Paladin-wizard

[Willie the Duck]

High all,
My group generally wants to play at a level of optimization that allows people to play ideas 'for fun,' and someone advancing a character as a build that vastly outstrips everyone else, or might set up the situation where the DM can only challenge the group by vastly upping the ante, would be frowned on. I'm playing a vengeance paladin, and just taking that and PAM (normal, with a halberd) kinda feels questionable. Something like dipping hexblade or sorcerer would be right out. However, the guy playing the wizard is leaving the group, and now we are down some roles. We have a swashbuckler (melee) rogue, a hexblade chainlock (who never melees... or uses his imp familiar... it's odd), and a life cleric. So we are down arcane spell support... and we just happened upon a headband of intellect. We're levelling up to level 7. Would going into wizard at this point be 1) too powerful, 2) too weak, 3) actually helpful on the support front, 4) crippling to the paladin still performing paladin duties? The goal is to be able to fill out more roles (so that we can have the two skirmish-level combatants/skill monkeys in a 4-man-band) without becoming a spotlight stealing monstrosity, which I recognize as an inherently contradictory thing.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[Zuras]

High all,
My group generally wants to play at a level of optimization that allows people to play ideas 'for fun,' and someone advancing a character as a build that vastly outstrips everyone else, or might set up the situation where the DM can only challenge the group by vastly upping the ante, would be frowned on. I'm playing a vengeance paladin, and just taking that and PAM (normal, with a halberd) kinda feels questionable. Something like dipping hexblade or sorcerer would be right out. However, the guy playing the wizard is leaving the group, and now we are down some roles. We have a swashbuckler (melee) rogue, a hexblade chainlock (who never melees... or uses his imp familiar... it's odd), and a life cleric. So we are down arcane spell support... and we just happened upon a headband of intellect. We're levelling up to level 7. Would going into wizard at this point be 1) too powerful, 2) too weak, 3) actually helpful on the support front, 4) crippling to the paladin still performing paladin duties? The goal is to be able to fill out more roles (so that we can have the two skirmish-level combatants/skill monkeys in a 4-man-band) without becoming a spotlight stealing monstrosity, which I recognize as an inherently contradictory thing.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

It’s definitely not that powerful. You don’t get much in the first few levels besides additional individual defense (shield, absorb element). Even the most powerful obvious builds like War Mage just make you individually more tanky. If you are worried about over-shining the party and want to take the Arcana skill, you could try going Diviner and picking up Dragon breath at 3rd level to motivate the Warlock to actually use his familiar.

What arcane spells were you expecting to cast in a support role?

[Bloodcloud]

You probably don't have a very high int. That limits spell choice.

It's not gonna be OP for sure. More spell slot will help smiting, rituals will improve your utility, and you'll get some decent defence spells out of the deal(absorb element, shield, mirror image...)

Seems workable

[Willie the Duck]

What arcane spells were you expecting to cast in a support role?

Not sure. the guy playing the cleric is new to D&D on a whole and is definitely geared towards the cure wounds and spirit weapon/guardian offensive ones, so I would expect to be doing the magic detecting, plus identify, know language, etc. Later on, spider climb or fly to get past pits and the like. Dispel, counterspell.

I mean, I know a party doesn't need an arcane caster at all, but I've seen how that sometimes plays out.


You probably don't have a very high int. That limits spell choice.

19, we just found a Headband of Intellect.

[Wuzza]

You'll miss out on Relentless Avenger at 7 (of questionable use), and then ASI/Feat at 8. I guess ideally, you should wait.

I'm of the school of cool, if you want to do it, go for it. I've a Pally6/Wiz1 in my campaign atm. It certainly doesn't break anything. Depending on you adventure, the utility spells can be really useful. (and who doesn't want a familiar :smallsmile:)

My current PC is Druid4/Sorc1, it's completely un-optimised, but fun to play and has actually been far more useful than the multiclassing guides would suggest.

[Man_Over_Game]

I mean, there are a lot of better options than the Paladin to be using the Band of Intellect and going Wizard.

For example, the Swashbuckler + Bladesinger combo is actually really good. Warlock + Wizard is incredibly versatile and powerful.

If you wanted to have more of an arcane focus, I'd just talk to your DM about limiting your Divine Smites and going Sorcerer. It solves a lot of the problems you're mentioning, it's not dependent on a magical item, and there are more synergies between the Paladin and the Sorcerer. Just replace your Divine Smite feature with a feature that says "Concentration Saving Throws for your Paladin spells are made with Advantage", and that'd limit the damage buff between Sorcerer and Paladin.

[Quoz]

You could just take ritual caster for your next ASI if your focus is out of combat utility.

While wizard is probably the last choice of full casters I would normally pair with a paladin, you can make it work. If you're dex-based a bladesinger could do quite well, otherwise Abjurer or Diviner add good options. The extra spell slots can fuel a lot of smites, and you will have access to the best buff spells for whatever your party wants to do.

If I were looking at this as an intentional build, conquest paladin 7/Abjurer wizard X with arcane ward and an upcast Armor of Agathys wading through the front lines could be a interesting play

[Man_Over_Game]

You could just take ritual caster for your next ASI if your focus is out of combat utility.

While wizard is probably the last choice of full casters I would normally pair with a paladin, you can make it work. If you're dex-based a bladesinger could do quite well, otherwise Abjurer or Diviner add good options. The extra spell slots can fuel a lot of smites, and you will have access to the best buff spells for whatever your party wants to do.

If I were looking at this as an intentional build, conquest paladin 7/Abjurer wizard X with arcane ward and an upcast Armor of Agathys wading through the front lines could be a interesting play

Interesting note on that, I made an Intelligence Conquest Paladin as one of the Prestige Options in my signature.

As in, it's playing a Paladin with all of your Charisma features swapped to Intelligence and you're only allowed to play a Conquest Paladin. There's an additional restriction saying you can't pack more Wizard levels than you have Paladin levels, as mostly a balance concern for armor proficiencies and Divine Smite spell stacking.

Seemed relatively balanced, compared to the default Paladin's option of using Sorcerer and Metamagics.

[Bjarkmundur]

I love this idea! The sheer amount of rituals you get access to through your spellbook is amazing, and portent is veeerrryyyy useful and fun for the whole party. I'm just amazed this is the first time I hear anyone thinking about using headband of intelligt to Multiclass into a wizard. Simply genius.

[Vogie]

I love this idea! The sheer amount of rituals you get access to through your spellbook is amazing, and portent is veeerrryyyy useful and fun for the whole party. I'm just amazed this is the first time I hear anyone thinking about using headband of intelligt to Multiclass into a wizard. Simply genius.

Make sure you have enough intelligence to do so. The Headband of intellect will increase their Int to the point of being effective without spending all the ASIs, but doesn't actually allow for Multiclassing into Wizard. This is the same with all of them - Your 8 Str wizard can't MC into barbarian even if they're rocking the Gauntlets of Ogre Power.

[Willie the Duck]

Make sure you have enough intelligence to do so. The Headband of intellect will increase their Int to the point of being effective without spending all the ASIs, but doesn't actually allow for Multiclassing into Wizard. This is the same with all of them - Your 8 Str wizard can't MC into barbarian even if they're rocking the Gauntlets of Ogre Power.


"To qualify for a new class, you must meet the ability score prerequisites for both your current class and your new one, as shown in the Multiclassing Prerequisites table. For example, a barbarian who decides to multiclass into the druid class must have both Strength and Wisdom scores of 13 or higher. Without the full training that a beginning character receives, you must be a quick study in your new class, having a natural aptitude that is reflected by higher-than-average ability scores."


"Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is already 19 or higher without them."

The best I could find that supports this notion is the reference to 'natural aptitude' (with all the vagueness in terminology that entails). Do you have another rules reference that clarifies your position? Thanks!

[Vogie]

The best I could find that supports this notion is the reference to 'natural aptitude' (with all the vagueness in terminology that entails). Do you have another rules reference that clarifies your position? Thanks!

That's correct. All things that are not part of your concrete stats are considered Temporary

In the errata in the 2016 Sage Advice Compendium (https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf#page=6), you find:

Would a temporary stat bump fulfill a multiclass prerequisite, or does the base score have to meet the requirement? Your base score, not a temporary score, has to meet a multiclassing prerequisite.
Because the gauntlets/headband/whatever can be taken off, they are temporary score changes.

[Willie the Duck]

That's correct. All things that are not part of your concrete stats are considered Temporary

Um, good to know, but I didn't say that, so I don't understand the "that's correct."


In the errata in the 2016 Sage Advice Compendium (https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf#page=6), you find:

Because the gauntlets/headband/whatever can be taken off, they are temporary score changes.

Okay, an online clarification that doesn't even specifically mention magic items, and requires you to infer that they are what it means when it refers to 'a temporary stat bump.' I'm pretty sure no one in this particular group would consider it important. However, honestly that's a pretty good ruling. If the multiclass stat reqs are supposed to have any kind of teeth at all, being able to pass around a single magic item between any number of party members who want to dip into X pretty much defangs the requirement.

[Vogie]

However, honestly that's a pretty good ruling. If the multiclass stat reqs are supposed to have any kind of teeth at all, being able to pass around a single magic item between any number of party members who want to dip into X pretty much defangs the requirement.

That's basically the reason for it. While most people, if they were to get a Headband of Intellect, would just leave it on... but mechanically, there's nothing stopping everyone in the party from saying "I'm going to wear this when I have enough XP to level to become a wizard" then pass it on. It only requires attunement.

On the other hand, something like a Tome of Leadership and Influence (as seen on Critical Role) and the various other Tomes and Manuals can only be used successfully once per 100 years (or just once, period), and the effect on the reader is permanent (that is, not tied to having the book on your person), then it's fine.