Does anyone in 5E play single class Warlocks?

[Yakmala]

Recently while at my local game shop for an evening of AL, one of the other tables needed more players for a tough module, so I dusted off my only Tier 4 character, a Level 19 single Class Battle Master.

The other players at the table all identified as Warlocks and all were level 20's. As Warlocks are wont to do, they were complaining about their limited number of short rest spells. I foolishly said "Well, you are all level 20's. Doesn't your Level 20 ability let you quickly refresh your spell slots once per long rest?

That got a hearty laugh from everyone, including the DM, over the absurd notion that any of them were single-class Warlocks. It turned out that they were Sorlocks and Hexadins.

So I have to ask... Does anyone play single class Warlocks in 5th Edition, or do 95% of Warlock characters stop leveling Warlock somewhere between levels 1-4?

[GlenSmash!]

I've got one in my party. Fiend Warlock pact of the Tome. Good blasting and lots of utility through rituals.

Edit: building off MoG's post below. We almost always have 2 short rests in between long rests.

[Man_Over_Game]

Recently while at my local game shop for an evening of AL, one of the other tables needed more players for a tough module, so I dusted off my only Tier 4, character, a Level 19 single Class Battle Master.

The other players at the table all identified as Warlocks and all were level 20's. As Warlocks are wont to do, they were complaining about their limited number of short rest spells. I foolishly said "Well, you are all level 20's. Doesn't your Level 20 ability let you quickly refresh your spell slots once per long rest?

That got a hearty laugh from everyone, including the DM, over the absurd notion that any of them were single-class Warlocks. It turned out that they were Sorlocks and Hexadins.

So I have to ask... Does anyone play single class Warlocks in 5th Edition, or do 95% of Warlock characters stop leveling Warlock somewhere between levels 1-4?

I actually enjoyed a full level Warlock. The trick is, you gotta trust your DM to know the value of a Short Rest.

Played it out to about level 6-7. If your DM lets you take Short Rest often (and mine did), you are basically the group's best utility specialist. Like you're an Arcane Trickster when every other caster is a Samurai Fighter. Sure, some people are going to have a better time in combat, but you dominate everywhere else.

I used an Eldritch Blast build, with Repelling Blast, and use Fly on me and my teammates while I just pushed enemies into positions for bombs and the such. I had a few magical items to jack up my defenses in a pinch, as the fall damage really sucked when my Concentration ran out. Was a blast, though.

[Davehotep]

I played a fey pact Warlock 18 / Barbarian 2 in an epic level 1-20 campaign. It wasn’t the most synergistic build but it was right for the character - he basically believed he was an oath of vengeance paladin but was really a messed up kid with anger issues who unintentionally made a pact with The Prince of Fools.
I think I’d be quite happy to play a single class warlock from 1-20 after that experience.

[Naanomi]

Celestial Pact with the Tome, a bunch of Eldritch Blast and sensory Powers... and perhaps Prodigy: Persuasion... best utility character possible?

[Astofel]

The more I think about the warlock the more I absolutely love it, because of all the flavour that patrons give the class and all the flexibility that invocations give it. Forget the bard, it's the warlock that can be built to do literally anything. Sadly it seems that most DMs don't run their games in a way that allows the warlock to shine, so they never have enough spell slots and people claim things like "a sorlock is always better than a regular warlock."

The first warlock I played was a GOOlock from levels 8-10. That one was pretty boring, just a blaster warlock with one or two utility invocations, but I also made the mistake of giving him a boring personality to RP, which I never managed to fix despite trying. The next one was a fighter/fiendlock because I wanted to be a bladelock without being a hexblade, and that one ended up being a melee juggernaut who could occasionally back himself up with Fireball or Fear, and an absolute blast to play.

[Man_Over_Game]

Celestial Pact with the Tome, a bunch of Eldritch Blast and sensory Powers... and perhaps Prodigy: Persuasion... best utility character possible?

If you're aiming for Expertise, just invest 2 levels into Bard. It'll go a lot further than a weak feat.

The full thing would probably be:

Celestial Warlock X (so that you have a unique feature to provide in combat, and that you're not reliant on a mundane EB) + 2 levels into Bard
Mask of Many Faces, Book of Ancient Secrets, Actor Feat

In combat, you're either rewarding Bardic Inspiration or you're healing allies as you burn everything with Firebolt and Sacred Flame. You could do without the Bard, but doing so means you're focusing more on combat prowess/damage than utility and team support.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I'm currently playing a single classed Feylock, Pact of the Blade. And I have no plans to multi-class.

[Kane0]

Yeah single classed Fiend Tomelock up to level 14.

[sophontteks]

Yes,
Warlock and sorcerers require more work to get a lot out of them, but they are really good in the right hands.

[Wryte]

Archfey bladelock, switching to UA Hexblade but keeping the fluff after it came out. Made it to level 10 before we defeated Strahd and the campaign ended, and probay still wouldn't have classed out even if we'd kept going.

[stoutstien]

About 40/50 pure vs multiclass locks at my tables. Most of the multiclassing are dips of 3 lvs or less.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Recently while at my local game shop for an evening of AL, one of the other tables needed more players for a tough module, so I dusted off my only Tier 4 character, a Level 19 single Class Battle Master.

The other players at the table all identified as Warlocks and all were level 20's. As Warlocks are wont to do, they were complaining about their limited number of short rest spells. I foolishly said "Well, you are all level 20's. Doesn't your Level 20 ability let you quickly refresh your spell slots once per long rest?

That got a hearty laugh from everyone, including the DM, over the absurd notion that any of them were single-class Warlocks. It turned out that they were Sorlocks and Hexadins.

So I have to ask... Does anyone play single class Warlocks in 5th Edition, or do 95% of Warlock characters stop leveling Warlock somewhere between levels 1-4?

I ran a single level through Strahd. Sometimes I think the group think and greener grass of multi class lures folks into things.

In a game I DM I threw two Level 17ish Warlock NPC's at an OP Blackrazor having level 10/11 party partly to try an advanced version of my Strahd character. The L17 Warlocks more than held their own.

[MaxWilson]

If you're aiming for Expertise, just invest 2 levels into Bard. It'll go a lot further than a weak feat.

Bards don't get Expertise until level 3, and three levels is a heavy, heavy price to pay.

[Man_Over_Game]

Bards don't get Expertise until level 3, and three levels is a heavy, heavy price to pay.

Ah, damn, you're right. Not sure why I thought they got Expertise at level 2.

Still, 3 levels isn't too terrible for a Warlock. A Warlock doesn't have access to low level spells like other classes do, so it's not like you're getting a bunch of redundant low level spells and spell slots.

[MaxWilson]

Still, 3 levels isn't too terrible for a Warlock. A Warlock doesn't have access to low level spells like other classes do, so it's not like you're getting a bunch of redundant low level spells and spell slots.

It's a lot more expensive than a feat is though. In fact you'll your capstone, a feat/ASI, a spells known/invocation, and most of all you'll delay your spellcasting progression by half a tier without getting any synergies in return, just long-rest Bardic Inspiration and some low-level spell slots and spells known. You could have invested those three levels in e.g. Fighter 1/Rogue 2 and come out of it with that same Expertise plus heavy armor + shield proficiency, a fighting style, and Cunning Action, or you could have invested them in e.g. Sorcerer for Subtle Spell and Quicken Spell.

The opportunity cost is high.

[Kyutaru]

The issue with warlocks is they gain far too little from going high up in the class. You can hit your 5th lvl stride by lvl 9 with 10 spells known and you only get 5 more spells by lvl 20 that are the same spell level. Spell slots double but 2->4 isn't an enormous jump either and going from 5 invocations to 8 is another slap in the face. Sure you get access to a single 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th spell if you keep going but so does everyone else. Every other casting class gets tons of spell slots and access to their full library while you're left using class features for the standard spell progression instead of getting actual abilities. Ultimately you're a one trick pony who is married to Eldritch Blast and that one cantrip sacrifices your entire class potential for it.

Single class warlocks are still played for flavor and the mild power gains but they gain so little from dedication compared to most other classes.

[sophontteks]

Ah, damn, you're right. Not sure why I thought they got Expertise at level 2.

Still, 3 levels isn't too terrible for a Warlock. A Warlock doesn't have access to low level spells like other classes do, so it's not like you're getting a bunch of redundant low level spells and spell slots.
Its pretty bad because the higher level invocations are pretty amazing, and its slowing spell progression.


The issue with warlocks is they gain far too little from going high up in the class. You can hit your 5th lvl stride by lvl 9 with 10 spells known and you only get 5 more spells by lvl 20 that are the same spell level. Spell slots double but 2->4 isn't an enormous jump either and going from 5 invocations to 8 is another slap in the face. Sure you get access to a single 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th spell if you keep going but so does everyone else. Every other casting class gets tons of spell slots and access to their full library while you're left using class features for the standard spell progression instead of getting actual abilities. Ultimately you're a one trick pony who is married to Eldritch Blast and that one cantrip sacrifices your entire class potential for it.

Single class warlocks are still played for flavor and the mild power gains but they gain so little from dedication compared to most other classes.

You get to cast 3 spells per short rest and each spell known is an additional spell that can be cast outside of the 3 per short rest. On top of the awesome invocations.

Invisibility at will, levitate at will, Arcane eye at will, alter self at will, hold monster at will. At-will spells are great.

[Mortis_Elrod]

First character in 5e was a warlock. Loved it. but it was prebuilt and my very first time playing 5e, so the experience is a bit fuzzy in my head. I remember casting fireball on a swarm of bats though. That was fun.

I think ive played only two other games where i was a single classed warlock.

The 2nd time I joined an online game to finish a campaign. I had a good time designing the character(i usually do), and it was the one of the few times in 5e i played at mid-high levels (we ended at 13th i joined at 12 i think). It..... idk. was kind of rough. I wasn't the full gish i envisioned i was, and compared to some of the other players i felt kind of behind. The Druid was just a way better caster, and the paladin, barbarian, and ranger were pumping out really good damage (they did have alot of magic items too).

Overall it was meh. But i didnt play all the way up to that level, and i didnt get but 1 short rest. So.... idk.


The 3rd time was a bit better. In a homebrew pokemon themed campaign (transported to Kanto at level 1. Pocket Monsters were very Monstrous an actual menace to the humans. but we weren't really allowed to catch any of them), as a Celestial Warlock of the Tome variety. I had a good time with really crappy stat rolls, we got all the the way to level 4 or 5 before the group collapsed. That one was fun though, i played much more castery than martial though i still tried to gish it up.


Not sure if this helps anyone, but from what ive played i think i love the idea of warlocks more than playing it single classed itself.

Edit: Wait! i just remembered when i played a 5th level Hexbow for a one shot. i didnt do to well on initiative, went last. But I crit on my first hit, and nova'd pretty well finishing off the boss. That was pretty fun.

Man i need to try that again, or make a new Wild Hunt patron....

[Daithi]

The Warlock is my favorite character, but no. I don't ever play as a single class warlock.

I've played a few different types of warlocks, and I think of myself as a warlock even when multi-classing, but I normally always multi-class with sorcerer. It just gives you a lot more options and can double the number of Eldritch Blast bolts you're throwing, so it basically makes you twice as powerful.

[Waazraath]

Yes of course. I have the strong impression that the only situations where single class warlock isn't fun and competative is 1) the DM's doesn't use the recommended number of short rests, and 2) (and I know I prolly won't win any popularity prize with this) is lacking player skill. Warlock has more buttons to push than most other classes when building it (invocations, spells, pact). Further, due to the short rest mechanic it has a realtive difficult resource management system during the game, and (depending on the build) lots of tactical options in combat. It is easier to mess up than a fighter or rogue (or even a cleric or wizard, I think).

[Wizard_Lizard]

Yes. I do.

[MrStabby]

Yes I played one. Yes it was the most boring character I played.

I played him up to level 9.

I could see the warlock working, but it depends on the party and somewhat on the DM.

If there is lots of social content then any charisma class will do well, but warlocks especially so.

As some people commented the number of short rests is a determining factor; in reality though this isn't a big deal. The more important factor is the scarcity of long rests. If you play a game with a substantial combat element and casters are not forced to sometimes use cantrips or weapon attacks then warlocks are not very good. This isn't really on the DM though; this is down to the other party members deciding to take a rest sooner or using their out of combat spells to skip encounters.

An assault on a castle to kill I high priest can be blocked out by a DM with an appropriate number of encounters to be balanced for the party. If a caster skips the morning encounters by flying in the party to the keep or using pass without trace or similar then long rest classes skip out a whole drain on their resources but the short rest classes skip the drain but also their recovery from it.

I would play a warlock again, but it would depend on the other characters. If there were spells like leomunds tiny hut, invisibility, pass without trace, spider climb, fly, some enchantment spells or teleportation spells on the spell lists of other characters I would play something else.



Warlock is packed with flavour and some great options for utility and some really powerful elements. Most of this you can get from a 3 level dip. Moreover, as one perk of the warlock is eldritch blast, you don't really even suffer from the same pain multiclassing that other classes do. If I play a warlock 3, eldritch knight X I will still have great thematic warlock abilities, RP and plot potential looking for rituals for a book of ancient secrets and, have more fun options for most turns in combat than to just cast eldritch blast.

[Chronos]

My table doesn't allow multiclassing, but we've still had a couple of warlocks. Mine (GOO tome) didn't last long, because he just wasn't working out (for roleplay reasons, not mechanical reasons), but the other one (Fey tome) got up to level 14, at which point the party retired.

[Waazraath]

As some people commented the number of short rests is a determining factor; in reality though this isn't a big deal. The more important factor is the scarcity of long rests. If you play a game with a substantial combat element and casters are not forced to sometimes use cantrips or weapon attacks then warlocks are not very good. This isn't really on the DM though; this is down to the other party members deciding to take a rest sooner or using their out of combat spells to skip encounters.

An assault on a castle to kill I high priest can be blocked out by a DM with an appropriate number of encounters to be balanced for the party. If a caster skips the morning encounters by flying in the party to the keep or using pass without trace or similar then long rest classes skip out a whole drain on their resources but the short rest classes skip the drain but also their recovery from it.


What else is this, except for a DM who doesn't do his or her job? It's the DM's task to provide a challenging adventure. If the adventure picked doesn't have any time pressure, and has encounters that can be skipped by a single spell, and as a concequence has a boss fight with the long rest characters at full strength... somebody didn't plan well.

[Davo]

I've played a single-class Half-Elven Warlock (Hexblade, Blade pact) to level 8 in Adventurers League before finding a non-AL table to join. Great character.

I'm currently playing a single-class Warforged Warlock (Hexblade, Tome pact) at level 5 (started at 1); I will probably take a single level of Sorcerer (Shadow) next, then continue in Warlock.

My table usually gets one short rest between long rests (lunch), and it's mostly outdoors, a caravan escort setting.

[tieren]

The issue with warlocks is they gain far too little from going high up in th. Sure you get access to a single 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th spell if you keep going but so does everyone else. Every other casting class gets tons of spell slots and access to their full library while you're left using class features for the standard spell progression.

Do they though? A level 20 wizard also only has one 9th level slot a day and one 8th level slot a day. it is true they have 2 7th and 2 6th level slots, but at the same time the warlock gets 3 additional invocations.

Granted the wizard has more flexibility with what to do with their high level slots, but I think that goes to the warlock needing to build to a focus. Warlocks are not generalists they are specialists. they can be really good at almost anything, but not good at everything.

I am playing a single class fey-chain lock right now and I am loving it. My focus is being a master of charm and illusion. I can drop level one silent images all day long, which is very fun. I can charm with a glance, swing whole encounters with a hypnotic pattern. Spy on people with an invisible scout and then disguise self at will to look like them and sound like them with the actor feat.

I have no plans to multiclass.

[I do wish I could get illusionary dragon as my eighth level arcanum though, would fit perfectly]

[MrStabby]

What else is this, except for a DM who doesn't do his or her job? It's the DM's task to provide a challenging adventure. If the adventure picked doesn't have any time pressure, and has encounters that can be skipped by a single spell, and as a concequence has a boss fight with the long rest characters at full strength... somebody didn't plan well.

But if the DM says "you are having 8 encounters every day and there is no way you can influence the world to change this" then players complain about railroading and lack of agency. It it really a good DM that says "yeah, leomund's tiny hut isn't going to impact the game at all because you will still get encounters when you need a rest. Silly for you to have picked it".

I mean time pressure is good - it isn't like it is a secret, but all of these things are tradeoffs. If you want a rich exploration pillar where the PCs get to explore an interesting world then time pressure is restrictive. Just like with the resting: you can force encounters on the party but the trade off is agency for the players. Sometimes you can even strain the world to manage all of these - always running to get somewhere, always having to wait for something if the area is interesting enough to explore, but then you have to trade this off against a wierd and unatural feeling campaign.

I don't think the DM is doing anything wrong to favour one flaw over another - it just means that if they are giving agency to players to bypass fights they want to avoid then don't play a class that has as a strength being able to recharge more easily.

[Bloodcloud]

Level 6 fiend Tomelock in my game is feeling straight OP, in a party with a lucky divination wizard, a sharpshooter valor bard, a vengeance paladin and a polearm battlemaster.

I allow fairly frequent short rests, and provide interesting terrains where forced movements can grant a heavy advantage, including the occasionnal gravity death.

So far every character has shown great power, and coordination all make them shine. Warlocks do need the short rests, but goddamn repelling blast can be an absolute showcase. They just got level 7 and I anticipate firewalls going up.

So, yeah, don't discount the single class warlock. I'd argue in a 5-minute-3-rounds workday, Being able to pump 2-3 high level spell slot is quite strong. Level 5 is pretty decent on the fiendlock who can out-fireball the wizard, but i'd guess level 8-10 might feel painfull before the 3rd spell slot and arcanum.

[Keravath]

I think it really depends on the kind of warlock you are playing.

If you are playing a bladelock then there isn't much beyond the 12th level Lifedrinker invocation that will make you better at melee or ranged combat in terms of warlock features. At that point you might be better off multiclassing since the only real features are mystic arcanums and additional invocations.

Most of those invocations are fun for role play but not exactly powerful and I include invisibility in that list since you lose it when you attack or cast a spell and it takes an action to restore it. Chains of Carceri (hold monster at will - once/creature a day and only against field/celestial/elemental) is cool but VERY niche. Overall, by 12th level you probably have most of the invocations you want and multiclassing offers more options. (P.S. The invocations that offer additional spell options like polymorph etc also use a spell slot to cast so they are a bit of a trap in my opinion)

Sorcerer or bard offer more low level spell slots for shield and such. Bardic inspiration or sorcerer metamagic are a useful boon to a melee hexblade warlock. Sorcerer meta magic in particular lets them get their most important spells (like shadow of moil) cast in the first round of combat while still being able to attack. Basically, for a bladelock, all of these typically offer far more options for the character than continuing with warlock past 12.

The only other consideration is if you take Eldritch Smite then going as far as getting 4 spells/short rest gives you an additional slot to smite with.

On the other hand, if you want to play a caster warlock, using mostly eldritch blast for damage with spell support then staying warlock makes sense especially when you get to the point of 4 level 5 spell slots/short rest as well as the mystic arcanums. I could see a level 20 tome lock working reasonably well.

[Waazraath]

But if the DM says "you are having 8 encounters every day and there is no way you can influence the world to change this" then players complain about railroading and lack of agency. It it really a good DM that says "yeah, leomund's tiny hut isn't going to impact the game at all because you will still get encounters when you need a rest. Silly for you to have picked it".

I mean time pressure is good - it isn't like it is a secret, but all of these things are tradeoffs. If you want a rich exploration pillar where the PCs get to explore an interesting world then time pressure is restrictive. Just like with the resting: you can force encounters on the party but the trade off is agency for the players. Sometimes you can even strain the world to manage all of these - always running to get somewhere, always having to wait for something if the area is interesting enough to explore, but then you have to trade this off against a wierd and unatural feeling campaign.

I don't think the DM is doing anything wrong to favour one flaw over another - it just means that if they are giving agency to players to bypass fights they want to avoid then don't play a class that has as a strength being able to recharge more easily.

Agreed up to a point. No worries if these situations pop up every now and then. But if it happens all time (up to a point that it alters the balance between classes) something does go wrong imo. Or not maybe 'wrong', if people have fun with this play style, but these experiences aren't representative anymore for normal D&D - for these campaigns, it should be clear from the beginning that they can divert from official guidelines on adventure design, and that certain classes become less or more powerful due to this (and people can take it into account when picking a class).

[Bloodcloud]

I think it really depends on the kind of warlock you are playing.

If you are playing a bladelock then there isn't much beyond the 12th level Lifedrinker invocation that will make you better at melee or ranged combat in terms of warlock features. At that point you might be better off multiclassing since the only real features are mystic arcanums and additional invocations.

Most of those invocations are fun for role play but not exactly powerful and I include invisibility in that list since you lose it when you attack or cast a spell and it takes an action to restore it. Chains of Carceri (hold monster at will - once/creature a day and only against field/celestial/elemental) is cool but VERY niche. Overall, by 12th level you probably have most of the invocations you want and multiclassing offers more options. (P.S. The invocations that offer additional spell options like polymorph etc also use a spell slot to cast so they are a bit of a trap in my opinion)

Sorcerer or bard for lots more low level spell slots for shield and such. Bardic inspiration or sorcerer metamagic are a huge boon to a melee hexblade warlock wanting to get their most important spells (like shadow of moil) cast in the first round of combat while still being able to attack. Basically, for a bladelock, all of these typically offer far more options for the character than continuing with warlock past 12.

The only other consideration is if you take Eldritch Smite then going as far as getting 4 spells/short rest gives you an additional slot to smite with.

On the other hand, if you want to play a caster warlock, using mostly eldritch blast for damage with spell support then staying warlock makes sense especially when you get to the point of 4 level 5 spell slots/short rest as well as the mystic arcanums. I could see a level 20 tome lock working reasonably well.

I'd argue there are fantastic spells for arcanum since xanathar's and foresight would be real great for any bladelock. but yeah, you get a bit more power by multicalssing at 13 than keeping sngile classed, but then you don't get quite the level 17 power spike.

But that's basically all multiclassing in 5e for you, since first three level of every basically class are frontloaded. Gain a short term power boost at the expense of long term power spike.

[DaveOfTheDead]

In my Wednesday game, we have a level 12 Fey warlock. In Tomb of Annihilation, a player was playing a Fiend warlock up to level 9 when he died.

It does happen. I also have my wife playing a Warlock 9/Cleric 1 in Curse of Strahd due to story reasons. I personally don't like multiclassing for mechanics but prefer to have a story reason for it. Just my 2cp.

[ad_hoc]

Keep in mind that AL makes up as much as 1% of the player pool.

So your sample is not indicative of players at large.

I would guess that 90+% of Warlocks are single class.

[Vorpalchicken]

I find single class warlock enjoyable to play. I usually avoid multiclassing unless it's a goofy gimmick for a one shot.

I will admit though that the last three levels of Warlock are lackluster, so if I had a 17th or 18th level Warlock, I would consider switching out for the last couple levels. That capstone is possibly the worst of any class, including Ranger.

But low-mid level Sorlock or Pallylock or whatever is not appealing at all to me.

edit- Highest single class warlock that I started at first got to 9th level, I believe. The thirst for that 3rd spell slot from 2nd to 11th probably drives warlocks into the watery drink of MC.

As long as you remember that you are not a wizard and you don't have to have a spell solution to every problem, your existing warlock tools will let you do what you do best.

[tieren]

Plus by level 13 with a rod of the pact keeper +3 (on AL evergreen list), you can have a spell DC of 21 so there are a number of greater demons you can summon that have zero chance of breaking your control.

Or take Conjure fey as 6th level arcanum and bring up a dryad or pixie or something and use their spells.

Take the invocation for conjure elemental.

I also think people shouldn't rely on the DM to give you short rests, just take them. I haven't come across any mega dungeons yet. Most of what we do is travel to a location (can SR in the supply wagon on the road) clear an encounter (usually a fight or two) then have time to investigate, search for the next clue/plot hook, etc. It is easy during this time to say, "while they search I take some time to commune with my patron".

edit:
Also on the point of the invocations that use a slot to cast a spell once a day. The warlock spell list is pretty limited, being able to add a cool and fun spell like polymorph or conjure elemental is definitely worth it.

[Kyutaru]

Do they though? A level 20 wizard also only has one 9th level slot a day and one 8th level slot a day. it is true they have 2 7th and 2 6th level slots, but at the same time the warlock gets 3 additional invocations.
Invocations are lower level, look at the lower level spell slots. Wizards get tons more for 5th and below while warlocks get 4 maximum. They get 1 each of the higher slots while you acknowledge they get a few more there too. The at wills are handy but like I said you only get 3 more versus ALL those extra spell slots. There's only so many times you can spam arcane eye.

[Segev]

I think the biggest problem with a single-class Warlock is that Mystic Arcana are supposed to carry them through to high level along side the full casters, but they fail to hit the mark. The warlock having essentially auto-upcasting of all spells to 5th level is decent, and on par with about where full casters can "spam" upcast spells, since 6+ level slots are extremely limited. However, Mystic Arcana don't upcast, and are once per day. So not only are they things you're going to sit there and say, "Well, I could cast this now, but I could have a bigger fight later that I should save it for," but they're going to never get the cooler upcast abilities that some of the spells you might select would allow.

Moreover, you're locked into specifically spells of the listed level; you can't learn, say, major image as a 6th level spell as your first Mystic Arcanum. This would actually be pretty worthwhile, because the upcast to that level makes a permanent illusion. These become useful tools you can use throughout your career, even without Malleable Illusions.

All of this combined makes Mystic Arcanum a fairly weak set of abilities compared to things other classes are getting, and they don't scale at all. If you haven't splashed out by this point, the temptation will be high to do so for something that will scale immediately better.

[tieren]

Invocations are lower level, look at the lower level spell slots. Wizards get tons more for 5th and below while warlocks get 4 maximum. They get 1 each of the higher slots while you acknowledge they get a few more there too. The at wills are handy but like I said you only get 3 more versus ALL those extra spell slots. There's only so many times you can spam arcane eye.

Do you have wizards that use Mage Armor? Thats one slot gone every day (maybe 2 or 3 times depending on the amount of activity)

Do you have an illusionist that likes to try social tricks with disguise self or cast Minor illusions? Until Level 14 the warlock is a better illusionist in my opinion.

I see a lot of sorcerers convert those low level slots for the opportunity to cast some more higher level spells which the warlocks just get.

I mean clearly looking at the list the wizard gets more slots for low level spells, but until spell mastery and signature spell the warlock gets a lot more at will casting. If you do get the 2 short rests in your adventuring day the warlock gets 12 5th level spells, plus one each level for the arcanums it gets pretty close with the warlock casting nearly the same number of total spells (assuming they both use every slot available) but the warlock would have been casting at 5th level for all of them so more total power.

If you include the warlock capstone it would be 20 spells a day (16 5th and one each 6, 7, 8, and 9).

[MrStabby]

I think the biggest problem with a single-class Warlock is that Mystic Arcana are supposed to carry them through to high level along side the full casters, but they fail to hit the mark. The warlock having essentially auto-upcasting of all spells to 5th level is decent, and on par with about where full casters can "spam" upcast spells, since 6+ level slots are extremely limited. However, Mystic Arcana don't upcast, and are once per day. So not only are they things you're going to sit there and say, "Well, I could cast this now, but I could have a bigger fight later that I should save it for," but they're going to never get the cooler upcast abilities that some of the spells you might select would allow.

Moreover, you're locked into specifically spells of the listed level; you can't learn, say, major image as a 6th level spell as your first Mystic Arcanum. This would actually be pretty worthwhile, because the upcast to that level makes a permanent illusion. These become useful tools you can use throughout your career, even without Malleable Illusions.

All of this combined makes Mystic Arcanum a fairly weak set of abilities compared to things other classes are getting, and they don't scale at all. If you haven't splashed out by this point, the temptation will be high to do so for something that will scale immediately better.

Hmm. I actually think things are easier later. The extra spell slot at level 11 is huge. You also mention hanging on to resources in case there is a bigger fight later - which was always the problem I found with warlock. If you can't control what fights you have and when, you can't actively manage your resources so ye need to keep something back for emergencies (unless your DM is giving you an easy game). With three spells and mystic arcana in reserve you can afford to be a bit more trigger happy and warlocks get to go into a long rest with fewer spell slots left unspent.

I am not saying arcana are as good as knowing spells and the flexibility they provide; warlocks do not get as good leveled spell-casting as full casters but they still get some perks.

[Spiritchaser]

I currently have 1 full warlock at my table. He does just fine in terms of power (pure hexblade Elven accuracy GWM Darkness or Moil murderlock).

The long rest short rest tension in the party can be real, and from a game design point of view, I think it’s unnecessary and relatively uninteresting... but it generally works out.

On one mission where the pacing consistently didn’t go the way I expected, I attacked them during some long rests. The warlock was at full strength a few times when his companions weren’t, and that was enough to bring the scales back into balance...

Well... close enough.

[EdenIndustries]

I would happily play a Warlock until at least level 17, maybe 18 for the 8th Invocation. Probably not to 20 though, since the capstone leaves a lot to be desired.

But consider a level 17 Celestial Warlock, pact of the tome.

Right off the bat you have 17 bonus-action heals per day which aren't spells. That's great! Granted, most of your benefit will come from ping-pong healing those that drop to 0. But hey, for that purpose you're amazing.

Consider the level 10 feature of the Celestial Warlock. Every short rest you can pump everyone full of temporary hitpoints (essentially the Inspiring Leader feat for free).

The level 14 feature is also great to keep you on your feet and in the fight.

Then, Pact of the Tome means you get rituals a-plenty. And of course to get all of them you need to be at least level 9, so that's another good reason to be at least a level 9 Warlock.

Now let's look at some of the tasty invocations you can get only at Warlock level 15+:

1. Visions of Distant Realms - This is awesome! At-will casting of Arcane Eye, one of the most powerful (or possibly THE most powerful) dungeon exploring spells. Information is power!
2. Shroud of Shadow - At-will Invisibility? Surely we can all think of some great uses for that!
3. Master of Myriad Forms - At-will Alter Self? Yes please! I'm a bit of a sucker for utility, I admit, hence why I love all the rituals and these great at-will spells. But this is just so fun. With this and the above 2 invocations, you can explore an entire dungeon, and then be either invisible or in a helpful form to infiltrate it whenever you want, switching back and forth as it pleases you. So cool!

Honourable Mention goes to Chains of Carceri. In the right campaign (Descent into Avernus, anyone?), this is bonkers good!

Call me crazy, but that package of invocations is an extremely tantalizing set of reasons to head to at least level 15 in Warlock! Of course Warlock has other great invocations as well. Toss Misty Visions and Whispers of the Grave on there and with your Book of Ancient Secrets invocation you're casting so many at-will spells you're able to do so, so much. Maybe not a DPS monster, but good grief you have so many options it's staggering!

And let's not forget that you have your Mystic Arcanum to cast high-level spells, and you can cast 4 5th-level spells per short rest. That's awesome! Toss around up-casted Banishment, blast the battlefield with Synaptic Static. 4 times per short rest! So much fun!

In conclusion - (mostly) single-classed Warlock? Sign me up!!

[sithlordnergal]

I have played a single classed warlock before. It was a ton of fun flavor wise, but it was probably my least favorite character I have played. They're boring one trick ponies. They can be built to do different tricks, but once you choose your build you can't really do anything outside of your one thing because Warlocks don't have the resources.

I have always been of the opinion that warlocks need one extra spell slot at 5th level, and one extra invocation. The whole "spell slots come back on a short rest" argument falls flat for one major reason. Compared to every other short rest class in the game, from fighters and monks to moon druids, the warlock is the only short rest class that wants/needs more rests then what I give to the party. My system works perfectly for every single other class except the Warlock.

[KorvinStarmast]

My Pact of the Chain Fey Lock was single class.
Entertainer background.

We had no rogue, so I became the default scout for the party.

[jaappleton]

I have. However, my table also uses a short rest spell point variant.

So a 5th level Warlock has two 3rd level slots, right? Each of those, according to the spell point DMG variant, is worth 5 spell points.

Therefore, every short rest, the Warlock gets 10 Spell Points. This lets them be short rest oriented while being more flexible, enabling them to cast low level spells with low level cost.

"How do you work Invocations that require the use of a spell slot?"
It costs as much as it normally would. So Sculptor of Flesh, which casts Polymorph, costs 7 points. But its still restricted to a once per long rest casting.

[Sception]

I don't, personally. After a few levels, it Just feels kind lacking in utility without at least a few static, low level slots once the pact slots have moved past 2nd level spells, and in campaigns where I've been a player there's rarely been opportunity for more than one short rest per day.
Even /one/ short rest has sometimes been too much to ask, and in those sorts of games the pact magic slots just don't go very far. In a game with a more typical rest schedule, invocations and tome pact for rituals can help cover the gap, but not quite enough for my subjective taste.

As such, whenever I play a warlock, I always multiclass in at least a few levels of paladin, bard, or sorcerer somewhere in the progression to give me a few extra low level slots on a daily timer to work with.

That said, plenty of other people do play them single classed. I've seen a few in games I've played in, and someone is playing a single classed hexblade in an eberron game I'm currently running. They're level 5 now, and it seems to have been working fine for them.

[Porkslope]

One of my players ran a warlock in a game that ran from 1 to 7 and did really well. If I were to play a warlock, I'd definitely go single class all the way from 1 to 20.

[RSP]

Warlocks are great through 11, when you get the extra Pact Magic slot. Not sure there’s as much incentive past that as multiclassing benefits start to outweigh the single-class benefits passed the ASI at 12 (and Lifedrinker if Bladelock).

Even if you really want the level 14 Patron ability, there’s a lot more you can get from 6 levels in other classes than in staying Warlock through 20.

[EdenIndustries]

I don't, personally. After a few levels, it Just feels kind lacking in utility without at least a few static, low level slots once the pact slots have moved past 2nd level spells, and in campaigns where I've been a player there's rarely been opportunity for more than one short rest per day.

I guess it depends on what kind of utility you're looking for, but starting from level 2 you can have at-will Silent Image and Disguise Self. That provides boatloads of utility! And doesn't even rely on short rests!

[Man_Over_Game]

I don't, personally. After a few levels, it Just feels kind lacking in utility without at least a few static, low level slots once the pact slots have moved past 2nd level spells, and in campaigns where I've been a player there's rarely been opportunity for more than one short rest per day.
Even /one/ short rest has sometimes been too much to ask, and in those sorts of games the pact magic slots just don't go very far. In a game with a more typical rest schedule, invocations and tome pact for rituals can help cover the gap, but not quite enough for my subjective taste.

As such, whenever I play a warlock, I always multiclass in at least a few levels of paladin, bard, or sorcerer somewhere in the progression to give me a few extra low level slots on a daily timer to work with.

That said, plenty of other people do play them single classed. I've seen a few in games I've played in, and someone is playing a single classed hexblade in an eberron game I'm currently running. They're level 5 now, and it seems to have been working fine for them.

This is generally what I witness, too.

Warlocks are Fine...as long as the group needs/uses Short Rests. More often than not, they don't.

Did some number-crunching a while back. Seems like most Short Rest classes (Fighters, Warlocks) break even with Long Rest classes (Paladins, Wizards) around the 2nd Short Rest.

That is, if a party has <2 Short Rest with a Paladin and a Fighter of similar builds, the Paladin will almost always be better.

The Warlock and Fighter started doing better at the 3rd Short Rest. But...who's ever heard of that ever happening?


The numbers I used were comparing level 5 characters, having a Short Rest between each fight, no feats, in fights that lasted 4 rounds each. Pretty standard stuff, I think.

[sithlordnergal]

.
Did some number-crunching a while back. Seems like most Short Rest classes (Fighters, Warlocks) break even with Long Rest classes (Paladins, Wizards) around the 2nd Short Rest.

You're mostly spot on. I've found from running and playing, most short rest classes break even at about 2 to 3 rests. Warlocks tend to break even and work when they have 3 to 4 short rests, or short rest after every encounter. Which is why I feel they need to be fixed so badly...they need double the short rests of everyone else because they have so few meaningful at will abilities outside of cantrips.

I find giving the Warlock one extra spell slot and invocation at level 5 fixes it

[Segev]

You're mostly spot on. I've found from running and playing, most short rest classes break even at about 2 to 3 rests. Warlocks tend to break even and work when they have 3 to 4 short rests, or short rest after every encounter. Which is why I feel they need to be fixed so badly...they need double the short rests of everyone else because they have so few meaningful at will abilities outside of cantrips.

I find giving the Warlock one extra spell slot and invocation at level 5 fixes it

I can see the extra spell slot contributing to this situation, but I'm not sure how an extra invocation has bearing on staying power wrt short rest count.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I can see the extra spell slot contributing to this situation, but I'm not sure how an extra invocation has bearing on staying power wrt short rest count.

Depends on what the invocation is used for. Extra utility is usually wanted but its hard (at least in my mind) to justify it when there is extra damage to be had. Extra invocation at low-mid levels helps alot.

[Particle_Man]

I have two single class Warlocks in the campaign I DM. Mind you, I banned multi-classing. :smallbiggrin:

In the campaign I play in there has been a few single classed warlocks but they both died so I don't know if they would have multi-classed before level 20.

[sophontteks]

You're mostly spot on. I've found from running and playing, most short rest classes break even at about 2 to 3 rests. Warlocks tend to break even and work when they have 3 to 4 short rests, or short rest after every encounter. Which is why I feel they need to be fixed so badly...they need double the short rests of everyone else because they have so few meaningful at will abilities outside of cantrips.

I find giving the Warlock one extra spell slot and invocation at level 5 fixes it
They have the best at-will abilities, the strongest cantrip, and the ability to boost it to martial levels of single-target DPS. They don't need two spells per encounter. That's broken. With 2 short rests a warlock is casting twice as many max level spells as a wizard, and they can put out the DPS of a martial with their cantrip, and they still retain all the extra utility from invocations and pacts. Post level 10 the warlocks shift to casting more spells per encounter/day albiet they can't cast as many spells > level 5.

The problem is that it is difficult for players to take advantage of all the different parts of a warlock's kit. They are a gish of sorts with a ton of utility. They have several combo's available that teeter towards broken on their own like:

Mask of Many faces + Actor + Invisible familiar = Use familiar to scout ahead, listen to conversations, gather information, and generally do everything necessary to make a convincing disguise. Cast disguise-self at-will. Use actor to mimic voice and gain advantage on disguise checks.

Eldritch blast + Darkness + Devils sight + Elven accuracy = Cast darkness on a small object before combat and put the object in your bag. Darkness lasts 10 minutes and is de-activated when completely covered. During combat remove the object as a free action and roll three times for each EB. Doubles as a defensive tool. Enemies have disadvantage and can't make reactions against you.

Hex + Maddening Hex + Sign of ill Omen + Invisible Familiar = Upcasted hex lasts 8-24 hours, so just kill something and short rest. Fiend warlocks don't rely on concentration, so I recommend them for this. Maddening Hex increases DPS even further. At level 9 Sign of I'll Omen no longer requires concentration. The familiar can deliver the spell without breaking invisibility. Use maddening hex on cursed target out of combat and watch the chaos erupt. There is nothing that gives away that warlock is the source of the damage.

The class is fine, it just favors players with the experience to take advantage of everything they have to offer. They aren't a plug and play class like a fighter.

[alchahest]

in a game that recently finished, one of the players was a fey pact chain lock, and had fun and contributed through all levels. never really felt like he was left behind.

[Cerefel]

I've played a warlock (fey-pact chainlock) from levels 1-11 and didn't really have any problems. However, the other warlock player at that table was suffering a bit because he was less careful about how he used his spell slots, and he regularly started fights with no spells left. He was playing a blade-pact hexblade and usually burnt spell slots on smite spells.

[Endal]

My daughter plays a Warlock at level 12. She's actually rather powerful and a great addition to our group.

The short rest recovery helps out a lot since she gets a ton of spell slots per day (we have a rule of at least two short rests per long rest when we dungeon crawl) so she can unload massive damage. Even if her spell slots run out, she's doing (3)1d10+6 damage per Eldritch Blast she fires at 1-3 targets (technically better than our fighter who does (3)1d8+8 since she can target someone hundreds of feet away. Her ritual spells keep the party generally safe since most of them are performed during short rests to boost the team.

Her HP is pretty solid and her AR is on par with our rogues since she can cast mage armor on herself at will.

This is her first character (she wanted to be a witch) and her real power comes from her spell slots. She's LOADED with control powers and the like and keeps the DM completely flustered since he's running a module that she seems to be built for (nothing resists her, nothing seems to hurt her).

On the whole, I think a pure Warlock would be a great character to play because I've seen one be played rather well. She's a monster in combat and having 20 CHA and proficiency in Persuasion, Performance, and Intimidation makes her nearly unstoppable in RP situations.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I find few of my players even like multiclassing. It looks fun on paper until you remember that you're liable to play several sessions until you get a chance to get another level, and that can mean that a two level dip sets you back months before you get your next spell level.

I get a warlock in about 80% of all of my parties, both as a DM and as a player, and not a single one has ever multiclassed.

[Sception]

I guess it depends on what kind of utility you're looking for, but starting from level 2 you can have at-will Silent Image and Disguise Self. That provides boatloads of utility! And doesn't even rely on short rests!

Like I said, invocations, and in particular the pact of the tome invocation for rituals, can help a lot here. But they only go so far. After all, a warlock does not get very many to work with, and fun utility invocations have to share space with the ones that power your primary combat contributions, which can be problematic in early to mid levels, and is especially so for bladelocks. Again, invocations /do/ help, and the hexblade in the game I'm running gets a lot of mileage out of mask of many faces, but when I play a warlock I personally still feel strongly pushed towards picking up a few static low level spell slots to help out.


Mask of Many faces + Actor + Invisible familiar =

Eldritch blast + Darkness + Devils sight + Elven accuracy =

Hex + Maddening Hex + Sign of ill Omen + Invisible Familiar =

These are all fine gimmicks, but they're relatively narrow, and require the investment of multiple build resources in terms of invocations, spells known, spells cast, and even feats in a class that doesn't have have a lot of slack in free choices to make from /any/ of those categories, especially early on. The character spamming eldritch blast from darkness really needs to also pick up agonizing blast to make that worth while, and then between agonizing blast and devil's sight they've burned all of their invocations before level 5 on combat ability, leaving none spare for utility stuff like mask of many faces or misty visions or book of ancient secrets or the like until 5th level, and even then that's not a lot to work with. And since you've invested so much into the darkness gimmick, you won't be using your actual spell slots for much else. You still have patron features to fall back on, but depending on the patron those might also just boil down to more combat modifiers, not really adding to non-combat options or versatility in or out of combat.

a couple of these combos also rely on taking pact of the chain, which is fine and cool, I like chain pact aesthetically, but taking pact of the chain means you aren't taking pact of the tome and thus aren't taking book of ancient secrets, and that given how much utility and variety coming out of a single invocation (utility including a familiar that can do nearly everything the chain familiar can *other* than turn invisible), is kind of hard to justify if you're a warlock who is at all concerned with versatility and non-combat utility to begin with.

And speaking of boon choice, things are even worse for bladelocks, who have not one obligatory invocation tax for basic competence in combat, but three. At least. Plus they're heavily pushed into a single patron, which, while a fine patron in and of itself, only further limits the functional versatility of the class.


I want to stress, this is mostly personal taste stuff. Again, I've played with and run games for other players who were perfectly happy playing single classed warlocks. You can absolutely put out a meaningful combat contribution, and eventually you also have enough invocation to have a meaningful variety of neat magical things you can do out of combat - though by the time you have both, around 9th to 12th level, the class seems to start offering less and less for continued leveling, which is an entirely different motivation to think about multiclassing. But the same could be said for some other classes - paladin for instance - that I'm perfectly happy taking all the way to 20, so again this is personal taste as much as anything else.


So are there changes to warlock that I'd like to see? Yeah, sure, of course. I'd like to see eldritch blast as a class feature, rather than a cantrip. I'd like to see hex warrior as a feature of blade boon, not hex patron. I'd like to see the Lifedrinker invocation include the effect of Thirsting Blade, so that bladelocks of 12th level could swap one for the other instead of needing both at the same time. I'd like to see +1 invocation total, given at 3rd level, so that low level warlocks could get past the combat taxes and into the neat utility gimmicks earlier, and I'd like to see more weird utility type invocations to choose from in general - like, whatever happened to that 'speak with dead' invocation from UA? I know they scrapped the raven queen patron, but that would have been a great stand alone invocation. I'd like to see higher level warlocks gain a few static low level daily spell uses in what would effectively be a sort of "lesser mystic arcanum" so that your character's signature low level spells can still matter after your pact magic slots have outgrown them. I'd like to see the "cast these spells once a day" invocations not take up pact magic slots. I'd like to see the undying patron completely rewritten. I'd like to see new pact boons as well. Maybe an animated shadow, sort of like the trickery cleric's CD, that would let you cast spells for you from a distance? I think a fair bit could be done with that idea, though I suppose it could also be implemented as an alternative familiar option for pact of the chain.

Sure some of that would be a power boost, but imo not an extreme one. Not one that would put them out of step with other classes, even if you think their current power level is fine. Combat wise, none of that is going to do much to increase a warlock's damage output beyond the current standard set by 'agonizing eldritch blast with advantage'. But it would make the class just a lot more enjoyable *to me* without having to resort to multiclassing, while also discourage multiclassing somewhat by tying eldritch blast to warlock level rather than character level, and making cha-based-melee-attacks a 3 level dip instead of a 1 level dip - still attainable for those who want it (as it was originally via tomelock shillelagh), but requiring a more substantial commitment to the class. The change would also decouple bladelock from hexblade patron. the hex patron would still have relevant patron features and spells, but green knights and hell blades would be more attractive options.


Again, though, key word there is *to me*. That's mostly just a wishlist of personal taste changes that would improve my own quality of life when rolling a warlock. None of it is stuff I think the class out-and-out "needs". I don't think it's "broken" as it is. To me, it just feels a little lackluster on its own. I'd like to see these sorts of changes to spruce it up, but in the mean time I replicate the changes I'd like to see in the class via multiclassing.

Or, especially in games where multiclassing isn't allowed, I just play something else.

[sophontteks]

These are all fine gimmicks, but they're relatively narrow, and require the investment of multiple build resources in terms of invocations, spells known, spells cast, and even feats in a class that doesn't have have a lot of slack in free choices to make from /any/ of those categories, especially early on.
Uh huh, they are Gimmicks like divine smite and fireball are gimmicks. Which is to say they aren't gimmicks at all. A good warlock should make sure their various resources work well together. That's not a problem, that's the solution.

I know a lot of people speak highly of tome. I think Tome is over-rated as it requires both an invocation and a pact boon. I'd take the invisible flying shape-shifting familiar any day and not worry about limited invocations. The invisible familiar is a truely unique and powerful warlock feature. The Rituals just come off as wannabe wizard to me. Best to flaunt what makes you unique then try to mimic the abilities of other classes.

[Daghoulish]

Uh huh, they are Gimmicks like divine smite and fireball are gimmicks. Which is to say they aren't gimmicks at all. A good warlock should make sure their various resources work well together. That's not a problem, that's the solution.

I know a lot of people speak highly of tome. I think Tome is over-rated as it requires both an invocation and a pact boon. I'd take the invisible flying shape-shifting familiar any day and not worry about limited invocations. The invisible familiar is a truely unique and powerful warlock feature. The Rituals just come off as wannabe wizard to me. Best to flaunt what makes you unique then try to mimic the abilities of other classes.

Except they kinda are gimmicks even compared to divine smite and fireball. Any spellcaster with fireball can do so much more than just fireball, even sorcerers. Comparing a spell to taking 2/3rd's of what makes your character a character and laser focusing them to a specific thing is a gimmick. Especially when your response is "Well, I like the familiar and it's good so you should too!". That's not proving that it's not a gimmick, it's just showing what you like. Paladins get auras, channel divinitys, all martial weapons, all armor, and smite. Your warlock has their thing they do and only that because you laser focused your invocations to only do one thing, which isn't bad but trying to say your not investing almost your entire character to do one thing is a falsity.

As for tome, how is having access to all rituals from any class a "wannabe wizard"? Wizards can't cast the cleric or druid rituals but a warlock can, giving him far more versatility than a wizard. Alongside 2 extra cantrips also from any class and you can customize that for some real fun times.

[Man_Over_Game]

A lot of good stuff

Well said. I feel the same way. There are about 2 "builds" you see Warlocks play, despite having the most customizable class, with 6 patrons, 3 boons, spells, and a massive number of invocations to choose from.

We really shouldn't be seeing the same 2 Warlocks day-in and day-out.

Personally, I'd just butcher the HExblade and put the melee features into the Blade Pact itself, so that every Patron can make a melee build. Then just doctor up the Hexblade's level 1 features to be a curse specialist, and now you have about 8 new builds to play with.

Then just change Eldritch Blast to be a cantrip that deals the damage type that you choose at level 1, and you gain additional attacks with it at Warlock levels 5, 11, and 17. Then allow the element you pick to deal damage based off of this list:


Poison/Slashing/Bludgeoning/Piercing: 1d12
Fire/Cold/Thunder/Lightning: 1d10
Acid/Necrotic/Radiant/Force: 1d8


Then maybe have invocations that only work with certain elements from all of your cantrips. For example, Repelling Blast only works with Bludgeoning, Thunder or Force damage from cantrips (so Thunderclap is now a weaker Thunderwave).

[Sception]

Uh huh, they are Gimmicks like divine smite and fireball are gimmicks. Which is to say they aren't gimmicks at all.

I didn't mean gimmicks in a disparaging sense. So yeah, they're gimmicks like fireball is a gimmick. But fireball is just one spell of many a wizard has prepared, a list that can be changed day to day. Warlock by comparison knows has few invocations and spells known, which they can trade out only when they level, and only one pact boon which cannot be changed ever. There's a lack of versatility there which, while I agree it doesn't 'break' the class or render it unplayable or even unenjoyable, I do find it a bit lacking.


A good warlock should make sure their various resources work well together. That's not a problem, that's the solution.

The same would be true if a warlock had one more invocation. Or one less. Or two less. If a warlock only got to pick two invocations over the last couple levels of the class, I think you'd agree with me that would be too few. If they got to pick 25 at level 2, I'd agree with you that would be too many. So clearly there's a spectrum from 'too few / too slow" to "too many / too fast", with the right number where the warlock has enough invocations to have a decent array of options while while still being few enough to force some character defining choices, and not getting too many too quickly so as to be overwhelming to a new player or too easily dippable.

I personally think the core distribution of that stuff it just a touch behind where it should be. You don't. That's a matter of taste. Not much point arguing it, really. The same goes for spells known (in addition to the previous changes I'd like to see, I wouldn't mind if patron spells were automatically known, not just available-to-select), slots available (again I'd like a few static low level 'mystic arcana' to compliment the high level arcana as pact magic leaves the lower level slots behind), etc. I don't think the power level and in particular the numbers (ac, damage, etc) of individual lock abilities needs to be brought up, but having a couple more to choose from would be nice.


I know a lot of people speak highly of tome. I think Tome is over-rated as it requires both an invocation and a pact boon. I'd take the invisible flying shape-shifting familiar any day and not worry about limited invocations. The invisible familiar is a truely unique and powerful warlock feature. The Rituals just come off as wannabe wizard to me. Best to flaunt what makes you unique then try to mimic the abilities of other classes.

If your party already has a wizard, sure. Personally, I find many partys don't, and when they don't the utility offered by tome is a significant boon to the party and does a lot for making my warlocks feel less like 'few trick ponies'. Getting access to four cantrips that are always available and an ever growing pool of rituals that are available any time the party has 10 minutes to themselves goes a fair ways towards adding that sense of versatility and utility that I find to be just a bit lacking in the warlock compared to most other classes, other casters in particular.

invisible familiar (that is also smarter, and can talk, and has hands to manipulate objects - being invisible is far from the only significant advantage of an imp or w/e over an owl) is great and has a lot of neat uses.

That said, if invisibility is critical, a tome lock can always choose invisibility as one of their spells (it's a decent spell after all, and scales well with slot level, which is important for locks) and just cast it on their normal familiar. It lasts a whole hour to scout with, and if you're scouting from safety before entering a dangerous area you might even be able to short rest the slot back afterwards.

Again, the chain familiar has other benefits too - an invisible raven has a much harder time with door knobs than an imp. Plus limited spells known and spell slots (when you can't just rest, which is most of the time ime) mean that a familiar that is just invisible to start is obviously superior to one you have to cast the spell on. Still, though, having the cut-rate version of the invisible flying scout AND guidance AND message AND no-slot detect magic AND tiny hut AND water walking/breathing etc etc. For me having those extra options to choose from is more enjoyable than having just one option, even if that one option is super good.

Again, more a matter of preference than anything else. I don't personally think the chain pact is bad, or needs a buff or anything. I wouldn't accuse anyone who picked chain of making a bad or even suboptimal choice. But as a matter of taste, as already well established, I'd personally prefer for a warlock to have access to a few more abilities that they could draw on at any given time in any given situation, and for those who feel similarly tome pact does do an admirable job of helping make up that difference. It doesn't get all the way there for me, I still multiclass my own locks at least a few levels into bard or sorcerer (or paladin, for bladelocks), but still.

[Sception]

[QUOTE=Man_Over_Game;23957834]Personally, I'd just butcher the HExblade and put the melee features into the Blade Pact itself, so that every Patron can make a melee build. Then just doctor up the Hexblade's level 1 features to be a curse specialist, and now you have about 8 new builds to play with.[/quote[

Don't even have to do much to hexblade to make it a workable cursing patron without the melee stuff. Hexblade's curse is pretty equivalent to what any other patron grants at first level. You may or may not want to mess with the spell list a bit, but otherwise "remove hex warrior from hexblade, add it to blade boon" is about all you need to do there.

The first couple levels of a bladelock's career go back to being a bit awkward, though, as they basically have to live as blasters then transition to melee/gishiness at third level. Not sure if there's a good solution to that. I personally wouldn't be inclined to give every warlock medium armor or shield proficiency out of the gate, even if I think all bladelocks should have it regardless of patron by level 3.

As for your eldritch blast suggestions, again I'd personally make it a class feature and not a cantrip, so it isn't as weird when it doesn't work like other cantrips.

Maybe even rework the 'attack with charisma' bit from hex warrior to instead just let bladelocks use eldritch blast as a melee spell attack instead of a ranged spell attack, using their pact blade as an implement?

Eh, that's getting a bit into the weeds.

[Man_Over_Game]

Don't even have to do much to hexblade to make it a workable cursing patron without the melee stuff. Hexblade's curse is pretty equivalent to what any other patron grants at first level. You may or may not want to mess with the spell list a bit, but otherwise "remove hex warrior from hexblade, add it to blade boon" is about all you need to do there.

The first couple levels of a bladelock's career go back to being a bit awkward, though, as they basically have to live as blasters then transition to melee/gishiness at third level. Not sure if there's a good solution to that. I personally wouldn't be inclined to give every warlock medium armor or shield proficiency out of the gate, even if I think all bladelocks should have it regardless of patron by level 3.

As for your eldritch blast suggestions, again I'd personally make it a class feature and not a cantrip, so it isn't as weird when it doesn't work like other cantrips.

Maybe even rework the 'attack with charisma' bit from hex warrior to instead just let bladelocks use eldritch blast as a melee spell attack instead of a ranged spell attack, using their pact blade as an implement?

Eh, that's getting a bit into the weeds.

I mean, it's not any different than a Valor Bard getting medium armor, or a character picking up the Tough feat out of nowhere. The Rogue doesn't get much melee support until level 3, too, and doesn't get any tankier until level 5.

Your suggestion on Eldritch Blast being a melee attack wouldn't be a bad idea. Just make it so that your conjured Pact Weapon deals the same kind and amount of damage as Eldritch Blast with Versatile (deals 1 die smaller when wielded with one hand), and require it to use Charisma for the damage. This ends up being somewhat of a nerf to the melee Warlock, as a Fighter increases both his AC and his damage by stacking Dexterity or Strength, but a Warlock wouldn't get that benefit.

[sophontteks]

Except they kinda are gimmicks even compared to divine smite and fireball. Any spellcaster with fireball can do so much more than just fireball, even sorcerers. Comparing a spell to taking 2/3rd's of what makes your character a character and laser focusing them to a specific thing is a gimmick. Especially when your response is "Well, I like the familiar and it's good so you should too!". That's not proving that it's not a gimmick, it's just showing what you like. Paladins get auras, channel divinitys, all martial weapons, all armor, and smite. Your warlock has their thing they do and only that because you laser focused your invocations to only do one thing, which isn't bad but trying to say your not investing almost your entire character to do one thing is a falsity.

As for tome, how is having access to all rituals from any class a "wannabe wizard"? Wizards can't cast the cleric or druid rituals but a warlock can, giving him far more versatility than a wizard. Alongside 2 extra cantrips also from any class and you can customize that for some real fun times.
When you can see through your own darkness, darkness is a superior version of greater invisibility that lasts 10 times longer and can be turned on and off as a free action. Its not only working as an amazing defensive skill, its enabling your DPS to rival martials. That is not a gimmick.

You are denying that these are actually effective, and your argument is because they require you to focus some of your resources on them. It's not convincing me. Show me that these "gimmicks" aren't effective. If they are effective, they aren't a gimmick, they are an effective tool from which someone can build a character around. It's the people who just randomly pick invocations who don't get to realize just what they can do for a party.

[sithlordnergal]

Uh huh, they are Gimmicks like divine smite and fireball are gimmicks. Which is to say they aren't gimmicks at all. A good warlock should make sure their various resources work well together. That's not a problem, that's the solution.

The issue is they're only one gimmick that you have to heavily invest in, and you lack the resources to become a super well rounded jack of all trades. Instead you're honed to a fine point, but are severely hampered in a majority of other places. Just looking at your examples, the first one takes your boon, which is basically half a subclass on its own, a feat, and one of your invocations...to do a thing a Lore Bard could do, and would likely do it better.

Your second one is a gimmick that works and takes heavy investment, requiring your Concentration, spell slots every encounter, an invocation, and a feat. And you'll probably want Agonizing Blast, so make it two invocations. All for a trick that gets shut down with Dispel Magic, True Sight, Tremmorsense, or really anything that has a special vision except normal dark vision and can hamper your allies.

Your third is extremely good, but it is still a one trick pony, and relies on your familiar. Which, as a player and DM, most DMs, including myself, will target a familiar. Be it with AoEs or targeted attacks. Also, I'm curious, are you using Greater Invisibility to keep the familiar invisible? I know Imps have the Invisibility spell, but Bestow Curse is a spell. Since when you cast a familiar they "deliver the spell as if they had cast it", that would break their invisibility. Which would instantly make them a target for everyone in the room that has any sort of intelligence.


As for your comparisons to Divine Smite and Fireball, sure they are technically gimmicks...but those two gimmicks take up fewer resources and the classes can do far more. A Wizard may use Fireball as their main spell, and a Paladin may use Divine Smite over any of their paladin spells, but those are not resource heavy. You can still rely on Fireball as an Wizard, but unlike your Warlock Builds that take the one Pact Boon you get, a feat, and sometimes multiple invocations, the Wizard takes a single prepared spell. Same with the Paladin. Those are gimmicks with no actual cost outside of when you use them

[sithlordnergal]

When you can see through your own darkness, darkness is a superior version of greater invisibility that lasts 10 times longer and can be turned on and off as a free action. Its not only working as an amazing defensive skill, its enabling your DPS to rival martials. That is not a gimmick.

You are denying that these are actually effective, and your argument is because they require you to focus some of your resources on them. It's not convincing me. Show me that these "gimmicks" aren't effective. If they are effective, they aren't a gimmick, they are an effective tool from which someone can build a character around. It's the people who just randomly pick invocations who don't get to realize just what they can do for a party.

Ok, your Darkness Gimmick:

It is a strong gimmick, I won't deny that. I feel it takes up too many of your limited resources, but I will agree that it is very effective...in a white room. In actual play...not as much. And I'm saying that as a player who had a Warlock centered around that gimmick. Let me explain how the DM got around it:

- First, it is a gimmick that helps you out, but hampers the party. They now have a 15ft radius area that they cannot make use of. If you position yourself wrong, a party member is forced to enter it, or if an enemy hides in your Darkness, the rest of your party can do little to help. Sure, you can see your enemies, but your allies can't.

-Second, I have a level 1 spell that will shut down your Darkness advantage: Fog Cloud. Or really any spell that creates heavy obscurement that isn't magical darkness. Congrats, all those limited invocations you spent, and the two spell slots you get till the next short rest, wasted.

- Third, I find Darkness has the same issue as Fear effects and Poison. Its strong for a while, but eventually almost everything you fight will have a way to ignore the effects of magical Darkness. Things start having Truesight, Blindsight, Tremor Sense, ect. I will admit, Darkness loses its effectiveness much later on then any of the others. Poison becomes pointless around the middle of Tier 2, Fear is useless around Tier 3, and Darkness loses its effectiveness at the tail end of Tier 3. But its still not something that you want to build around if you think you're going all the way to 20.

- Four, I have three spells for you. Dispel Magic, Daylight, Sunbeam. Basically if its a spell that makes Light that's above 2nd level, your Darkness is gone. If a caster uses Dispel Magic, your Darkness is gone. You only have two spell slots this encounter, will you risk wasting it on another Darkness? Because unless you're playing with a poor DM, you cannot guarantee a short rest after the encounter.

----

Again, they are effective. But I would still classify them as a gimmick. Why? Because you're putting most of your resources into being able to do one thing really, really well. But without that one thing, you don't have the flexibility to suddenly swap to a different strategy. Its like a Barbarian/Rogue built to be a Grappler. They can be an expert at it, they can be super effective, and it can be an extremely strong build. You could restrain two enemies and drag them around where ever you want. But its a gimmick, because they had to put their ability score to strength, take Athletics, Expertise Athletics, and potentially take the Grappler Feat. And like your Darkness Warlock, all it takes is one enemy being too big to grapple or immune to being grappled, and now their finely crafted build is useless.

[Solusek]

I think a big part of the single class warlock problem has to do with most tables not playing beyond level 10. Warlock is at its weakest between levels 6-10. At a time when other classes are continuing to ramp up. At a time when a lot of campaigns are hitting their climax. The warlock is struggling with only 2 spells.

If you can get to level 11+ where 3 spells/short rest is acquired and mystic arcana start being learned things get a lot better for the warlock. I wouldn't hesitate to play one in a 20 level campaign. If I thought the campaign would end at level 10 or earlier then I would probably steer clear of the warlock.

[Sception]

The problem with high level warlock is that right about when the warlock starts having enough stuff (for my personal, subjective taste) - enough invocations to have the ones they need for baseline offense AND several others to flesh out their defensive, utility, and non-combat options, and enough spells to comfortably cast one around once per combat even in campaigns that only tend to get one short rest per combat day, that's when dramatically slow the rate of new stuff they're going to get.

I mean, yeah, arcana are strong, and regular casters don't exactly get to cast more per day, but they get to know more, and four 1/day abilities, even if those abilities are high level spells, has a hard time comparing to everything you'd get from the first several levels in most any other class. And while you do get other stuff, for a lot of people it doesn't quite make up the difference (by the time you've hit 12ish level, you probably already have all the invocations and spells known you need for the character, the 4th pact slot isn't as desperately needed as the 3rd, later patron features, while some are nice, aren't generally as character defining as the earlier features, etc).

It's not /as big/ a problem as just not having quite enough stuff to do before that point, imo, and it's not a problem unique to warlocks. Paladin is my personal favorite class, and many paladin builds also feel like they hit a point of diminishing returns - though where exactly they hit that point will vary to taste (after 'improved find steed' for some, after 'improved divine smite' for others, as early as 'aura of protection' for many).


So even at these high levels, I still personally feel like gaining access to a few daily low level spells would be nice. Several of those were specifically made to be useful in low level slots all campaign long, and warlock feels like it's missing out there, at least to me.

Again, mixed in with the current mystic arcana i'd personally like to see a few lesser arcana that work exactly the same way, except for low level spells. Since it would work the same way, you wouldn't even have to call it anything different. Like add "Mystic Arcana (1st)" to levels 9, 12, and 14, and "Mystic Arcana (2nd)" to levels 16 and 18, specifying that for multiple choices of the same spell level you can choose different spells, or you can choose a spell you have already chosen again for extra uses.

Maybe even add additional, level-restricted invocations for additional low-level mystic arcana that a warlock can select in later invocation slots if they already have all the invocations they might want for their character by that point.

[RSP]

The problem with high level warlock is that right about when the warlock starts having enough stuff (for my personal, subjective taste) - enough invocations to have the ones they need for baseline offense AND several others to flesh out their defensive, utility, and non-combat options, and enough spells to comfortably cast one around once per combat even in campaigns that only tend to get one short rest per combat day, that's when dramatically slow the rate of new stuff they're going to get.


Agreed. Warlock 11 or 12 kind of caps where they’re really getting good stuff. From there, I find, giving those levels to another class, or classes, is more effective.

Though if going to 20, it does miss out on higher level spells, which isn’t fun; but really, 8 levels of Paladin on a Bladelock is going to be much more effective than the Arcana. Likewise, a EBing Warlock will benefit a lot from Sorcerer levels, and both give extra spells and castings that really help the character. Bard is good for either, as well as grabbing levels in Fighter or Rogue, even.

Just my opinion, but the other options tend to outweigh the solo class.

[Sception]

The fact that I don't lose all that much later for doing so certainly doesn't help mitigate my inclination to dip into other classes early on with warlock.

Paladin also arguably suffers a bit from diminishing returns, and also has a similar, albeit opposite, resource management issue, both of which combine to push many paladins to multiclass as well - ironically enough often into warlock. But the last few levels of paladin have some big bonuses - aura extension and really high end level 20 capstone abilities - so doing so always feels like it comes with a cost. Far more so than with warlock, in my personal opinion.

Even if you do value the high level arcana - and in themselves they're not at all bad abilities, high level spells are in fact the strongest abilities in the game, even if you are restricted to only knowing one per slot level - the last of those comes at level 17. Nothing at 18, only an asi at 19, and while eldritch master isn't a bad ability, it's not really a capstone that I'd cry over missing out on.

Moving eldritch master to level 18 and adding additional, patron based capstones at 20 might help.

Wouldn't change the overall power of the class in play much, since few games actually happen at those levels, but it would help give warlocks a sense that they're actually losing something by dipping out, even if its something they wouldn't have actually gotten to play with either way, since a lot of players, myself included, like to plan out 20 level progressions even for characters that will only end up getting played from 1 to 7 or so.

[Segev]

Well said. I feel the same way. There are about 2 "builds" you see Warlocks play, despite having the most customizable class, with 6 patrons, 3 boons, spells, and a massive number of invocations to choose from.

We really shouldn't be seeing the same 2 Warlocks day-in and day-out.

Personally, I'd just butcher the HExblade and put the melee features into the Blade Pact itself, so that every Patron can make a melee build. Then just doctor up the Hexblade's level 1 features to be a curse specialist, and now you have about 8 new builds to play with.

Then just change Eldritch Blast to be a cantrip that deals the damage type that you choose at level 1, and you gain additional attacks with it at Warlock levels 5, 11, and 17. Then allow the element you pick to deal damage based off of this list:


Poison/Slashing/Bludgeoning/Piercing: 1d12
Fire/Cold/Thunder/Lightning: 1d10
Acid/Necrotic/Radiant/Force: 1d8


Then maybe have invocations that only work with certain elements from all of your cantrips. For example, Repelling Blast only works with Bludgeoning, Thunder or Force damage from cantrips (so Thunderclap is now a weaker Thunderwave).


The first couple levels of a bladelock's career go back to being a bit awkward, though, as they basically have to live as blasters then transition to melee/gishiness at third level. Not sure if there's a good solution to that. I personally wouldn't be inclined to give every warlock medium armor or shield proficiency out of the gate, even if I think all bladelocks should have it regardless of patron by level 3.
I made my own approach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587734-Turning-the-Hexblade-quot-Patron-quot-into-modular-powers) to making Hexblade make more sense. The nutshell version is that I removed the Patron entirely and did some changes and added some choices to spells and invocations to make it viable to be a nacent bladelock from level 1.


Ok, your Darkness Gimmick:

It is a strong gimmick, I won't deny that. I feel it takes up too many of your limited resources, but I will agree that it is very effective...in a white room. In actual play...not as much. And I'm saying that as a player who had a Warlock centered around that gimmick. Let me explain how the DM got around it:

- First, it is a gimmick that helps you out, but hampers the party. They now have a 15ft radius area that they cannot make use of. If you position yourself wrong, a party member is forced to enter it, or if an enemy hides in your Darkness, the rest of your party can do little to help. Sure, you can see your enemies, but your allies can't.Yes and no: the enemy hiding in your darkness is still unable to see them, just as they're unable to see him. As long as you can direct them to target the right region, they attack with neither advantage nor disadvantage. Heck, this even negates the Disadvantage of attacking from long range! Only if the enemies have means of seeing out of your darkness to where your allies are attacking from is this a problem.


-Second, I have a level 1 spell that will shut down your Darkness advantage: Fog Cloud. Or really any spell that creates heavy obscurement that isn't magical darkness. Congrats, all those limited invocations you spent, and the two spell slots you get till the next short rest, wasted.See above; this just negates you having Advantage (and him having Disadvantage), and means he still needs to leave the area to know where to even try to target. Dispel magic targeted on the fog cloud or gust of wind will also get rid of the fog but not the darkness.


- Third, I find Darkness has the same issue as Fear effects and Poison. Its strong for a while, but eventually almost everything you fight will have a way to ignore the effects of magical Darkness. Things start having Truesight, Blindsight, Tremor Sense, ect. I will admit, Darkness loses its effectiveness much later on then any of the others. Poison becomes pointless around the middle of Tier 2, Fear is useless around Tier 3, and Darkness loses its effectiveness at the tail end of Tier 3. But its still not something that you want to build around if you think you're going all the way to 20. And if this truly becomes an issue, you can change out darkness for something else with the ability that Warlocks have to swap spells known as they level up. Honestly, sounds like the real message here is that Warlocks could do with some higher-level sensory Invocations!


- Four, I have three spells for you. Dispel Magic, Daylight, Sunbeam. Basically if its a spell that makes Light that's above 2nd level, your Darkness is gone. If a caster uses Dispel Magic, your Darkness is gone. You only have two spell slots this encounter, will you risk wasting it on another Darkness? Because unless you're playing with a poor DM, you cannot guarantee a short rest after the encounter.True; you've made them spend a higher-level spell to handle your 2nd level one. Sounds like a pretty good trade to me. If I were building around this, though, I'd look into finding, buying, or even developing and creating a magic item (or set thereof) that constantly generated magical darkness, and thus would restore themselves after being suppressed.


The problem with high level warlock is that right about when the warlock starts having enough stuff (for my personal, subjective taste) - enough invocations to have the ones they need for baseline offense AND several others to flesh out their defensive, utility, and non-combat options, and enough spells to comfortably cast one around once per combat even in campaigns that only tend to get one short rest per combat day, that's when dramatically slow the rate of new stuff they're going to get.

I mean, yeah, arcana are strong, and regular casters don't exactly get to cast more per day, but they get to know more, and four 1/day abilities, even if those abilities are high level spells, has a hard time comparing to everything you'd get from the first several levels in most any other class. And while you do get other stuff, for a lot of people it doesn't quite make up the difference (by the time you've hit 12ish level, you probably already have all the invocations and spells known you need for the character, the 4th pact slot isn't as desperately needed as the 3rd, later patron features, while some are nice, aren't generally as character defining as the earlier features, etc).

It's not /as big/ a problem as just not having quite enough stuff to do before that point, imo, and it's not a problem unique to warlocks. Paladin is my personal favorite class, and many paladin builds also feel like they hit a point of diminishing returns - though where exactly they hit that point will vary to taste (after 'improved find steed' for some, after 'improved divine smite' for others, as early as 'aura of protection' for many).


So even at these high levels, I still personally feel like gaining access to a few daily low level spells would be nice. Several of those were specifically made to be useful in low level slots all campaign long, and warlock feels like it's missing out there, at least to me.

Again, mixed in with the current mystic arcana i'd personally like to see a few lesser arcana that work exactly the same way, except for low level spells. Since it would work the same way, you wouldn't even have to call it anything different. Like add "Mystic Arcana (1st)" to levels 9, 12, and 14, and "Mystic Arcana (2nd)" to levels 16 and 18, specifying that for multiple choices of the same spell level you can choose different spells, or you can choose a spell you have already chosen again for extra uses.

Maybe even add additional, level-restricted invocations for additional low-level mystic arcana that a warlock can select in later invocation slots if they already have all the invocations they might want for their character by that point.


Agreed. Warlock 11 or 12 kind of caps where they’re really getting good stuff. From there, I find, giving those levels to another class, or classes, is more effective.

Though if going to 20, it does miss out on higher level spells, which isn’t fun; but really, 8 levels of Paladin on a Bladelock is going to be much more effective than the Arcana. Likewise, a EBing Warlock will benefit a lot from Sorcerer levels, and both give extra spells and castings that really help the character. Bard is good for either, as well as grabbing levels in Fighter or Rogue, even.

Just my opinion, but the other options tend to outweigh the solo class.
These, however, are the real answer to why we get threads like this: Mystic Arcanum is the primary class feature beyond level 11 or so, and replaces Pact Magic advancement. I understand that the design goal was to cap Pact Magic at level 5, and still give them some 6-9 power, but it fails at that latter. It's too scarce, and it's weird because part of the scarcity, I think, is to make it "feel" like it's really a Big Secret the Patron is sharing. Of course the Patron only shares these sparingly! But real comparison to other classes is that it's not any bigger secret than the Bard or Sorcerer learn, and in fact, the Bard and Sorcerer (the SORCERER) learn as many if not more!

Mystic Arcanum needs to do something more interesting to justify it's "big secret!" fluff, and thus to feel like it's something worth having. As a START, it should auto-upcast to the highest level of any Mystic Arcanum you know. Unfortunately, most of my fixes I have actually diminish the fluff of how "special" it is while potentially being too powerful, so I wouldn't really go with them (e.g. making mystic arcanum be an ability N/day to upcast to the highest level Mystic Arcanum while spending a Warlock spell slot, and learning the higher-level spells as just Pact Magic that you can't cast without the MA's upcasting).

So... what could Warlocks do with high level spells that no other caster could, at the cost of learning only one 6th, one 7th, one 8th, and one 9th level spell to do it with? At-will casting is way too much, despite it being in theme for Warlock resources. And would be overkill for the currently-best choices (in my opinion; e.g. foresight).

[Sception]

Honestly, the best answer to the bladelock problem is to take blade boon out of the warlock altogether and make it an entirely separate class related to warlock the same way paladin is related to cleric or ranger to druid. But that's a pretty major undertaking.

[RSP]

These, however, are the real answer to why we get threads like this: Mystic Arcanum is the primary class feature beyond level 11 or so, and replaces Pact Magic advancement...
...But real comparison to other classes is that it's not any bigger secret than the Bard or Sorcerer learn, and in fact, the Bard and Sorcerer (the SORCERER) learn as many if not more!


Yeah, to make a good Warlock, you need to have a theme (bladelock who makes weapon attacks, Blastlock who EBs, Infiltrator Chainlock, etc), and the MA don’t provide enough to that theme compared to other classes.

A 20 blastlock (who likes doing damage) might go with Psychic Scream as their 9th level MA, but that doesn’t compare to staying at 11 Warlock with 9 Sorc levels. The additional spells, slots and meta-magic make a much better blaster than 20 Warlock.

Likewise, a 20 Bladelock might have Foresight, which is a great spell in white room situations but overrated in actual situations (one well placed Dispel Magic, which at level 17+ play shouldn’t be an uncommon occurance, ruins it). A 12 Bladelock/8 Pally, or 12 Bladelock/8 Fighter, or any combo between the two, will make a much more effective (and more fun to play, in my opinion) melee Gish.

Just two of the more popular examples, but unfortunately, whatever type of Warlock one plays just doesn’t get enough out of higher levels to justify the single class investment, in my opinion. Even a Tomelock only needs level 11 to ensure access to every Ritual in the game.

Other casters have more versitilty with their higher slots, the added 6th and 7th slots, good new class features like Spell Mastery, AND get added enhancement to the class features they already have, like more Sorc points or more slots gained from Arcane Recovery.

[Warlush]

I really like playing a single class Warlock personally. Having fun is completely dependent on your creativity and you DM not being a jerk. That's been my experience regardless of the character I play.

[Segev]

I really like playing a single class Warlock personally. Having fun is completely dependent on your creativity and you DM not being a jerk. That's been my experience regardless of the character I play.

And more power to you for it. Glad you have fun. The question, though, has been raised as to why so few choose not to multiclass out before level 20. Which is what we're examining. It's not impossible to have fun with a Warlock 20 build, but there are reasons it's one of the most-often left even after a heavy investment.

[stoutstien]

I think the problem arises in all the classes that tend to gravitate away from staying single class. Be it warlocks, rangers, rogue, bards, or sorcerer. They all have pitiful capstones.

[ad_hoc]

I think a big part of the single class warlock problem has to do with most tables not playing beyond level 10. Warlock is at its weakest between levels 6-10. At a time when other classes are continuing to ramp up. At a time when a lot of campaigns are hitting their climax. The warlock is struggling with only 2 spells.


Warlocks are amazing at 5,7,9.

They are on par with other spellcasters at 6,8,10.

No one else comes close to the power of 6 level 3 spell slots at 5, or level 4 at 7, or 5 at 9. They probably have the biggest jump of any class at level 11. 9 level 5 spells plus a level 6 spell is huge.

[Man_Over_Game]

Warlocks are amazing at 5,7,9.

They are on par with other spellcasters at 6,8,10.

No one else comes close to the power of 6 level 3 spell slots at 5, or level 4 at 7, or 5 at 9. They probably have the biggest jump of any class at level 11. 9 level 5 spells plus a level 6 spell is huge.

The major difference here is the number of Short Rests.

"2 spells a fight" sounds fine, unless you have 1 fight a day, in which case the Warlock is now "2 spells a day".

Every caster, up to character level 9, gets 2 max level spells a day. The difference is, for some Warlocks, that's all they get.

[Sception]

No one else comes close to the power of 6 level 3 spell slots at 5

in most campaigns I've played in, warlocks don't come close to this, either.

[ad_hoc]

"2 spells a fight" sounds fine, unless you have 1 fight a day, in which case the Warlock is now "2 spells a day".


The game has been broken, not the Warlock.

[igor140]

I did... for a while. I first played a Fighter 1/ GOO Warlock 4 and really enjoyed it, but then the Hexblade was released, and I rerolled as a pure Hexblade. I liked it even more up until lvl 12 when I got Lifedrinker. Between that, Eldritch Blast, and Eldritch Smite, I was hands-down the most powerful character in the party... by a WIDE margin.

So wide, in fact, that my character was one-shotting vampires and single-handedly winning entire battles. So he "went on a journey" and I played a Sorcerer/ Warlock for a while. The plan was to bring the original character back several levels later (~15) having multi-classed as a Mystic because...

... Warlock features after about level 12 are awful. The level 14 Hexblade feature, Master of Hexes, is simply insulting to any character who has progressed that far. Fiend and GOO level 14 features are good, but don't really justify the utter lack of growth of the class as a whole by that point. The Mystic Arcanum keeps warlocks relevant (compared to other casters), but always lagging behind because they have so few "supporting" spell slots. Eldritch Master is almost as big a middle finger as Master of Hexes; there ARE situations where you have one minute, but not one hour... but few and far between. There are some very good invocations at high levels, but they're typically centered around utility rather than combat/ survivability, meaning that-- just like the Mystic Arcanum-- you're essentially stapling together random "cool" features rather than building towards anything.

Most campaigns feature more combat than social stuff (there are obviously exceptions; I'm well aware). This means that you essentially have two options for Warlock: a) Hexblade, b) Eldritch Blast auto-turret with a LOT of non-combat utility. The Hexblade option is actually better off multiclassing (probably into Sorcerer... unless your DM will allow Mystic ;) ) after level 12, if not way before. The EB turret option could be a lot of fun for a social-heavy campaign, but gets pretty boring in combat-heavy campaigns.

On the other hand, so few parties ever GET to high levels, that it's almost a moot point considering high level options...

tl;dr

Generally speaking, the only people who play single-class Warlocks do so for the sole purpose of playing a single-class Warlock.

[Sception]

The game has been broken, not the Warlock.

And yet when I complain that 5th edition being balanced around a relatively strict and narrow rest and encounter schedule, one that is difficult to organically implement from the rules as written, and that this renders the core game mechanics somewhat inflexible and poorly suited to a variety of campaign and adventure styles that previous d&d editions handled relatively fine, and that in the one specific area of character resource refresh rate management 4th edition was actually superior....

Then I'm told that 'there is no expected encounter or rest schedule in 5e' and that there is no class balance problem if you stray from those non-existent expectations.

[MrStabby]

Yes, well some people will say anything.


Even two short rests per day is not enough to keep the Warlock balanced, it needs roughly equal resource requirements between the rests as well. Fighting iron golems in the morning and a few encounters of a couple of goblins each in the afternoon does not make the spellcasting features remotely equal, no matter how many short rests you have. The limits of power are not based on how much power you have, but how much you can draw on when needed.

The more even the difficulties are between encounters the better a Warlock will do. On the other hand if your encounters span up to deadly, where more resources are needed, then the Warlock will suffer. Even worse, the Warlock will be proportionately less able to contribute to the most dramatic moments of the campaign.

[ad_hoc]

And yet when I complain that 5th edition being balanced around a relatively strict and narrow rest and encounter schedule, one that is difficult to organically implement from the rules as written, and that this renders the core game mechanics somewhat inflexible and poorly suited to a variety of campaign and adventure styles that previous d&d editions handled relatively fine, and that in the one specific area of character resource refresh rate management 4th edition was actually superior....

Then I'm told that 'there is no expected encounter or rest schedule in 5e' and that there is no class balance problem if you stray from those non-existent expectations.

It's not narrow and strict. It's fine to deviate on any given adventuring day.

It's also not difficult to implement. All of the published adventures do it. I highly encourage you to at least play one so you understand how to run the game.

[ad_hoc]

The more even the difficulties are between encounters the better a Warlock will do. On the other hand if your encounters span up to deadly, where more resources are needed, then the Warlock will suffer. Even worse, the Warlock will be proportionately less able to contribute to the most dramatic moments of the campaign.

The Warlock is actually much better when there are fewer more difficult encounters as they are able to bring their power to bear much quicker than other spellcasters are.

[Sception]

It's not narrow and strict. It's fine to deviate on any given adventuring day.

It's also not difficult to implement. All of the published adventures do it. I highly encourage you to at least play one so you understand how to run the game.

I run nothing but prepublished adventures, and have *never* encountered one that organically created a situation where hour long rests every 2-3 encounters were clearly possible yet hour long rests between every encounter clearly were not. Beyond that, most have not reached the target 6ish encounters per day. I'm not sure most of the adventurer's leage modules Ive run even manage 6 encounters in total.

But anyway, yeah, if varying from the recommended schefule *isnt* a problem, then nothing about the warlock specifically, let alone the game in general, should break if you have adventuring days with only one or two encounters and no short rests at all, right?

[ad_hoc]

I run nothing but prepublished adventures, and have *never* encountered one that organically created a situation where hour long rests every 2-3 encounters were clearly possible yet hour long rests between every encounter clearly were not. Beyond that, most have not reached the target 6ish encounters per day. I'm not sure most of the adventurer's leage modules Ive run even manage 6 encounters in total.

I've run around 5 of the books and the vast majority of the chapters are structured to work this way.



But anyway, yeah, if varying from the recommended schefule *isnt* a problem, then nothing about the warlock specifically, let alone the game in general, should break if you have adventuring days with only one or two encounters and no short rests at all, right?

It's not strict but that doesn't mean it will still work if you go to extremes.

The game is clearly not designed to have 1 encounter/long rest. If you play it that way you will have all sorts of problems, not just with the Warlock.