Wild Magic Logistics

[FilthyLucre]

GitPG Brain Trust,

I have a player who has created a wild magic sorceress. Rather than determine when she ought to roll on for possible wild magic effects I am going to preemptively rule that she rolls every time she cast a spell of 1st level or higher, (so, anytime she could, she will).

However, I'm still left with making a decision about how to handle Tides of Chaos. My initial plan was to rule that the ability refreshes when she produces a wild magic effect, or after a long rest, whichever comes first.

This way I never have to make any decisions and my player has a set-in-stone understanding of how and when her powers work/refresh.

Does this seem reasonable?

[erok0809]

That's pretty much exactly how my DM ran it when I played one. I basically mainly used Tides of Chaos on my initiative roll since it's a Dex check, then cast a spell and wild magic surged, then used Tides of Chaos on a cantrip, then cast a spell...repeat until the fight ends. Wild Magic Surge is the most fun part of that class, so you want it to happen as much as possible.

[FilthyLucre]

That's pretty much exactly how my DM ran it when I played one. I basically mainly used Tides of Chaos on my initiative roll since it's a Dex check, then cast a spell and wild magic surged, then used Tides of Chaos on a cantrip, then cast a spell...repeat until the fight ends. Wild Magic Surge is the most fun part of that class, so you want it to happen as much as possible.

Well, considering you only have a 5% chance of it occurring I thought it was important for there to be plenty of chances to trigger it and I feel like that 5% also refreshing Tides of Chaos would allow her to be able to use that feature often enough without her just having advantage constantly. To be clear, my ruling is that she has to actually trigger Wild Magic Surge to recharge Tides of Chaos, not simply cast a spell of 1st level or higher.

[Man_Over_Game]

GitPG Brain Trust,

I have a player who has created a wild magic sorceress. Rather than determine when she ought to roll on for possible wild magic effects I am going to preemptively rule that she rolls every time she cast a spell of 1st level or higher, (so, anytime she could, she will).

However, I'm still left with making a decision about how to handle Tides of Chaos. My initial plan was to rule that the ability refreshes when she produces a wild magic effect, or after a long rest, whichever comes first.

This way I never have to make any decisions and my player has a set-in-stone understanding of how and when her powers work/refresh.

Does this seem reasonable?

The Wild Magic table is supposed to have a 100% roll chance if you're using Tides of Chaos virtually every chance you can.

Since you're deciding that the Magic Table is going to have a 100% roll chance, the sensible option is to have Tides of Chaos be applied every chance it can, as well.

There is a big difference between the two solutions, though: Tides of Chaos only assists with Attack spells, and what you're suggesting is a 100% surge chance applied to EVERY spell, not just after the player casted an enhanced attack spell.

The fix then should cause Tides of Chaos to apply to EVERY spell as well, right?

My suggestion is to have every spell the Sorcerer makes a Wild Surge from to either grant Advantage on its attack, has Advantage to save for 1 creature, or Disadvantage to save for 1 creature.




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Ideally, a Wild Magic Sorcerer would be using Tides of Chaos whenever they needed to make an attack spell, then risking a 100% Surge chance, and then using Tides of Chaos on more attack spells as needed.

What you're suggesting is removing the player's decision in this. No longer are they able to limit it to when they choose, for the attack spells they choose. As a result, they deserve to have some kind of method of controlling the outcome, or some kind of valid strategy to allow them to cast fewer spells and avoid adding unnecessary chaos.

Because default Wild Magic Sorcerers can throttle how weird things get, when your suggestion removes that option.

[FilthyLucre]

The Wild Magic table is supposed to have a 100% roll chance if you're using Tides of Chaos virtually every chance you can.

Since you're deciding that the Magic Table is going to have a 100% roll chance, the sensible option is to have Tides of Chaos be applied every chance it can, as well.

There is a big difference between the two solutions, though: Tides of Chaos only assists with Attack spells, and what you're suggesting is a 100% surge chance applied to EVERY spell, not just after the player casted an enhanced attack spell.

The fix then should cause Tides of Chaos to apply to EVERY spell as well, right?

My suggestion is to have every spell the Sorcerer makes a Wild Surge from to either grant Advantage on its attack, has Advantage to save for 1 creature, or Disadvantage to save for 1 creature.

1.) I think you're misunderstanding. RAW, the DM decides when, if at all, the player can recharge Tides of Chaos beyond a long rest. Period.
2.) You are similarly mistaken about the effect of Tides of Chaos. Activating the ability grants advantage on an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw. It does not only apply to attack rolls.
3.) The question is how to automate when she rolls for possible Wild Magic Surge and if producing a Wild Magic Surge should refresh Tides of Chaos without my having to specifically ask for it.

[gcatfish]

Its somewhat problematic.
There are times when you want to avoid accidently casting fireball on your own party or innocent bystanders for whatever reason. In those cases, the sorcerer can choose not to use Tides of Chaos to minimize the chance of it occurring. Without having this option, party conflict is likely. It certainly further limits the wild mage's ability to use spells like Suggestion with subtle, for instance.

In general, you shouldn't need to keep track of when a wild surge happens. Anyone playing a wild sorcerer is going to want to roll on the table, as it is more often a benefit for the player or neutral, so the player will inform you when they get to roll because Tides of Chaos is down.

Even if the chart was more negative than positive, the player likely would tell you. Many people really like wild surges simple because they make things unpredictable.

In general, the best practice is to say a surge occurs whenever Tides of Chaos is expended (surges already refresh the ability) . The wild mage is at its best with frequent uses of Tides of Chaos, so there should be plenty of surges. The language about when the DM chooses/permits is largely there to give the DM a rules basis for disallowing a surge when it would be very disruptive to play.

[FilthyLucre]

Its somewhat problematic.
There are times when you want to avoid accidently casting fireball on your own party or innocent bystanders for whatever reason. In those cases, the sorcerer can choose not to use Tides of Chaos to minimize the chance of it occurring. Without having this option, party conflict is likely. It certainly further limits the wild mage's ability to use spells like Suggestion with subtle, for instance.

In general, you shouldn't need to keep track of when a wild surge happens. Anyone playing a wild sorcerer is going to want to roll on the table, as it is more often a benefit for the player or neutral, so the player will inform you when they get to roll because Tides of Chaos is down.

Even if the chart was more negative than positive, the player likely would tell you. Many people really like wild surges simple because they make things unpredictable.

In general, the best practice is to say a surge occurs whenever Tides of Chaos is expended (surges already refresh the ability) . The wild mage is at its best with frequent uses of Tides of Chaos, so there should be plenty of surges. The language about when the DM chooses/permits is largely there to give the DM a rules basis for disallowing a surge when it would be very disruptive to play.

Players literally never gets to decide when they get to roll on the Wild Magic Table. It's always up to my, the DM's, discretion. Also, your suggestion would result in it being possible for the character to have advantage on every single attack roll, skill check, and saving throw if merely using Tides of Chaos then activates the means to refresh it.

[Man_Over_Game]

Players literally never gets to decide when they get to roll on the Wild Magic Table. It's always up to my, the DM's, discretion. Also, your suggestion would result in it being possible for the character to have advantage on every single attack roll, skill check, and saving throw if merely using Tides of Chaos then activates the means to refresh it.

They don't decide when the GM decides to makes the roll, but they do get to decide if the GM can decide when to make the roll.

It's like deciding to put an explosive barrel onto your truck. It might be helpful. It might blow up. Or you could decide to not put it on there. You're making the decision that "all trucks must be equipped with explosive barrels", which takes away the player's ability to be cautious.

[FilthyLucre]

The responses so far have either misunderstood my goal or actually not understood how these abilities actually work so I'm going to spell out what I'm thinking in more narrative terms.

Whenever Sylph the Wild Magic Sorceress cast a 1st level spell or higher I will have her roll 1d20. If the result is a 20 she will then roll 1d100 and consult the Wild Magic Surge table. After Sylph has used her Tides of Chaos ability it will only recharge if one of the following conditions are met: She rolls a 20 after casting a 1st level spell or higher -OR- She completes a long rest.

The point is that she will always know the parameters of how and when her abilities work. This way, I do not have to make any arbitrary decisions about when to allow her to refresh Tides of Chaos.

Is this reasonable? Yes or No + Why.

[FilthyLucre]

They don't decide when the GM decides to makes the roll, but they do get to decide if the GM can decide when to make the roll.
Unless you're talking about your own house rule please quote the PHB text which supports this statement. Because if you're saying that a player can prevent a DM from having to make the decision by never using their ability then yes, that is trivially true. However it's already a minor ability that you are then giving up for the sake of... what?

[gcatfish]

Players literately never gets to decide when they get to roll on the Wild Magic Table. It's always up to my, the DM's, discretion. Also, your suggestion would result in it being possible for the character to have advantage on every single attack roll, skill check, and saving throw if merely using Tides of Chaos then activates the means to refresh it.

It is at the DM's discretion, yes. Even without the language to the effect in the ability that would be the case. Having the language in the ability just prevents arguments when the DM says it is not appropriate to roll at this time, and there will almost certainly be times when it is not.

It is not, however advantage to every roll, as even with my suggestion, you must use a level 1 or higher level spell to refresh the feature. Everyone has a limited number of such spells.

I do agree that granting advantage will be fairly frequent. I don't see that as problematic though. Given the requirement that a spell be used for each roll made with advantage (average benefit +4 or so statistically), it will likely only see use twice per encounter at mid levels, which I feel (admittedly a subjective measure) compares well with the dragon sorcerer's always on AC bonus.

[FilthyLucre]

It is at the DM's discretion, yes. Even without the language to the effect in the ability that would be the case. Having the language in the ability just prevents arguments when the DM says it is not appropriate to roll at this time, and there will almost certainly be times when it is not.

It is not, however advantage to every roll, as even with my suggestion, you must use a level 1 or higher level spell to refresh the feature. Everyone has a limited number of such spells.

I do agree that granting advantage will be fairly frequent. I don't see that as problematic though. Given the requirement that a spell be used for each roll made with advantage (average benefit +4 or so statistically), it will likely only see use twice per encounter at mid levels, which I feel (admittedly a subjective measure) compares well with the dragon sorcerer's always on AC bonus.

Wrong again. Please read the entry for Tides of Chaos. It is trigger at will with no requirement unless it is on cool down. You do not need to cast a first level spell to then use Tides of Chaos.

Your suggestion results in this:

Use Tides of Chaos - Immediately Roll for Wild Magic Effect because Tides of Chaos was activated - Tides of Chaos is refreshed.

Infinite advantage.

[Man_Over_Game]

The responses so far have either misunderstood my goal or actually not understood how these abilities actually work so I'm going to spell out what I'm thinking in more narrative terms.

Whenever Sylph the Wild Magic Sorceress cast a 1st level spell or higher I will have her roll 1d20. If the result is a 20 she will then roll 1d100 and consult the Wild Magic Surge table. After Sylph has used her Tides of Chaos ability it will only recharge if one of the following conditions are met: She rolls a 20 after casting a 1st level spell or higher -OR- She completes a long rest.

The point is that she will always know the parameters of how and when her abilities work. This way, I do not have to make any arbitrary decisions about when to allow her to refresh Tides of Chaos.

Is this reasonable? Yes or No + Why.

Oh. So....basically, you're removing the clause to allow the DM to call for a guaranteed Wild Surge after the player uses Tides of Chaos?

It's definitely not bad, it might just mean the game is a little more boring. That's 1/20 spells that's going to have a surge, and a level 3 Sorcerer would need to burn through all of his resources for about 3-4 days straight between surges.

[gcatfish]

The responses so far have either misunderstood my goal or actually not understood how these abilities actually work so I'm going to spell out what I'm thinking in more narrative terms.

Whenever Sylph the Wild Magic Sorceress cast a 1st level spell or higher I will have her roll 1d20. If the result is a 20 she will then roll 1d100 and consult the Wild Magic Surge table. After Sylph has used her Tides of Chaos ability it will only recharge if one of the following conditions are met: She rolls a 20 after casting a 1st level spell or higher -OR- She completes a long rest.

The point is that she will always know the parameters of how and when her abilities work. This way, I do not have to make any arbitrary decisions about when to allow her to refresh Tides of Chaos.

Is this reasonable? Yes or No + Why.


If you as a DM do not want Tides of Chaos to be used more than once per long rest, this if fine. At low levels, getting a 20 on a dice after casting a leveled spell isn't really any different than never having a player roll a surge to refresh the ability.

Both are reasonable so long as the player understands how often she will surge before putting in the work of making the character.

[dreast]

I have had 5e wild mages (I’m old school) in past and current campaigns. Here’s how I handled it, and I think this maximizes fun:

First, realize that from a design perspective, Tides of Chaos is 5e’s answer to AD&D 2e’s “Nahal’s Reckless Dweomer” spell. It’s the mechanism by which the mage can tap into their chaotic class for advantage. It’s got less upside (“free spell from anything I cam cast!”) but less downside too (5e wild magic table... if you’re using the default). Also, like NRD, it’s limited per day by the user’s spell slots.

So, my rule is this: Every leveled spell gets a WM roll (5% chance to surge). If ToC is on cooldown, then that chance jumps to 100% and ToC is refreshed. The only exception is for out of combat utility spells, like mage armor or identify; they don’t surge, primarily because the sorcerer can focus on controlling the chaos more.

I like this because it forces tactical considerations, removes DM arbitration over a player’s class ability, and they’re perfectly legitimate rulings under the rules as they stand.

[gcatfish]

Wrong again. Please read the entry for Tides of Chaos. It is trigger at will with no requirement unless it is on cool down. You do not need to cast a first level spell to then use Tides of Chaos.

Your suggestion results in this:

Use Tides of Chaos - Immediately Roll for Wild Magic Effect because Tides of Chaos was activated - Tides of Chaos is refreshed.

Infinite advantage.

Yes, tides can be used at any time when it is available.
But a surge to refresh the ability only happens after a spell of first level or higher is cast. In effect, the ability can at best be used (number of spell slots character has)+1 times per long rest, based on the refresh conditions, not the triggering condition. And you cannot trigger a surge to refresh it unless it is expended.

Specifically,
Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table immediately after you
cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. You then regain the use of this feature.

limits the surge to a time that you have used the ability and have cast a spell of 1st level or higher

Based on DM discretion, of course.

[Asmerv]

I played multiple WMS, and would like to provide input.

With your initial suggestion, Tides being up or down has no impact on the likelihood of a surge. I think this is both thematically and tactically not the best option. Furthermore, getting a 1/20 for a surge means most days in earlier levels will not have a surge and the subclass will just amount to 'Get advantage on a roll 1/long rest' which is not that exciting.

My latest solution that I've arrived at with my DM is the following:

If Tides is unused, you have X% chance to cause a surge when you cast a spell of level 1 or higher. If Tides has been used, you have a Y% chance to cause a surge instead, and the surge recharges Tides in the process. Adjust X and Y according to the balance you want. We use 5% for X and 75% for Y.

This gives the player more agency over when a surge might happen, adjusting their Tides use appropriately for in combat vs social situations, but doesn't completely negate the random nature.

[FilthyLucre]

I played multiple WMS, and would like to provide input.

With your initial suggestion, Tides being up or down has no impact on the likelihood of a surge. I think this is both thematically and tactically not the best option. Furthermore, getting a 1/20 for a surge means most days in earlier levels will not have a surge and the subclass will just amount to 'Get advantage on a roll 1/long rest' which is not that exciting.

My latest solution that I've arrived at with my DM is the following:

If Tides is unused, you have X% chance to cause a surge when you cast a spell of level 1 or higher. If Tides has been used, you have a Y% chance to cause a surge instead, and the surge recharges Tides in the process. Adjust X and Y according to the balance you want. We use 5% for X and 75% for Y.

This gives the player more agency over when a surge might happen, adjusting their Tides use appropriately for in combat vs social situations, but doesn't completely negate the random nature.

What would you think about the range become one point wider each time a 1st level spell is cast but a surge does not occur?

[Vogie]

In my CoS game, my gf is a spellpoint variant Wild Magic Sorcerer. She's leaned hard into the randomness, and the WMS d20 roll is done whenever the Sorceress

Casts a 1+ level spell
Rolls a 1 on a spell attack roll
Rolls a 20 on a spell attack roll
Rolls 3+ of the same number when rolling damage
and rolls it twice when casting a leveled spell while trying to refresh Tides of Chaos (as RAW).

The DM also calls for a d100 roll when the they hit a 1 or 20 on the WMS d20 roll. IIRC, RAW just triggers on a 1. So, it's triggering 10% of the time, rather than 5%. I believe the DM and her determined the surge is vaguely stress-based, as It does NOT trigger if she's casting mage armor when out of combat, but will trigger if she casts it in combat (the only anecdote that's come up thus far).

So far, she's hit it about 1 time per level early on, but that picked up significantly at 3 - she picked up Empowered Metamagic, and is allowed her to Twin Chaos Bolt, rolling damage separately for each target (up to 3 triggers per casting). So far she has had only the smaller effects, save two:

Negated an entire early encounter from the Death House basement by rolling a nat 1 on a Firebolt, rolled a 1 on the WMS d20, and blasted everything with lightning.
Is 4 years younger, which is amusing because her character didn't know her age to begin with.

[Asmerv]

What would you think about the range become one point wider each time a 1st level spell is cast but a surge does not occur?

Would be fun to build the excitement, but the overall rate would still be fairly low. You could increase the range by spell level, so 2nd level spells would up it by 2 etc. This would also give some control to the player if the incrementing is done before rolling, as you can choose to cast a big spell and hope for a surge. For example the counter could be at 3, and you cast a fireball, increase the range to 6 and then roll with a decent chance to surge.

[sophontteks]

Take all micromanagement out of the equation. No need for houserules.

If they cast a spell and tides is on cooldown the player rolls on the surge table assuming you will always choose to have them roll.

[Man_Over_Game]

Would be fun to build the excitement, but the overall rate would still be fairly low. You could increase the range by spell level, so 2nd level spells would up it by 2 etc. This would also give some control to the player if the incrementing is done before rolling, as you can choose to cast a big spell and hope for a surge. For example the counter could be at 3, and you cast a fireball, increase the range to 6 and then roll with a decent chance to surge.

The other issue is that it'd be frustrating to track.

"Are we on 3? Or 4? Wait, I forgot to roll last time so...5, maybe?"

Although I suppose that can be fixed by having a die on the table that counts the number of spells cast, but dice as markers don't work well because they often get flipped.

[Asmerv]

The other issue is that it'd be frustrating to track.

"Are we on 3? Or 4? Wait, I forgot to roll last time so...5, maybe?"

Although I suppose that can be fixed by having a die on the table that counts the number of spells cast, but dice as markers don't work well because they often get flipped.

I agree with this, and this is why we ultimately went with a constant chance. Tides up? Surge on a 1. Tides down? Surge on a 1-15.

[FilthyLucre]

Take all micromanagement out of the equation. No need for houserules.

If they cast a spell and tides is on cooldown the player rolls on the surge table assuming you will always choose to have them roll.

This is probably the best suggestion so far because it ties the refresh with a consumable resource.

[Quoz]

Recently played a wild mage, it was lots of fun. Accidentally summoned a unicorn in the boss fight of a haunted crypt. It flat out destroyed the undead, but I know If I ever hit that roll again it will probably be the same unicorn and probably won't like me very much...

The way my GM and I interpreted it was that any time Tides is expended when you cast a spell, it causes a surge and refreshes tides. This gives lots of advantage, and lots of surges. If you don't want chaos play a wizard.

This even extends to spells you cast with Wild Magic itself. You cast shield, triggering a surge and refreshing Tides. The surge castes Fireball. You use your now refreshed Tides on the saving throw, and since Tides is expended Fireball triggers another surge and refreshes Tides again.

We kept track of it with a drink coaster. Right side up Tides was available. Upside down, you're getting a surge.