Now remove the feat cost and allow it to be used with more powerful weapons.

[Segev]

A level one or two TWF Style gives you an extra attack of 1d6+Stat mod, and can't be used with a shield.

This gives 1d8+Stat mod (with shield) or 2d6+stat mod.

Think about how highly rated PAM is. Now remove the feat cost and allow it to be used with more powerful weapons.

Hm. So do you think the original Frenzy was properly balanced? The bonus action attack while raging, but you get a level of Exhaustion after the rage ends?

[Amechra]

Why not have Frenzy be something like this?

Frenzy: Starting when you take this path at 3rd level, when you are raging, you work yourself into such a frenzy that you may make a single melee or thrown weapon attack with Disadvantage as a bonus action on each of your turns.

That way, you still have an incentive to stack it with Reckless Attack, and you're still chucking around an extra 1d12+Str attack each turn. If it ends up being slightly weaker than other 3rd-level features, the fact that they get a tweaked (and arguable superior) version of Action Surge¹ at the same level should more than make up for it.

¹ You can technically spam it if you have a Cleric friend with multiple Greater Restorations prepared.

[Segev]

Giving it Disadvantage is an interesting approach: the barbarian is so frothing mad that he's getting sloppy. I was also considering, if it really needs a nerf, making it cost some number of hp each time it's used.

[Kane0]

Like a hit die?

[Moxxmix]

Like a hit die?

That does sound reasonable. Spend a hit die to gain a bonus melee attack during an attack round. That works in a similar vein to the exhaustion mechanic, in that you're spending your ability to recover, and it takes a long rest to recoup the hit dice. And you can't keep using it to the max each day, because you only recover half your hit dice each long rest.

You obviously get more uses per level, but the long rest mechanic keeps it somewhat in check, if the DM so desires (similar to, but not as harsh as, the exhaustion mechanics). A level 10 could use it 10 times the first day, but no more than 5 times each following day if the barbarian kept using it as much as possible. Plus you're burning up your ability to recover on short rests, so you're draining healing magic or potions to keep going.

I know there's been minor pokes at the idea of using hit dice for extra bonus features, but this is the first one that really seems to be an appropriate fit. (Though it gives me another idea for a use for sorcerer.)

[Segev]

Maybe make it one hit die to enter frenzy when raging?

[Kane0]

It's a relatively common idea, I've never seen any particularly convincing arguments that it's a bad one.

[Segev]

I mean, as I'm not 100% convinced that it's broken to just give Barbarians the base Frenzy ability (a bonus action attack) while raging, no cost, it certainly isn't a problem to me to let them have more than one useful Frenzy per day.

[Zhorn]

Like a hit die?
That does sound reasonable. Spend a hit die to gain a bonus melee attack during an attack round. That works in a similar vein to the exhaustion mechanic, in that you're spending your ability to recover, and it takes a long rest to recoup the hit dice. And you can't keep using it to the max each day, because you only recover half your hit dice each long rest.

You obviously get more uses per level, but the long rest mechanic keeps it somewhat in check, if the DM so desires (similar to, but not as harsh as, the exhaustion mechanics). A level 10 could use it 10 times the first day, but no more than 5 times each following day if the barbarian kept using it as much as possible. Plus you're burning up your ability to recover on short rests, so you're draining healing magic or potions to keep going.

I like this one. Maintains the 'pushing the limits' feel of Berserker but keep it reigned in.

For my current Barbarian player, i've given their frenzy the following modifications
Frenzy causes temporary exhaustion (all stacks of temporary exhaustion clear on either a short or long rest)
At Barbarian level 11, Frenzy grants 2 attacks as a bonus action instead of 1 (since level 11 is where zealot starts pulling ahead in reliable damage without a exhaustion cost like berserker is dealing with)

[Moxxmix]

Plus you're burning up your ability to recover on short rests, so you're draining healing magic or potions to keep going.

This gave me a cheesy idea to add on top.

• Drinking a pint of strong ale (or equivalent other liquor) can act as a Potion of Healing [2d4+2 healing]. You can perform this as a bonus action during combat. After gaining this benefit, make a Con save against DC 10 + number of pints you drank today. On failure, you pass out for a number of hours equal to the total number of pints you drank today. If you are forcibly awakened during this period, you act as if you had exhaustion level 3, and pass out again any time you are given a chance to rest.

This probably wouldn't really work as a normal class feature, but I'd totally have fun with it.

[Segev]

I like this one. Maintains the 'pushing the limits' feel of Berserker but keep it reigned in.

For my current Barbarian player, i've given their frenzy the following modifications
Frenzy causes temporary exhaustion (all stacks of temporary exhaustion clear on either a short or long rest)
At Barbarian level 11, Frenzy grants 2 attacks as a bonus action instead of 1 (since level 11 is where zealot starts pulling ahead in reliable damage without a exhaustion cost like berserker is dealing with)

I definitely think a hit die per bonus action attack is too much. At most, I think it should be a hit die to enter a frenzy when you rage, much like the current PHB rules are a level of exhaustion for the whole rage to be a frenzy.

[Moxxmix]

And yet another idea, inspired by the cheesy idea, and related to "exhaustion that fades on a short rest" common idea.

Amendment to Frenzy:

• When your rage ends, make a constitution saving throw against DC 10 + the number of times you've used Frenzy since your last long rest. If you fail, you pass out for a number of hours equal to the number of times you've used Frenzy since your last long rest, and the counter is reset. If you are forcibly awakened during this period, you act as if you had exhaustion level 3 (unless your actual exhaustion level is higher), and pass out again any time you are given a chance to rest.

As a rough estimation, there's about a 25% chance of passing out, though by level 9 your first Frenzy would likely only have a 10% chance of failing the DC.

In most cases, this would be much better than the guaranteed exhaustion, though in time-sensitive cases it could potentially be worse.

[Segev]

And yet another idea, inspired by the cheesy idea, and related to "exhaustion that fades on a short rest" common idea.

Amendment to Frenzy:

• When your rage ends, make a constitution saving throw against DC 10 + the number of times you've used Frenzy since your last long rest. If you fail, you pass out for a number of hours equal to the number of times you've used Frenzy since your last long rest, and the counter is reset. If you are forcibly awakened during this period, you act as if you had exhaustion level 3 (unless your actual exhaustion level is higher), and pass out again any time you are given a chance to rest.

As a rough estimation, there's about a 25% chance of passing out, though by level 9 your first Frenzy would likely only have a 10% chance of failing the DC.

In most cases, this would be much better than the guaranteed exhaustion, though in time-sensitive cases it could potentially be worse.
This is actually potentially fatal if something causes you to de-rage when the fight isn't over, or in anything resembling dangerous situations. Consider if foes contrive to avoid giving you an opportunity to hit them. You de-rage, then (potentially) pass out while combat is still going on.

[Moxxmix]

This is actually potentially fatal if something causes you to de-rage when the fight isn't over, or in anything resembling dangerous situations. Consider if foes contrive to avoid giving you an opportunity to hit them. You de-rage, then (potentially) pass out while combat is still going on.

Hmm. True. Maybe make the check happen after combat ends, since presumably it's really the adrenaline crash when you relax after combat ending that really stresses your body.

[Segev]

Hmm. True. Maybe make the check happen after combat ends, since presumably it's really the adrenaline crash when you relax after combat ending that really stresses your body.

Could force the check at the start of a short rest. That's when the crash would really hit. They're presumably in a safe place; all this is doing is making the barbarian do nothing else for that time, and maybe extend the short rest to much longer than expected.

[Moxxmix]

Could force the check at the start of a short rest. That's when the crash would really hit. They're presumably in a safe place; all this is doing is making the barbarian do nothing else for that time, and maybe extend the short rest to much longer than expected.

That works.

New version:

• If you have used Frenzy since your last long rest, then each time you take a rest, make a constitution saving throw against DC 10 + the Frenzy usage count. If you fail, you pass out for a number of hours equal to the Frenzy count, and the counter is reset to 0. If you are forcibly awakened during this period, you act as if you had exhaustion level 3 (or your actual exhaustion level, if it is higher), and pass out again any time you are given a chance to rest.