OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Hootman]

Oh goodness, I'm choking with laughter. That was a brilliant final line for the page. Got me good.

[Fyraltari]

It was nice knowing you, Kandro.

Also, I require a translator.

[AutomatedTeller]

Dwarves ARE weird.

[kiapet]

Giant Worm continues to be best character. "Spirit of the request" indeed.

[Agnostik]

I mean, in the world with a definitely existing afterlife and a well-known surefire way to get there, why WOULDN'T one react like this? :smallbiggrin:

[Resileaf]

Glasgewian dwarves are as hard to understand as actual Glasgewians.

Also watch out for hypocrisy, Durkon, your job description as adventurer is literally to kill people and take their stuff.

[vegetalss4]

I just love how this Deathworm is written.
It's such a refreshing experience to see a called creature doing it's best to fulfill it's orders in good faith rather than trying to weasel out of it through abusing technicalities.

[Tarthalion]

Dwarves are weird.

[Vendanna]

New comic is up.

I'm really confused with this development, didn't we got foreshadow tht you cannot cast spells inside the orange barrier? (reason why the high priest casted the scroll with the hands outside the barrier?. Then why he is able now to cast Harm inside the orange barrier without getting stoned?

[Fitzclowningham]

Looks like Durkon's hammer has some healing mojo.

RIP Kandro

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm really confused with this development, didn't we got foreshadow tht you cannot cast spells inside the orange barrier? (reason why the high priest casted the scroll with the hands outside the barrier?. Then why he is able now to cast Harm inside the orange barrier without getting stoned?

No, you can't cast spells through the barrier - it blocks magic.

You also can't cast spells that are against the law in the inner chamber, but they're in the middle chamber right now.

Grey Wolf

[The Giant]

I'm really confused with this development, didn't we got foreshadow tht you cannot cast spells inside the orange barrier? (reason why the high priest casted the scroll with the hands outside the barrier?. Then why he is able now to cast Harm inside the orange barrier without getting stoned?

Spells can't pass through the orange barrier. The stoned thing is inside the blue barrier, which is a room that hasn't been shown yet.

[Fyraltari]

I'm really confused with this development, didn't we got foreshadow tht you cannot cast spells inside the orange barrier? (reason why the high priest casted the scroll with the hands outside the barrier?. Then why he is able now to cast Harm inside the orange barrier without getting stoned?

He can’t cast trough the barrier. In the same way that I can’t throw a ball through a brick wall, but I can throw just fine regardless of the side of the wall I am on.

[warmachine]

That old dwarf should be glad that a judgement of 'killed in battle' doesn't require always paying attention to a likely attacker.

[deworde]

"Okay, I didn't understand any of what you were saying, but I feel pretty insulted by"?

Oh, and for reference, "knobby", "roaster", "tadger", "bawbags", "haf-pished", "skelp", "geggie" and "dobber" all mean precisely what you think they do.

"Bairn" means child.

[Tarthalion]

Now that Hoskin has saved her life via outstretched arm, I wonder if Sigdi will be more receptive to his proposals?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Now that Hoskin has saved her life via outstretched arm, I wonder if Sigdi will be more receptive to his proposals?

Isn't he married with children now? Wasn't he the one who got married by Durkon?

Grey Wolf

[Personification]

I can't believe that the Giant just posted! (I mean other than the comic itself. I don't think I've ever seen him respond to someone on the forums since I joined).
YAY, first page!

[White Blade]

Good for the old man, glad he got a good afterlife.

[jollydm]

Okay, that one got a good laugh out of me, I needed that this morning. :D

[Vendanna]

Spells can't pass through the orange barrier. The stoned thing is inside the blue barrier, which is a room that hasn't been shown yet.

ah ok, sorry for the confusion then Rich. I thought it was "no spells allowed or stoned" inside the orange (because I thought the OOTS could pass one of the barriers and the fight was in a sandwhiched zone between the barriers)

Probably due the nature of the webcomic (since it takes times between each strip) compared to the printed book. So I only had in my mind "inside barrier = welcome to stone age"

Thank you everyone else that took its time to correct me. Wish you all a happy weekend!

[Fyraltari]

"Okay, I didn't understand any of what you were saying, but I feel pretty insulted by"?

Oh, and for reference, "knobby", "roaster", "tadger", "bawbags", "haf-pished", "skelp", "geggie" and "dobber" all mean precisely what you think they do.

"Bairn" means child.
But I have no idea what they mean!

Isn't he married with children now? Wasn't he the one who got married by Durkon?

Grey Wolf
Yes he was.

[RblDiver]

Gone entirely too soon if you ask me! (Also, his insults and accent really reminds me of the Fable gargoyles, I wholeheartedly approve!)

[understatement]

Double strips! Yeah!!!

Finally someone got Jonah'ed.

[Matt Sharp]

Also, I require a translator.

Jings an' Helpmabob, ye wouldnae get a wurd o' it past yon profanity filter...

[deuterio12]

So let's recheck...

Freshly created vampires spawn:
-Tear their way through a dwarf fortress like a hot knife through butter.

Strongest non-unique monster that Hel can gate to her followers:
-Has the defensive advantage and earth elemental summon support yet takes several comics to kill a single old dwarf that was already at death's door and so wanted to get killed in battle for an honorable end before a "dishonorable" demise in the bed.

Clearly they shouldn't have bothered with the deathcrawler and just gated a bunch of extra vampires.

[Peelee]

But I have no idea what they mean!

https://media3.giphy.com/media/1gdhqPsDyPASQ/giphy.gif

Also, I'm loving the perspective shots.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I love this half-confused, half-terrified face Haley made at the end

[Edric O]

So this is the cultural result of having weird rules for the afterlife combined with absolute certainty about the afterlife (and the accuracy of those rules).

[xroads]

Lol! Okay. I love dwarves in this world. I'm now considering implementing the dwarven curse in my next campaign I run just to see how it plays out.

[littlebum2002]

Well, we know now that the cousin's brother-in-law's niece's fiancee is considered a dwarf for the orange barrier's purposes. I wonder if you are allowed in if you are only half dwarf?

[Telcontar]

Baaah hah! Best punchline in a awhile. "Way to finally get got!"

[Peelee]

"SCOOOOTLAAAAAAND! FREEEEDOOOOOOM!" *elevator doors open*

That's how I assume all Scottish is translated, at least.

.... Darned deleted post I was quoting making me look all confused.

[Zhorn]

:smalleek:
...
:smallbiggrin:
...All dwarves in my campaign now think this way... This is now canon in all my games

[Resileaf]

"SCOOOOTLAAAAAAND! FREEEEDOOOOOOM!" *elevator doors open*

That's how I assume all Scottish is translated, at least.

.... Darned deleted post I was quoting making me look all confused.

I know, right? I was quoting it too.

We were bamboozled.

Also it's even worse than Scottish. It's Glasgewian.

[xroads]

So let's recheck...
Strongest non-unique monster that Hel can gate to her followers:
-Has the defensive advantage and earth elemental summon support yet takes several comics to kill a single old dwarf that was already at death's door and so wanted to get killed in battle for an honorable end before a "dishonorable" demise in the bed.


Frankly I think that speaks more to the vigor and fight the old dwarf still had in him then it does to the deathworm's failures. At the very least the deathworm has been keeping the rest of the OotS busy, which is more than a dozen vampire spawn could do.

[Resileaf]

Frankly I think that speaks more to the vigor and fight the old dwarf still had in him then it does to the deathworm's failures. At the very least the deathworm has been keeping the rest of the OotS busy, which is more than a dozen vampire spawn could do.

Also the vampires had the advantage of secrecy and surprise. I highly doubt they could have ever done as well as they did if their presence and plans were known.

[wolph42]

That was one epic version of different points of view! Awesome setup greatly done!

[hroþila]

That was at least as hard to understand as authentic frontier gibberish.

[Jay R]

I love taking a bizarre idea and then following it to its logical conclusion. "Way to finally get got!"

And yes -- dwarves are weird.

[Turin_19]

Dwarves are definitely the best. I laughed hard at the end of this one!

[ManuelSacha]

I instinctively read all his lines doing my best impression of David Tennant's Scrooge McDuck.

[Quebbster]

Kandro took the second chance to get into Valhalla. Took him long enough though.

[tyckspoon]

So let's recheck...

Freshly created vampires spawn:
-Tear their way through a dwarf fortress like a hot knife through butter.

Strongest non-unique monster that Hel can gate to her followers:
-Has the defensive advantage and earth elemental summon support yet takes several comics to kill a single old dwarf that was already at death's door and so wanted to get killed in battle for an honorable end before a "dishonorable" demise in the bed.

Clearly they shouldn't have bothered with the deathcrawler and just gated a bunch of extra vampires.

Hel and the vampire thought they needed something that could hold up a high-level adventuring party. And considering the 'nobody but dwarves allowed' barrier, they thought the only one they really needed to worry about was Durkon. Bringing in the biggest, nastiest thing you can get your hands on makes sense in that situation. Multiple weaker vampires (or just multiple lesser critters provided through the Gate) would be the play if you think you need to counter multiple weaker opponents - as mean as the nightcrawler is, outside of some limited spell-like abilities it can only be in one place at a time and attack one foe at a time (and note that it was ordered to 'defend this platform area thing', so it actually needed to be able to take some initiative to decide that actually meant 'don't let anybody through the orange barrier.') Basically Hel had no idea Durkon's extended clan would be showing up.

[Elvensilver]

Look how Sigdi makes sure everyone comes through safely... :smallsmile:
And how the dwarfs react to one of their dinner Club getting eaten... chill. But also kinda funny ,,He finally got get"
Also, what does the Death Worm say after its tongue get cut? I have trouble figuring it out, which is sad, since it is probably quite funny...
Edit: Typos.

[Resileaf]

Also, what does the Death Worm say after its tongue get cut? I have trouble fuguring it out, ehich is sad, since it is probably quite funny...

"I have no idea what you just said by I'm pretty sure I should be insulted by it", or something like that.
And just before he eats Kandro "Okay, that's it!"

[Peelee]

"I have no idea what you just said by I'm pretty sure I should be insulted by it", or something like that.

Close. "OK, I don't understand any of what you're saying, but I feel pretty insulted by-"

[D.One]

He can’t cast trough the barrier. In the same way that I can’t throw a ball through a brick wall, but I can throw just fine regardless of the side of the wall I am on.

I must say that, pal, you need to improve your spot. Ninja'ed by a wolf and a giant :smallbiggrin:

(Sorry, couldn't resist the joke)

[Bilbo Baggins]

"I really think the spirit of his request was to not let anyone inside, even through the window." Oh LDW, way to subvert tropes there :smallsmile:. I'll miss your quips now that your tongue was cut out - I don't suppose you could regrow it for us somehow?

[Resileaf]

Close. "OK, I don't understand any of what you're saying, but I feel pretty insulted by-"

I was more paraphrasing than translating word for word.

[georgie_leech]

Oh Likable Death Worm, your clear language will be missed. Unclear language will have to suffice.

[Fyraltari]

I must say that, pal, you need to improve your spot. Ninja'ed by a wolf and a giant :smallbiggrin:

(Sorry, couldn't resist the joke)

In my defense that Giant has proven himself able to sneak a lot of information past pretty much the entire forum multiple times. And the wolf is grey.

[Ninjaman]

Love the worm's inversion of the literal-minded trope often seen in summons.

[simanthropy]

How has no-one talked about Sigdi's axe yet? It very much reappeared in her hand after she very much lost it down the pit.

Is it a weapon of legacy?

[Fitzclowningham]

How has no-one talked about Sigdi's axe yet? It very much reappeared in her hand after she very much lost it down the pit.

Is it a weapon of legacy?

Maybe Kandro dropped his and she picked it up?

edit: nope - hers was full two-bladed and his wasn't.

[georgie_leech]

How has no-one talked about Sigdi's axe yet? It very much reappeared in her hand after she very much lost it down the pit.

Is it a weapon of legacy?

Maybe it's a spare. Not everyone is like Roy with his pathological need to only ever use a single weapon :smalltongue:

[Arkain]

Dwarves are weird wonderful :smallbiggrin:

[Hardcore]

What about the black magic cloud when kandro is devoured? Did the worm consume his soul too?

[Resileaf]

What about the black magic cloud when kandro is devoured? Did the worm consume his soul too?

Nightcrawlers drain levels from creatures they swallow. It was negative energy, basically.

[Kish]

How has no-one talked about Sigdi's axe yet? It very much reappeared in her hand after she very much lost it down the pit.

Is it a weapon of legacy?
Where do you see her axe in her hand after she dropped it?

[Jay R]

Durkon, you're trying to talk a vampire out of something because it's unfair to kill someone? That's ... not likely to work.

The argument he should use is, "Yer Master's na usin' it any more. Finders keepers!"

[Morquard]

Where do you see her axe in her hand after she dropped it?

Last two panels she's in.

[Fyraltari]

Looks like Durkon's hammer has some healing mojo.

RIP Kandro

I think he’s casting with his shield-hand.

[magwaaf]

this strip is fantastic and why i love dwarves lol

[deuterio12]

Hel and the vampire thought they needed something that could hold up a high-level adventuring party.
And considering the 'nobody but dwarves allowed' barrier, they thought the only one they really needed to worry about was Durkon.

Durkon just waltzed past the nightcrawler. It had one job and failed miserably at it.



Bringing in the biggest, nastiest thing you can get your hands on makes sense in that situation. Multiple weaker vampires (or just multiple lesser critters provided through the Gate) would be the play if you think you need to counter multiple weaker opponents - as mean as the nightcrawler is, outside of some limited spell-like abilities it can only be in one place at a time and attack one foe at a time (and note that it was ordered to 'defend this platform area thing', so it actually needed to be able to take some initiative to decide that actually meant 'don't let anybody through the orange barrier.') Basically Hel had no idea Durkon's extended clan would be showing up.
-It's dwarf country, dwarf reinforcements are expected.
-I'm not sure if "defend this platform" includes "use only your soft squishy tongue to grab invaders instead of clamping them between your sharp hard teeth". The Nightcrawler isn't even supposed to have a tongue attack, just a bite with poison included in, it's said poisonous bite that's used to grab victims before swallowing, so why the heck is the comic's nightcrawler showing off a prehensile tongue that can be easily axed?
-Comic's nightcrawler so puny the old dwarf at death's door doesn't even bother holding his axe with both hands for the extra damage and still heavily wounds it. Feels like he could've actually solo'd the comic nightcrawler, but then would've been left without a way for an honorable death, probably was feeling an heart attack coming.
-Nightcrawlers are supposed to be able to summon minions of their own, and since this one was called there's no reason it can't get a bunch of extra nasty ethereal undead with draining attacks to hold the line. Oh wait, clearly it traded the undead summoning for a fancy prehensile tongue that can be easily axed. Really good decision there, yessir.

The vampire spawn actually posed a threat to the veteran OoTS, they even had to barricade themselves inside a forcecage to buy time.

But the supposed strongest monster Hel has available struggles to score a single kill among a bunch of civilian dwarves.

And still lets Durkon calmly walk by.

The comic nightcrawler sucks against both mooks and high-level protagonist with his fancy useless prehensile tongue.

For extra irony, vampires can trap the souls of their victims increasing Hel's power, while the comic's failcrawler can only grant them honorable death if they're too old and close to a dishonorable end, meaning the failcrawler is actually helping souls escape from Hel's grasp!

[rbetieh]

Way to show the horrible implications of the Bet to everyone, Giant.

I can't imagine how much beer Thor must have had in his system to go along with this incredibly Evil plan...

Really feel sorry for the Dwarves now.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Durkon, you're trying to talk a vampire out of something because it's unfair to kill someone? That's ... not likely to work.

The argument he should use is, "Yer Master's na usin' it any more. Finders keepers!"
I mean, from a certain perspective, his masteris still using it, considering that Durkon*'s last moments of unlife were spent as a carbon copy of Durkon.



I can't imagine how much beer Thor must have had in his system to go along with this incredibly Evil plan...
Or how Loki got him to stick with it once he sobered up.

[Linneris]

Durkon's "literally" felt jarring to me. An ill-fitting case of modern Internet slang (and I find today's overuse of the word "literally" annoying).

[Rogar Demonblud]

That was at least as hard to understand as authentic frontier gibberish.Maybe Kandro's last name is Johnson?


What about the black magic cloud when Kandro is devoured? Did the worm consume his soul too?Kind of. Nightcrawlers can level drain someone they swallow.


I can't imagine how much beer Thor must have had in his system to go along with this incredibly Evil plan...

Well, one time when somebody tricked Thor into drinking from the ocean he drank so much new islands were exposed. Which means he can drink a lot of beer (or ale, or mead, or whisky, or...)

[Morquard]

Somehow I expect Kandro to not actually be dead and cut his way out of the Nightcrawler.

Who's with me on that?

[Kish]

Durkon's "literally" felt jarring to me. An ill-fitting case of modern Internet slang (and I find today's overuse of the word "literally" annoying).
"Literally" isn't slang, unless you're saying you think Durkon can actually think of things less fair than what he said.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Aww, poor Kandro. :smallfrown:

Also, this strip is the probably the one I’ve had to reread the most before understanding it. :smalltongue:

[Cifer]

I believe the proper word is "WITNESSED!"?

[xroads]

Hmmm... I just noticed something. Why aren't the mesmerized guards responding? Wouldn't they normally be defending the vampires that charmed them?

[Resileaf]

Hmmm... I just noticed something. Why aren't the mesmerized guards responding? Wouldn't they normally be defending the vampires that charmed them?

Not unless they are ordered to. As long as Gonthor doesn't tell them to start fighting, they'll stay where they are and won't do anything unless their own lives are in danger.

[gatemansgc]

honestly wish there was a direct link to the discussion thread at the bottom of each comic. though i guess that might encourage necroing the threads of older comics, sigh.


Somehow I expect Kandro to not actually be dead and cut his way out of the Nightcrawler.

Who's with me on that?

i feel like this is possible. cut his way out for MAXIMUM DAMAGE! but he's also constantly being level drained, so i don't know how long he'd last. or if the axe was swallowed too.

[137beth]

So let's recheck...

Freshly created vampires spawn:
-Tear their way through a dwarf fortress like a hot knife through butter.

Strongest non-unique monster that Hel can gate to her followers:
-Has the defensive advantage and earth elemental summon support yet takes several comics to kill a single old dwarf that was already at death's door and so wanted to get killed in battle for an honorable end before a "dishonorable" demise in the bed.

Clearly they shouldn't have bothered with the deathcrawler and just gated a bunch of extra vampires.

Since this council isn't the normal dwarven government, the guards that were already there were probably mostly low level.

[knag]

"Okay, I didn't understand any of what you were saying, but I feel pretty insulted by"?

Oh, and for reference, "knobby", "roaster", "tadger", "bawbags", "haf-pished", "skelp", "geggie" and "dobber" all mean precisely what you think they do.

"Bairn" means child.

Not all of them violate the forum rules when translated. "Geggie" means mouth. "Roaster" is someone who is making a fool of themselves. "Haf-pished" is partially intoxicated. Skelp is to hit. I'll leave the rest alone.

[Elfey]

Does Kandro's death at the hand of a summon spawned by a Priest of Hel count for the free drink upgrade in Valhalla?

[Kish]

Also, Hel doesn't have a bunch of extra vampires; every vampire she has was created by another vampire draining someone fifth level or above.

[tyckspoon]

"Literally" isn't slang, unless you're saying you think Durkon can actually think of things less fair than what he said.

Yeah, Durkon isn't the type to use a word like literally anything less than.. well, literally.

[gatemansgc]

I love this half-confused, half-terrified face Haley made at the end

i just noticed that. i've always loved the ( o_o ) face in this comic as it was!

[jwhouk]

Dwarves are weird.

Repeating this because it is incredibly true.

Durkon's fight with the Ex-Exarch is gonna be epic. And I bet he'll have the same opinion of Uncle Kandro's death as well.

[Snails]

Frankly I think that speaks more to the vigor and fight the old dwarf still had in him then it does to the deathworm's failures. At the very least the deathworm has been keeping the rest of the OotS busy, which is more than a dozen vampire spawn could do.

Exactly. A dozen vampire spawn can sneak up and overwhelm a honor guard that has fallen to such a level of unimportance as to not warrant individual names, but they will fall like wheat before the Order. The worm is at least a large enough bag of hit points to survive four rounds. That this old dwarf is tough enough to take two full rounds to annihilate does not mean the worm is weak, it means it is not too much of a "glass cannon" for this tactical role.

[Snails]

Does Kandro's death at the hand of a summon spawned by a Priest of Hel count for the free drink upgrade in Valhalla?

Recently killed by vampire dwarves will probably buy him a couple rounds, to hear how things are panning out.

[Jasdoif]

Nightcrawlers are supposed to be able to summon minions of their own, and since this one was called there's no reason it can't get a bunch of extra nasty ethereal undead with draining attacks to hold the line.Since they take up to 10 rounds to arrive after being summoned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler), I think it's a little bit early to rule out that it hasn't done so.

Though frankly, the nightcrawler's abilities are a mess; like the creature was naively ported from an earlier edition of D&D rather than actually converted. How many combats actually last more than five rounds, especially at the nightcrawler's CR 18? Come to think of it...who decided the most challenging undead creature in the original monster manual should be a giant worm?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Somebody who likes to make 'wormfood' jokes?

[JeenLeen]

So this is the cultural result of having weird rules for the afterlife combined with absolute certainty about the afterlife (and the accuracy of those rules).

I wonder if this implies that challenging someone to a fight and killing them is perfectly legal in most dwarven states. I could see honor duels being allowed, even to the death, with a loose need for a good justification.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

So, is the female bard wearing blue dead, or did she fall onto the other (unbroken) half of the bridge.

Also, given that she and the other bard are both wearing blue, both have brown hair, and both seem to have wooly/curly hair, I'm going to assume that they are siblings, especially as Sigdi refers to them as "you kids".

Additionally, does falling to your death in battle count as honorable?

[The Giant]

How has no-one talked about Sigdi's axe yet? It very much reappeared in her hand after she very much lost it down the pit.

Is it a weapon of legacy?

It's an art mistake. Fixed now.

I often draw comic panels out of order based on what I feel like doing first or last, whether that's due to mood or difficulty or what have you. In this case, I drew those end panels early on, but I didn't decide she was going to lose her axe until I drew the overhead-shot panel and decided I wanted the axe at the bottom to illustrate the distance down. I didn't notice the axe was still in the end shot afterwards.

[Resileaf]

So, is the female bard wearing blue dead, or did she fall onto the other (unbroken) half of the bridge.

Also, given that she and the other bard are both wearing blue, both have brown hair, and both seem to have wooly/curly hair, I'm going to assume that they are siblings, especially as Sigdi refers to them as "you kids".

Additionally, does falling to your death in battle count as honorable?

Considering we have a view of the hole under Sigdi when Hoskin grabs her arm and that the other dwarf is not seen falling, she's most likely on the other side of the bridge.

[MADCrab]

Way to show the horrible implications of the Bet to everyone, Giant.

I can't imagine how much beer Thor must have had in his system to go along with this incredibly Evil plan...

Really feel sorry for the Dwarves now.

I've always thought that was pretty straightforward.
The bet isn't actually between Thor and Hel. It's between Loki and Hel, about Thor. He can't say no. All he can do is try to thwart Hel.

[maxon]

So, is the female bard wearing blue dead, or did she fall onto the other (unbroken) half of the bridge.

In panel 9, she seems to be falling towards the 'down' half of the broken bridge behind the worm's head.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I've always thought that was pretty straightforward.
The bet isn't actually between Thor and Hel. It's between Loki and Hel, about Thor. He can't say no. All he can do is try to thwart Hel.

Which (from what we've seen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)), he tries as much as possible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html).


Considering we have a view of the hole under Sigdi when Hoskin grabs her arm and that the other dwarf is not seen falling, she's most likely on the other side of the bridge.

In that case, it seems as though no dwarves were killed in the breaking of that bridge.


In panel 9, she seems to be falling towards the 'down' half of the broken bridge behind the worm's head.

Huh, so it probably wasn't intended to be ambiguous, I'm just kind of bad at parsing 2.5-dimensional perspective.

[PontificatusRex]

Way to show the horrible implications of the Bet to everyone, Giant.

I can't imagine how much beer Thor must have had in his system to go along with this incredibly Evil plan...

Really feel sorry for the Dwarves now.

Nope, don't see that at all. Even without knowing that a wonderful afterlife is waiting, I'd still rather die quickly and doing something worthwhile than slowly degenerating from old age. If you know for a fact that Valhalla is waiting, that just removes the fear of what comes after.

I am reminded of all the things Tolkien wrote about the downfall of Numenor - the people there went from viewing death as the gift at the end of a life well-lived to a thing to be feared, and clung to life with their minds and bodies decaying, long after their proper time to have passed. That was the opening Sauron used to corrupt and destroy them.

[gatemansgc]

Not all of them violate the forum rules when translated. "Geggie" means mouth. "Roaster" is someone who is making a fool of themselves. "Haf-pished" is partially intoxicated. Skelp is to hit. I'll leave the rest alone.

bawbag makes me think of "hurricane bawbag", lol.

you have experience with the accent irl or just good googling?

[Fyraltari]

I wonder if this implies that challenging someone to a fight and killing them is perfectly legal in most dwarven states. I could see honor duels being allowed, even to the death, with a loose need for a good justification.
Pretty sure it is. Though, my guess would be that both parties would have to agree beforehand on wether the duel is supposed to be to the death.

So, is the female bard wearing blue dead, or did she fall onto the other (unbroken) half of the bridge.

Also, given that she and the other bard are both wearing blue, both have brown hair, and both seem to have wooly/curly hair, I'm going to assume that they are siblings, especially as Sigdi refers to them as "you kids".

Additionally, does falling to your death in battle count as honorable?
Sure, if you are thrown by your ennemy as we see here. At least that's what Thor would argue.

I've always thought that was pretty straightforward.
The bet isn't actually between Thor and Hel. It's between Loki and Hel, about Thor. He can't say no. All he can do is try to thwart Hel.
No, it's explictly between Hel and Thor as coined by Loki.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Durkon's "literally" felt jarring to me. An ill-fitting case of modern Internet slang (and I find today's overuse of the word "literally" annoying).

"Literally" meaning "figuratively" is not modern. It's use in that sense can be tracked to at least Dickens (https://www.dictionary.com/e/literally/). It is also hardly unique - enough words exist in English language that are their own antonyms that they exist as their own category: Janus words (https://www.thoughtco.com/janus-word-contranym-1691087).

Grey Wolf

[Oxenstierna]

I was going to post about my surprise that hitting someone with a hammer in the face wasn’t against Dwarven law, then I read the explanation that they are in a middle chamber, not the inner chamber yet. Then I thought it would probably be funniest if, after the preparation to influence the council through extensive exploitation of the laws, the vampires overlooked something simple that was allowed, and could stop them. Like a hammer in the face. Explicitly cited as permissible under Dwarf Law by ruling of King Hammerface. Also known as Hammerface the Terrible Debater.

[Anarion]

The Hel agreement and how it affects every part of Dwarven society is really interesting. I liked how all the dwarves were smiling right after he got eaten.

[Resileaf]

Can we appreciate a moment how strong Sigdi's grip strength is to hold herself backwards like that?

[Kish]

"Literally" meaning "figuratively" is not modern. It's use in that sense can be tracked to at least Dickens (https://www.dictionary.com/e/literally/). It is also hardly unique - enough words exist in English language that are their own antonyms that they exist as their own category: Janus words (https://www.thoughtco.com/janus-word-contranym-1691087).

Grey Wolf
The problem is that if "literally" means something other than literally, then there's no way in English to convey that you actually mean literally.

Modern or not, that use of "literally" should go to Hel. Should literally go to Hel, even.

[Dion]

I’m not crying. You’re crying.

[Peelee]

The problem is that if "literally" means something other than literally, then there's no way in English to convey that you actually mean literally.

"Non-figuratively."

If I ignore the implied "non-clunky way," of course.:smalltongue:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The problem is that if "literally" means something other than literally, then there's no way in English to convey that you actually mean literally.

Modern or not, that use of "literally" should go to Hel. Should literally go to Hel, even.

No, the problem is that people like to tell tall tales and exaggerate. That there is no word that only means literally, despite there being at least three that can mean it sometimes, but can also mean figuratively (truly, totally, literally) is indicative that human nature is what it is, and that there is nothing language can come up with that won't almost immediately be used to aggrandise a story in a way that makes it obvious the statement was figurative.

Also, it is hardly the only language feature English lacks. Clusivity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYlVJlmjLEc) would be nice, for example. And as things go, it's hardly the worst. Certainly not bad enough to literally or figuratively condemn it to Hel.

Grey Wolf

[Thecommander236]

The problem with having to die heroically is that if you're too good a fighter, you'll never find someone that can kill you. "Ah ****, he died of a heartache, so he's going to hell..." "But he killed a HUNDRED men by himself!" "Nope, hell." Seems a bit unfair.

[georgie_leech]

"Literally" meaning "figuratively" is not modern. It's use in that sense can be tracked to at least Dickens (https://www.dictionary.com/e/literally/). It is also hardly unique - enough words exist in English language that are their own antonyms that they exist as their own category: Janus words (https://www.thoughtco.com/janus-word-contranym-1691087).

Grey Wolf

Even older; there are known uses of literally as an intensifier 50 years before Dickens was born, much less writing. (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002611.html) This fight was lost literally centuries before any of us were born :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

The problem with having to die heroically is that if you're too good a fighter, you'll never find someone that can kill you. "Ah ****, he died of a heartache, so he's going to hell..." "But he killed a HUNDRED men by himself!" "Nope, hell." Seems a bit unfair.

To be fair here, the entire bet seems a bit unfair. That said, of course, it's a D&D world, I'm pretty sure you can find something to kill you if you're really looking.

[Lathund]

Now that Hoskin has saved her life via outstretched arm, I wonder if Sigdi will be more receptive to his proposals?

Exactly my thoughts. I did see someone mention Hoskin got married though. Can someone refresh my memory about that?

[Sniccups]

The problem is that if "literally" means something other than literally, then there's no way in English to convey that you actually mean literally.

Modern or not, that use of "literally" should go to Hel. Should literally go to Hel, even.

I always just use “quite literally”

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The problem with having to die heroically is that if you're too good a fighter, you'll never find someone that can kill you. "Ah ****, he died of a heartache, so he's going to hell..." "But he killed a HUNDRED men by himself!" "Nope, hell." Seems a bit unfair.

...

That's the point. It is horrendously unfair. Gods-playing-with-the-fate-of-mankind level of unfair.
Literally

Exactly my thoughts. I did see someone mention Hoskin got married though. Can someone refresh my memory about that?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html

Grey Wolf

[Pampukin]

I know that its weaved by story logic, but Kandro must have been pretty high level to hit a 35 AC twice and bypass the DR (tho his axe might have been magic.)

The link to Thor fighting Hel over a splinter made me wonder if the level of heroism required for a "honorable" death is in the eye of the demised.

Awesome comic, I check the website probably twice a day for updates. (Then I skulk the forums for a laugh)

[D.One]

It's an art mistake. Fixed now.

I often draw comic panels out of order based on what I feel like doing first or last, whether that's due to mood or difficulty or what have you. In this case, I drew those end panels early on, but I didn't decide she was going to lose her axe until I drew the overhead-shot panel and decided I wanted the axe at the bottom to illustrate the distance down. I didn't notice the axe was still in the end shot afterwards.

... and I was already running for the Geekery thread to suggest tha Sidgi had a returning axe... :smallbiggrin:

[Fyraltari]

I was going to post about my surprise that hitting someone with a hammer in the face wasn’t against Dwarven law, then I read the explanation that they are in a middle chamber, not the inner chamber yet. Then I thought it would probably be funniest if, after the preparation to influence the council through extensive exploitation of the laws, the vampires overlooked something simple that was allowed, and could stop them. Like a hammer in the face. Explicitly cited as permissible under Dwarf Law by ruling of King Hammerface. Also known as Hammerface the Terrible Debater.
I think you mean "King Hammerface The Highly Appreciated by His Advisors And Most Esteemed by His Politcal Opponents Except those Who Live Far Away".

The problem with having to die heroically is that if you're too good a fighter, you'll never find someone that can kill you. "Ah ****, he died of a heartache, so he's going to hell..." "But he killed a HUNDRED men by himself!" "Nope, hell." Seems a bit unfair.

Yeah, it hit me, reading the comic that this look a lot like a species-wide, lighter and sillier take on the Slayer Cult (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QROb-w3gYpE).


The resemblances are so few that I doubt there's any link between the two (besides the common inspiration of the whole "die in battle" thing Vikings had going on), but I wonder if the Giant played Warhammer Fantasy.

[D.One]

I think you mean "King Hammerface The Highly Appreciated by His Advisors And Most Esteemed by His Politcal Opponents Except thsoe Who Live Far Away".

Also called "Your High and Mighty Pleasedonthitme Majesty".

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Even older; there are known uses of literally as an intensifier 50 years before Dickens was born, much less writing. (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002611.html) This fight was lost literally centuries before any of us were born :smallbiggrin:

The fight may be lost, but as long as any of us are still alive, it's not over.

Also, the day I lack the will to fight for lost causes is the day I lack the will to get out of bed in the morning.

We are all in a hopeless fight against entropy, against time, against the basic facts of existence, and against that seductive path of least resistance, and guess what? The fact that the game is rigged hasn't stopped us from trying to win, or trying to lose as well as possible (if the fight was lost so long ago, then it means people have been willing to keep up the fight for so many years). I count that a victory, if a very small one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The fight may be lost, but as long as any of us are still alive, it's not over.

Also, the day I lack the will to fight for lost causes is the day I lack the will to get out of bed in the morning.

We are all in a hopeless fight against entropy, against time, against the basic facts of existence, and against that seductive path of least resistance, and guess what? The fact that the game is rigged hasn't stopped us from trying to win, or trying to lose as well as possible (if the fight was lost so long ago, then it means people have been willing to keep up the fight for so many years). I count that a victory, if a very small one.

Of all the hills to die on, prescriptivism seems an odd choice. Especially amongst English speakers.

Grey Wolf

[D.One]

Of all the hills to die on, prescriptivism seems an odd choice. Especially amongst English speakers.

Grey Wolf

I believe a dwarf would prefer to die under the Hills of Prescriptivism than over the Plains of Descriptivism... :smallbiggrin:

[Ruck]

Also, given that she and the other bard are both wearing blue, both have brown hair, and both seem to have wooly/curly hair, I'm going to assume that they are siblings, especially as Sigdi refers to them as "you kids".

Their skin tones are different, so I'm not sure they are. They do both seem to be apprenticing under Janna (which is misspelled "Jenna" in this strip, unless I'm interpreting all of this wrong).

[monomer]

I know that its weaved by story logic, but Kandro must have been pretty high level to hit a 35 AC twice and bypass the DR (tho his axe might have been magic.)

The link to Thor fighting Hel over a splinter made me wonder if the level of heroism required for a "honorable" death is in the eye of the demised.

Awesome comic, I check the website probably twice a day for updates. (Then I skulk the forums for a laugh)

Considering how old the other dwarves were making him out to be, he's also likely well past middle-aged and well into Old, which means he's probably fighting with at least a -3 to STR, DEX, and CON, though +2 to INT, WIS, and CHA. I wonder if he has a prestige class like Dashing Swordsman that uses the CHA modifier while saying an insult?

[Aquillion]

"I really think the spirit of his request was to not let anyone inside, even through the window." Oh LDW, way to subvert tropes there :smallsmile:. I'll miss your quips now that your tongue was cut out - I don't suppose you could regrow it for us somehow?
Here we see the advantages of using Gate to summon stuff that is actually aligned with your goals rather than merely compelled by the spell.

[Matt620]

Blackwing: Dwarves are weird.
Varric Tethras: Yep!

[ti'esar]

It's ironic that the same strip that establishes the worm as a non-joke villain by having it kill someone (even if he was totally on board with the idea) also makes it even more ridiculous by how it talks with half a tongue.

...Although Kandro's last words give it a run for its money.

[woweedd]

...This page is the oddest combination of heartwarming, awesome, and a little creepy.

[Sloanzilla]

What happened to the dark skinned bard to the right of the one who was saved?

[JumboWheat01]

Dwarves are not weird. They're awesome.

[monomer]

Dwarves are not weird. They're awesome.

They can be two things.

[gatemansgc]

honestly this is one of the best comics yet, how does the giant keep outdoing himself?

[Peelee]

honestly this is one of the best comics yet, how does the giant keep outdoing himself?

Practice, maybe?:smallwink:

[Rogar Demonblud]

What happened to the dark skinned bard to the right of the one who was saved?

Since she was knocked backwards, she probably slid down the ramp and is back with the Order. Maybe she can school Elan on proper punning while providing a bit of Bardic Music to boost the combatants.

[Jasdoif]

What happened to the dark skinned bard to the right of the one who was saved?Since she was knocked backwards, she probably slid down the ramp and is back with the Order.Yeah. She didn't need to be saved, because she made her Reflex save to get on the side of the rupture with less danger.

[LtPowers]

They do both seem to be apprenticing under Janna (which is misspelled "Jenna" in this strip, unless I'm interpreting all of this wrong).

AFAIK, the name of Squeaky's apprentice has only been mentioned once before, so either one is equally likely to be the typo.


Powers &8^]

[schmunzel]

Way to show the horrible implications of the Bet to everyone, Giant.

I can't imagine how much beer Thor must have had in his system to go along with this incredibly Evil plan...

Really feel sorry for the Dwarves now.

These guys seem to be pretty content with who they are
Dont be sorry for him. He had a good death (and hopefully life, too).

sch

[schmunzel]

Hmmm... I just noticed something. Why aren't the mesmerized guards responding? Wouldn't they normally be defending the vampires that charmed them?

Attacking these other dwarves might be against their believes.

sch

[RabidEel]

The link to Thor fighting Hel over a splinter made me wonder if the level of heroism required for a "honorable" death is in the eye of the demised.

I suspect Thor is rules-lawyering, given that he doesn't really believe that trees are dangerous. He'll use whatever ridiculous logic he needs to keep his dwarves away from Hel.

[St Fan]

Anybody else noticed that the shot of Hoskin reaching for Sigdi's hand is very similar to the one shot of Sigdi reaching for another dwarf in the first strip introducing her? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html)

[Psychronia]

A round of applause for Kandro! He got got real good.

I wonder whether that's more of a testament to him being inactive or being really badass in a fight? As the saying goes, "old people don't get to be that way by being easy to kill", which is probably kind of a dilemma for high-leveled dwarves.


Anybody else noticed that the shot of Hoskin reaching for Sigdi's hand is very similar to the one shot of Sigdi reaching for another dwarf in the first strip introducing her? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html)

Good catch. I knew that was symbolic of something, just couldn't place it. The design resembles Kandro, but I think that's just a limitation of the medium considering my impression of their ages.

[danielxcutter]

...Haley's expression practically screams "what the f#$&?" :smallbiggrin:

[Toper]

I love the giant death worm's emotional intelligence and sensitivity so much. "Okay, I didn't understand any of what you're saying, but I feel very insulted by -"

[Hardcore]

Nightcrawlers drain levels from creatures they swallow. It was negative energy, basically.

Thanks! :smallsmile:

[Fitzclowningham]

Kandro may still be alive - the Giant made sure to include his movement in panel 7 of the second page. Would be weird to include it if he was just going to die, and I'm sure there's a good joke in there somewhere.

[SpectralTime]

...Have we taken a moment to appreciate he literally pointed out the worm is penis-shaped repeatedly while fighting it?

Also, bleh. Of course the bad guy's summons follow the spirit instead of the letter of the request. Though, I guess he did want to "treat himself."

[Fyraltari]

...Have we taken a moment to appreciate he literally pointed out the worm is penis-shaped repeatedly while fighting it?

Also, bleh. Of course the bad guy's summons follow the spirit instead of the letter of the request. Though, I guess he did want to "treat himself."

Funny thing is, the Deathworm is more respectful of the spirit of things than his master is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1014.html).

[Particle_Man]

I think the dwarves are not going to worry so much about turning to stone past the blue barrier, so long as they can each get one effective spell or attack in to save the world. The Bet may ruin Hel's plan.

[Emperor Time]

Kandro is gone now but at least he died happy. Since he now gets to spend his days drinking with Thor.

[Riftwolf]

Kandro may still be alive - the Giant made sure to include his movement in panel 7 of the second page. Would be weird to include it if he was just going to die, and I'm sure there's a good joke in there somewhere.

It's showing that he's going down fighting; what, just because he's taking 2d8+12 bludgeoning damage, 12 acid damage and a negative level in there, you think he's going to roll over? That's not the Dwarven way, it's not ghe Glaswegian way, and it's certainly not the Glaswegian Dwarven way!

[Ruck]

Anybody else noticed that the shot of Hoskin reaching for Sigdi's hand is very similar to the one shot of Sigdi reaching for another dwarf in the first strip introducing her? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html)

The connection between the scenes had occurred to me, but I hadn't noticed how intentionally the panels mirror one another.

[Wizard_Lizard]

dwarves are so amazing

[Wowlock]

Considering how they have to die in battle with honor to get to Valhalla, it is actually the most sane decision. Of course if it wasn't for the fact that Hel is trying to usurp the Dwarven pantheon with her evil plan, this would've been actually a celebratory moment for the whole gang!

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I like it. :smallbiggrin:

[Sloanzilla]

It would suck if you died heroically fighting something that has a special power to absorb or drain your soul.

[Riftwolf]

It would suck if you died heroically fighting something that has a special power to absorb or drain your soul.

Such a creature wouldn't be of interest to the Gods who made it (unless it had a loophole on which God would gain *its* soul). The only creature off the top of my head in d&d that eats souls are Barghests, and they get stronger from it (up to a certain point (unless misused by Master of Many Forms (in which case the God of Barghests better like the taste of cheese))), but as they're not undead I doubt Hel can use them? If she could it'd raise the question of why she hadn't if Barghests could override the honor loophole by destroying the soul in question.

[Kish]

Central to this book's plot is that Durkon died honorably fighting a creature who had (and used) the power to imprison his soul in his corpse.

[Squire Doodad]

It would suck if you died heroically fighting something that has a special power to absorb or drain your soul.

I mean you'd get a ticket to Valhalla-land, but you'd be stuck for a while until the entity died. From what we've seen, absorbed souls do get released. Presumably this also applies to other "soul drain" monsters, though I imagine the victim's souls would not last nearly as long in their afterlives than normal petitioners (souls eventually merge with their planes; the effect of the drain may mean the soul is basically partially merged already leaving less to naturally merge with the plane).

[Talion]

... and I was already running for the Geekery thread to suggest tha Sidgi had a returning axe... :smallbiggrin:

I mean, my first thought when I saw that wasn't 'Art Mistake' or 'Returning Axe' but rather "Sidgi's really showing that combat experience, bringing a SPARE WEAPON with her on a dangerous mission." Not that I'd know where she was keeping it, but still.

[Resileaf]

Such a creature wouldn't be of interest to the Gods who made it (unless it had a loophole on which God would gain *its* soul). The only creature off the top of my head in d&d that eats souls are Barghests, and they get stronger from it (up to a certain point (unless misused by Master of Many Forms (in which case the God of Barghests better like the taste of cheese))), but as they're not undead I doubt Hel can use them? If she could it'd raise the question of why she hadn't if Barghests could override the honor loophole by destroying the soul in question.

Another kind of creature that eats souls is the Devourer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devourer.htm), and it's an undead.

[Jasdoif]

Such a creature wouldn't be of interest to the Gods who made it (unless it had a loophole on which God would gain *its* soul). The only creature off the top of my head in d&d that eats souls are Barghests, and they get stronger from it (up to a certain point (unless misused by Master of Many Forms (in which case the God of Barghests better like the taste of cheese))), but as they're not undead I doubt Hel can use them? If she could it'd raise the question of why she hadn't if Barghests could override the honor loophole by destroying the soul in question.Devourers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devourer.htm) are close (and undead).

EDIT: ...did we just set a record for time-delayed ninjary?

[ericgrau]

Looks like dwarves use Klingon logic.

[unluckiest13]

I was going to post about my surprise that hitting someone with a hammer in the face wasn’t against Dwarven law, then I read the explanation that they are in a middle chamber, not the inner chamber yet. Then I thought it would probably be funniest if, after the preparation to influence the council through extensive exploitation of the laws, the vampires overlooked something simple that was allowed, and could stop them. Like a hammer in the face. Explicitly cited as permissible under Dwarf Law by ruling of King Hammerface. Also known as Hammerface the Terrible Debater.

I read all the forums but never had a profile. But i created one just so i could say that contextually "Hammerface the Terrible Debater" may be the funniest thing i have ever seen.

[rbetieh]

These guys seem to be pretty content with who they are
Dont be sorry for him. He had a good death (and hopefully life, too).

sch

It's a society that is forced to put down it's old and infirm due to consequences outside of their control... There are whole works of fiction about this kind of subject (a super creepy one that came to mind is Children of the Corn), but I dont think an external force ever caused those societies do act this way, and it's always portrayed as a horrible thing....

Who knows how much Kandro still had to teach? And yet, because the other result is far worse, these people celebrate his loss? It's tragic, not weird.

[factotum]

It's a society that is forced to put down it's old and infirm due to consequences outside of their control...

No it isn't. Just killing off their old because they're old would not be an honourable death. The old folk themselves have to willingly go into battle and die with honour, which is not the same thing as being "put down".

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think the dwarves are not going to worry so much about turning to stone past the blue barrier, so long as they can each get one effective spell or attack in to save the world. The Bet may ruin Hel's plan.

:smallbiggrin:

I love this post.

[Seward]

Strongest non-unique monster that Hel can gate to her followers:
-Has the defensive advantage and earth elemental summon support yet takes several comics to kill a single old dwarf that was already at death's door and so wanted to get killed in battle for an honorable end before a "dishonorable" demise in the bed.


Few points here.

Several Comic panels = one round to bite, one round to swallow based on 3.X rules. Actually it probably went something like this

round 1 - breaks the stone bridge with casual strength (no action, part of movement), grabs bard with bite attack.
Old dwarf hits him hard enough to do damage in that round (anybody with gear and levels enough to hit and damage that worm is a badass, in double digit levels at least. Age penalties don't matter, he has gear and or buffs to compensate)

Round 2 - wanting a tasty treat but getting low on hitpoints and knowing there is no chance in Hel he'll grab any of the OOTS, he goes for the bystander that hit him hard enough to feel it (and who is bantering with him). Grabs and grapples easily with bite attack.

Round 3 - nobody manages to kill the worm or rescue him. Dwarf fails to get out of grapple (probably instead swings and misses due to grapple penalties plus power attacking enough to do damage if he hits). Dwarf gets swallowed (again, the way critters scale, nobody wins a grapple check at CR18 unless they have freedom of movement or similar magical defense).

Note that in those 3 rounds, the Order STILL hasn't killed the damn thing. It's basically tanking. It lack sufficient offense to pose a real threat to the PCs but it is freaking durable. So it decides to grab a treat of opportunity :)

Even more geeky stuff from 2 decades of 3.5 and Pathfinder.

The above can be done in one less round if you assume the old dwarf also drew an attack of opportunity (perhaps attacking with his final iterative unarmed) to get grappled and thus prevent the worm from taking other AOOs. Honestly that's the most likely scenario since all that other rescue activity would have provoked AOO's all over the place. It would also make the grab-swallow more sudden, since normally you get a round to react (if worm goes first, bystanders wait till dwarf fighter draws AOO, they all go, but PCs have all already acted. So it goes first and swallows before anybody can do anything about it, making Haley's reaction similar to that of what players would do in that situation if they were still catching up mentally to the consequences of the dwarf fighter's choices).

All that is needed is for the dwarf to have an attack sequence that allows the top iterative to do damage to the worm and something later that provokes the grab. All the other actions would then follow pretty much like the comic shows it.

And to show I've played entirely too much of this game, I've seen several similar actions taken for quite similar reasons in game (nearly always to draw the AOO that gets somebody vulnerable to safety. Usually with the intention of surviving, but if the guy you are saving is the cleric, or at this tier, somebody who can wish you back to life, most folks are willing to suck up a death to prevent a total party wipe or an unrecoverable death). The most memorable being a rhemoraz where he calculated that the party could save him and calculated wrong. The only action my character could take was a complex thing to get a bit of his hair for a rez (those critters swallow you and incinerate you) and nobody else could really do much of anything except just try to hit the critter. Although ironically he survived exactly one round while swallowed and the party pulled out some crits and killed it just in time. So his saving the other person (who would NOT have survived being swallowed for a second) worked out ok.

This dwarf though wants to die, so that isn't gonna happen here. Although...the Order has been beating it up for a while. It might die next round and the old dude being irate because he was saved WOULD be pretty funny.

[dtilque]

I think the dwarves are not going to worry so much about turning to stone past the blue barrier, so long as they can each get one effective spell or attack in to save the world. The Bet may ruin Hel's plan.

That seems to be too obvious a way to get around that restriction, so I expect the blue barrier will prevent any attack from doing damage. Someone may test that out and be petrified without harming their target, though. Also, the petrification is only temporary. It ends when the Council is over.

I still like my idea that all these dwaves are going to form a new Clan on the spot, with Sigdi as Clan head. Then she'll get to vote against the motion.

[schmunzel]

It's a society that is forced to put down it's old and infirm due to consequences outside of their control... There are whole works of fiction about this kind of subject (a super creepy one that came to mind is Children of the Corn), but I dont think an external force ever caused those societies do act this way, and it's always portrayed as a horrible thing....

Who knows how much Kandro still had to teach? And yet, because the other result is far worse, these people celebrate his loss? It's tragic, not weird.

they are not "put down".

They (try to) make a conscious decision on how to die. (forced to make it by Thors wager.)
And even if it is potrayed as a horrible thing by some - those dwarves here quite obviously did not think of it as horrible.

What people need to wrap their head around is the necessity of death.
I have every respect for a person that decides that (s)he does not want to spend the rest of her days as a nursing case in adult day care.
Even if people around her/him cant let loose and would prefer to meet him/her at the bedside rather than the graveside.
Or are appalled at the thought of seeing somebody they care for die.

Think of it as a reflection at the inevitability of death. You may as well make the best out of it.

sch

[Endarire]

Comic alternative title: "Die like a dwarf!"

[Mightymosy]

I find it amusing how Sigdi's friends are now being celebrated for ideas Eugene was hated for.
Human reframing......gotta hate it, but gotta live with it with most people.

[HorizonWalker]

I find it amusing how Sigdi's friends are now being celebrated for ideas Eugene was hated for.
Human reframing......gotta hate it, but gotta live with it with most people.

The framing really is key. The Dwarven way is "gotta die of something; might as well make it count." The Eugene way, meanwhile, is "I'm perfectly content to let the whole world be destroyed, and have ten million dwarves be consigned to eternal torment in the afterlife, because it's convenient to my own personal goals and grudges."

[Mightymosy]

And there you have it :-)

[The Pilgrim]

I mean, my first thought when I saw that wasn't 'Art Mistake' or 'Returning Axe' but rather "Sidgi's really showing that combat experience, bringing a SPARE WEAPON with her on a dangerous mission." Not that I'd know where she was keeping it, but still.

She was keeping it in the same place Haley keeps her arrows. :smallbiggrin:

Would have been a good punchline next strip to cover for the art mistake.

[hroþila]

And there you have it :-)
It's not just the framing. Kandro didn't pick a pointless fight, he didn't charge the enemy recklessly, he wasn't trying to get himself killed: he simply happened to lose while doing his best for a good cause. It has nothing to do with what Eugene was suggesting.

[Kish]

There's also a key difference between "it's good that that man died" and "the entire species should die."

I mean, even if we pretend that Eugene wanting all the races that aren't bound by the bet to die for his convenience isn't horrific, before we even get to dwarves.

[The MunchKING]

The framing really is key. The Dwarven way is "gotta die of something; might as well make it count." The Eugene way, meanwhile, is "I'm perfectly content to let the whole world be destroyed, and have ten million dwarves be consigned to eternal torment in the afterlife, because it's convenient to my own personal goals and grudges."

To be fair to Eugene, as soon as he's told about the Dwarves Afterlife thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1047.html) he starts workshopping ideas to get as many of them killed honorably as they can before the end. He is (mostly) Lawful Good. He doesn't want Dwarf souls to suffer unjustly, he's just kind of selfish too.

[zimmerwald1915]

To be fair to Eugene, as soon as he's told about the Dwarves Afterlife thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1047.html) he starts workshopping ideas to get as many of them killed honorably as they can before the end. He is (mostly) Lawful Good. He doesn't want Dwarf souls to suffer unjustly, he's just kind of selfish too.
Good is not selfish, but altruistic, making personal sacrifices to help others.

[Clistenes]

As I said before... this is a win-win situation for the dwarves! It is either victory or Valhalla!

Mmmm... if you get petrified during battle and you get killed while petrified some time later... does it count as "honorably fallen in battle...?" :smallconfused:

[Marp]

Aw man, Kandro saying to Durkon "Just glad I got ta see ye first" and his "goodbye smile" to Sigdi when she assured him everybody was safe hit me in the feels. He probably knew he was getting into the last fight of his life and faced it in the proper stoic dwarf way!

[Kish]

To be fair to Eugene, as soon as he's told about the Dwarves Afterlife thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1047.html) he starts workshopping ideas to get as many of them killed honorably as they can before the end. He is (mostly) Lawful Good. He doesn't want Dwarf souls to suffer unjustly, he's just kind of selfish too.
"The world should end, as it would be more convenient for me" is kind of selfish in the way that a blue-white star is kind of slightly warm.

[Renegade Paladin]

So it's in the dwarves' interest to be really bad at fighting so that they lose and die. :smalltongue:

[Riftwolf]

There seems to be a lot of missed nuance in how Kandro died that people are glossing over. He didn't look to LDW, think 'well I'm gonna die soon anyway, may as well die charging pointlessly in certain death.' He charged in to save the bard kid, then taunted the LDW to stop it attacking Sigdi and Hoskin, who were also in a vulnerable position. He stayed holding it back till they were clear, but let his guard down when it was LDWs turn to attack. Even though he was pretty much a goner when swallowed, you still see some movement in LDWs gullet; he went down kicking and screaming.
If all of the dwarves had rushed LDW, knowing that they were guaranteed a good afterlife for doing so, that'd be the horrifying death cult (HDC?) Eugene was suggesting. That the oldest of them fought to hold back a creature he had no chance against from killing three dwarves younger than him isn't the same as all dwarves welcoming death.

[Riftwolf]

I wonder if he has a prestige class like Dashing Swordsman that uses the CHA modifier while saying an insult?

The Blue Streak Striker PrC! it took me way too long to think that one up

[Messenger]

When the Thundershield family arrived in #1162, I was so happy. It was such an awesome sight to see this entire clan linked by goodwill and sacrifice arrive to back up Durkon and Sigdi.

However, I quickly realize that this was a battle against vampires backed by a goddess of death. There'd be casualties. So while I was happy, I was also apprehensive and sad for those who'd die in the struggle. It'd be like each and every time you see an innocent or a good person in the comic die. Or even not-so-good-but-not-hated characters die. I always found it shocking and terrible.

But then I remembered that dwarves in the OotS-verse want to die in battle and are happy for it to happen.

And now that this update has rolled in and such is demonstrated- while it's still awesome to see Durkon and Sigdi's family fighting side-by-side- not only is the sadness and apprehension gone, but I gotta agree with everyone who posted the following below:


Dwarves ARE weird.

[Syncrogti]

Art mistake maybe? Kandro got bit in the second panel of the second comic on his right arm, but I don't see the damage later on. Not that it matters to me but it has been important in the past.

Fantastic comic, love how the dwarfs talk about Kandro and how stoked they are that he died in battle. Death is a new adventure, celebrate it.

[Rrmcklin]

they are not "put down".

They (try to) make a conscious decision on how to die. (forced to make it by Thors wager.)
And even if it is potrayed as a horrible thing by some - those dwarves here quite obviously did not think of it as horrible.

What people need to wrap their head around is the necessity of death.
I have every respect for a person that decides that (s)he does not want to spend the rest of her days as a nursing case in adult day care.
Even if people around her/him cant let loose and would prefer to meet him/her at the bedside rather than the graveside.
Or are appalled at the thought of seeing somebody they care for die.

Think of it as a reflection at the inevitability of death. You may as well make the best out of it.

sch

You can understand the inevitability/necessity of death, and still find the Dwarven arrangement terrible. And it's not particularly surprising his friends would react that way; they've all been raised/live in a culture that says it's not horrible. Yes, people should be able to ideally choose how they die, but don't try and turn this into something it's not supposed to be.

[jwhouk]

<snip>
...don't try and turn this into something it's not supposed to be.

This is about 90% of the problems on the interwebs, but that's another issue.

I'm wondering if Hoskin is going to try to fight his way out of the worm's gullet, to be honest.

[Peelee]

The Blue Streak Striker PrC!

I read that as "The Blue Streaker PrC." Which, I assume, has very different pre-reqs.

[The MunchKING]

Good is not selfish, but altruistic, making personal sacrifices to help others.

He's a mortal. He's allowed to have flaws that stop him from being a perfect manifestation of Good.


"The world should end, as it would be more convenient for me" is kind of selfish in the way that a blue-white star is kind of slightly warm.

"The Gods want to blow up the world for the good of everyone, you should stop struggling" makes it sound more fatalistic. :smallbiggrin:

And I mean the Gods are right that blowing them up and sending their souls to the afterlives would probably be better for everyone involved than getting devoured by the Snarl. Except the Dwarves obviously, so he tries to fix that. So I could see where agreeing with them about the world's chances and rolling with it would be seen as rational, even the best choice available to them.

I mean WE Know they (collectively) are going to win and save the world because we were promised a happy ending, but everyone without a beyond the 4th wall narrative view might see success as horribly unlikely at best, dangerously, catastrophicly, capable of going wrong at worst.


I read that as "The Blue Streaker PrC." Which, I assume, has very different pre-reqs.


But think of all the movement bonuses (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtzoUu7w-YM)!!

Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html) at Will is a fun power too...

[Rogar Demonblud]

This is about 90% of the problems on the interwebs, but that's another issue.

I'm wondering if Hoskin is going to try to fight his way out of the worm's gullet, to be honest.

Why would Hoskin want to do that? He just walked through the window into the Council atrium space.

Anyhow, can someone with the rulebooks fact check me: I don't think nightcrawlers get any kind of fast healing, but I'm not sure.

[Jasdoif]

Anyhow, can someone with the rulebooks fact check me: I don't think nightcrawlers get any kind of fast healing, but I'm not sure.They do not (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler); the temporary hit points from energy drain against swallowed creatures is as close as they get.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Okay, so the tongue is going to stay lopped off.

[Toper]

Anyhow, can someone with the rulebooks fact check me: I don't think nightcrawlers get any kind of fast healing, but I'm not sure.
No fast healing per se, but their wounds can randomly migrate up and down their bodies.

[Kish]

"The Gods want to blow up the world for the good of everyone, you should stop struggling" makes it sound more fatalistic. :smallbiggrin:
It also places Eugene's "barely pretending it's on his radar" excuse front and center and entirely omits his "not actually bothering to pretend it's not the main thing on his mind" motivation.

[hamishspence]

What about the black magic cloud when kandro is devoured? Did the worm consume his soul too?


Nightcrawlers drain levels from creatures they swallow. It was negative energy, basically.

The creature actually has to be inside the Nightcrawler's gizzard to suffer energy drain.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler

However, since they have at-will unholy blight, that could be it.

[danielxcutter]

It also places Eugene's "barely pretending it's on his radar" excuse front and center and entirely omits his "not actually bothering to pretend it's not the main thing on his mind" motivation.

To be honest, I think he's TN; he's just being judged at Celestia because he thinks he's LG. Don't think he's particularly farther away than that though; just because he doesn't really care about the dwarf situation too much doesn't mean he has no problem with it whatsoever. If he really didn't give a crap at all, he'd have said something like "Meh, can't help it", not "Hmm, okay good point.

[CJG]

I’m guessing that it’s this sort of attitude that Hilgya finds so disturbing. Of course it seems normal to the dwarves, they grew up in it. And it’s just a curiosity to the humans/elves, but to Hilgya who grew up in it, and hates it, I guess I can see where she’s coming from.

And yes I apologize for turning this towards Hilgya/Miko

[deuterio12]

They do not (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler); the temporary hit points from energy drain against swallowed creatures is as close as they get.

The comic's failcrawler has basically nothing to do with D&D's nightcrawler:
-Pathetic low AC that even decrepyt old dwarves cannot miss while nightcrawler has a whooping 35 AC
-No DR to speak off since decrepyt old dwarves can easily hurt it wielding weapons with only one hand while nightcrawler has DR 15/silver and magic.
-Pathetic primary tongue grab attack when the proper nightcrawler's primary means of attack is grabbing things with its teeth while injecting poison plus a poisonous tail sting.
-Cannot summon any undead while the nightcrawler can get a variety of powerful undead up to dread wraiths that would make short work of pesky dwarven militia.
-Cannot make aoos while nightcrawler has 15 feet reach meaning you're taking free hits just closing in when you're dwarf sized.
-Cannot speak properly whitout a tongue when nightcrawler has telepathy meaning it can talk no matter how hurt it is.

So next comic it may start healing its wounds spontaneously or sprout flowers and arms and legs and a hat and start singing making everybody dance along, who knows. The srd d20 is sadly no help telling us what the comic's failcrawler can or cannot do.

[zimmerwald1915]

{Scrubbed}

[zimmerwald1915]

He's a mortal. He's allowed to have flaws that stop him from being a perfect manifestation of Good.
There is a difference between flaws in an otherwise Good structure, or momentary slip-ups, and consistent characterization across all of his appearances so far. At some point you have to ignore what you're being told in favor of what you see with your own eyes.

[Riftwolf]

-Cannot summon any undead while the nightcrawler can get a variety of powerful undead up to dread wraiths that would make short work of pesky dwarven militia.

Just gonna leave this here...


Summon Undead (Su)
A nightcrawler can summon undead creatures once per night: 9-16 shadows, 3-6 greater shadows, or 2-4 dread wraiths. The undead arrive in 1d10 rounds and serve for 1 hour or until released.




-Pathetic primary tongue grab attack when the proper nightcrawler's primary means of attack is grabbing things with its teeth while injecting poison plus a poisonous tail sting

Why is the tongue now a primary attack? Every other attack we've seen from LDW has been a bite. If he has a secondary tongue attack that can pull a target into bite range, that makes him better than SRD. Also Nightcrawler bite isn't poisonous.

[Resileaf]

The comic's failcrawler has basically nothing to do with D&D's nightcrawler:
-Pathetic low AC that even decrepyt old dwarves cannot miss while nightcrawler has a whooping 35 AC
-No DR to speak off since decrepyt old dwarves can easily hurt it wielding weapons with only one hand while nightcrawler has DR 15/silver and magic.
-Pathetic primary tongue grab attack when the proper nightcrawler's primary means of attack is grabbing things with its teeth while injecting poison plus a poisonous tail sting.
-Cannot summon any undead while the nightcrawler can get a variety of powerful undead up to dread wraiths that would make short work of pesky dwarven militia.
-Cannot make aoos while nightcrawler has 15 feet reach meaning you're taking free hits just closing in when you're dwarf sized.
-Cannot speak properly whitout a tongue when nightcrawler has telepathy meaning it can talk no matter how hurt it is.

So next comic it may start healing its wounds spontaneously or sprout flowers and arms and legs and a hat and start singing making everybody dance along, who knows. The srd d20 is sadly no help telling us what the comic's failcrawler can or cannot do.

Maybe the decrepit old dwarf is an experienced adventurer with the levels to hit AC 35.
Maybe the decrepit old dwarf has a magic/silver weapon.
As Riftwolf said, no poison on Nightcrawler bite.
It's currently daytime, therefore the Nightcrawler can't summon anything.
The bridge is pretty damn far from the platform, and it's only by extending his reach that the Nightcrawler can destroy it. And the people on the bridge can make withdraw actions not to pull AoOs.
Rule of funny.

[eilandesq]

The comic's failcrawler has basically nothing to do with D&D's nightcrawler:
-Pathetic low AC that even decrepyt old dwarves cannot miss while nightcrawler has a whooping 35 AC
-No DR to speak off since decrepyt old dwarves can easily hurt it wielding weapons with only one hand while nightcrawler has DR 15/silver and magic.
-Pathetic primary tongue grab attack when the proper nightcrawler's primary means of attack is grabbing things with its teeth while injecting poison plus a poisonous tail sting.
-Cannot summon any undead while the nightcrawler can get a variety of powerful undead up to dread wraiths that would make short work of pesky dwarven militia.
-Cannot make aoos while nightcrawler has 15 feet reach meaning you're taking free hits just closing in when you're dwarf sized.
-Cannot speak properly whitout a tongue when nightcrawler has telepathy meaning it can talk no matter how hurt it is.

So next comic it may start healing its wounds spontaneously or sprout flowers and arms and legs and a hat and start singing making everybody dance along, who knows. The srd d20 is sadly no help telling us what the comic's failcrawler can or cannot do.

Without addressing any of the other points (which might be attributable to Rule of Cool), generally in 3.5 rules creatures who are themselves summoned can't use their own summoning powers, for reasons of game balance (infinite summoning chains are not fun for anyone but the summoners).

[happycrow]

Considering how old the other dwarves were making him out to be, he's also likely well past middle-aged and well into Old, which means he's probably fighting with at least a -3 to STR, DEX, and CON, though +2 to INT, WIS, and CHA. I wonder if he has a prestige class like Dashing Swordsman that uses the CHA modifier while saying an insult?

Considering he survived to Old in a culture where honorable death-seeking is taken for granted as the only outcome worth not shuddering about, my guess is that Old Kandro had a little tattoo somewhere saying "badass inside."

[eilandesq]

Not to bring up a thoroughly beaten dead horse, but that Harm spell that the Exarch just zapped Durkon with did a minimum of 55 HP to him even if he saved, and possibly more (5 x casting level to a max of 75 HP on a save, with the only limitation being that it can't reduce the target below 1 HP). Meaning that the damage on a save to Durkon would be more than the maximum average damage to Durkon from a certain CE evil tantrum thrower's Flame Strike on a *failed* save--and Durkon didn't look like someone with 1 HP left before the hammer did its healing thing, in spite of being a full level and likely 6-10 HP weaker than he was when hit with the Flame Strike. Just a reminder that he got a rather raw deal in that earlier incident all around.

[SirSoliloquy]

Just joining the thread to say I'm reminded of The Saga of Biorn. Which I'd post a Youtube link to if I had more than 4 posts on this forum.

[Fyraltari]

Just joining the thread to say I'm reminded of The Saga of Biorn. Which I'd post a Youtube link to if I had more than 4 posts on this forum.

To Valhalla!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5w262XvCU&app=desktop

[SirSoliloquy]

To Valhalla!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5w262XvCU

Thanks, man!

[Themrys]

Now that Hoskin has saved her life via outstretched arm, I wonder if Sigdi will be more receptive to his proposals?

I hope not.

Saving a woman's life does'nt make you more attractive to her. I know it'll disappoint all those boys who grew up with movies were saving the girl means you get to marry her, but that's just not how attraction works.

And I hope Sigdi is, by now, too old to let herself be guilted into marrying a man she isn't attracted to purely because she thinks she owes him her body in return for saving her life.

(I also don't think dwarves are so very grateful for being saved from death on the battlefield. At least older dwarves. As evidenced in this comic.)

[CJG]

There is a difference between flaws in an otherwise Good structure, or momentary slip-ups, and consistent characterization across all of his appearances so far. At some point you have to ignore what you're being told in favor of what you see with your own eyes.

The Giant makes points about how evil characters can still have functioning families and friendships, all while still being evil. I wonder if the inverse is true for good characters? Can a character be good while having terrible personal relationships as well?

[Squire Doodad]

I hope not.

Saving a woman's life does'nt make you more attractive to her. I know it'll disappoint all those boys who grew up with movies were saving the girl means you get to marry her, but that's just not how attraction works.

And I hope Sigdi is, by now, too old to let herself be guilted into marrying a man she isn't attracted to purely because she thinks she owes him her body in return for saving her life.

(I also don't think dwarves are so very grateful for being saved from death on the battlefield. At least older dwarves. As evidenced in this comic.)

Isn't Hoskin married anyways

[CJG]

I hope not.

Saving a woman's life does'nt make you more attractive to her. I know it'll disappoint all those boys who grew up with movies were saving the girl means you get to marry her, but that's just not how attraction works.

And I hope Sigdi is, by now, too old to let herself be guilted into marrying a man she isn't attracted to purely because she thinks she owes him her body in return for saving her life.

(I also don't think dwarves are so very grateful for being saved from death on the battlefield. At least older dwarves. As evidenced in this comic.)

Also, isn’t Hoskin married now? (Via Durkon Memory Dump?).

Dang. Beaten to it.

[Squire Doodad]

The Giant makes points about how evil characters can still have functioning families and friendships, all while still being evil. I wonder if the inverse is true for good characters? Can a character be good while having terrible personal relationships as well?

* looks at Haley *
* looks at Roy *
...yes.



Does Gontor have his own coffin? Right now it seems like he just needs to die in any way possible and he's gone, but if he has a coffin then...nah this is the final battle of this chapter.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, Hoskin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html) is married (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html).


Does Gontor have his own coffin? Right now it seems like he just needs to die in any way possible and he's gone, but if he has a coffin then...nah this is the final battle of this chapter.

Where would he have found a coffin? Durkon* could possibly have re-purposed a Mechane crate, just in case but Gontor*?

[Ezekiel]

Wouldn't Stone Shape be able to make a stone coffin?

[Oxenstierna]

What crawled up your ass and died?

It’s evidently not a nightcrawler because:

1) SRD describes it as burrowing through the ground, rather than crawling up ass.
2) It’s already dead.

:)

[Kish]

The Giant makes points about how evil characters can still have functioning families and friendships, all while still being evil.
Does he? Does he really?

Are you quite sure the example you're thinking of, or both the examples you're thinking of, didn't turn out to have a facade of a functioning relationship over a reality of "actually I'll literally murder you if you cross me"?

[zimmerwald1915]

Does he? Does he really?
Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html)


Consider the following example: In an old campaign, I had introduced two completely evil villains. Both had plans to conquer the world, and I had let the PCs know that they had known each other a century earlier. When the players discovered that they were working together, they couldn't understand it. "Why help each other?" they asked themselves, "It would make more sense to go it alone."

"Wait," said one player, "I bet that one is planning on helping the other up to a point, and then turning on him." They all agreed that this must be the reason for their alliance, and even formulated a plan to "warn" the lesser of the two evils about the other's presumed treachery. This was a solution that was arrived at by a fairly logical process, but it was completely and utterly incorrect. What the players had failed to consider was that the two villains were simply friends. They had grown up together, and trusted each other implicitly despite having every logical reason to not trust one another at all. The fact was that the villains were letting their emotional attachment to each other override strict logic; they had made an agreement to share control of the world, and both were intending to follow through. Further, by contacting the "lesser" villain, the PCs had accidentally tipped their hand that they knew the two were working together, allowing the villains to set up an ambush for the players in a future session. By relying on logic and logic alone, the players had gravely miscalculated their foes.
No one thinks of this example anymore though. It's too old.

[Rrmcklin]

Does he? Does he really?

Are you quite sure the example you're thinking of, or both the examples you're thinking of, didn't turn out to have a facade of a functioning relationship over a reality of "actually I'll literally murder you if you cross me"?


Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html)


No one thinks of this example anymore though. It's too old.

That being said, I'd make a distinction between "evil people can have genuine emotional attachments" and "every villain will have genuine emotional attachments."

[zimmerwald1915]

That being said, I'd make a distinction between "evil people can have genuine emotional attachments" and "every villain will have genuine emotional attachments."
Quite. As Kish pointed out, of the three villains-with-families that come to mind in The Order of the Stick (Samantha, Redcloak, and Tarquin), none is anywhere near as functional as the friendship Mr. Burlew describes in his article.

[Squire Doodad]

Does he? Does he really?

Are you quite sure the example you're thinking of, or both the examples you're thinking of, didn't turn out to have a facade of a functioning relationship over a reality of "actually I'll literally murder you if you cross me"?

Actually yes.
Even within OotS, the Vector Legion have a strong relationship with each other. While to some extent there is that bit of "you try to take advantage of the friendship and you wake up with a knife in your neck", they do care about each other. Look at how Laurin reacted when she found out Malack was killed.

There's also something about Nale and Sabine. They might be both evil, but they literally have the healthiest romantic relationship in the comic up until the Katos become a thing. I'm pretty sure the "sacrificial altar for love" bit was more of a sexual drive thing than their actual relationship.

[mjasghar]

I think the dwarves are not going to worry so much about turning to stone past the blue barrier, so long as they can each get one effective spell or attack in to save the world. The Bet may ruin Hel's plan.
It’s only temporary I think

[Kish]

Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html)


No one thinks of this example anymore though. It's too old.
People wave that example around all the time. And I wish people would disregard it because it is old and, from where I'm sitting, directly contradictory to what Rich is actually presenting now, over a decade later, in the story. Perspectives can change, y'know.

Nor is the Vector Legion a counterexample (very little is actually established about their interpersonal relationships, as distinct from the facade they present to the world; in what is, Tarquin clearly had no ethical trouble manipulating Malack and trying to get him to accept his spawn's destruction for the sake of Tarquin maintaining his ego object). Nale and Sabine come the closest, and since both unhesitatingly pursue their own agendas behind the other's back, including Sabine's answer to whether she loved Nale was "Yeah. I mean, I think so. I mean, it's complicated," they don't actually come very close at all.

It’s only temporary I think
Temporary or not, it ate'nt death. Petrified people don't go to any afterlife, bet or no bet.

[zimmerwald1915]

People wave that example around all the time. And I wish people would disregard it because it is old and, from where I'm sitting, directly contradictory to what Rich is actually presenting now, over a decade later, in the story. Perspectives can change, y'know.
I don't buy the notion that Tarquin, Nale, Redcloak, or Samantha are meant to be representative of all Evil in its capacity to sustain relationships. They are too few, and too individuated.

It is certainly the case that Tarquin and Redcloak in particular are set up as potential examples of Evil people that do have functional relationships, and that those expectations are subverted. But that only says something about them.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Without addressing any of the other points (which might be attributable to Rule of Cool), generally in 3.5 rules creatures who are themselves summoned can't use their own summoning powers, for reasons of game balance (infinite summoning chains are not fun for anyone but the summoners).

The Nightcrawler wasn't summoned. It came via Gate, so it can summon all it wants once the sun goes down.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Wouldn't Stone Shape be able to make a stone coffin?

It can make a coffin shaped object. It can't make an actual coffin, that requires some ritual that Malack never bothered to teach Durkula.

[zimmerwald1915]

It can make a coffin shaped object. It can't make an actual coffin, that requires some ritual that Malack never bothered to teach Durkula.
Pretty sure Hel taught each of her vampiric minions how to make a coffin as part of the standard infodump. It's just, they've had no reason to make coffins (especially since they all think the world's gonna end shortly), and all but Durkon's vampire have had no opportunity.

[Fyraltari]

I would assume that all that is required is to lay motionless in it for a while.Maybe even the three days a normal vampire is supposed to do. After all what is a coffin but a box wityh a(n un)dead body inside?

[AdAstra]

In regard to the "Can Evil characters have functioning relationships with other people" question, did everyone just forget about Laurin and her daughter, or the Black Dragon and her son? While one could argue that hiding a double-life as part of a continental conspiracy of nations under the pretext of helping isn't exactly the healthiest of interpersonal relationships, it seems to by all means be loving and genuine. And there really can't be any argument that the ABD didn't love her son, and also by some incidental dialogue one can infer she really cared for her mate as well.

What those two characters were willing to do for their kids was messed up and Evil, but the actual bond those characters had was seemingly as healthy as such things get, at the very least being better than the relationships most of the OOTS have with their own families, except for probably Durkon.

[CJG]

Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html)


No one thinks of this example anymore though. It's too old.

This actually was the first thing I was thinking of! (It was recently linked to). The others were Redcloak’s hobgoblin epiphany, the fact that the goblins could function in an actual society and Lirin’s affection for her daughter (though that one is on rough ground as we never meet them)

Edit: Yes! The black dragon too! Thanks AdAstra!

[eilandesq]

I would assume that all that is required is to lay motionless in it for a while.Maybe even the three days a normal vampire is supposed to do. After all what is a coffin but a box wityh a(n un)dead body inside?

Traditionally, it would require the coffin to contain some dirt from the vampire's original burial site. Since none of these vampires resulting from Malack deciding to procreate *have* an original burial site, a reasonable conclusion would be that the use of the "bypass the three days in the ground" spell at least temporarily removes the coffin option for vampires created by it (there might be a ritual that Malack knew that could overcome the issue, but never had a chance to use due to his close encounter with sunlight).

[KorvinStarmast]

Good is not selfish, but altruistic, making personal sacrifices to help others. Interesting bit of pigeonholing going on here. The ideal of good may be altruism, but the difference between "ideal" and actual has variation. The discussion the Deva has with Roy touches on there being layers and grades of good.

[Rrmcklin]

Interesting bit of pigeonholing going on here. The ideal of good may be altruism, but the difference between "ideal" and actual has variation. The discussion the Deva has with Roy touches on there being layers and grades of good.

True, but the point has been made repeatedly that nothing about Eugene really screams "good" except for the fact that we know he comes from a Lawful Good family, and wants/expects to get into the Lawful Good afterlife.

[Worldsong]

True, but the point has been made repeatedly that nothing about Eugene really screams "good" except for the fact that we know he comes from a Lawful Good family, and wants/expects to get into the Lawful Good afterlife.

I feel like a lot of Eugene's behaviour has to do with him being stuck in the cloudzone for years on end with no release in sight. Granted even before his death he's depicted as a terrible father but most of his more questionable acts have to do with him being desperate to finally pass on for good.

Not that this exonerates him but good people can become quite unpleasant if they're stressed and pushed to the limit.

And as has been pointed out by others, he did immediately acknowledge that the dwarves being cast to Hel would be a bad thing and tried to figure out a solution. Of course he tried to figure out a solution which would include him passing on, but it's not like he just dismissed the dwarves as being unimportant. His idea of letting the gods destroy the world was based on the idea that good people would go to the good afterlives.

Which is another point. Part of this thread has been about how the dwarven perspective is odd, but it's not like everyone who is not a dwarf in the OotS world has a perspective regarding death comparable to ours. Everyone is aware that the afterlives exist and that your afterlife depends on your alignment (on death mostly). The dwarves are just the extreme example where they've been informed that unless they die with honour they're automatically thrown into a bad afterlife so they're the ones who are downright enthusiastic about dying as long as it's honourable.

For Eugene to decide that the gods might as well destroy the world is obviously for the largest part motivated by his desire to just. Freaking. Pass. On. Already (emphasizing this in an attempt to portray his mindset), but also because the alternative could be that the snarl devours all the souls left on the planet, and also because the good people are going to get the good afterlives anyway so it's not as horrible an idea as it would be for us. Hel, back at the Godsmoot Roy had to concede that Heimdall might have a good argument for destroying the world.

Like Roy Eugene was an adventurer during at least part of his life, and if Roy's mother is to be believed he wasn't a stranger to death and resurrection. I'm not saying that Eugene isn't very unpleasant and twisted by his desperation but his willingness to let the world be destroyed might partially be because this story is about a world where death is not the end and (most) people get their just rewards after death, which softens the awfulness of death a bit. So while the dwarves have an extreme perspective, one of unusual glee, the other inhabitants of the world might just be more neutral to the position especially if they're personally familiar with the process.

EDIT: of course the good people still try to prevent others dying if possible: Roy in particular makes it clear that he doesn't approve of genocide even if it would only come about through inaction. But it does seem to me that it's possible for someone to be more nonchalant on the issue without it changing their alignment from Good to Neutral or Evil.

I mean, hasn't that been a topic for debate long before Eugene showed his face? How the DnD alignment system must somehow use a definition of Good which allows for the possibility of killing without it harming your karma? In our world to kill is most often at best only seen as a necessary evil and only when dealing with absolute monstrous people.

[Rogar Demonblud]

We see Eugene's gravestone in On the Origin of PCs. He's been dead like six times.

And Malack explicitly states that Durkula is at great risk of being destroyed until Malack can teach him the ritual he created that lets him create a coffin. This isn't something the other vampires can get from Hel. Maybe from Nergal, if Malack shared it with his god.

[Wizard_Lizard]

True, but the point has been made repeatedly that nothing about Eugene really screams "good" except for the fact that we know he comes from a Lawful Good family, and wants/expects to get into the Lawful Good afterlife.

In Discworld, you get whatever afterlife you think that you are going to...

[Riftwolf]

In Discworld, you get whatever afterlife you think that you are going to...

Most of the time. Sometimes you get the afterlife that thinks you should get it (can't remember exact quote, but it's after a ratcatcher dies and gets reincarnated as a rat, despite not believing in reincarnation)
Also, Oots isn't Discworld, and Rich has explicitly said he hasn't read Discworld to prevent even subconscious overlap.

[eilandesq]

We see Eugene's gravestone in On the Origin of PCs. He's been dead like six times.

And Malack explicitly states that Durkula is at great risk of being destroyed until Malack can teach him the ritual he created that lets him create a coffin. This isn't something the other vampires can get from Hel. Maybe from Nergal, if Malack shared it with his god.

I suspect that Hel *could* give the spell to her clerics if the need arose--she's just never had a vampiric cleric of high level long enough for it to be an issue before, and at this point there's been no *time* to use it. If Hel somehow won and ended up with her clerical rights fully restored, you'd better believe that she'd make sure that her clerics had access to the anti-sunlight spell, the instant vampirism spell, and the "gain coffin rights later" spell right out of the box.

[factotum]

We see Eugene's gravestone in On the Origin of PCs. He's been dead like six times.

Meaning what? We know that people don't remember what happened while they were dead after being resurrected (see: Roy), so even though Eugene would have had to sit through the "Blood Oath" interview with the deva every time, he wouldn't remember it and thus wouldn't change his lifestyle to match.

[Fyraltari]

Meaning what? We know that people don't remember what happened while they were dead after being resurrected (see: Roy), so even though Eugene would have had to sit through the "Blood Oath" interview with the deva every time, he wouldn't remember it and thus wouldn't change his lifestyle to match.

Roy remembers the interview, he remembers everythingup to the point he passed the golden gates.

[Ruck]

I feel like a lot of Eugene's behaviour has to do with him being stuck in the cloudzone for years on end with no release in sight. Granted even before his death he's depicted as a terrible father but most of his more questionable acts have to do with him being desperate to finally pass on for good.

I think the dead Eugene we've seen lines up pretty well with the alive Eugene we've seen.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Most of the time. Sometimes you get the afterlife that thinks you should get it (can't remember exact quote, but it's after a ratcatcher dies and gets reincarnated as a rat, despite not believing in reincarnation)
Also, Oots isn't Discworld, and Rich has explicitly said he hasn't read Discworld to prevent even subconscious overlap.

I know Rich hasnt read discworld. I was just making an observation...
and I think the quote is


REINCARNATION BELIEVES IN YOU.

[factotum]

Roy remembers the interview, he remembers everythingup to the point he passed the golden gates.

No he doesn't? He says when talking to Haley about it in #666:

"I remember the clouds, and my father, and a glowing ball of light. And I remember what I saw when I was floating around down here."

Given that the "glowing ball of light" introduced himself to Roy while they were still on the clouds, you'd think he'd have remembered that being his archon if he remembered that part of things clearly. You'd also think he would have mentioned the Blood Oath interview, which he does not.

[Worldsong]

No he doesn't? He says when talking to Haley about it in #666:

"I remember the clouds, and my father, and a glowing ball of light. And I remember what I saw when I was floating around down here."

Given that the "glowing ball of light" introduced himself to Roy while they were still on the clouds, you'd think he'd have remembered that being his archon if he remembered that part of things clearly. You'd also think he would have mentioned the Blood Oath interview, which he does not.

That quote you used is followed up by another sentence which clarifies things a bit further:

"But beyond the Big Golden Gate... it's all a blur. A big happy fulfilling blur, but still."

Everything beyond the golden gate lacks detail, but he phrases it as a contrast in that everything before the golden gate is remembered. And yes he called the archon a glowing ball of light and didn't mention the Blood Oath but you could find explanations for that which don't leave you to wonder why he'd specify that everything beyond the golden gate was a blur if everything beforehand was hazy as well.

Maybe he called the archon a glowing ball of light because that's what the archon is. Maybe he expected Haley to have questions if he called it the archon because archon isn't actually a very descriptive term so he just went with the straightforward approach. Maybe the archon just isn't that important. Maybe he didn't mention the Blood Oath since it doesn't affect him as long as he just keeps at it. Maybe he expects the others to start worrying if they hear about how it could have costed Roy his eternal rest. Maybe he's concerned they might start feeling obligated to follow him rather than doing it because they believe it's right. Maybe, once more, the Blood Oath would lead to more questions while once again not being that important (as long as he keeps at it). Or maybe he was just rattling off a quick description and wasn't planning to go into full detail.

All of them are maybes but they all fit the narrative because leaving out details and using simple descriptions for things and all that stuff is entirely normal for people to do. It doesn't require some weighty motivation either, people leave out details and information all the time. Hell, it could even be that at the moment of describing his stay in the waiting room the name of the glowing ball of light evaded him without it meaning he couldn't remember anything of importance up there.

EDIT: Oh, another one, maybe he HAS talked about the archon and the Blood Oath in more detail to his friends, but off screen since not every conversation is written down.

[Fyraltari]

No he doesn't? He says when talking to Haley about it in #666:

"I remember the clouds, and my father, and a glowing ball of light. And I remember what I saw when I was floating around down here."

Given that the "glowing ball of light" introduced himself to Roy while they were still on the clouds, you'd think he'd have remembered that being his archon if he remembered that part of things clearly. You'd also think he would have mentioned the Blood Oath interview, which he does not.

Interview: on the clouds, which he remembers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html).

Archon: not on the clouds. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html)

Everything before the gates he remembers, everything after he is unclear but he knows there was a glowing ball of light and he remembered the Spellsplinter.

[pwning doodes]

It occurrs to me that it must be extra nice for Green Dwarf and his "family", since the first time he went to Hel. He got his death right this time around, though. (I think he was one of the resurrected ones. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

[hroþila]

Interview: on the clouds, which he remembers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html).

Archon: not on the clouds. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html)

Everything before the gates he remembers, everything after he is unclear but he knows there was a glowing ball of light and he remembered the Spellsplinter.

Archon: on the clouds. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html)

[Fyraltari]

It occurrs to me that it must be extra nice for Green Dwarf and his "family", since the first time he went to Hel. He got his death right this time around, though. (I think he was one of the resurrected ones. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

You mean Kandro?

Yes he is. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html)

Thirden became a successful bard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html), Shira owns mines (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html), Logann's mother had children (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html), Hoskin married (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html) and Kandro got his do-over.

Edit:

Archon: on the clouds. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html)

So Roy remembers knowing a glowing ball, but not who that was. Makes sense to me.

[Squire Doodad]

You mean Kandro?

Yes he is. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html)

Thirden became a successful bard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html), Shira owns mines (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html), Logann's mother had children (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html), Hoskin married (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html) and Kandro got his do-over.


Shirra works in a silver mine does not necessarily own it, though honestly its not much of a stretch to say that shes an overseer or possibly actually runs the whole thing.
All of them got a second chance at life and managed to do well with it though, and that's what matters.
Kandro did something a bit more important but I can't recall what.

[Mightymosy]

Actually yes.
Even within OotS, the Vector Legion have a strong relationship with each other. While to some extent there is that bit of "you try to take advantage of the friendship and you wake up with a knife in your neck", they do care about each other. Look at how Laurin reacted when she found out Malack was killed.

There's also something about Nale and Sabine. They might be both evil, but they literally have the healthiest romantic relationship in the comic up until the Katos become a thing. I'm pretty sure the "sacrificial altar for love" bit was more of a sexual drive thing than their actual relationship.


In regard to the "Can Evil characters have functioning relationships with other people" question, did everyone just forget about Laurin and her daughter, or the Black Dragon and her son? While one could argue that hiding a double-life as part of a continental conspiracy of nations under the pretext of helping isn't exactly the healthiest of interpersonal relationships, it seems to by all means be loving and genuine. And there really can't be any argument that the ABD didn't love her son, and also by some incidental dialogue one can infer she really cared for her mate as well.

What those two characters were willing to do for their kids was messed up and Evil, but the actual bond those characters had was seemingly as healthy as such things get, at the very least being better than the relationships most of the OOTS have with their own families, except for probably Durkon.

Yes to both of those.

In fact, VL seems to be made to emphasize just how well *internally* a group of otherwise totally rotten evil people can be.

People bring up Tarquin and Malack's discussion - but I would compare this to Roy and Elan......I'd think the former have a more healthy relationship.
Yes, Tarquin is REALLY quick to get over Malack's death, but then I remember Roy's reaction to Elan being abducted....

For me, VL's internal relations remind me VERY MUCH of the old Giant quote about the two endbosses.


I feel like a lot of Eugene's behaviour has to do with him being stuck in the cloudzone for years on end with no release in sight. Granted even before his death he's depicted as a terrible father but most of his more questionable acts have to do with him being desperate to finally pass on for good.

Not that this exonerates him but good people can become quite unpleasant if they're stressed and pushed to the limit.

And as has been pointed out by others, he did immediately acknowledge that the dwarves being cast to Hel would be a bad thing and tried to figure out a solution. Of course he tried to figure out a solution which would include him passing on, but it's not like he just dismissed the dwarves as being unimportant. His idea of letting the gods destroy the world was based on the idea that good people would go to the good afterlives.

Which is another point. Part of this thread has been about how the dwarven perspective is odd, but it's not like everyone who is not a dwarf in the OotS world has a perspective regarding death comparable to ours. Everyone is aware that the afterlives exist and that your afterlife depends on your alignment (on death mostly). The dwarves are just the extreme example where they've been informed that unless they die with honour they're automatically thrown into a bad afterlife so they're the ones who are downright enthusiastic about dying as long as it's honourable.

For Eugene to decide that the gods might as well destroy the world is obviously for the largest part motivated by his desire to just. Freaking. Pass. On. Already (emphasizing this in an attempt to portray his mindset), but also because the alternative could be that the snarl devours all the souls left on the planet, and also because the good people are going to get the good afterlives anyway so it's not as horrible an idea as it would be for us. Hel, back at the Godsmoot Roy had to concede that Heimdall might have a good argument for destroying the world.

Like Roy Eugene was an adventurer during at least part of his life, and if Roy's mother is to be believed he wasn't a stranger to death and resurrection. I'm not saying that Eugene isn't very unpleasant and twisted by his desperation but his willingness to let the world be destroyed might partially be because this story is about a world where death is not the end and (most) people get their just rewards after death, which softens the awfulness of death a bit. So while the dwarves have an extreme perspective, one of unusual glee, the other inhabitants of the world might just be more neutral to the position especially if they're personally familiar with the process.

EDIT: of course the good people still try to prevent others dying if possible: Roy in particular makes it clear that he doesn't approve of genocide even if it would only come about through inaction. But it does seem to me that it's possible for someone to be more nonchalant on the issue without it changing their alignment from Good to Neutral or Evil.

I mean, hasn't that been a topic for debate long before Eugene showed his face? How the DnD alignment system must somehow use a definition of Good which allows for the possibility of killing without it harming your karma? In our world to kill is most often at best only seen as a necessary evil and only when dealing with absolute monstrous people.

Just want to say that
"soften the awfulness" is quite the understatement! Not only do the OotS people KNOW there IS an afterlife, it even contains stuff a lot of RL people would gladly switch their actual RL for, I'd think.

That really changes the discussion more than people seem acknowledge, even if the author complains that Roy still finds death bad despite how pleasant the afterlife is.

A paradise after death REALLY makes death less unpleasant.
That's the whole point of a paradise after death, whether that's a house with your mother and your little brother or a card game and beer with Thor.

[zimmerwald1915]

All of them got a second chance at life and managed to do well with it though, and that's what matters.
Which has some telling implications, actually. All they needed to get out of a life in the mines was a kick in the pants - or in other words, sufficient will? There wasn't anything keeping them there? No lack of capital that prevented them pursuing a life of idle investment or eclectic education, for instance? It can't be that dwarven society has generous social support. Sigdi subsists on a meager pension, and the Firehelms anticipate being tossed out on the street.

[Rrmcklin]

Yes to both of those.

In fact, VL seems to be made to emphasize just how well *internally* a group of otherwise totally rotten evil people can be.

People bring up Tarquin and Malack's discussion - but I would compare this to Roy and Elan......I'd think the former have a more healthy relationship.
Yes, Tarquin is REALLY quick to get over Malack's death, but then I remember Roy's reaction to Elan being abducted....

For me, VL's internal relations remind me VERY MUCH of the old Giant quote about the two endbosses.


Comparing Tarquin and Malack's relationship to Roy and Elan's doesn't actually make sense for this. Tarquin and Malack, despite their difference were supposed to be best friends. Roy, very clearly, disliked Elan when he abandoned him, and even now they aren't what I would call "best friends." The two relationships aren't framed in the same way for the comparison to be meaningful.

If you did want to do that, Roy and Durkon strike me as the better compare and contrast, and they come out looking better than Tarquin and Malack from every angle that I can see.