Blood oath of Vengeance

[Deathwisher]

What do we know about blood oaths of vengeance.

According to Eugene's claims a blood oath of vengeance, once sworn, becomes a permanent obligation to a person and all of his/her descendants. Until it is fullfilled, none of them can enter the afterlife.
The reality seems to be a bit different. Eugene is blocked from entering the afterlife, but his son is not. Apparently, Eugene was mistaken, so what is going on?

A) Not fullfillling the oath keeps the person who swears it ot of the afterlife, but does not carry the same weight for his/her descendants.
This makes sense, afterall, the descendants never swore anything. Punishing them for breaking an oath they never swore seems a bit unreasonable. Moreover, it would lead to logistical problems. What if the XYkon had actually died of old age and never attained lich status. There would have been no opportunity to destroy him and all future decendants of Eugene Greenhilt would be banned from Mt Celestia. This scenario would probably occur fairly often and the clouds around the mountain would overflow with oath breakers and their descendants. Also, Violet said that she was allowed in since her descendant fullfilled her oath, but she never mentioned that anyone from generations in between had been denied acces.

B) As a descendant, fullflilling the oath, or at least making a serious attempt to do so clearly gains you some points on the Lawful scale. It may not be a requirement, but it is considered a bonus.

Tentative conclusion: Eugene has a big problem. There is no real incentive for his children to do anthing about the oath. Roy may feel he has a moral obligation because Xykon is a threat to the world (Xykon himself practically promised not to destroy the world, but Roy clearly sees it as a duty to stop him), but Julia does not have that drive. Moreover, she isn't lawful, so she has no need to gain some 'lawfulness' points either.


On a side note: there may be something else involved as well: Roy died while trying to fulfill the oath and the Deva has stated that trying, even if unsuccesful, is considered a plus point. Eugene gave the oath a shot, but then basically ignored it and dumped the responsibility on his children. :smallmad: Not a nice thing to do, not particularly good or lawful either, though clearly it wasn't enough to change his alignment. This may well have contributed to the decision. Perhaps if Roy had completely ignored the oath and died in some other fashion it would have counted heavier against him. And maybe if Eugene has really tried to fullfil his oath and died in the attempt they would have cut him some slack.

[Lavidor]

We also know the exact wording and how it is made (from SoD):
Say: I, [Insert Name Here], swear on the blood that flows from my wounds this day that I shall not rest, in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted horrible vengeance on those that have slighted me, named here as [Insert Target Name Here]. while having the Blood Oath symbol carved on your back with a dagger, then keep a bandage on overnight, no magical healing for a week, put some moisturizer on it every few hours, it'll heal up nicely. :smalleek: That was a lot of commas.

[squidthingy]

SOD spoiler
if the words are correct than it is A)

In the blood oath eugene says that he will not "rest in this life or the next", it never says that his decendents are not allowed to rest just that he isn't until one of his decendents fufills the oath

[FireDrake]

In your second point you seem to be misunderstanding what they refer to by
trying.

The Deva is not refering to gaining lawfulness by trying the blood oath. She is instead just refering to trying to be lawful (for lawfulness). The point she is making is that one must try to maintain their alignment, in order to get to the corressponding afterlife, not strictly follow a set of rules.

I.E. Roy often commits chaotic acts, but he also tries to fix them.

[Deathwisher]

In your second point you seem to be misunderstanding what they refer to by
trying.

The Deva is not refering to gaining lawfulness by trying the blood oath. She is instead just refering to trying to be lawful (for lawfulness). The point she is making is that one must try to maintain their alignment, in order to get to the corressponding afterlife, not strictly follow a set of rules.

I.E. Roy often commits chaotic acts, but he also tries to fix them.

I didn't mean trying to swear the blood oath yourself, I meant trying to fullfil the blood oath sworn by your anscestor, which shows a sense of responsibility, even if you fail.

She comments on Roys attempts to fix his fathers mistakes. Obviously swearing a blood oath is not going to earn you many lawful good points. Effectively you're swearing to become a vigilante, which hardly qualifies as lawful and most people don't consider this sort of fanaticism to be a good thing either, though that is culturally dependent. I was commenting on Roys attempting to clean up his fathers mess and thereby fullfilling the oath.

[SteveDJ]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but since I cannot find such thread, this one seems like a good similar subject thread to ask again:

What is the purpose/advantage of a Blood Oath? Why would someone impose such restrictions on their afterlife? Does it give some sort of bonuses in the future when trying to fulfill it?

[The Wanderer]

Why would someone impose such restrictions on their afterlife?

Because they're being very vengeful. :smallwink:

Seriously, so far as we know it confers no advantages, and is simply a symbol of someone's determination for revenge. Only done by those who are consumed with hate or have had far too much to drink. :smallwink:

[JasonDoomsblade]

Eugene's a sucker and a really horrible father. Case closed. Throw him into a Chaotic door or something.

[holywhippet]

Eugene's a sucker and a really horrible father. Case closed. Throw him into a Chaotic door or something.

His being chaotic is debatable. In many ways he's a stickler for the rules - especially when it comes to speech. He always takes things that are said at their exact meaning and doesn't acknowledge what the speaker meant unless they rephrase it. On the other hand, he blew off a blood oath and apparently wasn't so good to his family.

[Deathwisher]

His being chaotic is debatable. In many ways he's a stickler for the rules - especially when it comes to speech. He always takes things that are said at their exact meaning and doesn't acknowledge what the speaker meant unless they rephrase it. On the other hand, he blew off a blood oath and apparently wasn't so good to his family.

The latter seems to have been a matter of opinion. On his grave it read:
'Devoted husband, passable father', so I guess he wasn't all that bad either

[Deathwisher]

On a side note: there may be something else involved as well: Roy died while trying to fulfill the oath and the Deva has stated that trying, even if unsuccesful, is considered a plus point. Eugene gave the oath a shot, but then basically ignored it and dumped the responsibility on his children. :smallmad: Not a nice thing to do, not particularly good or lawful either, though clearly it wasn't enough to change his alignment. This may well have contributed to the decision. Perhaps if Roy had completely ignored the oath and died in some other fashion it would have counted heavier against him. And maybe if Eugene has really tried to fullfil his oath and died in the attempt they would have cut him some slack.

Not bad for a wild guess, even if I say so myself :smallsmile:

[thereaper]

Well, I originally thought that Roy's being given the okay for the afterlife was a sign that blood oaths couldn't be used to screw other people out of their afterlife, but the reasoning given afterward made me uncertain. It sounds as if the doomsday scenario I thought up once (where BBEG makes an impossible blood oath, has some kids, and waits until there's been enough "breeding" for everyone to be descended from him) is actually possible.

Anyone have any ideas on this? Preferably, some possible technicalities that might invalidate it as a possibility? Screwing someone out of ever having an afterlife is probably the worst thing anyone could ever do to someone.

[teratorn]

Seriously, so far as we know it confers no advantages, and is simply a symbol of someone's determination for revenge. Only done by those who are consumed with hate or have had far too much to drink. :smallwink:
It depends if you include honor in your game. You get two honor points by fulfilling an oath,and you lose 4 by breaking an oath. These can give bonus on sense motive, leadership score, will saves, and diplomacy checks.

[Tyrmatt]

I notice the wording stipulates "I will not rest in this life or any other...".Methinks Eugene has been denied by a technicality :D

[Deathwisher]

I notice the wording stipulates "I will not rest in this life or any other...".Methinks Eugene has been denied by a technicality :D

I guess blood oaths are pretty much like legal documents. You have to read the fine print, or you're in big trouble. In this case it is not unreasonable though. Imagine the massive injustice of denying someone entry to the afterlife, because an ancestor (however many times removed) swore an oath without thinking.

[chibibar]

again folks.... Bloodoath is a creation of a DM (in this case Rich) there are no hard and fast rules unless we want them in it.

This is the beauty of gaming. We can use the rules as guideline but also at the same time create whatever our heart desire. The rules are set by Rich cause this is how his version of the bloodoath works. So if you want to use a similar system but in your system states that all descendant cannot enter after life then so be it.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

again folks.... Bloodoath is a creation of a DM (in this case Rich) there are no hard and fast rules unless we want them in it.
Indeed. That's why it is so deliciously discuss-able. It's not based on any hard D&D rules. Plenty of room to let loose with rampant speculation!

I mean, look at all the stuff put out by Harry Potter fans up until last July. And that was all Rowling's stuff. No hard game rules to guide us there! :smallwink:

[dragongirl13]

The Blood Oath makes you swear to not rest in this life or any other until you or your heirs have enacted terrible vengeance on the ones who have slighted you, named here as ______.

If you pursue the oath to the end, you can earn your rightful place in whatever plane you'll go to when you die. You will be able to enjoy the afterlife, even though your heirs will still be bound with it.

If you choose consciously to abandon your oath before you die, you will not be allowed into the afterlife. Your heirs can fulfill the oath for you, and then you will finally be able to enter the afterlife. However, if they die pursuing the oath, they can get into the afterlife, much to your annoyance.

If your younger heir fulfills the oath while the oldest heir is still alive, the oath is removed because technically they're both your heirs.

If you have no children or other heirs when you die after abandoning your oath, than unless you're a powerful ghost you're pretty screwed.

The Blood Oath can pass through many generations of the family, meaning that if your children don't succeed, their children can still fulfill your oath.

The Blood Oath of Vengeance shows up on your permanent record when you are reviewed for an afterlife, especially if you were the one who made the oath.

If your heirs complete the oath before your death, the blood oath is completed.