The Colossus monsters, ELH

[Nezkrul]

Regarding the colossus creature in the epic level handbook- The immunity to magic ability.

Is that ability directly defined by the antimagic field ability and only uses that block of text for its rules?

Or is the colossus literally immune to all spells, including conjured instantaneous effects (like the orb spells in spell compendium) AND has an AMF around it, in addition?

I know golem magic immunity was updated from 3.0 to 3.5, but the ELH update failed to update this ability of the colossus.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The 3.5 update for golems and other pre-epic monsters that are immune to magic says that SR: No spells bypass that.

Each type of Colossus has magic immunity that includes supernatural abilities, and supernatural abilities always bypass SR. So it would stand to reason that they are still immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects except as noted for each type.

Use the huge metal dome with Shrink Item applied worn on your head trick if you're worried about one getting too close. Their AMF will unshrink the dome, which will completely block line of effect to you, removing you from the AMF so you can teleport away.

[MisterKaws]

Instantaneous conjurations aren't spells after they're done casting, so their immunity to magic definitely does not apply to them.

[Nezkrul]

I tried explaining the instant conjuration thing to the DM but he says the magic immunity applies to all spells, those included.

[MisterKaws]

If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

This is srd. I recall it's also on the phb, on the chapter right before spells. Conjuration(Creation) section.

[Biggus]

There was a 3.5 update booklet for the ELH and they didn't change their magic immunity. It's possible it may be an oversight, but many epic monsters have abilities which their nonepic counterparts don't, so it may be intentional. Also, the wording for golems' and colossi's magic immunity in 3.0 was not identical, so it may not be intended to be exactly the same ability.

The Orb spells are a bit contradictory, in that in the SRD for conjuration (creation) it says "If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence", but with the Orb of Acid spell for example, although you're still presumably covered in acid, it apparently has no further effect after the first round, unlike Acid Arrow, and the specification "object or creature" doesn't really apply to eg an Orb of Force. So one way or the other, there's going to have to be some DM adjudication.

[DarkSoul]

What does the DM say? If you are the DM, making the golems immune to magic makes it (much, in some cases) harder for casters to affect them.

Personally, I rule that immunity to magic means you can't directly affect them with magic that's not explicitly listed as doing so. You can't orb of fire a golem that's immune any more than you can fireball it. You can knock a wall of iron over on one because the spell doesn't directly affect the golem.

[DarkSoul]

I tried explaining the instant conjuration thing to the DM but he says the magic immunity applies to all spells, those included.Then casters are likely going to have to rely on the rest of the party to help take out magic-immune creatures.

Oh, the horror. /sarcasm.

[unseenmage]

Then casters are likely going to have to rely on the rest of the party to help take out magic-immune creatures.

Oh, the horror. /sarcasm.

Could always teleport stuff instead of conjuring it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Use the huge metal dome with Shrink Item applied worn on your head trick if you're worried about one getting too close. Their AMF will unshrink the dome, which will completely block line of effect to you, removing you from the AMF so you can teleport away.That's called the tinfoil hat trick, and it was first described here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129012-How-Many-Uses-for-a-Tinfoil-Hat), IIRC.

And if you want something a bit more amusing... (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1ksmnx/35the_ubiquitous_wizard_hat_and_its_true_function/)

Also, toss pots of oil and grease on the ground under it -- or use the grease spell. No ranks in Balance? That thing's going flat on its arse, epic or not.

[Nezkrul]

You can't orb of fire a golem that's immune any more than you can fireball it. You can knock a wall of iron over on one because the spell doesn't directly affect the golem.

An orb of fire is no more magical than a conjured wall of iron. They are both instant creation conjurations that create real objects that have different effects on the environment. Saying a wall of iron can tip over on it but a real fire cant burn it is ludicrous.

[DarkSoul]

An orb of fire is no more magical than a conjured wall of iron. They are both instant creation conjurations that create real objects that have different effects on the environment. Saying a wall of iron can tip over on it but a real fire cant burn it is ludicrous.It's not ludicrous, it's magic. Some magic affects golems IMC, most doesn't. Orb of X happens to be part of the "doesn't", for me. Want to play a caster and fight constructs? Buff the fighter. It's called teamwork, try it sometime.

[RoboEmperor]

Orb of X happens to be part of the "doesn't", for me.

Doesn't matter what it is for you. We're not talking about your table and your house rules.

[sorcererlover]

It's not ludicrous, it's magic. Some magic affects golems IMC, most doesn't. Orb of X happens to be part of the "doesn't", for me. Want to play a caster and fight constructs? Buff the fighter. It's called teamwork, try it sometime.

I like teamwork. Teamwork among skilled players is awesome. What I don't like is playing like a two year old who can't do anything except beat things with a stick because the DM is a mundanephile that spams house rules and bans until everything is weaker than a worthless T5 class and calls forcing players to buff a worthless T5 class instead of a gated minion or a planar bound one just so the T5 class can feel like he's the protagonist of the story instead of the worthless deadweight that he is "teamwork".

[RoboEmperor]

I like teamwork. Teamwork among skilled players is awesome. What I don't like is playing like a two year old who can't do anything except beat things with a stick because the DM is a mundanephile that spams house rules and bans until everything is weaker than a worthless T5 class and calls forcing players to buff a worthless T5 class instead of a gated minion or a planar bound one just so the T5 class can feel like he's the protagonist of the story instead of the worthless deadweight that he is "teamwork".

Fighters can kick ass. With the proper magic items they can kick ass harder than Pit Fiends. Not as durable but durable enough and significantly more damaging even without ubercharging. I don't remember if the fighter I played with used custom magic items or not. I think he did.


Buff the fighter. It's called teamwork, try it sometime.

How do buffs help a fighter in an AMF? You did read the first post right?

[DarkSoul]

Doesn't matter what it is for you. We're not talking about your table and your house rules.At that particular moment the OP and I were talking about my table and my house rules, tyvm. In fact in the OP they make it pretty clear they aren't even sure what the actual rules are. Obviously they've already made up their mind about how it should work.

To reiterate; if you're the DM, actual full immunity will make it harder on the casters. If you're not the DM, find out how they say it works and play accordingly.

EDIT: Looks like they've already got the answer from the DM (post 4) and didn't like what they heard. It's the DM's world. Play in it, or don't. Nothing we say here can make your DM change their mind if they don't want to.

[Âmesang]

I figured colossi were the kind of monsters that "epic spells" were meant for, such as using the ward seed to make an area immune to antimagic fields — an "anti-antimagic field," if you will.

You'd still have to deal with everything else the colossi have, but it should be well up a party's alley to find a way to neutralize its defenses.

[RoboEmperor]

Obviously they've already made up their mind about how it should work.

Considering the rules are direct, explicit, with no room for misinterpretation if you actually read the rules, I don't see why them making up their minds is anything but normal.

[Biggus]

I like teamwork. Teamwork among skilled players is awesome. What I don't like is playing like a two year old who can't do anything except beat things with a stick because the DM is a mundanephile that spams house rules and bans until everything is weaker than a worthless T5 class and calls forcing players to buff a worthless T5 class instead of a gated minion or a planar bound one just so the T5 class can feel like he's the protagonist of the story instead of the worthless deadweight that he is "teamwork".

Good grief dude, even with this DM's interpretation of the rules, casters are still better than mundanes 99% of the time and you resent the 1% of the time they're not?

[DarkSoul]

Considering the rules are direct, explicit, with no room for misinterpretation if you actually read the rules, I don't see why them making up their minds is anything but normal.Care to quote the rest of what I said, while you're at it? The DM made their ruling. The player doesn't like it so came here for ammunition for a futile argument, or at the very least confirmation that the DM is wrong.

In the end, it doesn't matter what the rules say. It matters what the DM says, and the player decides to roll with that, or not to. As long as the DM is consistent and not changing the rules every other session, everything settles into a "normal" that may or may not follow RAW exactly.