Killing Xanathar

[kbob]

So this one is a little different for me. We have a party of 4-6 (depending on schedules) currently ranging level 5-6. I believe most of us will be leveling soon, so 6-7. So our DM decided to task us with killing Xanathar. I wont get into how and why for many reasons.
In char, we don’t know anything about Xanathar except that he is somewhere in Waterdeep and that he is a beholder. So besides the obvious gather info/investigate more info on him/his network and gaining more levels, what would yall suggest we do? In my mind, its well-nigh impossible. We currently have a paladin (myself), warlock, Sorcerer, rogue, cleric, and artificer.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

So this one is a little different for me. We have a party of 4-6 (depending on schedules) currently ranging level 5-6. I believe most of us will be leveling soon, so 6-7. So our DM decided to task us with killing Xanathar. I wont get into how and why for many reasons.
In char, we don’t know anything about Xanathar except that he is somewhere in Waterdeep and that he is a beholder. So besides the obvious gather info/investigate more info on him/his network and gaining more levels, what would yall suggest we do? In my mind, its well-nigh impossible. We currently have a paladin (myself), warlock, Sorcerer, rogue, cleric, and artificer.

Out of character, keep killing off his minions or other bad guys and keep the levelz coming while investigating.

In character, find him, isolate him, bring your DM's favorite NPC's as allies and you'll be amazed.

[Great Dragon]

@kbob:
As I'm sure you already know:
Killing Xanathar is meant to be a great challenge.

Like all Beholders, Xanathar is personally powerful, very smart, and paranoid.
(And tactics like "dropping the ceiling" on something that can tunnel with unlimited Disintegration isn't very effective.)

Unlike other Beholders, Xanathar has an organization under his command.

The organization is what the PCs really need to neutralize, since the fewer "allies" Xanathar has access to during the main fight, the better for PCs.

But, simply killing members isn't an effective way to neutralize the organization; since there's a huge city with lots of "desperate" people to recruit from.
Plus, even more unsavory types in Undermountain.

However, taking out key "members" is effective.

PCs can figure out most of these facts with RP and Investigation.

Now, since I don't want to give too many Spoilers, I'm not going to go into details on ways I've thought of - to neutralize the organization.

[Sigreid]

Psychological warfare man. Work to get into his organization. Get as close and trusted as you can. Then "find" evidence that there's another beholder gunning for his position and power. Keep working on his paranoia until his insanity creates a rival that takes him out.

[Great Dragon]

@Sigreid

I'd go for getting to know as many of the other Factions in Waterdeep as possible, to get help in "neutralizing" Xanathar's Guild.

Actually: going after Silgar (goldfish) is a "safer" bet. Look for "Tale of Two Fishes" on (I think?) DMs Guild.

What your suggesting is rather dangerous* and would require the PCs finding out about the Anti-Dream Item in Xanathar's Lair. (That item is supposed to be a Super Secret, and not something that any amount of Investigation will reveal.
Then getting in and either stealing, or destroying, it: And then escaping…..)

* First, killing the Mind Flayer, is a must!

Also:
Because all the members are double-faced backstabbing jerks. And the only reason there isn't more deadly infighting, is that Xanathar (with help from the Mind Flayer, and some other Key People) actually keeps track of most of it, and when your a CR 1/2 to CR 3 Mook, what the CR 13 "Boss" says, goes.
(Even if it is a weird Monster, that doesn't always make sense! Sometimes the writers do come up with Funny Things.)

Plus:
Gaining Xanathar's trust would take years;
and actually RP-ing it would most likely be tedious.

Not impossible, mind.

[Sigreid]

@Sigreid

I'd go for getting to know as many of the other Factions in Waterdeep as possible, to get help in "neutralizing" Xanathar's Guild.

Actually: going after Silgar (goldfish) is a "safer" bet. Look for "Tale of Two Fishes" on (I think?) DMs Guild.

What your suggesting is rather dangerous* and would require the PCs finding out about the Anti-Dream Item in Xanathar's Lair. (That item is supposed to be a Super Secret, and not something that any amount of Investigation will reveal.
Then getting in and either stealing, or destroying, it: And then escaping…..)

* First, killing the Mind Flayer, is a must!

Also:
Because all the members are double-faced backstabbing jerks. And the only reason there isn't more deadly infighting, is that Xanathar (with help from the Mind Flayer, and some other Key People) actually keeps track of most of it, and when your a CR 1/2 to CR 3 Mook, what the CR 13 "Boss" says, goes.
(Even if it is a weird Monster, that doesn't always make sense! Sometimes the writers do come up with Funny Things.)

Plus:
Gaining Xanathar's trust would take years;
and actually RP-ing it would most likely be tedious.

Not impossible, mind.

I knew nothing about the spoiler and was just going on the beholder lore from Volo's.

[Great Dragon]

I knew nothing about the spoiler and was just going on the beholder lore from Volo's.

Understandable.
The information given, was meant to help everyone really get an idea on why Xanathar isn't just "another monster" to take down.

There is more information about Xanathar, but finding it can be tricky and requires getting both Dragon Heist and Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and then compairing notes.

[Sigreid]

Understandable.
The information given, was meant to help everyone really get an idea on why Xanathar isn't just "another monster" to take down.

There is more information about Xanathar, but finding it can be tricky and requires getting both Dragon Heist and Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and then compairing notes.

Sadly DH didn't interest me even a little bit.

[Bjarkmundur]

Ally with the open Lord of Waterdeep first, Xanathar is scared shirtless of her.

[Great Dragon]

Sadly DH didn't interest me even a little bit.
Sent a PM.


Ally with the open Lord of Waterdeep first, Xanathar is scared shirtless of her.

LoL!!!!

[MaxWilson]

So this one is a little different for me. We have a party of 4-6 (depending on schedules) currently ranging level 5-6. I believe most of us will be leveling soon, so 6-7. So our DM decided to task us with killing Xanathar. I wont get into how and why for many reasons.
In char, we don’t know anything about Xanathar except that he is somewhere in Waterdeep and that he is a beholder. So besides the obvious gather info/investigate more info on him/his network and gaining more levels, what would yall suggest we do? In my mind, its well-nigh impossible. We currently have a paladin (myself), warlock, Sorcerer, rogue, cleric, and artificer.

Beholder eye rays work only on creatures they can see. Greater Invisibility, Darkness, or similar renders them essentially helpless. So that reduces your problem to "how do I catch Xanathar alone at a time when I've got Darkness or similar up?" Illusions and disguises may help. But the actual killing part should be straightforward, because 5E beholders are a gimmick monster.

Unless your DM has changed the rules for beholder eye rays, of course. You won't know for sure until you try it, unless you figure out a way to test it in advance, e.g. by consulting a sage or taunting Xanathar with an invisible chainlock familiar to see if he can disintegrate it or something like that.

If you can predict where he'll be at some point, Glyph of Warding (Greater Invisibility) on the rogue may be helpful. He might almost be able to kill Xanathar on his own before the spell runs out. Add in an invisible warlock and artificer and it's a sure thing. (Yes, Antimagic Eye is an inconvenience, but no more than that. It only covers 90 degrees.)

[JakOfAllTirades]

Beholder eye rays work only on creatures they can see. Greater Invisibility, Darkness, or similar renders them essentially helpless. So that reduces your problem to "how do I catch Xanathar alone at a time when I've got Darkness or similar up?" Illusions and disguises may help. But the actual killing part should be straightforward, because 5E beholders are a gimmick monster.

Unless your DM has changed the rules for beholder eye rays, of course. You won't know for sure until you try it, unless you figure out a way to test it in advance, e.g. by consulting a sage or taunting Xanathar with an invisible chainlock familiar to see if he can disintegrate it or something like that.

If you can predict where he'll be at some point, Glyph of Warding (Greater Invisibility) on the rogue may be helpful. He might almost be able to kill Xanathar on his own before the spell runs out. Add in an invisible warlock and artificer and it's a sure thing. (Yes, Antimagic Eye is an inconvenience, but no more than that. It only covers 90 degrees.)

While invisibility and Darkness can be negated by the Beholder's anti-magic ability, any spell which inflicts the Blind condition doesn't have this drawback. The Beholder can't turn its anti-magic eye on itself to end an ongoing condition. I'd recommend the Blindness/Deafness spell, or a Gem of Brightness if you can find one.

[Great Dragon]

@Sigreid: thanks for the reply.

@MaxWilson:
Yes, blocking/negating line of sight is a good tactic.

But, with +12 Perception (22 Passive), even Invisibility might not protect you.

@JakOfAllTirades: a very nice tactic.
Just remember to use that only when the Beholder turns the A-M-ray "off".

Edit:
I'm loving this!!

@MaxWilson:
(1) especially Rogues that don't need adjacent allies for Sneak Attack:
Swashbucklers, Inquisitive, and high level Arcane Tricksters. (When able to use magic)

Masterminds love having a heavy hitter adjacent, since not only can they SA, they love giving their friend Advantage to Hit!

(2) Xanathar is a little harder to "catch alone" than the Average Beholder. Only his Treasure Lair is really kept "free of people" (because Xanathar doesn't trust anyone in it) but even here, there are always minions nearby to call to his aid.

Getting rid of all the minions shouldn't be easy.



Just remember that, unlike some Beholders, Xanathar is not at all hesitant about running away (or hiding) from a bad situation.

Of course, with a "fly speed" of 20 feet, means that it's not too difficult to keep up with Xanathar.

When too many "people are looking for it"; or losing any of it's Key "People", Xanathar is smart enough to figure out that it's time to be elsewhere.

Also, remember that Xanathar knows what's around it's Lairs and "direction" isn't a problem.
Disintegration straight Up 20' and then using Anti-magic to prevent most means of following him.

Sometimes going straight Down 10 feet, and then going 90° ten feet, and using a Legendary Action against anyone following; these are my favorites to use.

IMO, Xanathar is never to be treated as "Just a Bag of HP".


@Sigreid
I agree with you; the main reason why I bought Dragon Heist, was for the Waterdeep Map/s.

Some of the Faction and Guild info is useful, especially if you are wanting to Run "City Adventures" in Waterdeep.
(I do, to give an occasional break from DotMM)

The only thing that I found any use for in the book, was Xanathar's Dungeon. Actually rather well thought out, since it was written for Low Level PCs, that never get anywhere near Xanathar.

IiRC, that's how I knew about the Illithid.
Another monster PCs had to avoid.

(I believe that there's a Necromancer around somewhere, as well)

The "unlimited Disintegration" was actually a reference to that Dungeon, since "Collapsing the Dungeon" is the goal a couple of NPCs have in the book.


****
Heck, simply change the PC level, and you could still run this Dungeon (mostly) as is. Maybe some better Mooks. Just keep an escape for Xanathar, since he's also got a Lair in Skullport.


****
The Dragon's Vault is - ok.
Solid way to reward good RP.
Nice for the End Encounter, or as a stand alone Dungeon.

Everything else is, meh.

I mostly like DotMM.

[MaxWilson]

While invisibility and Darkness can be negated by the Beholder's anti-magic ability, any spell which inflicts the Blind condition doesn't have this drawback. The Beholder can't turn its anti-magic eye on itself to end an ongoing condition. I'd recommend the Blindness/Deafness spell, or a Gem of Brightness if you can find one.

Sure, but doing so is mostly pointless, especially against a Rogue. Now he's still immune to the eye rays, because he's in an antimagic zone.

Blindness does benefit the warlock of course because he can Eldritch Blast instead of shooting crossbow bolts.


But, with +12 Perception (22 Passive), even Invisibility might not protect you.

Yes, it will. Perception doesn't matter. What matters is the restriction on eye rays:

Eye Rays. The beholder shoots three of the following magical eye rays at random (reroll duplicates), choosing one to three targets it can see within 120 ft. of it:

Perception may let the beholder figure out where you are, but it won't let it hit you with an eye ray. At most it could manipulate environmental effects, e.g. try to disintegrate the base of a pillar to hopefully fall on top of you.

[Wizard_Lizard]

how to defeat a beholder:
Hiwabout I... ...don't?

[lordshadowisle]

As mentioned earlier in this thread, beholders can be easily cheesed with darkness/invisibility. Eye rays need sight for targeting, but the beholder's antimagic cone works against the beholder's own eye rays. In addition, a beholder lacks legendary resistances, so there is always a chance that it is disabled in the first round of combat (esp. to monks, as it lacks con prof.).

Of course, nothing says that Xanathar is alone. Even against the darkness/invisibilty combo, Xanathar with a few well-chosen martial mooks can be devastating. Imagine fighting mundane resistant/immune foes in an AMF. Thus, the problem becomes investigating whether the cheese works against Xanathar, and ensuring he is caught without the protection of his dudes.

[Chronos]

For the fight itself, having a paladin in your party makes a huge difference, as will the Bless spell. Everything a beholder does offers a save, and both of those will make it much easier to pass those saves.

[Damon_Tor]

In terms of the organization: it includes a number of "sleeper agents" who are controlled by Intellect Devourers.

In fact, early in my table's current run on Dragon Heist, one of the PCs actually got taken over by an Intellect Devourer. They're mostly new players and didn't know what had happened with one exception (who is so far keeping his mouth shut). For now I'm allowing the player to continue to play as that character, but now Xenithar has a secret mole inside the party, and knows everything they know.

[Great Dragon]

In terms of the organization: it includes a number of "sleeper agents" who are controlled by Intellect Devourers.

Indeed.
The "last" Spoiler (?) I was deliberately not listing.
(I haven't read everything about Xanathar in DotMM, so...)

I will say, that for my games, it's actually the Mind Flayer that controls the Intellect Devourers, and has it's own (secret from Xanathar) Agenda ....

[Vulsutyr]

I think it’s kind of ridiculous to say that Xanathar can only use its eye rays on visible creature target. After all, the stat block doesn’t say anything about how it digs it’s tunnels, but it does. Maybe Xanathar can’t hit a creature that is invisible normally, but if it can tell exactly where the rogue is, it should be able to use the rays.

[MaxWilson]

I think it’s kind of ridiculous to say that Xanathar can only use its eye rays on visible creature target. After all, the stat block doesn’t say anything about how it digs it’s tunnels, but it does. Maybe Xanathar can’t hit a creature that is invisible normally, but if it can tell exactly where the rogue is, it should be able to use the rays.

Yeah, that's why you've got to test it, to make sure your DM hasn't "fixed" the way beholders work at their table. IMO an invisible Imp chainlock familiar would be ideal, if you can get it to fly up to Xanathar and start annoying him, then watch if he disintegrates the Imp or bites it or orders someone else to kill it. And by "watch" I actually mean "you probably re-cast Find Familiar and ask it how it died."

[Great Dragon]

@MaxWilson
I'd just use the Voice of the Chain Master Invocation, while the Familiar does the harassing. Just don't talk...

[Sigreid]

Step 1: Get his pet fish.
Step 2: Have a druid wildshape to replace his fish.
Step 3:....
Step 4: Profit!

[MaxWilson]

Step 1: Get his pet fish.
Step 2: Have a druid wildshape to replace his fish.
Step 3:....
Step 4: Profit!

"My tooth, my tooth, I think I broke my tooth!"

[Great Dragon]

Step 1: Get his pet fish.
Step 2: Have a druid wildshape to replace his fish.
Step 3:....
Step 4: Profit!
Druid also has one level of Great Old One Warlock. Can now make silent "suggestions" to Xanathar that will most likely be acted upon.

Drawback: Xanathar must go away before Druid's Wild Shape wears off.

Benefit: Much closer to figuring out Step 3.


"My tooth, my tooth, I think I broke my tooth!"

LoL. Now I'm imagining Xanathar trying to find a dentist able (willing is optional) to "fix" Silgar!!!!

[Vulsutyr]

Step 1: Get his pet fish.
Step 2: Have a druid wildshape to replace his fish.
Step 3:....
Step 4: Profit!

What does blue text mean? Is it RAW-speak or sarcasm or just joking suggestion?

[MaxWilson]

What does blue text mean? Is it RAW-speak or sarcasm or just joking suggestion?

It means not serious/irony/sarcasm, depending.

[Kyutaru]

To kill a rat, you must first draw him out into the open. He'll win if he's always hiding. Figure out what he comes out for first. Join his organization and learn of the only times the boss ever leaves the underground. Perhaps when a threat is coming or when a rival is in town.

You have to figure out what sets off his paranoia and makes him believe he can't remain where he is. People are at their most vulnerable when reacting to new dangers.

[LordEntrails]

What does blue text mean? Is it RAW-speak or sarcasm or just joking suggestion?
Sarcasm, but also used for humor, non-serious discussion.

[Great Dragon]

To kill a rat, you must first draw him out into the open. He'll win if he's always hiding. Figure out what he comes out for first. Join his organization and learn of the only times the boss ever leaves the underground. Perhaps when a threat is coming or when a rival is in town.

You have to figure out what sets off his paranoia and makes him believe he can't remain where he is. People are at their most vulnerable when reacting to new dangers.

Heh. But, the rat knows you're people are trying to lure it out, and is plotting on how to Ambush them!!

[MaxWilson]

Heh. But, the rat knows you're people are trying to lure it out, and is plotting on how to Ambush them!!

Play and counterplay what makes the game fun!

The worst that can happen is that everybody dies, then you memorialize them in song and story/hang their character sheets on the wall with a tombstone note saying how they died, and roll up new PCs.

[Great Dragon]

Play and counterplay what makes the game fun!

Most definitely!

For the DM: The great thing about Xanathar, is these shinagines can go on for IRL years!

The Lore is that "Xanathar" is just a title. There have been several (if not lots) of Beholders with it.

So, killing the "current one" just means that another Beholder moves in, and takes over - most likely pretending to be the same (dead) one: to throw enemies off.

But, even if there's not a replacement, the "Guild" still Pretends that he's still there, until the new one takes over.

(Did the Illithid or the Necromancer take over? If not, who is the new "boss", until there is a new "Xanathar"?)

Sure, if the Party had infiltrated the "Guild", they might get a shot at the new Xanathar, but that's taking a Huge Risk at being "found out" by the other Guild members; and now the game is also a deadly game of Spy vs Spy.

[Beleriphon]

Ally with the open Lord of Waterdeep first, Xanathar is scared shirtless of her.

Given that Laerel is a CR23 wizard/Chosen of Mystra, yes Xanathar can't wear shirts.


To kill a rat, you must first draw him out into the open. He'll win if he's always hiding. Figure out what he comes out for first. Join his organization and learn of the only times the boss ever leaves the underground. Perhaps when a threat is coming or when a rival is in town.

You have to figure out what sets off his paranoia and makes him believe he can't remain where he is. People are at their most vulnerable when reacting to new dangers.

What sets of Xanathar's paranoia? Everything. His first response is usual disintegration.

[MaxWilson]

What sets of Xanathar's paranoia? Everything. His first response is usual disintegration.

Ah. Well, then, that calls for judicious repeated use of Animate Dead + Seeming (led by a chainlock familiar also under Seeming), plus maybe a few Programmed Illusions in well-chosen locations, to create rumors of Xanathar's associates engaged in various suspicious activities, to stoke that paranoia into disintegrating most of his allies, just to be on the safe side.

"Sure I'm paranoid--but am I paranoid enough?"

[Great Dragon]

Beholder Combat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?590271-Beholder-Combat-Alteration&p=23976195#post23976195)


Given that Laerel is a CR23 wizard/Chosen of Mystra, yes Xanathar can't wear shirts.
LoL



What sets of Xanathar's paranoia? Everything. His first response is usual disintegration.

Do you have any references to that?

So far: Everything I've seen on Xanathar, it was more cautious then the Average Beholder. It's preference to use minions to "interact" with the rest of the world, made it seem more cowardly.
(This may only be my interpretation of the various Modules, though. Especially the Low Level "Dungeons" where even if Xanathar was there, PCs never "met" it.)

So, Xanathar might use Charm Person to get needed information, it usually tried to "make a deal" first. Only "dangerous" foes, that Xanathar felt it could actually deal with, got Disintegrated.

Still expanding on my knowledge....