Orcus Undead Summons: vs Demogorgon [Spoilers]

[Alejandro]

Tomorrow, as the finale of Out of The Abyss, each of us players will be controlling a demon lord, to battle it out. I have been given Orcus, so my main target to defeat is Demogorgon.

Reviewing what he can do, the strongest weapon seems to be summoning 500 hp worth of undead. Since Demogorgon can’t fly, it seems summoning a black dracolich, with an illithid lich (appropriate to the story) riding said dracolich, would be a great way to rain damage on Demogorgon that he can’t easily return.

Other ideas? Thoughts?

[TheExplosiveRog]

That's a fun way to just cheese out your opponent, and don't forget Orcus can fly as well.

[Alejandro]

That's a fun way to just cheese out your opponent, and don't forget Orcus can fly as well.

Right. I have no intention of coming down to get bulldozed by the Sibilant Beast.

[Seclora]

Okay, so I just checked, and you can't do both an Ancient Black Dracolich(367 average HP) and a Illithilich(135 average HP). You could, however, do an Adult Black Dracolich(195 average HP), an Illithilich(135 average HP), and 10 Shadows (16 average HP). I agree strongly with both the choice of the Black Dracolich and the Illithilich, as they target a damage non-strength and a weak save/condition receptivity respectively. They also counterbalance your own lack of AoE and spellcasting. Your flight and theirs make for an enormous strategic asset, coupled with the fact that you are one of the only Demon Princes with a ranged attack(Chill Touch at 4d8). You should plan on using your Creeping Death Legendary Action at the end of the turn prior to yours in order to maximize your damage.

Now bear with me, because Shadows are almost literally weakness personified. However, even with their paltry to hit, a mob of Shadows will either A) soak up attacks that could be used on other adversaries, or B) reduce your adversaries ability to land hits, while reducing their damage using cumulative Strength Damage resulting in incapacitation. They'll hit on an 18 or better, but have 10 chances to do so each turn that they're ignored, and every hit has a 75% chance to lower the target's Strength Modifier by 1 or more, with a maximum of 29 hits to outright win, in addition to a damage type that is not resisted and synergistic with your own abilities. What's more, unlike the average adventuring party, none of the Demon Princes have an AoE effect. That means that they will have to spend their attacks on small cheap targets instead of serious threats like each other or you and your Illithilich/Dracolich combo. It just so happens that Weakness Personified is probably your best option in a fight like this.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Other ideas? Thoughts?

I feel like looking up Demogorgon's stats ahead of time is a little cheesy, but if you're going to mob him with undead, the poster above me has the right of it.

They really nerfed the Demon Lord's abilities a bit too much this edition. They should have made Demogorgon's gaze attacks affect an area, maybe given him a couple more spell-like abilities.

[Seclora]

I feel like looking up Demogorgon's stats ahead of time is a little cheesy, but if you're going to mob him with undead, the poster above me has the right of it.

They really nerfed the Demon Lord's abilities a bit too much this edition. They should have made Demogorgon's gaze attacks affect an area, maybe given him a couple more spell-like abilities.

Thank you, I spent a lot of time comparing undead for the best option! Beholder Zombies and Allips were my number three and two options respectively, with Skull Lords and Demiliches considered in place of the Illithilich.

I agree, they really nerfed all the outsiders this edition. Building a boss monster without a ranged option is foolish really. I mean Grazz't and his Teleport is the only real threat here, and teleporting to a flying target is one of those always questionably effective tactics.

[Alejandro]

Okay, so I just checked, and you can't do both an Ancient Black Dracolich(367 average HP) and a Illithilich(135 average HP). You could, however, do an Adult Black Dracolich(195 average HP), an Illithilich(135 average HP), and 10 Shadows (16 average HP). I agree strongly with both the choice of the Black Dracolich and the Illithilich, as they target a damage non-strength and a weak save/condition receptivity respectively. They also counterbalance your own lack of AoE and spellcasting. Your flight and theirs make for an enormous strategic asset, coupled with the fact that you are one of the only Demon Princes with a ranged attack(Chill Touch at 4d8). You should plan on using your Creeping Death Legendary Action at the end of the turn prior to yours in order to maximize your damage.

Now bear with me, because Shadows are almost literally weakness personified. However, even with their paltry to hit, a mob of Shadows will either A) soak up attacks that could be used on other adversaries, or B) reduce your adversaries ability to land hits, while reducing their damage using cumulative Strength Damage resulting in incapacitation. They'll hit on an 18 or better, but have 10 chances to do so each turn that they're ignored, and every hit has a 75% chance to lower the target's Strength Modifier by 1 or more, with a maximum of 29 hits to outright win, in addition to a damage type that is not resisted and synergistic with your own abilities. What's more, unlike the average adventuring party, none of the Demon Princes have an AoE effect. That means that they will have to spend their attacks on small cheap targets instead of serious threats like each other or you and your Illithilich/Dracolich combo. It just so happens that Weakness Personified is probably your best option in a fight like this.

I meant an alhoon; not the formal illithilich. Sorry :) as for knowing Demogorgons strengths and weaknesses, Orcus definitely will know.

[Kintar]

I feel like looking up Demogorgon's stats ahead of time is a little cheesy, but if you're going to mob him with undead, the poster above me has the right of it.

They really nerfed the Demon Lord's abilities a bit too much this edition. They should have made Demogorgon's gaze attacks affect an area, maybe given him a couple more spell-like abilities.

I never understood that based on the way the campaign was written that it was a foregone conclusion that Demogorgon would win. Orcus always seemed to have it, hands down.

[Seclora]

I meant an alhoon; not the formal illithilich. Sorry :) as for knowing Demogorgons strengths and weaknesses, Orcus definitely will know.

No no, use the formal Illithilich. that Legendary Action to both use and recharge the Mind Blast gives you lock down potential targeting a weak save. Plus all of that beautiful Lich casting.

[Naanomi]

Much of Demogorgon’s strength comes not from personal combat power... but from alliances with other powerful (but less politically active) demon lords; as well as the immense power being the declared Prince of Demonkind (recognized by the Abyss itself, if not other demons necessarily)... when bound out of the Abyss without allies or hometurf advantage he is in a very precarious situation (well... until killed and he reforms in the Abyss I suppose)

[MaxWilson]

If I were you, what I'd be worried about isn't defeating Demogorgon--it's what to do when all of the other demon lords focus fire on YOU! Orcus is clearly the strongest Demon Lord and it would make sense for them to all prioritize ganging up on you before turning on each other.


No no, use the formal Illithilich. that Legendary Action to both use and recharge the Mind Blast gives you lock down potential targeting a weak save. Plus all of that beautiful Lich casting.

Yes, almost everything in the game including Demogorgon is pretty weak against both Mind Blast and the legendary Tentacle Attack. Demogorgon will fail his save against Tentacle Attack about 70% of the time and then it's hasta la vista, baby--Demogorgon is stunned until the grapple is broken, with none of that save-every-round nonsense, which means he's toast unless some other demon lord rescues him.

Probably the nastiest thing you could do to Demogorgon is to summon up 3 illithiliches (405 HP), 3 Shadows (48 HP) and 23 Crawling Claws (46 HP), then assign all of the Crawling Claws to Helping the other undead hit. With advantage from Help, each time an illithilich burns a legendary action on Tentacle Attack, it has an 80% chance of hitting Demogorgon and a 70% chance of him failing his saving throw, which means (80% * 70%) 56% chance of him getting stunlocked, per legendary action spent. And you're making 9 of these attempts per round, so he ought to fail 5 saves in a single round, eating up all of his legendary resistance and then some, and that's not even counting what the illithiliches do with their actual actions (Mind Blast, Spellcasting, etc.). The Shadows are basically just there for insurance, to threaten necrotic damage and strength drain and to make your illithiliches still have Help even if Demogorgon casts Fear (Shadows are immune to fear).

But, if you have to take on all of the other demon lords too, you'll want more mobility. I'd go with the aforementioned dragon + liches combo. I'd go with Adult Black Dracolich (195 HP) + 2 Illithiliches (270 HP) + 17 Crawling Claws (34 HP) = 499 HP, assuming you can cram all of those on the back of one dracolich.

You may want to delay summoning all of these creatures until late in the fight--start the fight by Dodging and flying up in the air, pew-pewing with little cantrips with your legendary actions so people think you're not much of a threat. Then once most of the other demon lords are down or dying, that's when you cast Time Stop, move to the perfect position, and then bust out the aforementioned horde of illithiliches, etc. and finish the fight. They'll never know what hit them.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I agree, they really nerfed all the outsiders this edition.
I agree in theory with the designers in that a lot of the outsiders in some previous editions had more spell-like abilities than they really needed, with some of the stronger ones having over a dozen powers you'd never see them actually use more than three or four of, but I think they overcompensated in 5th Edition.

Building a boss monster without a ranged option is foolish really. I mean Grazz't and his Teleport is the only real threat here, and teleporting to a flying target is one of those always questionably effective tactics.
It really wouldn't have been too much to give him Fireball, like a Pit Fiend. Or Cloudkill, if you prefer a different thematic. I don't think it would have even affected his CR, just made him more balanced.

[Wizard_Lizard]

summon about 50 skeletons, as long as the demogorgon doesn't have an area attack....

[Amano666]

spoilers huh?

[MaxWilson]

summon about 50 skeletons, as long as the demogorgon doesn't have an area attack....

He's immune to nonmagical weapons.

[Waazraath]

Fortunatly I was able to stop reading after the first half of the sentence, but how about a bloody "Out Of The Abyss SPOILER" tag in the title?:smallmad:

[Seclora]

I agree in theory with the designers in that a lot of the outsiders in some previous editions had more spell-like abilities than they really needed, with some of the stronger ones having over a dozen powers you'd never see them actually use more than three or four of, but I think they overcompensated in 5th Edition.

It really wouldn't have been too much to give him Fireball, like a Pit Fiend. Or Cloudkill, if you prefer a different thematic. I don't think it would have even affected his CR, just made him more balanced.

Honestly, Eldritch Blast. Every creature capable of being a Warlock Patron should just get Eldritch Blast by default.