A quick RAI/RAW question, please help

[Jon_Dahl]

Hi, the game is starting in two hours and I need to understand the following:
Can a grappled bralani escape grapple by using its whirlwind form? Can you grapple a whirlwind? My strong opinion is that yes and no, respectively, but I am interested in hearing other opinions.

[Falontani]

Nothing specifically grants the bralani immunity to grapple (or an air/water elemental for that matter). However this is where the dm should make a call...

[Job]

Can a grappled bralani escape grapple by using its whirlwind form?

The phrasing of alternate form in the SRD states that unless otherwise specified the new form has all the other forms' characteristics so it would not grant any abnormal resistance to grappaling that a normal outsider does not already possess, (Which is none).


Can you grapple a whirlwind?

Interestingly enough, to *start* a grapple you must be able to 'grab and hold' your target, which is DM discretion IMO since 'grab' and 'hold' don't mean anything specific in D&D.

Paradoxically my understanding of RAW would have it so you can in fact grapple a whirlwind, but only if you had a hold before it became one.

Also there is no such thing as RAW and your intuition was correct. So go with that instead.

[MisterKaws]

It appears like it's made of wind, but it's not Incorporeal, so no.

Probably late tho.

[HouseRules]

One Piece has a similar deal with Logia Devil Fruit and HaKi.

Since normal people cannot grab and hold users of Logia Devil Fruit, the answer is normal people cannot grab and hold.
However, HaKi could grab and hold users of Logia Devil Fruit; thus, it is possible to grab and hold onto them.

Therefore, the answer is, has grapple occurred or not.
If the person is already grapple, changing into a different form does not end the grapple.
However, if the person is not grapple yet, then the new form prevents the grapple.

It's about timing and other possible ruling.

[Mr Adventurer]

Irrelevant, since only a specific list of actions are permitted while you are grappling and changing form with Alternate Form isn't one of them?

[Vizzerdrix]

Irrelevant, since only a specific list of actions are permitted while you are grappling and changing form with Alternate Form isn't one of them?

Wait. So we can stop werewolves with hugs? :smallconfused:

[OgresAreCute]

Wait. So we can stop werewolves with hugs? :smallconfused:

Well, boys, we did it. Lycanthropy is no more.

[MisterKaws]

Irrelevant, since only a specific list of actions are permitted while you are grappling and changing form with Alternate Form isn't one of them?

RAI, they are treated as spells, requiring a Concentration check. The Customer Service Q&A also says Supernatural abilities are not allowed, which, being a Customer Service ruling, means they should definitely be allowed.

[Psyren]

Irrelevant, since only a specific list of actions are permitted while you are grappling and changing form with Alternate Form isn't one of them?

That's 3.5 - PF lets you do almost anything as long as it doesn't need 2 hands or require movement. (OP didn't specify but mentioning it in case it's relevant.)

[Lapak]

As far as RAI go, I am torn. On the one hand, no, you cannot grapple a whirlwind; that is ridiculous. On the other hand, 'hold on to someone whilst they transform into things that should be impossible to hold' is a fantasy classic (Tam Lin, Thor grappling with Old Age, et. al.) So for me it would depend on the tone of the table. In a game that was shooting for 'maximum verisimilitude,' the whirlwind would escape. At a table with an epic fantasy or Romantic fantasy tone, you grapple that tornado.

[MisterKaws]

As far as RAI go, I am torn. On the one hand, no, you cannot grapple a whirlwind; that is ridiculous. On the other hand, 'hold on to someone whilst they transform into things that should be impossible to hold' is a fantasy classic (Tam Lin, Thor grappling with Old Age, et. al.) So for me it would depend on the tone of the table. In a game that was shooting for 'maximum verisimilitude,' the whirlwind would escape. At a table with an epic fantasy or Romantic fantasy tone, you grapple that tornado.

Ever heard of Living Control Winds? It's an Ooze and a typhoon at the same time. And you can totally grapple it.

[ericgrau]

It all depends if he can be grabbed or not.

The wind form is based on wind walk which is based on gaseous form. That spell says it makes you "insubstantial", able to move through cracks, etc. So no, he can't be grabbed and therefore can't be grappled. Yes he can use this ability to escape a grapple. This also means he can't cast most spells or use weapon attacks in this form, but he can still use slam attacks and use spell like abilities in wind form per the ability description. Weapons and other attacks can hit him but he gains DR 10/magic in this form. So a more puzzling question is can a magic gauntlet or a creature with DR/magic grab him? Since his form is fluid probably not even then, or with a DM ad hoc bonus similar to grease, like a +10.

Saying if he's already in a grapple then nothing about the new form breaks him free of the grapple sounds like dysfunctional RAW at best, or simply made up at worst. I mean, does anything say that teleporting away from someone who is grappling you ends the grapple?

[HouseRules]

Does grappled means you still have a free hand to cast a spell?
If yes, then it is possible to cast the spell.
If being in such form cannot be grapple, then it should escape the grapple.
Thus, an opposite check, where the grappler tries to grab your spell casting hand while you are trying the cast the spell occurs.

[Crake]

If the rules say yes (or rather in this case, don't say no), but you look at the situation and think "that's stupid", then the answer is no, easy peasy. The rules were written with the notion that not everything had to be explicitly defined, and that DMs would use common sense to adjudicate things like this.