Finesse 2Handed - How to go at it?

[Cikomyr]

So my mother has an Elf, Dex-based Eldritch Knight character who is currently dual welding with a rapier and a shorts word.

I know the Eldritch Knight is not the best class to dual weild since they have so much use of their bonus action for other stuff than the free attack. So I think I may eventually suggest to her that she switch to Sword and Board, Two handed or just duellist.

If she wants to move to 2 handed, I wanted to evaluate my options to enable the use of finesse.

I mean, Elven Finesse 2 Handed Weapon welders is not entirely out of bounds when it comes to fantasy lore. Just thinking of the Swordmasters of Hoeth in Warhammer fantasy.

So.. Obviously, I wouldn't let anyone just pick up a 2 handed swords and let her fight with it with Dex. To go outside the rules, Id request someone to work a little bit for her. Here's some of my ideas:

- Fighting Style required. Call it "Elven Swordmaster". Allows the handling of 2 handed weapons to be used with Finesse.

- Specific items required. Maybe force a Mithril weapon, or perhaps have lower-damage equivalents to the Great sword, great axes, etc..

For example, the Fencing Great sword could be a 1d6 + 1d4 weapon?

The above could be either/or. Let me know your thoughts.

[Snowbluff]

Sunblade is versatile finesse.

[Spiritchaser]

The double bladed scimitar from the wayfarers guide to eberron sounds a lot like what you’re looking for

[Frozenstep]

Your player is currently dual wielding and has not said anything about wanting to switch, right?

In that case, just have the dual wielding feat allow you to bundle the off-hand attack with the main action, rather then coming up with a complex solution that your player may not want.

[Man_Over_Game]

See, I'd rather find a way to make TWF fit in to the build. Like adding a feat that allows you to cast a cantrip with your Action and Bonus Action if you are an Eldritch Knight not using a Shield. It also gives you an additional Wizard Cantrip.

[Zhorn]

I'm agreeing with Spiritchaser on this, double bladed scimitar is the ideal pick mechanically and thematically.

With the Revenant Blade feat, it will let them operate with a finesse two-hander with a rough equivalent of the Dual Wielder feat
They'll still have the option to BA attack after taking the attack action
And on 2d4 weapon damage, Great weapon Fighting will offer more damage re-rolls

[Wildarm]

So my mother has an Elf, Dex-based Eldritch Knight character who is currently dual welding with a rapier and a shorts word.

I know the Eldritch Knight is not the best class to dual weild since they have so much use of their bonus action for other stuff than the free attack. So I think I may eventually suggest to her that she switch to Sword and Board, Two handed or just duellist.

If she wants to move to 2 handed, I wanted to evaluate my options to enable the use of finesse.

I mean, Elven Finesse 2 Handed Weapon welders is not entirely out of bounds when it comes to fantasy lore. Just thinking of the Swordmasters of Hoeth in Warhammer fantasy.

So.. Obviously, I wouldn't let anyone just pick up a 2 handed swords and let her fight with it with Dex. To go outside the rules, Id request someone to work a little bit for her. Here's some of my ideas:

- Fighting Style required. Call it "Elven Swordmaster". Allows the handling of 2 handed weapons to be used with Finesse.

- Specific items required. Maybe force a Mithril weapon, or perhaps have lower-damage equivalents to the Great sword, great axes, etc..

For example, the Fencing Great sword could be a 1d6 + 1d4 weapon?

The above could be either/or. Let me know your thoughts.

An exotic weapon would be fine. Mirthil Katana would be my go to as the base: 2-handed, Finesse - damage can be 1d12, 3d4 or 2d6 - Whatever you feel fits the bill.

Training in an exotic weapon in my game is the same as learning a new language or tool proficiency. You need proficiency in marshal weapons in order to do the special training. Otherwise, you don't have enough general weapon expertise to master such an exotic weapon.

[GlenSmash!]

Sunblades
Moonblades
Double Bladed Scimitar with the appropriate feat

I would also be fine with adding a Mithral longsword or greatsword or even having it crafted following the crafting rules in XGtE.

[Rukelnikov]

I'm agreeing with Spiritchaser on this, double bladed scimitar is the ideal pick mechanically and thematically.

With the Revenant Blade feat, it will let them operate with a finesse two-hander with a rough equivalent of the Dual Wielder feat
They'll still have the option to BA attack after taking the attack action
And on 2d4 weapon damage, Great weapon Fighting will offer more damage re-rolls

Thirded.

Revenant Blade is exactly what you are looking for

[Cikomyr]

Thanks everyone, great ideas. But the below...


Sunblade is versatile finesse.

Oh ****. Thats exactly what I wanted.

She is a Winter Eladrin Eldritch Knight. They just fought a Goblin Sword Warlock whose master was an Archfey of the Winter Court, and made a big deal that the magnificent silvery snowflake hilt had some sort of springing ice blade that shattered when they killed the Warlock.

I told my mom how DnD was a very flexible game. We can make up stuff to explain how you end up with a magical weapon, etc.. Besides "you found it in a cave". So I told her that as an Eldritch Knight, she can create a bond with a weapon; why not do it on the Hilt itself? Well say you can remanifest the same magic phenomenon that allowed the Warlock to have his blade.

And then just make that blade Finesse, Versatile, and whatever other properties I'll ever want to add based on level.

[Vogie]

If they have a rapier in one hand and a shortsword in the other, they already have the Dual Wielder feat, as a Rapier is not a light weapon by RAW.

Instead of trying to move her away of their preferred playstyle, I'd lean into it. For example:

Once they get to level 7, allow their War Magic to be "when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack with each of your weapons as a bonus action". That'd allow them to Cantrip/Attack/Offhand attack in a turn.
Change the Two Weapon Fighting Style to Mearls' playtest version (which I use in my Further Revised Ranger) to add an extra die of damage - " When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus action attack. Starting at level 10, your first attack each turn has an additional damage die, based on the damage of the offhand weapon."
Creation of a feat that gives them more options to use their offhand weapon. Maybe a variant of Defensive dualist that acts like a Kensei Monk's Agile Parry, or how successful attacks with the mainhand weapon increases the potential damage of the offhand weapon.
Creation of a Legacy weapon that updates itself over time, allowing them to work towards what would be an larger, otherwise over-powered weapon. This could just be increased scaling, or something like a bifurcated weapon (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BifurcatedWeapon) that allows both of them to be combined into a single, larger weapon

[Sjappo]

So my mother <snip>
Side note. This is so cool.

About your question, I would not make d decisions for her. Not everything has to be optimal. Lots of players don't care for it.

Is she having fun? Does she feel her character is pulling her weight? If yes to both questions? Let is go. Don't fix what ain't broken.

[Theodoxus]

Thanks everyone, great ideas. But the below...



Oh ****. Thats exactly what I wanted.

She is a Winter Eladrin Eldritch Knight. They just fought a Goblin Sword Warlock whose master was an Archfey of the Winter Court, and made a big deal that the magnificent silvery snowflake hilt had some sort of springing ice blade that shattered when they killed the Warlock.

I told my mom how DnD was a very flexible game. We can make up stuff to explain how you end up with a magical weapon, etc.. Besides "you found it in a cave". So I told her that as an Eldritch Knight, she can create a bond with a weapon; why not do it on the Hilt itself? Well say you can remanifest the same magic phenomenon that allowed the Warlock to have his blade.

And then just make that blade Finesse, Versatile, and whatever other properties I'll ever want to add based on level.

This is ideal - I love making magic items that level and grow with the characters.

As an aside, I added a versatile finesse weapon that is base 2d4, and 3d4 when used two-handed. It's been used by 1 player, who was a half-orc barbarian. He loved critting with the thing. :smallwink:

[Âmesang]

An exotic weapon would be fine. Mirthil Katana would be my go to as the base: 2-handed, Finesse - damage can be 1d12, 3d4 or 2d6 - Whatever you feel fits the bill.
The D&D Next playtest had a katana statted out as a two-handed finesse weapon for 1d10 slashing; my referee allowed me to reflavor it as an "elven curve blade" for my drow antipaladin (due her figurine being depicted with a long, curved-blade sword).

[Man_Over_Game]

This is ideal - I love making magic items that level and grow with the characters.

As an aside, I added a versatile finesse weapon that is base 2d4, and 3d4 when used two-handed. It's been used by 1 player, who was a half-orc barbarian. He loved critting with the thing. :smallwink:

I'm actually against leveling magical items. I think that magic items should add to a character concept, not define it. A mechanic is not defined by the tools he has, but by how he uses them. He'll swap out his tools, find new ones, use older ones, and he'll be a better mechanic because of it.

I think that players feeling that magic items are impersonal, even disposable, is better for the game as a whole. It encourages more growth, hard choices and team cooperation. Scaled magic items are like giving out free feats to me. It's cool, it's powerful, but...is it making the game better?

[Cikomyr]

Side note. This is so cool.

About your question, I would not make d decisions for her. Not everything has to be optimal. Lots of players don't care for it.

Is she having fun? Does she feel her character is pulling her weight? If yes to both questions? Let is go. Don't fix what ain't broken.

Just covering my bases. Her biggest shortcoming as a player is her belief in her lack of skill as a player and her lack of self confidence when it comes to picking up crunch choices. She is afraid to make the wrong decision and handicap the group.

This is why I have been lenient in allowing her what she wants without bashing down too much. It's just that I know at one point in the future, she will try to use a spell as a bonus action (like Misty Step) and want to do her off-hand and realize it's not as good as she had imagined. I wanted to be ready with ideas if she worried too much about that.

The special magical item linked to her class is definetly a great idea. Plus, the Iceblade is such a cool concept to imagine.

[Sjappo]

Just covering my bases. Her biggest shortcoming as a player is her belief in her lack of skill as a player and her lack of self confidence when it comes to picking up crunch choices. She is afraid to make the wrong decision and handicap the group.

This is why I have been lenient in allowing her what she wants without bashing down too much. It's just that I know at one point in the future, she will try to use a spell as a bonus action (like Misty Step) and want to do her off-hand and realize it's not as good as she had imagined. I wanted to be ready with ideas if she worried too much about that.

The special magical item linked to her class is definetly a great idea. Plus, the Iceblade is such a cool concept to imagine.
Which begs the question, how optimised are the other characters? 2 weapon fighting EK is sub optimal but by no means gimped.

Having competing uses for an action, be it bonus, regular or reaction, just adds meaningful choices. Which is what RPG's are about. Do I misty step away to avoid a beating or take the extra attack and try to kill the monster.

To be honest, 2 handed weapons don't do much more damage than 1 handed weapons. 1d8 vs 2d6 is only 2,5 points. Easily overcome by the extra attack. Unless you start stacking feats on it.