Crown above door at Dwarven council

[Lexible]

Interesting shape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1165.html). Not all crowns are that shape in the comic.

Same crown as Xykon's formerly Master Fryon's?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Probably a coincidence.

[Caerulea]

I assume that it is a stylised depiction of a crown for asthetic purposes, and has no significance, nor relation to Master Fyron and Xykon.

Edit:

Probably a coincidence.Certainly a coincidence.

—Caerulea

[Wizard_Lizard]

I assume that it is a stylised depiction of a crown for asthetic purposes, and has no significance, nor relation to Master Fyron and Xykon.

Edit:
Certainly a coincidence.

—Caerulea

You never know....
(except this is almost definetly a coincidence.)

[Lexible]

Certainly a coincidence.


Why certainly?

[Caerulea]

You never know....
(except this is almost definetly a coincidence.)
Perhaps those large figures between a human and dwarf in proportion carved around the council room will come to life and defeat the vampires and help the Nightcrawler achieve his dream of becoming a therapist. Hey, you never know. It could happen.

—Caerulea

[Jasdoif]

Interesting shape. Not all crowns are that shape in the comic.I'm guessing it's Dvalin's symbol, based on Dvalin's high priest's hat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html).

Of course, Dvalin's title is "First King of the Dwarves", so the symbol could very well be a stylized representation of his earthly OotS-world-ly crown...and I suppose it's in the realm of possibility that Fyron had a demigod's crown on display at his library.

[Caerulea]

Jasidof is likely correct. Also, they are not the same shape. They are actually pretty different (aside from the fact that they are both stick figure crowns).

http://i67.tinypic.com/2587xw4.png

—Caerulea

[Wizard_Lizard]

Perhaps those large figures between a human and dwarf in proportion carved around the council room will come to life and defeat the vampires and help the Nightcrawler achieve his dream of becoming a therapist. Hey, you never know. It could happen.

—Caerulea

Wow, your guess is so weird. I don't think that it will happen at all...

[Jannoire]

Of course, Dvalin's title is "First King of the Dwarves", so the symbol could very well be a stylized representation of his earthly OotS-world-ly crown...and I suppose it's in the realm of possibility that Fyron had a demigod's crown on display at his library.

Wouldn't the crown of a demigod be somewhat magical? In the battle of Azure City, it's stated that the crown is merely for show and looks and doesn't have any magical properties...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wouldn't the crown of a demigod be somewhat magical?

No?

Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Wouldn't the crown of a demigod be somewhat magical?Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.Additionally, Dvalin was a mortal monarch before he was a demigod (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html); if Fyron happened to have Dvalin's crown, it would probably have been from his mortal days.

Or maybe soaking up Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) is the result of a somewhat magical property.

Or maybe Fyron has a convincing replica. Or maybe it was disjoined (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) and is no longer magical. Or maybe it's a convincing replica that was disjoined.

[Fyraltari]

No?

Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.

Grey Wolf

High-level characters tend to have a whole lot of magic items. Here, take the Example of Rassilon (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XNopKTB6RVw). And it would make sense to have, say Charisma enhancement, on a crown.

Also the mere fact of having belong to a god may make it a relic and therefore inherently magical even if that god was a mortal, like how in Oblivion, acquiring blood on the armor of the mortal* Tiber Septim counts as having the blood of the god Talos for spell-casting purposes.

Then again I don’t think these are the same crown.

*Although as possibly a Dragonborn and a Shezzarine Tibet Septim is possibly not the best example of a mortal.

[hroþila]

I don't think anyone's arguing that Dvalin's crown couldn't be magical, though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

High-level characters tend to have a whole lot of magic items. Here, take the Example of Rassilon (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XNopKTB6RVw). And it would make sense to have, say Charisma enhancement, on a crown.

"Would make sense" is not the same as "the crown of a demigod [would] be somewhat magical".

Also, I'm not sure it is a given that Dvalin was high-level in life. High level is not trivially attained in OotS, and his ascension to demigod status does not seem to have been predicated on its level, but on the belief in him by other dwarves, which is compatible a high level, but hardly requires it.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

"Would make sense" is not the same as "the crown of a demigod [would] be somewhat magical".

Also, I'm not sure it is a given that Dvalin was high-level in life. High level is not trivially attained in OotS, and his ascension to demigod status does not seem to have been predicated on its level, but on the belief in him by other dwarves, which is compatible a high level, but hardly requires it.

Grey Wolf
To ascend to godhood one needs to be an exceptional individual who has things impressive enough that both a whole lot of people see them as a divine figure and gods take notice and sponsor their ascension, which in a D&D-based world would require high-level, no?

[Lexible]

Jasidof is likely correct. Also, they are not the same shape. They are actually pretty different (aside from the fact that they are both stick figure crowns).

http://i67.tinypic.com/2587xw4.png

—Caerulea

Fair enough! I am sold by your and Jasdoi's argument.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

High level perhaps but easily just high level in an NPC class (aristocrat, in this case) which does not imply many magic items

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To ascend to godhood one needs to be an exceptional individual who has things impressive enough that both a whole lot of people see them as a divine figure and gods take notice and sponsor their ascension, which in a D&D-based world would require high-level, no?

No, not really. We have no idea how he became King of the Dwarves, but a guy who refuses to make decisions without hearing from everyone else is not necessarily going to be out hunting for monsters to level up. Dvalin was a paragon of (a) virtue amongst dwarves, it seems, which means parents everywhere were telling them "be more like King Dvalin" to dwarven children everywhere. Dwarves believed in what Dvalin represented, to the point he became a god (with the help of the Northern pantheon). But none of that requires him to be anything other than a level 1 commoner. Sure, it is likely that politics gave him a few levels of whatever class Shojo had, but I fail to see how those in any way altered or facilitated his deification. I honestly believe they are unrelated.

(tDO, OTOH, was a warlord and fought many actual battles, so his fame was connected to the actions that gave him XP. I just don't see that Dvalin followed that path)

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

No, not really. We have no idea how he became King of the Dwarves, but a guy who refuses to make decisions without hearing from everyone else is not necessarily going to be out hunting for monsters to level up.
Dvalin refuses to disobey an oath, that’s not the same thing. A reasonable oath at the time it was made too.

Dvalin was a paragon of (a) virtue amongst dwarves, it seems, which means parents everywhere were telling them "be more like King Dvalin" to dwarven children everywhere. Dwarves believed in what Dvalin represented, to the point he became a god (with the help of the Northern pantheon). But none of that requires him to be anything other than a level 1 commoner. Sure, it is likely that politics gave him a few levels of whatever class Shojo had, but I fail to see how those in any way altered or facilitated his deification. I honestly believe they are unrelated.
Parangons of virtue that don’t do squat aren’t held as example of anything. They are forgotten because people don’t know about them.


(tDO, OTOH, was a warlord and fought many actual battles, so his fame was connected to the actions that gave him XP. I just don't see that Dvalin followed that path)

Grey Wolf
Dvalin was the First King of the dwarves. He didn’t inherit the position. You do not found a line by not being a badass.

[hroþila]

There's lots of hermits, visionaries and the like that were practically worshipped in the real world despite not doing anything that would require a high level. We know ascension requires mass worship and belief, nothing more. Sure, being able to draw notice to yourself by conquering whole worlds by yourself before breakfast probably makes things easier, but that doesn't mean it's a requirement.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Dvalin refuses to disobey an oath, that’s not the same thing. A reasonable oath at the time it was made too.

Yes, but not one that gives XP. Not sure what you are implying here - I have nothing against Dvalin.


Parangons of virtue that don’t do squat aren’t held as example of anything. They are forgotten because people don’t know about them.
Dvalin ruled by consensus, and was by all accounts Lawful to a fault. Neither of those things require him to gain levels, and his devotion to upholding the dwarven ideals of honour, even when that means doing nothing, might have been enough to be remembered. Also, what hrothila says above.


Dvalin was the First King of the dwarves. He didn’t inherit the position. You do not found a line by not being a badass.

Yes, yes you do. You can most definitely found a line by sitting all house heads at a table, making a bunch of promises for their support and then ruling justly from then on. Since Dvalin did, at the very least, the middle step of those three, the alternative proposal that he gained the throne via massively parallel murder seems highly suspect.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Dvalin was the First King of the dwarves. He didn’t inherit the position. You do not found a line by not being a badass.Yes, yes you do. You can most definitely found a line by sitting all house heads at a table, making a bunch of promises for their support and then ruling justly from then on. Since Dvalin did, at the very least, the middle step of those three, the alternative proposal that he gained the throne via massively parallel murder seems highly suspect.Alternatively...if Dvalin was some sort of legendary conqueror before the dwarves had a king, in all likelihood he'd have had preferred headgear well before having need of a crown; and further enhancements would be much more sensibly placed on the already enchanted headgear rather than the crown.

Or both: If Dvalin gathered the clan heads to get their support for overthrowing a particular despot, having a fancy-looking-but-not-functional crown could symbolically reflect the "obey the will of the Council" oath (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html) that ultimately garnered the backing for establishing a monarchy.


And since we're deep in conjectural-and-incidental territory already, there are certainly other possibilities (besides the obvious and boring "the crown has nothing to do with Dvalin") with varying degrees of outlandishness: things like "Dvalin had multiple crowns over his lifetime", "the crown was disjoined around the time a parliament replaced the Council as the dwarven government", "Xykon doesn't know the crown is magical", etc.

[Dion]

No?

Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, but let’s be honest. Suppose you were playing in campaign where you retrieved the artifact called “The Crown of Dvalin” from the head of an epic level lich.

If your DM said, “no, really, it doesn’t do anything but sit on your head”, would you be epically disappointed? I know I would.

Since the canonical rule of every D&D world is “don’t disappoint the players”, it must logically follow that Xykon’s crown is *not* “The Crown of Dvalin”, the ancient dwarven artifact worn by the first king and god of the dwarves.

[Dion]

There's lots of hermits, visionaries and the like that were practically worshipped in the real world despite not doing anything that would require a high level.

True. Because it’s D&D, most rulers generally have some levels beyond 1st level commoner, so they don’t die in a random encounter with a house cat.

But Dvalin could certainly be a lot more like Shojo (with a handful of aristocrat levels), and nothing like Tarquin (with epic adventurer levels)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, but let’s be honest. Suppose you were playing in campaign where you retrieved the artifact called “The Crown of Dvalin” from the head of an epic level lich.

If your DM said, “no, really, it doesn’t do anything but sit on your head”, would you be epically disappointed? I know I would.

I wouldn't. It was extremelly common to be given as reward non-magical stuff made of gold that we'd then flog to buy ourself the magic items. Sure, at low levels it was all copper and gold coins, but by level 10, it was "garnets" and "diamonds" and "inlaid scepters" and the like. Good thing too, since gold coins were heavy. "The non-magical Crown of Dvalin" sounds like something we could sell for far more than its weight in gold, saving us precious weight capacity. Possibly get a nice dwarven runed weapon as a subquest for recovering it.


Since the canonical rule of every D&D world is “don’t disappoint the players”, it must logically follow that Xykon’s crown is *not* “The Crown of Dvalin”, the ancient dwarven artifact worn by the first king and god of the dwarves.

No, that doesn't necessarily follow.


But Dvalin could certainly be a lot more like Shojo, with a handful of aristocrat levels, and a lot less like Tarquin, with epic level arrow snatching feats.

Tarquin was also not the head of state.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not the official one, at least. De Facto, I'm pretty sure he is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not the official one, at least. De Facto, I'm pretty sure he is.

Well, he is now that his handler is re-dead. Before Malack croaked, though, I suspect he was the actual brains behind everyday workings of the Empire.

Still, my point remains that a conquerer has a means to gain XP, while a conciliator ruler does not.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I wouldn't. It was extremelly common to be given as reward non-magical stuff made of gold that we'd then flog to buy ourself the magic items. Sure, at low levels it was all copper and gold coins, but by level 10, it was "garnets" and "diamonds" and "inlaid scepters" and the like. Good thing too, since gold coins were heavy. "The non-magical Crown of Dvalin" sounds like something we could sell for far more than its weight in gold, saving us precious weight capacity. Possibly get a nice dwarven runed weapon as a subquest for recovering it.

Or a nice sidequest/subplot of the Dwarven nation wishing to reclaim one of its historical artifacts, and putting bounties on the party's heads. :smallwink:

[Kish]

No, that doesn't necessarily follow.
That's also...a goofy "canonical rule" to claim. Particularly, as it apparently is here, taken to the point of "if the players make an assumption such that they'll be disappointed if they learn that assumption is wrong, you're obligated to throw out whatever you were planning that conflicts with that assumption and make it official."

[Kelenius]

Still, my point remains that a conquerer has a means to gain XP, while a conciliator ruler does not.

Shojo was level 14, though. And he doesn't seem like a conquerer type.

[Wizard_Lizard]

No?

Crown are symbols of authority. They don't need to be magical to have power.

Grey Wolf

If the crown sn't magical, that is what would make it special!
At high levels, how hard s it to find NONmagic items!

[Dion]

Sure, maybe all of you play in lame campaigns where an artifacts named “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” or “Lord Dvalin’s Mithral Mantle of Law” are pedestrian non magical doodads.

Maybe you are just fine taking useless treasure like “Emporer Dvalin’s Leather Belt of Flatulence Control” to the local pawn shop to get 50gp.

But not me! When I wrest “Supreme Commander Dvalin’s Flaming Axe of Tree Smiting” from the king of the Ents, I expect a magical artifact that will chop down trees with one blow, and set them on fire too!

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, he is now that his handler is re-dead. Before Malack croaked, though, I suspect he was the actual brains behind everyday workings of the Empire.

Still, my point remains that a conquerer has a means to gain XP, while a conciliator ruler does not.

Grey Wolf

Interaction and roleplaying XP is a thing.

[Peelee]

Sure, maybe all of you play in lame campaigns where an artifacts named “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” or “Lord Dvalin’s Mithral Mantle of Law” are pedestrian non magical doodads.

Nah, just campaigns where "Dvalin's crown" is an expensive, high-end, non-magical doodad. Nothing pedestrian about it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sure, maybe all of you play in lame campaigns where an artifacts named “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” or “Lord Dvalin’s Mithral Mantle of Law” are pedestrian non magical doodads.

But that's not what it is called. It is, in fact, not called anything. It is simply, for all we know, a gold crown. Not every single piece of loot you ever encounter in a campaign has to be or indeed can be a named, legendary item of untold power. Most loot is just loot. And there is no reason to assume that Dvalin's crown was infused with any kind of magic.


Interaction and roleplaying XP is a thing.
It is indeed, but a tiny percentage of XP gains comapred to fighting. THis is D&D, not V:tM. There are many RP worlds were talking your way out of problems is as good a source of XP-equivlanet as fighting, if not better, but OotS is not runing in any of them.

Like V pointed out, decades of study gave them a few low levels in wizard, and was pretty much dwarfed in a couple of week's worth of adventuring. That's just how the rules of this world shake out.

Grey Wolf

[Dion]

But that's not what it is called. It is, in fact, not called anything.

I’m pretty sure I just called it “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command”, so I don’t see how you can claim it’s not called anything.

But yeah, it don’t think it’s called anything in the comic. It’s just a crown. And I doubt it’s the same one xykon is wearing.

[Peelee]

I’m pretty sure I just called it “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command”, so I don’t see how you can claim it’s not called anything.

Nobody claimed that “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” is a mundane item, though.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nah, just campaigns where "Dvalin's crown" is an expensive, high-end, non-magical doodad. Nothing pedestrian about it.

Oyah. Valuable != Magical. See also artwork, national treasures, royal regalia, etc. Dvalin's crown easily slots into the first three.

[Squire Doodad]

Oyah. Valuable != Magical. See also artwork, national treasures, royal regalia, etc. Dvalin's crown easily slots into the first three.

Dvalin's Crown originally was meant to provide Royal Guards who wear it with a slew of amazing bonuses, such as inherent Owl's Wisdom, heavy stat bonuses, a success on anything short of a critical failure when negotiating with Dwarves, inherent Stonecunning abilities, and a direct link to communicate with the spirits of ancient dwarven kings. among other things.
The issue is that it was given such a specific set of circumstances to activate (including all of class builds, background settings, positions and presence of multiple artifacts), which in combination with the detailed info accidentally not being printed led to no one ever bothering to use it.

[Dion]

The issue is that it was given such a specific set of circumstances to activate (including all of class builds, background settings, positions and presence of multiple artifacts), which in combination with the detailed info accidentally not being printed led to no one ever bothering to use it.

Also, the required companion artifact “ Dvalin’s Leather Belt of Flatulence Control” had the inadvertent side effect of cursing the wearer with alcohol intolerance, so it was thrown into an active volcano.

[Squire Doodad]

Also, the required companion artifact “ Dvalin’s Leather Belt of Flatulence Control” had the inadvertent curse of inflicting alcohol intolerance on the wearer, so it was obviously thrown into a volcano.

Actually, Dvalin's Leather Belt of Flatulence Control was only needed to activate the Crown; after awakening it, the Belt can be safely disposed of, far, far away from anyone else.

A lot of spells fail when the thing they are casted on is destroyed.
What do you think happens when a Belt of Flatulence Control is destroyed?

[Jasdoif]

Sure, maybe all of you play in lame campaigns where an artifacts named “King Dvalin’s Golden Crown of Command” or “Lord Dvalin’s Mithral Mantle of Law” are pedestrian non magical doodads.Frankly, if artifact names have functional modifiers like "of Command" or "of Law", it's probably a lame campaign. Or a parody campaign. Or a parody of a parody campaign.

[Dion]

Frankly, if artifact names have functional modifiers like "of Command" or "of Law", it's probably a lame campaign. Or a parody campaign. Or a parody of a parody campaign.

You’re thinking of Monty’s Spammy Can of Spam, Spam, Spam and Spam.

[Peelee]

Frankly, if artifact names have functional modifiers like "of Command" or "of Law", it's probably a lame campaign. Or a parody campaign. Or a parody of a parody campaign.

Is it parodies all the way down?

[Jasdoif]

Is it parodies all the way down?Arguable; the parodies reach critical mass and turn into a turtle at some point.

[Peelee]

Arguable; the parodies reach critical mass and turn into a turtle at some point.

Well yeah, but the next level down is a parody of the turtle.

[Jasdoif]

Well yeah, but the next level down is a parody of the turtle.That's the thing, though: It's past the critical mass of the terrapinning point; so that parody of the turtle is, itself, a turtle. So it's turtles the rest of the way down...so whether it's parodies all the way down depends on whether the emergent chelonian properties are divergent enough that they're only technically parodies; and that's a subjective question. I hear Donatello and Michelangelo have different views on the matter.

[Peelee]

That's the thing, though: It's past the critical mass of the terrapinning point; so that parody of the turtle is, itself, a turtle. So it's turtles the rest of the way down...so whether it's parodies all the way down depends on whether the emergent chelonian properties are divergent enough that they're only technically parodies; and that's a subjective question.

So you're saying the turtles are just a parade of parodies?

[Jasdoif]

So you're saying the turtles are just a parade of parodies?Potentially a parade of parodies, perhaps.

[Peelee]

Potentially a parade of parodies, perhaps.

If not a parade, then a preponderance.

[RatElemental]

The crown didn't have to be magical to become an artifact as a side effect of Dvalin's ascension. Gods leave artifacts behind all the time that were just items that held a lot of meaning to them when they were mortals and or when they walked the land.

Heck, one god just left his body parts lying around and those became artifacts.

[Kelenius]

It is indeed, but a tiny percentage of XP gains comapred to fighting. THis is D&D, not V:tM. There are many RP worlds were talking your way out of problems is as good a source of XP-equivlanet as fighting, if not better, but OotS is not runing in any of them.

Like V pointed out, decades of study gave them a few low levels in wizard, and was pretty much dwarfed in a couple of week's worth of adventuring. That's just how the rules of this world shake out.

Grey Wolf

Again, Shojo got to level 14, as an Aristocrat, no less. If he could do that, so could Dvalin.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, but not one that gives XP. Not sure what you are implying here - I have nothing against Dvalin.
That being ‘a guy who refuses to take decisions without hearing from everyone else’ is an unfair characterization of Dvalin. His oath is pretty specific.



Dvalin ruled by consensus, and was by all accounts Lawful to a fault. Neither of those things require him to gain levels, and his devotion to upholding the dwarven ideals of honour, even when that means doing nothing, might have been enough to be remembered. Also, what hrothila says above.
Dvalin was an exemplar of Dwarven honor, which puts a heavy emphasis on battle, in a world full of monsters. It seems logical that he would have fought a lot.




Yes, yes you do. You can most definitely found a line by sitting all house heads at a table, making a bunch of promises for their support and then ruling justly from then on. Since Dvalin did, at the very least, the middle step of those three, the alternative proposal that he gained the throne via massively parallel murder seems highly suspect.

Grey Wolf
I’m sorry ‘massive parallel murders’? What does that mean? The dwarves had no king before him, so if they felt the need to have one that indicates some pretty exceptional circumstances. Maybe there was a bunch of dwarven civil wars that he won and he appeased tensions by swearing to rule by consensus. Maybe he united them against a common ennemy and he made his oath to guarantee he wouldn’t be a tyrant.

And maybe it was a time of peace and he convinced the dwarves to impart a massive change to their political system giving him a lot of power out of sheer charisma and force of persuasion. Wouldn’t that require a whole lot of persuasion checks (or whatever the relevant skill is) which would indicate high-level no? I mean since when is it easy to convince politicians to give up power?

My point, finally, is that I was told that the whole point of the NPC/PC class systems is to separate exceptionally individuals (the movers and shakers of a heroic-fantasy world) from the more mundane ones. And that the higher level you are the better you are at what you do. Given these premisses, it seems logical to presume that some who both changed an entire society and was elevated to (demi-)godhood would have been high-level.


Also none of this adresses the ‘The crown could be magic because it’s a relic’ argument that I find stronger anyway.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That being ‘a guy who refuses to take decisions without hearing from everyone else’ is an unfair characterization of Dvalin. His oath is pretty specific.
His oath is extremely specific indeed: "obey the will of the council on issues affecting the clans". Which results in him never making decisions without hearing from everyone else ("I am told he's never cast his vote without polling them first"), since all his actions would affect the clans. It is therefore not an unfair characterization.


Dvalin was an exemplar of Dwarven honor, which puts a heavy emphasis on battle, in a world full of monsters. It seems logical that he would have fought a lot.
No, it does not. It puts a heavy emphasis in dying with honor, which for politicians includes fighting in their own terms, i.e. via politics. Battle is not at all required, as Rich has been extremely clear about.


I’m sorry ‘massive parallel murders’? What does that mean?
It means war, and usually refers to civil war.


The dwarves had no king before him, so if they felt the need to have one that indicates some pretty exceptional circumstances. Maybe there was a bunch of dwarven civil wars that he won and he appeased tensions by swearing to rule by consensus. Maybe he united them against a common ennemy and he made his oath to guarantee he wouldn’t be a tyrant.
If he has won a war, no oath is needed. That kind of appeasement oath is the conclusion of alliance building, not of wholesale slaughter. I see no reason to assume Dvalin so much as killed a fly in life.


And maybe it was a time of peace and he convinced the dwarves to impart a massive change to their political system giving him a lot of power out of sheer charisma and force of persuasion. Wouldn’t that require a whole lot of persuasion checks (or whatever the relevant skill is) which would indicate high-level no? I mean since when is it easy to convince politicians to give up power?
No, it doesn't require high level. It requires you to be about the same level as the people you are facing.


My point, finally, is that I was told that the whole point of the NPC/PC class systems is to separate exceptionally individuals (the movers and shakers of a heroic-fantasy world) from the more mundane ones. And that the higher level you are the better you are at what you do. Given these premisses, it seems logical to presume that some who both changed an entire society and was elevated to (demi-)godhood would have been high-level.
[citation needed for OotS]


Also none of this adresses the ‘The crown could be magic because it’s a relic’ argument that I find stronger anyway.
It is also clearly circular. "The crown is magic because I say it's magic", in a nutshell.

Object don't randomly acquire magical powers every X years in any D&D setting I'm aware of.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

I’m sorry ‘massive parallel murders’? What does that mean?

If you've seen The Godfather, then: When Michael Corleone arranges the simultaneous murders of every single rival of the Corleone family to assure their dominance. If not, watch the movie, especially the bit towards the end.

[Fyraltari]

If you've seen The Godfather, then: When Michael Corleone arranges the simultaneous murders of every single rival of the Corleone family to assure their dominance. If not, watch the movie, especially the bit towards the end.

Well, I have only yesterday seen Saving Private Ryan I might as well get on with my must see list, else I endless wonder wether The Godfather has someone obsessed with killing his victims with two parallel slashes to the throat or something.

[Peelee]

What's the rest of the list?

[Fyraltari]

Let's see, in no particular order:

Jurassic Park, Indiana Jones II and III, Predator, Yojimbo, Fight Club, Star Trek I and II, Alien, Alien: Resurrection*, Hidden Fortress, Casablanca**, Doctor Who: The Movie***, La Soupe aux Choux****, Les gendarmes de Saint-Tropez****, Cow-Boy Bebop*****, Forrest Gump, Dracula******* and Titanic.

I probably forget a few, but I do not have an actual, physical list, you know.



*Jean Jeunet directed an Alien movie!? What?!

**Already seen but can't remember most of it.

***As part of my ongoing DW marathon. (Up to Six!)******

****Oh, who am I kidding, everything with De Funès as lead.

*****Probably worth being part of a marathon as well.

****** GNU Sir Terry Pratchett

*******The one with Lugosi

[Peelee]

Let's see, in no particular order:

Jurassic Park, Indiana Jones II and III, Predator, Yojimbo, Fight Club, Star Trek I and II, Alien, Alien: Resurrection*, Hidden Fortress, Casablanca**, Doctor Who: The Movie***, La Soupe aux Choux****, Les gendarmes de Saint-Tropez****, Cow-Boy Bebop*****, Forrest Gump, Dracula****** and Titanic.

I probably forget a few, but I do not have an actual, physical list, you know.



*Jean Jeunet directed an Alien movie!? What?!

**Already seen but can't remember most of it.

***As part of my ongoing DW marathon. (Up to Six!)*******

****Oh, who am I kidding, everything with De Funès as lead.

*****Probably worth being part of a marathon as well.

******* GNU Sir Terry Pratchett

******The one with Lugosi

Jurassic Park is one of my favorite movies. The Last Crusade is also right up there; without spoiling anything, the Hitler scene manages to go from absolutely terrifying to completely hilarious in the most perfect way imaginable. You seen Shawshank Redemption or The Blues Brothers? Both are also in my favorites list, and are ones I'd recommend wholeheartedly. Fair warning, Shawshank Redemptionis.... let's say not a family-friendly one.

[Fyraltari]

Jurassic Park is one of my favorite movies. The Last Crusade is also right up there; without spoiling anything, the Hitler scene manages to go from absolutely terrifying to completely hilarious in the most perfect way imaginable. You seen Shawshank Redemption or The Blues Brothers? Both are also in my favorites list, and are ones I'd recommend wholeheartedly. Fair warning, Shawshank Redemptionis.... let's say not a family-friendly one.

No, and Yes.

I'm not easily digusted. Besides, I find that American rating agencies have a much lower base than French ones when it comes to recommended age.

[Aeson]

Not the official one, at least. De Facto, I'm pretty sure he is.
Tarquin's and Malack's role in the government of the Empire of Blood is more likely that of Head of Government than Head of State, though Tarquin presiding over the parade and the games thrown when Elan came to the city might push him more towards a de facto Head of State position.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Watch Shawshank and you'll appreciate the warning. A couple scenes are definitely not for kids, but several are more difficult for someone who can't sit and follow the conversation.

For Cowboy Bebop, do you mean the series or the movie? The movie is good, but the series is better. Still can't believe it only got 26 episodes.

[Fyraltari]

His oath is extremely specific indeed: "obey the will of the council on issues affecting the clans". Which results in him never making decisions without hearing from everyone else ("I am told he's never cast his vote without polling them first"), since all his actions would affect the clans. It is therefore not an unfair characterization.
He never votes without consulting the clans, because the Moots are gathering of all the gods to discuss an issue. An issue that concerns all the gods is most likely to concern all the dwarven clans as well. This does not indicate that in his other duties as a god, and in his former duties as mortal king he never made a decision without pulling them. Since his Oath only binds him in case of decisions "affecting all the clans"



No, it does not. It puts a heavy emphasis in dying with honor, which for politicians includes fighting in their own terms, i.e. via politics. Battle is not at all required, as Rich has been extremely clear about.
Battle is not required but it is the most common way, as is repeatedly stated in comic (Hoskin even contempleted killing Kandro himself, for crying out loud). They're still a martyrdom culture. They would expect their king to fight in the front, as honor dictates.

Also, if Dvalin was truly a genius of conciliation as you seem to believe he would be reducing his chances to be assinated in the political arena and therefore more likely to go and pick as many battles as he could.





It means war, and usually refers to civil war.
Didn't know that, thanks.





If he has won a war, no oath is needed. That kind of appeasement oath is the conclusion of alliance building, not of wholesale slaughter.
Are you familiar with the expression "Won the war, lost the peace"? A victor must make concession to their defeated foe, less they simply set the stage for another war. Especially if unification was their goal rather than dominance.



I see no reason to assume Dvalin so much as killed a fly in life.
According to the giant most Dwarves live long enough to have multiple occasion to die with honor. I'm pretty sure most aged dwarves we've seen have killed a lot of things. Especially if they have a position of authority that would require them to lead they followers in battle. This is not a peaceful world.



No, it doesn't require high level. It requires you to be about the same level as the people you are facing.
But you'd need to be above them to have a more than 50% odd of winning, so the higher in the political food chain, the higher the level required to convince people, no?




[citation needed for OotS]
I mean Xykon is called out as being powerful enough to alter the course of battles single-handedly, Miko being highest-ranking in the SG corellated with her being their most powerful warrior, and if you have a high enough bluff you can alter you interlocutors' perception of reality which sounds invaluable to a politican.




It is also clearly circular. "The crown is magic because I say it's magic", in a nutshell.
That's completel tosh, relics being inherently magical because of their links to divine and quasi-divine indiciduals is onr the oldest and most popular convention of folklore ever. Arguably the most archetypical McGuffin ever, the Holy Grail is (according to popular culture) a perfectly ordinary cup that is only important because it interacted twice with the local god-man.


Object don't randomly acquire magical powers every X years in any D&D setting I'm aware of.
Nobody said they would, what are you even talking about?

Grey Wolf[/QUOTE]


Watch Shawshank and you'll appreciate the warning. A couple scenes are definitely not for kids, but several are more difficult for someone who can't sit and follow the conversation.
What are you implying?



For Cowboy Bebop, do you mean the series or the movie?
Yes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What are you implying?

Trigger warning for rape. Also, trigger warning for deep emotional gutpunch (in a completely different scene)

(As to our conversation about the likelihood of the crown being magical, I'm convinced we are at an impasse).

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Trigger warning for rape. Also, trigger warning for deep emotional gutpunch (in a completely different scene)
Duly, noted.


(As to our conversation about the likelihood of the crown being magical, I'm convinced we are at an impasse).

Grey Wolf

Heh. Agree to disagree?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Agree to disagree?

Given that we aren't even disagreeing - we both accept that the crown could be magical - it's not even that. We're splitting straws. The argument has run its course, and it's resting entirely on priors we have no way of defending except by invoking our respective guts. And as fond as I am of mine, it is hardly an authority on which to base an argument.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Fine by me.

[Peelee]

Also, trigger warning for deep emotional gutpunch (in a completely different scene)

Several, IMO, though the specific one you're talking about is the worst.

The fat prisoner's first night and the beating Hadley gives him, the beating Hadley gives Boggs, and Norton's suicide. Even for no-names and villains that I have zero sympathy for, those were dark.

But dang if that isn't a good movie.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Several, IMO, though the specific one you're talking about is the worst.
Eh. The first two aren't as bad. Standard fare for this kind of film. But the last one is the only scene that brings tears to my eyes every damn time.


But dang if that isn't a good movie.
The best, IMnpHO.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Okay, okay, I'll watch it!
Well put it on the list, at least.

[Peelee]

Eh. The first two aren't as bad. Standard fare for this kind of film. But the last one is the only scene that brings tears to my eyes every damn time.
I dunno. Not many prison movies feature beatings that are that brutal, at least not overtly. Doubly at least not before that one came out. And even then, Boggs' is scarier due to the filmography. You just see him crawling out, completely helpless, grabbing on to the rail and sobbing for help, and then just gets pulled back in. It's like the opener from Jaws. Just terrifying.

The best, IMnpHO.

Grey Wolf
I go back and forth every decade, but it's certainly got a valid claim regardless.

Oh, and Fyraltari, also Jaws. Quint's USS Indianapolis speech is, IMO, the greatest monologue in cinema. It's like you're in the water with him, it's just hypnotic. Robert Shaw deserved a friggin Oscar for that. I know, I completely disregard the Oscars normally, but the point comes across.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Several, IMO, though the specific one you're talking about is the worst.

The fat prisoner's first night and the beating Hadley gives him, the beating Hadley gives Boggs, and Norton's suicide. Even for no-names and villains that I have zero sympathy for, those were dark.

But dang if that isn't a good movie.

Also James Whitmore's character, especially after his release. That's one that has started more than a few uncomfortable conversations, even with adults.

[Fyraltari]

Oh, hey, I forgot Terminator I and II and La Marche de l'Empereur.

Alright, and Jaws too.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I dunno. Not many prison movies feature beatings that are that brutal, at least not overtly. Doubly at least not before that one came out. And even then, Boggs' is scarier due to the filmography. You just see him crawling out, completely helpless, grabbing on to the rail and sobbing for help, and then just gets pulled back in. It's like the opener from Jaws. Just terrifying.

I'm not saying it isn't brutal. Hadley, after all, is a monster. But it doesn't rise to the level of emotional gut punch, not for me. In part because you aren't emotionally attached to the characters involved.

...

And I've only just realised I don't even agree with you on the third one. I sort of assumed we were talking about the same scene, but we were not. I was thinking of Brook, not Norton. I have never shed a tear for Norton. May the bastard rest in pieces.


Also James Whitmore's character, especially after his release. That's one that has started more than a few uncomfortable conversations, even with adults.
Yes, that's actually what I was thinking.


Well put it on the list,a t least.
Heck, as long as you get to it around the time Peelee starts on Pratchett, I'm good.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

If we're just making movie recommendations now, I'll suggest The Shootist, probably the best thing John Wayne did. It bills itself as just another shoot 'em up, but has a lot more to do with the end of an era and facing your mortality (which also fits the time it was filmed and Wayne's steadily worsening health).

[Fyraltari]

Heck, as long as you get to it around the time Peelee starts on Pratchett, I'm good.

Now, Peelee and I just need to find you some piece of media, you need to consume as soon as possible and we'll be settled!

[Peelee]

I'm not saying it isn't brutal. Hadley, after all, is a monster. But it doesn't rise to the level of emotional gut punch, not for me. In part because you aren't emotionally attached to the characters involved.

...

And I've only just realised I don't even agree with you on the third one. I sort of assumed we were talking about the same scene, but we were not. I was thinking of Brook, not Norton. I wouldn't shed a tear for Norton. May the bastard rest in pieces.

Grey Wolf
Oh, Brooks was the one I said was the worst, and the one I knew you were specifically talking about. Probably the saddest moment I've seen in a movie. His letter breaks my heart every time.

The others, though... the prisoner, you don't even know what he did. Even then, he's in prison he's going to serve the sentence for whatever crime he's committed, he's going to face justice. And then he doesn't. He gets the death sentence for a perfectly natural reaction, delivered by not a judge, not a jury, only the executioner. And then when the others discuss it, they just accept it. It's just a thing that happens there, nothing to do about it, what's for breakfast?

Even Norton and Boggs, they never actually face justice. Norton takes his own way out, which is still pretty shocking when it's built up like he's going to go down fighting at first, and Boggs gets his comeuppance in the worst way. And not for justice, not because what he did was wrong or that would have happened long ago, but because now the person he tormented was the teacher's pet. The mercurial god turned his nightstick on Boggs and took his ability to walk, and so far as Boggs knows, for no reason whatsoever. As far as he's aware, his fate turned at Hadley's whim.

I'm not saying they didn't deserve what they got, but they were still gutpunches to me. No sadness at their comeuppance, but at the delivery.

Hadley, though... his I like. Broke down crying like a baby when they put the cuffs on, because he knows exactly what his future is going to be. That I feel satisfaction over.


Alright, and Jaws too.
It's slow today, so I went ahead and watched the monologue again. Chills, I'm telling you.

Now, Peelee and I just need to find you some piece of media, you need to consume as soon as possible and we'll be settled!
We could give GW the transcript of that future D&D game.:smalltongue:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Now, Peelee and I just need to find you some piece of media, you need to consume as soon as possible and we'll be settled!

Well, I have been looking for sci-fi recommendations I have yet to read (I last read & enjoyed The Lost Fleet, but amazing literature it ain't), and if you two can think of something of quality on par with Shawshank's and Pratchett, by all means bring it on. I know I can trust your likes to align with mine.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

We could give GW the transcript of that future D&D game.:smalltongue:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/92/2e/ad/922ead973f085c1defe3d6423f241eea.jpg

Also, I took a look at a 5e Player's Handbook earlier today. It's much thicker than I thought it was.

[Peelee]

Also, I took a look at a 5e Player's Handbook earlier today. It's much thicker than I thought it was.

My biggest takeaway from 5e after 3.5 was that it was significantly streamlined. Take from that what you will.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/92/2e/ad/922ead973f085c1defe3d6423f241eea.jpg
An invite, then?

[Fyraltari]

Well, I have been looking for sci-fi recommendations I have yet to read (I last read & enjoyed The Lost Fleet, but amazing literature it ain't), and if you two can think of something of quality on par with Shawshank's and Pratchett, by all means bring it on. I know I can trust your likes to align with mine.

Grey Wolf
How much of Asimov's have you read?

My biggest takeaway from 5e after 3.5 was that it was significantly streamlined. Take from that what you will.
What? It was bigger than my The One Ring manual and that one combines Player and GM handbooks. And it's a D&D derivative! Who designed 3.5? Abdul Alhazred?


An invite, then?
That's up to you.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How much of Asimov's have you read?

A tiny percentage, because it's Asimov. Between what he managed to write and what he published from others under his name, not to mention everything non-sci-fi, it's hard to do otherwise.

But I do have his collection of short stories (unhelpfully titled "I, Robot", but I believe it is very complete - certainly has all the ones in the wiki article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Robot), and a bunch more besides - including the masterpiece that is Bicentennial Man), I've read all three of the caves of steel series, and at least the first few of the Foundation series. I also have a book with his fantasy short stories (padded on the back with non-fantasy articles about all manner of topics; interesting stuff, taught me a lot about American culture that is still surprisingly relevant to this day). Oh, and at least a couple of his popular science books, which are horrendously dated now.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

What? It was bigger than my The One Ring manual and that one combines Player and GM handbooks. And it's a D&D derivative! Who designed 3.5? Abdul Alhazred?

Mearls and Cook, mainly. The complete edition has more books than GURPS, before you look through the third party stuff.

[Fyraltari]

A tiny percentage, because it's Asimov. Between what he managed to write and what he published from others under his name, not to mention everything non-sci-fi, it's hard to do otherwise.
Well, yes, obviously.


But I do have his collection of short stories (unhelpfully titled "I, Robot", but I believe it is very complete - certainly has all the ones in the wiki article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Robot), and a bunch more besides - including the masterpiece that is Bicentennial Man), I've read all three of the caves of steel series, and at least the first few of the Foundation series.
Well, then The Rest of the Robots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rest_of_the_Robots), and the rest of the Foundation series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_series) are in order then (prequel included). Not to spoil anything but you might be pleasantly surprised.


I also have a book with his fantasy short stories (padded on the back with non-fantasy articles about all manner of topics; interesting stuff, taught me a lot about American culture that is still surprisingly relevant to this day). Oh, and at least a couple of his popular science books, which are horrendously dated now.
Asimov's Mysteries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asimov%27s_Mysteries) are a ton of fun for some more cross Sci-Fi/detective fiction and for purely Chritie-style detective fiction, Black Widowers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Widowers) is severely underrated. Although that last one is a treat best served in small separate helpings, lest it gets repetitive (Asimov even accidentally used the set-up of one mystery as the solution of another once which kind of spoils the fun when reading them back-to-back, oops).[/QUOTE]

As for very good Sci-Fi, I had my mind recently blown away by the Omale series by Laurent Genefort for its truly original/weird yet strangely relatable aliens (and his wider Vangk Gates universe for the care with which the workings of everything are thought out and detailed). The basic gist is that a whole bunch of humans have been more or less abducted and deposed on the inside of a gigantic Dyson sphere (named Omale) on a inhabitable are hundreds of time the area of the Earth with two others species. We jump back and forth at various points of the History of the civilisations that develop on this place as they make war a,d/or work together. There's a running theme of science vs religious obscurantism too.

Latium By Romain Lucazeau is a space opera starring Neo-Platonian/Neo-Pythagorician A.I. in an alterante universe where the Roman Empire only fell well unto the space age when all of humanity disappeared in mysterious circumstances. The whole book alternates some truly epic space battles (Nukes being used as small arms, I'm not even kidding) and exploration of ancient philosophical concepts and free-will. It's awesome.

Unfortunately for you both of those are in French and I am not aware of any foreign-language translations. But Omale is already 18 year old and Latium 3-year old, so one can hope.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, yes, obviously.


Well, then The Rest of the Robots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rest_of_the_Robots), and the rest of the Foundation series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_series) are in order then (prequel included). Not to spoil anything but you might be pleasantly surprised.

Yeah, all the short stories in "The Rest of Robots" I have. Found the exact compilation. Turns out it's "Complete Robot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Complete_Robot)", not "I, Robot". Sorry 'bout that.

As to Foundation, I read as far as "Foundation and Earth", and I was NOT pleasantly surprised. But then, I was not really impressed by any of them after the original, which I loved. Asimov is strongest at short stories. Travel the Galaxy plots aren't anywhere as good.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, all the short stories in "The Rest of Robots" I have. Found the exact compilation. Turns out it's "Complete Robot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Complete_Robot)", not "I, Robot". Sorry 'bout that.

As to Foundation, I read as far as "Foundation and Earth", and I was NOT pleasantly surprised. But then, I was not really impressed by any of them after the original, which I loved. Asimov is strongest at short stories. Travel the Galaxy plots aren't anywhere as good.

Grey Wolf
Ah, so the entire serie, then. Yeah, that twist is kind of hit-or-miss.

[Squire Doodad]

Say, how did we go from talking about Xykon to the depiction of crowns in media to a nonsensical ramble about a fake artifact (which if powered down and made more usable would actually make for a nifty reward item in a dwarf-based campaign arc) to talking about Asimov?

[Fyraltari]

Say, how did we go from talking about Xykon to the depiction of crowns in media to a nonsensical ramble about a fake artifact (which if powered down and made more usable would actually make for a nifty reward item in a dwarf-based campaign arc) to talking about Asimov?
Tralalala-lalala

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

[Squire Doodad]

Tralalala-lalala

Right, so, like I said.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Say, how did we go from talking about Xykon to the depiction of crowns in media to a nonsensical ramble about a fake artifact (which if powered down and made more usable would actually make for a nifty reward item in a dwarf-based campaign arc) to talking about Asimov?

You must be new around here.
Star Wars
Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Oh, oh! Have you read The Gods themselves? I'd place it second to Bicentennial Man for all the Asimov I've read.

And the V.AL.I.S. Trilogy by Phil **** is quite the trip, as well. Though I am unsure if that can still be qualified as Sci-Fi. Anyway, that's where most of my understanding of gnosticism comes from.

General warning to whomever it may concern: it may be ill-advised to read ****'s works if you suffer from a mental condition.

[Caerulea]

I rather liked Evidence, from Aasimov's robot series.

For other sci-fi: if you have not read Ender's Game, do so. The rest of the Ender's novels I would consider optional, but that one is excellent. I also rather liked Ender's Shadow and the other ones set on earth. Also the series of the first formic war Earth Unaware, Earth Afire, Earth Awakens.)

—Caerulea

[Squire Doodad]

I rather liked Evidence, from Aasimov's robot series.

For other sci-fi: if you have not read Ender's Game, do so. The rest of the Ender's novels I would consider optional, but that one is excellent. I also rather liked Ender's Shadow and the other ones set on earth. Also the series of the first formic war Earth Unaware, Earth Afire, Earth Awakens.)

—Caerulea

Just noticed the Formic/Ant connection
Middle School me just made sense of so much