Wish and Epic level items/etc.

[Yogibear41]

Is there a rule anywhere preventing wish via SLA or SU ability from creating epic level magic items?

For example is there something to stop a mid level character from summoning up an Efreet to wish for a +50 Longsword etc.

[schreier]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

"When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP."

It doesn't explicitly put in any requirement there regarding an epic item with that line, but it is unlikely you (or the effreti)f have twice the xp cost +5k

[RoboEmperor]

Is there a rule anywhere preventing wish via SLA or SU ability from creating epic level magic items?

For example is there something to stop a mid level character from summoning up an Efreet to wish for a +50 Longsword etc.

Nope. For a while I had a cleric that created a Rod of Excellent Magic at party level 19.

You can't use free wishes in a game. Period. End of Story. Unless it is mega mundane and inexperienced player focused who will waste Efreeti wishes on a single casting of teleport.



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

"When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP."

It doesn't explicitly put in any requirement there regarding an epic item with that line, but it is unlikely you (or the effreti)f have twice the xp cost +5k

Efreetis don't pay xp cost, and Extract Demonic Essence is a feat that halves XP cost so it's more than doable. Rod of Excellent Magic for example costs 28500xp which is all of level 17 and half of level 18. You can delay level up so you can bank that much xp.

[Biggus]

There's also the part that says "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) For example, wishing for a Staff of the Magi might get you instantly transported to the presence of the staff's current owner".

Turning a +5 weapon into a +6 weapon is arguably not massively greater than the other listed effects, but a +50 weapon certainly is. From the above example, presumably wishing for a weapon of that power would get you transported to the presence of an overdeity who owns one...

[RoboEmperor]

There's also the part that says "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) For example, wishing for a Staff of the Magi might get you instantly transported to the presence of the staff's current owner".

Turning a +5 weapon into a +6 weapon is arguably not massively greater than the other listed effects, but a +50 weapon certainly is. From the above example, presumably wishing for a weapon of that power would get you transported to the presence of an overdeity who owns one...


Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

How exactly is a listed effect massively greater than the listed effects?

[Psyren]

For example is there something to stop a mid level character from summoning up an Efreet to wish for a +50 Longsword etc.

Nothing but common sense/gentleman's agreement, no.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"I wish for [epic magic item]!"

A CR 50 opponent who possesses the item appears before you. Good luck telling it that its favorite item is now yours.

[Biggus]

How exactly is a listed effect massively greater than the listed effects?

The text explicitly states that wishing for a Staff of the Magi will not work. A +50 weapon is much more powerful than a Staff of the Magi.

[Psyren]

The text explicitly states that wishing for a Staff of the Magi will not work. A +50 weapon is much more powerful than a Staff of the Magi.

That's an artifact though. Epic Magic Items are powerful, but are explicitly not artifacts.

(Note that I don't think you should be able to wish for a +50 item either, but that isn't the citation you should be using to block it.)

[AvatarVecna]

If you're operating in a theorycrafting environment (where RAW is the default because we can't assume anything about theoretical DMs because different DMs have different cheese allergy levels), then yes, if you can manage to find some way of Planar Binding an Efreeti, then that genie has three wishes it has to give you, and there's literally nothing it can't do with them. The "limits" imposed within the Wish spell are merely the limits on Normal Wishes TM, and within the allowances of Normal WishesTM is upgrading magic items for XP, which the Efreeti does not need to pay. You could, theoretically by RAW, wish for an item that does whatever you want. You can't use Wish to replicate True Resurrection, but you can use a genie Wish to wish up a Staff Of True Resurrection. You can't Wish up a Mace Of Saint Cuthbert, but you could Wish for a functionally-identical "+5 Holy Lawful Mace Of Disruption with an at-will Searing Light special ability" (which, as per the "Behind The Curtain: Pricing Artifacts" sidebar in the epic level handbook, would have a market price of ~2.5mil). These are all things that are theoretically within your capabilities without any significant repercussions. It's only if you find you need an effect that literally no spell (spell-replicating items) or monster ability/class feature (Ability Rip) in the game can solve that you must turn to the "use Wish to homebrew a solution in-universe" uses, which bring with them the consequences of possible twistings - and because this twisting is inherent to the Wish spell itself rather than the wish-granter, having total control over the genie won't necessarily prevent that...and definitely won't prevent that if you're actually using it in a game. There is no greater red cape to wave in front of your DM than the words "I have a Wish too powerful for normal Wish".

[Vaern]

Rod of Excellent Magic for example costs 28500xp which is all of level 17 and half of level 18. You can delay level up so you can bank that much xp.
I can't find the relevant bit on the SRD, but according to the PHB you level up as soon as you gain enough experience to achieve a new level. Upon gaining enough experience to attain a new level, you can immediately expend XP on creating an item or casting a spell rather than keeping the experience to advance a level. That is the only exception that is given. You either spend it or level up; there is no banking it until halfway through the next level.

[Crichton]

I can't find the relevant bit on the SRD, but according to the PHB you level up as soon as you gain enough experience to achieve a new level. Upon gaining enough experience to attain a new level, you can immediately expend XP on creating an item or casting a spell rather than keeping the experience to advance a level. That is the only exception that is given. You either spend it or level up; there is no banking it until halfway through the next level.

Not sure what citation you were going for, but the commonly accepted ruling is the opposite. Instead of derailing this discussion, though, here, take a look at a previous one:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581210-You-can-delay-leveling-up!!!

[Vaern]

Not sure what citation you were going for, but the commonly accepted ruling is the opposite. Instead of derailing this discussion, though, here, take a look at a previous one:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581210-You-can-delay-leveling-up!!!
I don't see how it's derailing the discussion. Mechanics on how XP works and how and when you're able to spend it is relevant to the topic. There's a big difference between being able to start banking experience at 17 to Wish for an epic-level item vs. having to wait until you're almost level 29 for that 28,500 XP.
I'm citing the official printed source material. As many people on the thread you've linked are pointing out, though Skip Williams did work on the PHB, the article is second-hand material and his alternative ruling isn't included in the official errata. It basically amounts to a house rule which has been sanctioned by one of the game's designers.

Advancing a Level: When your character’s XP total reaches at least the minimum XP needed for a new character level, he or she “goes up a level.” For example, when Tordek obtains 1,000 or more XP, he becomes a 2nd-level character. As soon as he accumulates a total of 3,000 XP or higher, he reaches 3rd level.
As soon as you gain enough XP, you level up.

A character cannot spend so much XP on anitem that he or she loses a level. However, upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.
You either expend XP immediately, or you keep the XP to advance a level.

You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to achieve a new level, immediately spend the XP on casting the spell rather than keeping it to advance a level.
Again, you either spend XP immediately, or you keep it and advance a level.
All directly from the core rules.

As for my own personal opinion regarding the use a genie to wish for ridiculously powerful items, I'd say to let them waive 5,000 XP requirement for casting the spell but the apply the XP cost of creating or upgrading a magic item as an "item creation" cost rather than a "spell component" cost. Not an official rule, but it should be sufficient for keeping your players under control with their wishing. Unless you are the player, in which case have fun with your +50 sword.

[gogogome]

I don't see how it's derailing the discussion. Mechanics on how XP works and how and when you're able to spend it is relevant to the topic. There's a big difference between being able to start banking experience at 17 to Wish for an epic-level item vs. having to wait until you're almost level 29 for that 28,500 XP.
I'm citing the official printed source material. As many people on the thread you've linked are pointing out, though Skip Williams did work on the PHB, the article is second-hand material and his alternative ruling isn't included in the official errata. It basically amounts to a house rule which has been sanctioned by one of the game's designers.

As soon as you gain enough XP, you level up.

You either expend XP immediately, or you keep the XP to advance a level.

Again, you either spend XP immediately, or you keep it and advance a level.
All directly from the core rules.

The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items.

You can only expend xp to create a magic item when you begin the item creation process. You cannot begin the item creation process until you are at a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place suitable for preparing spells with all magical supplies at your disposal which is never in the middle of the battlefield. In other words, you can delay leveling up until you are capable of resting and have the magical supplies at hand.

[Lapak]

You can only expend xp to create a magic item when you begin the item creation process. You cannot begin the item creation process until you are at a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place suitable for preparing spells with all magical supplies at your disposal which is never in the middle of the battlefield. In other words, you can delay leveling up until you are capable of resting and have the magical supplies at hand.That's perfectly consistent with normal play, though; I don't know many DMs who hand out XP in real time so you go DING! as you strike down that 14th orc in the middle of the battle. ;)

I don't think it's that unusual to wait to award XP until exactly that same set of circumstances arrives (i.e. safe, rested, at 'home base.')

Edit: of course this means that at such tables you could successfully bank enough XP by non-stop adventuring that carried you midway or more to the next level without a real break.