An odd plot hole, Star of Darkness Spoilers

[Alex Warlorn]

Spoilers ahead!

I know that this is meant to be just a deconstruction of goblins, orcs, etc, being just walking sacks of XP and GP for player characters ... And in that regard it works perfectly.

But IN story, I'm left confused as to why the gods didn't just create some non-sapient, highly aggressive nasties with an instinct for collecting gold if they needed opponents for their clerics to level-up with.

[hamishspence]

Only 1/3 of the gods are good. If the Evil gods and enough of the Neutral gods agree, they can push through decisions that the Good gods might dislike.

[martianmister]

Evil gods needs souls too.

[hroþila]

This is not a plot hole. It is something that potentially paints the gods in a bad light, but that's reinforced by much of the comic.

[factotum]

Well, there's also the critical point that the only person who says that goblinoids were created purely as XP fodder is Redcloak, and he's presumably getting that information from the Dark One--who (a) wasn't present when the world was created and (b) has a vested interest in giving Redcloak the biggest reason possible for carrying out the Plan. It's not 100% guaranteed reliable information, is what I'm saying.

[deuterio12]

Things that the "good" gods in the comic do:
-Randomly throw lighting bolts over the mortal realms while blindfolded.
-Randomly bestow colon cancer spells upon their clerics.
-Set up bets with the other gods for the lulz that force people to live strict lifes following codes all the time and seek a messy violent death if they don't want to go to Hel(l) (but no warning whatsoever that if you get violently killed by a vampire your soul still gets trapped in your corpse as new evil spirit takes over).

So "good" is relative. The evil gods are probably even nastier, but the "good" gods enjoy seeing mortals squirm and suffer too as their children get struck down by random lighting bolts.

[martianmister]

Things that the "good" gods in the comic do:
-Randomly throw lighting bolts over the mortal realms while blindfolded.
-Randomly bestow colon cancer spells upon their clerics.
-Set up bets with the other gods for the lulz that force people to live strict lifes following codes all the time and seek a messy violent death if they don't want to go to Hel(l) (but no warning whatsoever that if you get violently killed by a vampire your soul still gets trapped in your corpse as new evil spirit takes over).

So "good" is relative. The evil gods are probably even nastier, but the "good" gods enjoy seeing mortals squirm and suffer too as their children get struck down by random lighting bolts.

None of those are true.

[Angrith]

None of those are true.

Eh, the first one is. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html

The rest is... described rather misleadingly. The colon tumor is technically what Durkon asked for, so I wouldn't say it was random. As for the bet, it's been argued to death in other threads; I won't touch it.

[martianmister]

Those lightning bolts cause random storms, he doesn't throw those to the ground, especially not to the children as he claimed.

[Fyraltari]

Almost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html) gave a colon cancer.
And Loki isn’t a good god as far as we know.

[zimmerwald1915]

Those lightning bolts cause random storms, he doesn't throw those to the ground, especially not to the children as he claimed.
. . . Lightning from storms hits the ground.

[deuterio12]

Those lightning bolts cause random storms, he doesn't throw those to the ground, especially not to the children as he claimed.

Ah, my bad then.

"Good" Thor's the god of "lol look at the puny mortals dying from random storms I create at random while blind and drunk".

So the child body count will be much higher as a full random storm can be a lot deadlier than just a random lighting bolt.

A single storm includes lots of lighting bolts if nothing else.

And any dwarves killed by Thor's random storms probably going straight to Hel(l) since I doubt that "death by random storm" counts as honorable.


And Loki isn’t a good god as far as we know.

Loki's the one that giving a third alternative to "life shackled by mountains of rules" and "literal Hel(l)". Allowing actual free will is pretty goodish last time I checked.

[zimmerwald1915]

And any dwarves killed by Thor's random storms probably going straight to Hel(l) since I doubt that "death by random storm" counts as honorable.
I'm pretty sure none of the dwarves go straight to Hell without the benefit of a hearing. And given what we've seen of those, it seems all they need is a colorable argument that they shouldn't go to her to avoid it. "I died in personal combat with a god" should do.


Loki's the one that giving a third alternative to "life shackled by mountains of rules" and "literal Hel(l)". Allowing actual free will is pretty goodish last time I checked.
We have nothing for that but Hilgya's word, and Hilgya's word is not trustworthy. In any event, "your third option is to serve ME!" is hardly Good.

[Morty]

Because then we wouldn't have a critical satire on the "evil races" of fantasy gaming. Or the gods decided it's easier if those convenient bags of XP can sustain a civilization. But mostly the first thing, because there's no real need to overthink it.

[The Aboleth]

"Good" Thor's the god of "lol look at the puny mortals dying from random storms I create at random while blind and drunk".

Thor has never been shown to take delight in the deaths of mortals (EDIT: Except for the followers of Loki, perhaps, but even then I wouldn't categorize it as "delight" over their deaths). Your statement here is simply not true.

Thor has been shown as being irresponsible and/or reckless, but that's not the same as going, "LOL, people are dying! Isn't that hilarious?!"


So the child body count will be much higher as a full random storm can be a lot deadlier than just a random lighting bolt.

Again, intent matters. That storms can cause random deaths is not necessarily Thor's fault, unless you consider every death ever the fault of the Gods because they made the world and sometimes things in the world kill people. That's not a position I agree with, personally.


A single storm includes lots of lighting bolts if nothing else.

And any dwarves killed by Thor's random storms probably going straight to Hel(l) since I doubt that "death by random storm" counts as honorable.

That is a bad side effect of the bet...which is why Thor has gone to great lengths to teach Dwarven society how to act as honorably as possible all the time so that such occurrences of dishonorable death are mitigated to their lowest possible level. Thor was dealt a bad hand (remember, he was drunk when Loki proposed the Bet, and so wasn't in a right state of mind when he agreed to it*) and has presumably done the best he can to make it work out in the Dwarves' favor.

*I suppose you could blame him for being drunk in the first place, but to me that comes off as victim-blaming. Loki was sober and manipulated the situation--most, if not all, of the blame falls on him IMO.



Loki's the one that giving a third alternative to "life shackled by mountains of rules" and "literal Hel(l)". Allowing actual free will is pretty goodish last time I checked.

The only evidence we have of this is Hilgya's words; we don't actually know if she's actually correct in this assessment. EDIT: Partially ninja'd, though I don't think Hilgya is necessarily lying here--just potentially incorrect.

[Peelee]

The only evidence we have of this is Hilgya's words; we don't actually know if she's actually correct in this assessment. EDIT: Partially ninja'd, though I don't think Hilgya is necessarily lying here--just potentially incorrect.

You could wholly agree; Zim said Hilgya's word isn't trustworthy, not that she lied. If I got near-blackout drunk last night and then tried to tell you everything that happened, you would consider my account untrustworthy, despite that I believed I was recounting everything truthfully.

[deuterio12]

I'm pretty sure none of the dwarves go straight to Hell without the benefit of a hearing. And given what we've seen of those, it seems all they need is a colorable argument that they shouldn't go to her to avoid it. "I died in personal combat with a god" should do.

In that case the gods blowing up the world would also count as honorable death.

But it specifically doesn't. So nope, dying as collateral damage from a god's actions is specifically not honorable.

It's actually a central plot point right now.



We have nothing for that but Hilgya's word, and Hilgya's word is not trustworthy. In any event, "your third option is to serve ME!" is hardly Good.

It is a significant improvement when you're no longer being forced to marry somebody you don't even know under threat of crossbow by the followers of "good" Thor.


Thor has never been shown to take delight in the deaths of mortals (EDIT: Except for the followers of Loki, perhaps, but even then I wouldn't categorize it as "delight" over their deaths). Your statement here is simply not true.

THOR IS LITERALLY SQUEALING IN DELIGHT WHILE RAINING DOWN RANDOM STORMS UPON THE MORTALS!

Not bothering to read the rest of your post until you at least explain how "squealing in delight" does not actually mean delight, because if you're just going to ignore the comic to that point, there's nothing I can do to change your mind about "good" Thor "marriage with unknown people at crossbow point are a-ok".

[The Aboleth]

You could wholly agree; Zim said Hilgya's word isn't trustworthy, not that she lied. If I got near-blackout drunk last night and then tried to tell you everything that happened, you would consider my account untrustworthy, despite that I believed I was recounting everything truthfully.

Fair point. I just wanted to be clear that I was drawing a line between "being intentionally untruthful" and "trying to be truthful but might might not actually be so due to not knowing all the facts yet." Perhaps a minor distinction, admittedly, but it was important to me.

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE-POST:



THOR IS LITERALLY SQUEALING IN DELIGHT WHILE RAINING DOWN RANDOM STORMS UPON THE MORTALS!

Not bothering to read the rest of your post until you at least explain how "squealing in delight" does not actually mean delight, because if you're just going to ignore the comic to that point, there's nothing I can do to change your mind about "good" Thor "marriage with unknown people at crossbow point are a-ok".

First of all, you'll get a lot more responses to your posts if you tone down the aggression. Just something to consider.

Second, Thor is not "squealing in delight" at killing mortals; he is squealing in delight at throwing lightning bolts. If I'm having fun playing darts but one of my darts accidentally hits someone in the eye and kills them, I'm not going to enjoy the fact my dart killed them--I'd be mortified, as I believe Thor would be.

Now, you have a point that Thor--being a God whose actions with literal lightning bolts COULD cause unnecessary deaths--should exercise greater care and caution...which is why I said he has been reckless and irresponsible. Those aren't the same things as being malicious, though.

[zimmerwald1915]

In that case the gods blowing up the world would also count as honorable death.

But it specifically doesn't. So nope, dying as collateral damage from a god's actions is specifically not honorable.
There is a distinction between dying from "a god's" actions and "the gods'" actions, but you've clearly made up your mind and I don't actually care that much.


It is a significant improvement when you're no longer being forced to marry somebody you don't even know under threat of crossbow by the followers of "good" Thor.
Whataboutism, and with a crossbow, no less! Really shooting for the stars with this troll, aintcha?

And I'm curious, where was it established that the Firehelms ever followed Thor? Not that it would matter, but it's a claim, there must be some evidence behind it.

[hamishspence]

It is a significant improvement when you're no longer being forced to marry somebody you don't even know under threat of crossbow by the followers of "good" Thor.


Where does the comic say Hilgya's family were Thor-worshippers? He's not the only god the dwarves worship - just the most popular one.

[deuterio12]

And I'm curious, where was it established that the Firehelms ever followed Thor? Not that it would matter, but it's a claim, there must be some evidence behind it.

I could do it, but if it's gonna get ignored like the comic of "good" blind, drunk Thor literally laughing his ass off as he randomly smites mortals with random storms, then it's just not worth the effort.

[The Aboleth]

I could do it, but if it's gonna get ignored like the comic of "good" blind, drunk Thor literally laughing his ass off as he randomly smites mortals with random storms, then it's just not worth the effort. The comic is not evidence enough, nothing's good enough evidence for you.

Please see my edit above. Also, Thor is not "randomly smiting mortals." While it is possible his lightning bolts are hurting people, it is also possible they are just harmlessly striking uninhabited areas of the world. You're assuming the worst-case scenario to bolster your argument.

[hroþila]

I could do it, but if it's gonna get ignored like the comic of "good" blind, drunk Thor literally laughing his ass off as he randomly smites mortals with random storms, then it's just not worth the effort.
Great dodge, massive cop-out 👍

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Added to the fact that only the lore of the Dark One states that goblinoids were created with the purpose of being xp fodder is the fact that Redcloak and TDO still think that this is only the second world. Add to THAT the fact the world is a "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody" meaning there were goblins here from the start, as part of the world, as were all other xp fodders

[deuterio12]

Please see my edit above. Also, Thor is not "randomly smiting mortals." While it is possible his lightning bolts are hurting people, it is also possible they are just harmlessly striking uninhabited areas of the world. You're assuming the worst-case scenario to bolster your argument.

The best-case scenario is that Thor's drunk blind storms never hurt a single person.

But that's simply a statistical impossibility. Over thousands of years, mortals will end up smitten by Thor's delight.

So yes, Thor's blind, drunk storms will caused pain, suffering, loss and death of people with 99.99999999999999(9)% certainity. The exact percentage is unknown, but it's sure damn higher than zero.

Surely people in the past already screamed to the heavens asking "what did I do to deserve being hit by that random storm that left me a cripple, destroyed my home and beloved family oh mighty Thor?"

And the terrible truth is "Thor was blind and drunk and having a great time, and he's gonna do it again."

Thor would know that his storms are hurting people, storms are his job, people would pray to him about them. But he still keeps doing it. Drunk and blind. And squealing in delight.



Thor has been shown as being irresponsible and/or reckless, but that's not the same as going, "LOL, people are dying! Isn't that hilarious?!"

Then what's he laughing at "LOL that forest is burning! Isn't that hilarious?!" "Lol that boat is sinking! Isn't that hilarious?!" "Lol river overflowing and sweeping away everything in land! Isn't that hilarious?!" What's so exactly so funny about storms that isn't dangerous/lethal?



Again, intent matters. That storms can cause random deaths is not necessarily Thor's fault, unless you consider every death ever the fault of the Gods because they made the world and sometimes things in the world kill people. That's not a position I agree with, personally.

Colon cancer. Why did the gods create that, and why is "good" god Thor willing to give it to his clerics? What kind of non-evil use is even there for colon cancer? How can a "good" god hear a request for that and go "yep, I'm pretty sure they'll give a righteous use to that".



That is a bad side effect of the bet...which is why Thor has gone to great lengths to teach Dwarven society how to act as honorably as possible all the time so that such occurrences of dishonorable death are mitigated to their lowest possible level. Thor was dealt a bad hand (remember, he was drunk when Loki proposed the Bet, and so wasn't in a right state of mind when he agreed to it*) and has presumably done the best he can to make it work out in the Dwarves' favor.

*I suppose you could blame him for being drunk in the first place, but to me that comes off as victim-blaming. Loki was sober and manipulated the situation--most, if not all, of the blame falls on him IMO.

Being a chronic drunk is not a valid excuse. Thor should've learned to sober up by now.

Instead he keeps getting drunk then adds a blindfold before starting to throw random storms around.



The only evidence we have of this is Hilgya's words; we don't actually know if she's actually correct in this assessment.

Hilgya is correct in that Loki isn't telling her to marry a complete stranger.

And remember, Durkon the cleric of Thor specifically told Hilgya that she should've just accepted to be married to a complete stranger at crossbow point and smoother their own feelings in the name of "honor".

So hurrah for Thor teaching the dwarfs how to be an "honorable" society by forcing daughters to marry at crossbow point with people they don't know!

[hamishspence]

Then what's he laughing at "LOL that forest is burning! Isn't that hilarious?!" "Lol that boat is sinking! Isn't that hilarious?!" "Lol river overflowing and sweeping away everything in land! Isn't that hilarious?!" What's so exactly so funny about storms that isn't dangerous/lethal?

He's yelling "Whee"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html

he's not actually laughing. Especially not laughing at misery.

[The Aboleth]

You know, I was going to respond to each of your points, but this:



Hilgya is correct in that Loki isn't telling her to marry a complete stranger.

And remember, Durkon the cleric of Thor specifically told Hilgya that she should've just accepted to be married to a complete stranger at crossbow point and smoother their own feelings in the name of "honor".

So hurrah for Thor teaching the dwarfs how to be an "honorable" society by forcing daughters to marry at crossbow point with people they don't know!


makes me feel like you have no interest in good-faith debate and will instead move the goalposts rather than consider the validity of other people's points. So, I'm done with this discussion.

[martianmister]

. . . Lightning from storms hits the ground.
Ah, my bad then.

"Good" Thor's the god of "lol look at the puny mortals dying from random storms I create at random while blind and drunk".

So the child body count will be much higher as a full random storm can be a lot deadlier than just a random lighting bolt.

A single storm includes lots of lighting bolts if nothing else.

And any dwarves killed by Thor's random storms probably going straight to Hel(l) since I doubt that "death by random storm" counts as honorable.

Storms and lightnings are part of the nature.

[CriticalFailure]

Spoilers ahead!

I know that this is meant to be just a deconstruction of goblins, orcs, etc, being just walking sacks of XP and GP for player characters ... And in that regard it works perfectly.

But IN story, I'm left confused as to why the gods didn't just create some non-sapient, highly aggressive nasties with an instinct for collecting gold if they needed opponents for their clerics to level-up with.





I mean, you answered your own question. The gods in OOTS created humanoid sacks of XP because GMs and campaign writers frequently create campaigns/settings in which goblins etc are humanoid sacks of XP and OOTS is in part about the game itself. Why don't GMs and campaign writers make non-sapient nasties? Well, that's complicated, and I'm by no means an expert on the topic but if you ask me a lot of it probably has to do with the history of how fantasy gaming emerged from fantasy literature emerged from older folk tales and literature. I might be wrong but it seems some creatures such as goblins end up getting written up as "normal" type creatures that have a culture and a similar outlook to humans while retaining traits originating from their role as mischievous or evil spirits/fairies/supernatural beings.

[martianmister]

GMs aren't creating actual sentient/sapient creatures though, they create fiction.

[Morty]

Calling it a plot hole doesn't really work, no matter which way you slice it. First off, we don't know what actually happened yet. We only have the Dark One's word for it. Second off, even if the gods did indeed create goblins and others as XP fodder, it's still not a plot hole. Just the gods doing something less sensible and logical than they could or should have done.

[zimmerwald1915]

Storms and lightnings are part of the nature.
Nature in this world is the product of artifice, and can work any way the creators want.

[CriticalFailure]

GMs aren't creating actual sentient/sapient creatures though, they create fiction.

Yeah but it's a self aware parody of fantasy stories. GMs create worlds and stories using certain conventions that are "behind the scenes," OOTS is a world and story based on taking those behind the scenes conventions and making them something all the characters are aware of.

[martianmister]

Nature in this world is the product of artifice, and can work any way the creators want.

Unless you imply that every part of OotS world's nature is working according to the gods' will, that doesn't work. They need to be omnipresent and omniscient for this.

[zimmerwald1915]

Unless you imply that every part of OotS world's nature is working according to the gods' will, that doesn't work.
Why not? They might be (probably are) divine clockmakers, with exceptional interventions.

[Fyraltari]

Why not? They might be (probably are) divine clockmakers, with exceptional interventions.

Yeah, I mean Njord designs coastlines. Sure, it’s a Slartibartfast reference, but still.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Why not? They might be (probably are) divine clockmakers, with exceptional interventions.

Because if that was the case the world wouldn't be falling apart as the Snarl strains at the bonds of its prison. The prion would be functioning exactly the way they intended in the first place. Also, there'd be no surprises, since everything would be working exactly the way they intended. The Dark One's existence refutes that idea.

[Fyraltari]

Because if that was the case the world wouldn't be falling apart as the Snarl strains at the bonds of its prison. The prion would be functioning exactly the way they intended in the first place. Also, there'd be no surprises, since everything would be working exactly the way they intended. The Dark One's existence refutes that idea.

I’ve done enough coding to know that everything working as I made it to does not equal everything working as I intend it to.

Storms and every other parts of nature work the way the gods designed them to but they are not perfect planner so they’ve can be surprised by results they didn’t intend to happen.

[Peelee]

I’ve done enough coding to know that everything working as I made it to does not equal everything working as I intend it to.

The best thing about computers is they do exactly what you tell them to.

The worst thing about computers is they do exactly what you tell them to.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not according to the divine clockmaker thesis. There everything functions exactly like clockwork, every gear spinning in its predetermined path and with absolutely nothing happening other than what the clockmaker intended.

As you can guess no doubt, it's not a theory that allows at all for freewill. You are a machine doing exactly what you were built for, and every 'choice' you face was decided long ago and has as much chance of going a different way as the dancing figures on a cuckoo clock suddenly starting a martial arts club.

[crayzz]

Because if that was the case the world wouldn't be falling apart as the Snarl strains at the bonds of its prison. The prion would be functioning exactly the way they intended in the first place. Also, there'd be no surprises, since everything would be working exactly the way they intended. The Dark One's existence refutes that idea.

Even the best made clock won't tick forever. In the real world, entropy eventually brings the clock to a halt. In the OotS world, the divine being of made of malice and destruction eventually gets loose, partially since it's fundamentally more "real" than the prison that's trapped it.

And I'm gonna have to echo this sentiment: if you've done any meaningful amount of programming, surprises happen all the time even if you wrote the entire code from start to finish. Sometimes you didn't quite plan ahead far enough, sometimes you didn't quite account for the interaction between 2 elements, sometime some element of the underlying hardware throws everything to hell, etc etc. I can't imagine how many surprises you'd run into if you wrote a program by committee with some 30 other people, with 3/4s of whom you have a tense relationship at best.

EDIT


Not according to the divine clockmaker thesis. There everything functions exactly like clockwork, every gear spinning in its predetermined path and with absolutely nothing happening other than what the clockmaker intended.

You're referencing a specific abrahamic religious idea of what a divine clockmaker is, usually called the Divine Watchmaker. I'm willing to bet that Zimm was speaking in more generic terms.

We're also edging into "real world religion" territory, so I have no intention of taking that argument further.

[mjasghar]

If you want to get to the nitty gritty - this is new d&d where XP is granted due to CR not how much treasure the creature has
So to get high level clerics etc you need high level XP targets
Remember Belkar got no XP for killing dozens of hobgoblins in the battle

[Fyraltari]

Not according to the divine clockmaker thesis. There everything functions exactly like clockwork, every gear spinning in its predetermined path and with absolutely nothing happening other than what the clockmaker intended.

As you can guess no doubt, it's not a theory that allows at all for freewill. You are a machine doing exactly what you were built for, and every 'choice' you face was decided long ago and has as much chance of going a different way as the dancing figures on a cuckoo clock suddenly starting a martial arts club.

You are assuming the clockmaker never makes mistakes or has any oversight in their design. The OOTS gods do not have this level of foresight as has been repeatedly demonstrated.

[Kish]

I think the idea that the OotS world has things put in that the gods didn't put there is weird and out of left field.

(The Snarl, note, is very specifically a thing that the gods did put there.)

[woweedd]

In answer to the thread's question, because a non-sapient opponent can't form a civilization for their followers to war against. It's no fun if you're essentially fighting a bunch of humanoid viruses, no different then a natural disaster. Plus, it's plausibel the Good gods only agreed to go along with this plan on the condition that the cannon fodder were Evil, so as to offer a moral justification for fighting them. In answer to the Thor question...I can see an argument that Thor, though he's admittedly nice on a personal level, doesn't count as Good, as, while he does seem remarkably kind, he's still fueled by, more-or-less. assimilating the souls of mortals. Granted, he also brought those mortals into existence, and, to quote Rich's argument, "I assume anyone who has a problem with the Gods doing this is planning a switch to vegetarianism". Still, he does seem quite callous on occasion, and often feels like he "cares" about mortals in the same way a hard-nosed ecologist "cares" about a species of ant in the Amazon. Maybe in the abstract, yeah. Point is, I can see an argument that Thor isn't a Good guy...What I CAN'T is an argument for Thor being a bad guy...That is not followed by the conclusion "ALL the Gods are bad guys". His callousness and feeding on mortal souls are traits all the Gods share. Heck, judging by the Godsmoot, i'd argue he's one of only about THREE Northern Gods that presented an actual, capital-G Good reason for his vote.

[Keltest]

You are assuming the clockmaker never makes mistakes or has any oversight in their design. The OOTS gods do not have this level of foresight as has been repeatedly demonstrated.

I believe what theyre saying is that lack of foresight and planning means that this specifically isn't a Divine Clockmaker world.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Pretty much. The defining terms for a DC are 'omniscient' (knows everything, past-present-future), 'omnipotent' (can do anything without risk of failure) and consequently 'absolute predestination' (because there isn't anything anyone other than the DC can do, given the previous). There's a lot of reasons why RPGs don't use pantheons with DCs, but the fact that they aren't much fun comes near the top of the list.

[deuterio12]

I’ve done enough coding to know that everything working as I made it to does not equal everything working as I intend it to.

Storms and every other parts of nature work the way the gods designed them to but they are not perfect planner so they’ve can be surprised by results they didn’t intend to happen.

And when your code is producing bad results and starts burning, bleeding and screaming for mercy, do you just grab a beer and squeal in delight until the computer itself breaks down so badly you'll need to build a new one from scratch?

Or do you stop the program right away, go look for problems in the code and patch them?

And when coding do you do it when drunk out of your mind or try stay sober?

[Fyraltari]

And when your code is producing bad results and starts burning, bleeding and screaming for mercy, do you just grab a beer and squeal in delight until the computer itself breaks down so badly you'll need to build a new one from scratch?

Or do you stop the program right away, go look for problems in the code and patch them?

And when coding do you do it when drunk out of your mind or try stay sober?

I'm sorry, what?

[zimmerwald1915]

And when your code is producing bad results and starts burning, bleeding and screaming for mercy, do you just grab a beer and squeal in delight until the computer itself breaks down so badly you'll need to build a new one from scratch?

Or do you stop the program right away, go look for problems in the code and patch them?

And when coding do you do it when drunk out of your mind or try stay sober?
Depends, really. (https://xkcd.com/323/)

[The Aboleth]

And when your code is producing bad results and starts burning, bleeding and screaming for mercy, do you just grab a beer and squeal in delight until the computer itself breaks down so badly you'll need to build a new one from scratch?

Or do you stop the program right away, go look for problems in the code and patch them?

And when coding do you do it when drunk out of your mind or try stay sober?

For the umpteenth time, Thor is not "squealing in delight" at the deaths of mortals.

In fact, the very comic--#201--that you cite doesn't show anyone dying at all! The whole joke there is that Durkon believes the storm is deliberately being sent by Thor as an omen/sign to Durkon, but in reality it's just a random occurrence caused by Thor's partying. Do we see anyone die in that storm as a result of lightning (or anything)? No, we don't, so even your assertion that random lightning storms can cause unnecessary deaths is disputed by the very comic you chose to cite.

Of course, this is the part where you rattle on about statistics and how it's impossible a random storm wouldn't eventually kill at least 1 person...to which I would respond that you're pulling assumptions out of thin air, and until we see evidence in-comic then I'm going to go with my head-canon that Thor's storms are mostly harmless unless he deliberately chooses to direct them towards people--like he did against the Mechane when Durkon was still a vampire.

Insert obligatory quote from The Giant here about making assumptions that fit the comic, yadda yadda yadda.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

in reality it's just a random occurrence caused by Thor's partying

Indeed. Thor is, almost certainly, Chaotic. He is also in charge of storms. Storms are random and chaotic. How Thor chooses to generate randomness is up to him. I suppose he could do so via rolling dice, but it seems he'd rather get drunk and blindfolded. But whatever method he uses, unpredictability is a necessary part of generating storms.

And because of that, storms have nothing to do with Good or Evil, and everything to do with Chaos versus Lawfulness. Yes, Chaos can result in Good people dying (but then, so can Lawfulness, for that matter). That Thor is a Chaotic deity that exercises his portfolio in Chaotic ways tells us absolutely nothing about whether he is Good or Evil (unless, of course, one has decided in advance what the conclusions must be and are attempting to twist, distort and outright invent the evidence to fit the conclusion).

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

I could do it, but if it's gonna get ignored like the comic of "good" blind, drunk Thor literally laughing his ass off as he randomly smites mortals with random storms, then it's just not worth the effort.

Troll people by being aggressive and snide, then claim you don't have to back up your points because no one will read them anyway because you're so aggressive and snide. I love it.


The best thing about computers is they do exactly what you tell them to.

The worst thing about computers is they do exactly what you tell them to.

I'm old enough to remember when GIGO was still a common acronym among a certain set.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm old enough to remember when GIGO was still a common acronym among a certain set.
What's even odder is that the full, non-acronymized phrase is still in very common currency.

[Forum Explorer]

And when your code is producing bad results and starts burning, bleeding and screaming for mercy, do you just grab a beer and squeal in delight until the computer itself breaks down so badly you'll need to build a new one from scratch?

Or do you stop the program right away, go look for problems in the code and patch them?

And when coding do you do it when drunk out of your mind or try stay sober?

I can see someone isn't a programmer! Because back when I was trying to be a programmer here were some common occurrences:

1. Programmer when drunk, because you have a social life, but you also need to finish the project. Or just for the fun of it. (My university literally had a weekly 'lets get drunk and try and figure out coding problems' day.)

2. Pulling all-nighters and writing some pretty weird code as you are too sleep deprived to make sense.

3. Saying **** it, close enough, when a program works nearly perfectly, but has a small problem that you can't fix without either starting from scratch or breaking everything.

4. And threatening to murder your computer and it's entire extended family because it won't bloody work right!


Anyways, you don't have any actual points worth addressing about the subject at hand. I just wanted to enlighten you about what programming can be like. At least at a University level.

[Throknor]

I'm old enough to remember when GIGO was still a common acronym among a certain set.

On two occasions I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
- Charles Babbage

[Rogar Demonblud]

Should I post the AbEnd Litany? I'm beginning to think I should.

[factotum]

No, we don't, so even your assertion that random lightning storms can cause unnecessary deaths is disputed by the very comic you chose to cite.

Not to play devil's advocate here, because I disagree fundamentally with deuterio12's position, but random storms can totally cause random deaths--there was a woman killed by being struck by lightning while walking in the Highlands last Saturday. It's a massively rare occurrence, certainly, but not a nonexistent one.

[Fyraltari]

Also stroms are way less dangerous when Control Weather is on the standard Clerical Spell List.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also stroms are way less dangerous when Control Weather is on the standard Clerical Spell List.
It is a 6th-level spell.

[Rogar Demonblud]

More importantly, these random storms spend much of their time randomly smiting wicked, wicked trees.:smallwink:

[Fyraltari]

It is a 6th-level spell.

Still easier to deal with than real-life storms.

[zimmerwald1915]

Still easier to deal with than real-life storms.
If you happen to be, or be around, the hundred or so people in the world who can cast 6th-level Cleric spells.

[Fyraltari]

If you happen to be, or be around, the hundred or so people in the world who can cast 6th-level Cleric spells.
No, in that case you don't have to deal with it at all.

[The Aboleth]

Not to play devil's advocate here, because I disagree fundamentally with deuterio12's position, but random storms can totally cause random deaths--there was a woman killed by being struck by lightning while walking in the Highlands last Saturday. It's a massively rare occurrence, certainly, but not a nonexistent one.

Oh, I agree, and am not actually disputing that storms can potentially kill people. My point is that if you're going to cite in-comic evidence of storms randomly killing people, Comic #201 is actually the worst one to use because the random storm we're shown turns out to be harmless.

[Peelee]

If you happen to be, or be around, the hundred or so people in the world who can cast 6th-level Cleric spells.

Which is infinitely more people than can quell storms in real life.

Or significantly fewer, if you listen to certain people.:smallwink: Also the moon is a hologram.

[Aveline]

Oh, I agree, and am not actually disputing that storms can potentially kill people. My point is that if you're going to cite in-comic evidence of storms randomly killing people, Comic #201 is actually the worst one to use because the random storm we're shown turns out to be harmless.

Even better: the storm saved Miko, who led the Order to Shojo, who helped them get to Girard's Gate and hinder Team Evil's plans then get sidetracked into a quest about literally saving every single person alive.

[zimmerwald1915]

Which is infinitely more people than can quell storms in real life.

Or significantly fewer, if you listen to certain people.:smallwink: Also the moon is a hologram.
Isn't everything in the universe a hologram on a higher-dimensional brane?

[Peelee]

Isn't everything in the universe a hologram on a higher-dimensional brane?

That's what the lizard people want you to think!

[Wizard_Lizard]

That's what the lizard people want you to think!

oh no, they're onto me!