Medium Crossbow design

[viaFAMILIAR]

I'm in the market for a x-bow, but honestly the options aren't to my liking. Playing a small sized PC, the options are a one handed x-bow or a simple x-bow. But I'm playing a martially trained class and want to stand above those not, in damage output. A non-heavy, two-handed, martial ranged weapon would do nicely but, oh look, there aren't any. Could we perhaps design a new crossbow that better suits my needs? Possibly, but we're positive the game designers know better.

Martial Ranged Weapon
Medium Crossbow
40 gp
2d4 piercing
8 lb.
Ammunition (range x/y)
Loading
Two-handed

I thought maybe 2 damage die is OP, but there are other instances of this for weapons. Sure, on a crit that's a minimum of 4 damage, twice as much as most, but who rolls 1's anyways..The loading property puts it behind the longbow unless a feat is taken, so that's a kind of moot point.

I'd love to hear what insight the community has to offer.

[JNAProductions]

I'm in the market for a x-bow, but honestly the options aren't to my liking. Playing a small sized PC, the options are a one handed x-bow or a simple x-bow. But I'm playing a martially trained class and want to stand above those not, in damage output. A non-heavy, two-handed, martial ranged weapon would do nicely but, oh look, there aren't any. Could we perhaps design a new crossbow that better suits my needs? Possibly, but we're positive the game designers know better.

Martial Ranged Weapon
Medium Crossbow
40 gp
2d4 piercing
8 lb.
Ammunition (range x/y)
Loading
Two-handed

I thought maybe 2 damage die is OP, but there are other instances of this for weapons. Sure, on a crit that's a minimum of 4 damage, twice as much as most, but who rolls 1's anyways..The loading property puts it behind the longbow unless a feat is taken, so that's a kind of moot point.

I'd love to hear what insight the community has to offer.

Averages half a point higher than a Light Crossbow, half a point less than a Heavy.

Sure, fine with me.

[Potato_Priest]

Might want to specify what the range is unless you want to be shooting at point-blank for your career.

[JNAProductions]

Might want to specify that it has a range (and what that range is), unless you want to be shooting at point-blank for your career.

Missed that bit.

Probably 90'/360' would work best. Smack dab in between light and heavy.

[viaFAMILIAR]

Missed that bit.

Probably 90'/360' would work best. Smack dab in between light and heavy.
Thanks!

I think we can just call this one a crossbow.

[suplee215]

Interesting although I don't really see a point. Just because a weapon is simple doesn't mean it is ineffective compared to a martial weapon. A light crossbow has the same damage output as a long bow (assuming you are taking crossbow expert for multiple attacks). Also a hand crossbow allows an extra attack with crossbow expert which you will need anyways and the bonus action attack will increase your DPS more than even taking a heavy crossbow. The main problem here appears to be that small creatures can't use heavy weapons without disadvantage but I've never actually met a DM who uses that rule. Although I am a fan of using 2d4s and stuff a lot in my homebrew stuff. I may add an effect and use this as a magic item in a campaign I run I just personally think too many people attempt to add more complex options to the basic weapons list due to it feeling incomplete compared to previous editions.

[viaFAMILIAR]

Interesting although I don't really see a point. Just because a weapon is simple doesn't mean it is ineffective compared to a martial weapon. A light crossbow has the same damage output as a long bow (assuming you are taking crossbow expert for multiple attacks). Also a hand crossbow allows an extra attack with crossbow expert which you will need anyways and the bonus action attack will increase your DPS more than even taking a heavy crossbow. The main problem here appears to be that small creatures can't use heavy weapons without disadvantage but I've never actually met a DM who uses that rule. Although I am a fan of using 2d4s and stuff a lot in my homebrew stuff. I may add an effect and use this as a magic item in a campaign I run I just personally think too many people attempt to add more complex options to the basic weapons list due to it feeling incomplete compared to previous editions.
The point being a simple excercise to create something a player wants and is unique, without loosing a sense of balance.

In this case the PC is a Goblin(VGtM) Beast Master(PH). Using it's bonus action for nimble escape, and one of it's 2 attacks for beast companion, a weapon with the loading property and a bit more "umph" would fit nicely.

[Vogie]

Thanks!

I think we can just call this one a crossbow.

Nah, Names and delineators are important. You don't have to call it "medium", you could use "homemade", "average", "peasant", "mass produced", "military" or other variations thereof, based on its place in the world.

Same reason all swords aren't broken down into "slashy thing" and "stabby thing"

[Spectrulus]

Why not just have it deal 1d9 damage and call it an almost heavy crossbow? =P

[Sjappo]

Forget about the stupid "Heavy" tag for the heavy crossbow, hand one to the half pint and call it a day.

Never understood why handing heavy weapons to the small races would unbalance anything.

[Damon_Tor]

Never understood why handing heavy weapons to the small races would unbalance anything.

It's literally unbalanced, as in, he cannot balance while using it. It weighs 18 pounds, while a halfling weighs only 40 pounds. They lift that up to try to aim it at something their center of gravity leaps up and forward and they fall over. It would be like you trying to aim a weapon that weighs 70 pounds. It doesn't even matter how strong he is, he just doesn't have the mass to wield the thing without adopting a really awkward stance. Hence, disadvantage.

[suplee215]

This all depends on if we decide its realism more important than in game balance.

[Damon_Tor]

This all depends on if we decide its realism more important than in game balance.

All races are good at certain classes and less good at others. Using a Light Crossbow instead of a Heavy Crossbow represents just one point of damage less on each attack. With their +2 Dex, A halfling is a better ranged attacker using a LCrossbow or Shortbow than a Dwarf is with a HCrossbow or Longbow. There's not actually an imbalance here, there's nothing that needs to be fixed.

[JNAProductions]

All races are good at certain classes and less good at others. Using a Light Crossbow instead of a Heavy Crossbow represents just one point of damage less on each attack. With their +2 Dex, A halfling is a better ranged attacker using a LCrossbow or Shortbow than a Dwarf is with a HCrossbow or Longbow. There's not actually an imbalance here, there's nothing that needs to be fixed.

Eventually, though, the Dwarf will max Dex too, and he'll be doing as much as 4 more points of damage in a turn! (If Fighter 20.)

FOUR WHOLE POINTS! What will we ever do?

[Vorpalchicken]

A really peeved-but-not-quite-irate-bow.

Maybe he could also use a hunky-dory-sword.

[suplee215]

All races are good at certain classes and less good at others. Using a Light Crossbow instead of a Heavy Crossbow represents just one point of damage less on each attack. With their +2 Dex, A halfling is a better ranged attacker using a LCrossbow or Shortbow than a Dwarf is with a HCrossbow or Longbow. There's not actually an imbalance here, there's nothing that needs to be fixed.

But this point is almost made mute due to how powerful a hand crossbow with crossbow expert is and that feat is required for any good crossbow build. You need to be a high level fighter for when the bigger dice does more damage than the extra attack and even then I am unsure if that's true. It feels more like a rule for flavor than balance.

[Damon_Tor]

But this point is almost made mute due to how powerful a hand crossbow with crossbow expert is and that feat is required for any good crossbow build. You need to be a high level fighter for when the bigger dice does more damage than the extra attack and even then I am unsure if that's true. It feels more like a rule for flavor than balance.

The extra attack is going to be 8.5 damage. But a Heavy Crossbow only does 2 more damage than average on each hit. Even with 4 attacks the handcrossbow still has a .5 damage lead in comparison. Maybe the math changes when you account for crits, but an extra attack is an extra chance to crit as well, so I doubt it's going to change the ranking. The handcrossbow pulls even further ahead when you account for things like sharpshooter and other buffs to damage.

[suplee215]

The extra attack is going to be 8.5 damage. But a Heavy Crossbow only does 2 more damage than average on each hit. Even with 4 attacks the handcrossbow still has a .5 damage lead in comparison. Maybe the math changes when you account for crits, but an extra attack is an extra chance to crit as well, so I doubt it's going to change the ranking. The handcrossbow pulls even further ahead when you account for things like sharpshooter and other buffs to damage.

Yes but if you action surge I think it wins. 8.5 times 9 is 75.5 and 10.5 times 8 is 84. Adding in sharpshooter is 165.5 vs 164. So yea hand crossbow is superior in most situations so i just dont see why the heavy disadvantage is even in the game. All it does is discourage playing small races in strength base roles and that is not desirable to me.

[Sjappo]

Yes but if you action surge I think it wins. 8.5 times 9 is 75.5 and 10.5 times 8 is 84. Adding in sharpshooter is 165.5 vs 164. So yea hand crossbow is superior in most situations so i just dont see why the heavy disadvantage is even in the game. All it does is discourage playing small races in strength base roles and that is not desirable to me.
Exactly. A small character can swing a 10 pnd greatclub around two handed, but not a 6 pnd greatsword or 7 pnd greataxe? Makes no sense.

[Hytheter]

Exactly. A small character can swing a 10 pnd greatclub around two handed, but not a 6 pnd greatsword or 7 pnd greataxe? Makes no sense.

I feel like the great-club not being heavy is just a typo they just refuse to acknowledge.

[Vogie]

I feel like the great-club not being heavy is just a typo they just refuse to acknowledge.

Hey - it's not a heavy weapon.

It's Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat!

[suplee215]

Also the whole "balance around the heavy cross" for small races argument ignores that none of the small races (outside Kobolds, because pack tactics is insane) have that clear of an advantage over elves or any of the other +2 dex races in the game. And being small doesn't even decrease how much you can carry or lift compared to a medium creature. So a half-orc and a halfling could carry the same amount of items but the halfling can't use them. And this isn't even getting into the fact that it wouldn't be that hard to forge a weapon that is balanced for a creature that was shorter but had the same force delivered as a bigger one.

[Damon_Tor]

And this isn't even getting into the fact that it wouldn't be that hard to forge a weapon that is balanced for a creature that was shorter but had the same force delivered as a bigger one.

That's just not true. Physics is physics: when you exert force on an object you're exerting the same amount of force back on yourself in the opposite direction. The reason the object moves and you generally don't has to do with your own mass versus the mass of the object in question. The more the object weighs in relation to you, the more your own body will move when you exert force against it.

[Sjappo]

That's just not true. Physics is physics: when you exert force on an object you're exerting the same amount of force back on yourself in the opposite direction. The reason the object moves and you generally don't has to do with your own mass versus the mass of the object in question. The more the object weighs in relation to you, the more your own body will move when you exert force against it.
All fine and dandy, but that doesn't matter one wit when looking at a crossbow. The recoil of an crossbow is not that great and can be braced against. Especially by a creature with a low center of gravity.

I'm to lazy to figure out the physics of swinging an one handed 4 lb. sword vs. a two handed 6 lb. sword. Seems to me fluff was chosen over player options. I would have chosen otherwise. YMMV.

[suplee215]

That's just not true. Physics is physics: when you exert force on an object you're exerting the same amount of force back on yourself in the opposite direction. The reason the object moves and you generally don't has to do with your own mass versus the mass of the object in question. The more the object weighs in relation to you, the more your own body will move when you exert force against it.

Yea but not all weapons are going to weigh the same and you can get the same amount of force from two different objects of different weights if the balance allows one to be swung quicker than the other. Speed is much more important than weight in when determining the amount of force an object has and the amount of damage done.

[viaFAMILIAR]

Exactly. A small character can swing a 10 pnd greatclub around two handed, but not a 6 pnd greatsword or 7 pnd greataxe? Makes no sense.

I believe this does make sense because more leverage is required behind the fulcrum to effectively gain enough force at the striking end. Swords and axes are meant to rotate at a point closer to one end, whereas with a club you could rotate the weapon closer to it's centre effectively cutting it's weight by some. I imagine a 40 lb. goblin firing a x-bow nearly half it's weight and being launched backwards.

[Vogie]

I believe this does make sense because more leverage is required behind the fulcrum to effectively gain enough force at the striking end. Swords and axes are meant to rotate at a point closer to one end, whereas with a club you could rotate the weapon closer to it's centre effectively cutting it's weight by some. I imagine a 40 lb. goblin firing a x-bow nearly half it's weight and being launched backwards.

If you really want small creatures firing heavy crossbows, just make them mounted on to something else, like a wall, cart, barricade, a tripod or even a wheeled bipod. If a 200 lb man wants to use an 80 lb weapon, that's what we'd do (and have done), so apply that same thought process to a 40 lb goblin firing an 18 lb weapon. That gives them access to the things, without having to break verisimilitude.

[Joe the Rat]

Get a bipod or some such to brace while firing. A crank or two-step pull could make up for short arms.

Basically throw a little money and ingenuity into it, with a bit of DM buy in, and swing a heavy.