Path of War - suggestion for DSP

[JMAP94]

Want ot start out by saying I love the path of war and the work dreamscarred press put into it.

NOTE: if your not versed in path of war, this might sound like random cave ramblings of vaguely nerdy words.

So I'm making a 3rd level character which is going to be a bushi warlord/Oracle and it's got me seeing things in path of war that I think are kind of strange imho. Maybe Elricaltovilla will see this, he always comments on my path of war stuff.

If I was a straight 3rd level warlord, with all my eggs in that class, I'd know 7 level one maneuvers and 1 level 2 maneuver. I'd get to ready 5. Ok so far so good.

However this is this weird part. If I have the practiced initiator trait, and I take my first two levels in Oracle, then take my third level in warlord, I get six maneuvers that I can take directly from 2nd level. Yes I only get to ready four of them, but still.

It just doesnt make sense to me that the 2nd level oracle/ 1st level warlord gets way better path of war stuff than the 3rd level warlord. Flavor wise, the player who has more levels in the class specifically designed around path of war, and dedicated all their levels to it, is less versed in it than an Oracle spell caster.

The way I want to handle it, and suggest to my party, and to dreamscarred, is that you have manuver progression tied to initiator level in that class, and not to actual class level. Like if the flavor is that my character taking levels in fighter "is still practicing and learning from the art of the blade" as it says in systems and use, it should be possible for my manuver progression to continue gradually and not just "jump" next time I take a level in the class.

In addition, if you ever gain a level in a initiator class, you should have to "level up" your character from initator 1, then 2, then 3.
For example, if my 2nd level Oracle with the practied initator takes a level in warlord, he picks his maneuvers for IL1 (6 level 1 manuvers) his manuvers for IL2 (another level 1 manuever) and then for IL3 (a 2nd level manuver) so he'd be on par with any 3rd level initiator.

[StSword]

It's more powerful with all initiator classes though.

Or at least I can't remember a rule that would prevent that bonus from counting twice for say a warder/mystic character, since a multiclassed initiator adds half their other levels to all their initiator classes, so that trait would add one to the effective level of other initiator classes too. Unless I've forgotten something.

So a 2d lvl Mystic/1st lvl Warder would have plenty of maneuvers, a lot of them second level, and could use all their maneuvers at effective level 3, thanks to that bonus to the warder level.

I don't know how it would work in real life, since I've never playtested, but I'd guess that DSP wanted to make path of war attractive to try out, and since the basis is half the levels in other classes they saw no major power level issues- A tenth level fighter who takes a level in Mystic would have 3rd level maneuvers, but a 11th lvl Mystic would have 6th level maneuvers.

Honestly, it kind of seems like the issue is allowing that trait in a low level game.

After all, without that trait, the hypothetical 2d lvl Oracle/1st lvl Warder would only have an effective initiator level of 2, which still only allows for first level maneuvers.

But I admit I'm armchair quarterbacking here, so maybe I'm completely wrong.

[upho]

I think your perspective may be a bit myopic.
If I was a straight 3rd level warlord, with all my eggs in that class, I'd know 7 level one maneuvers and 1 level 2 maneuver. I'd get to ready 5. Ok so far so good.

However this is this weird part. If I have the practiced initiator trait, and I take my first two levels in Oracle, then take my third level in warlord, I get six maneuvers that I can take directly from 2nd level. Yes I only get to ready four of them, but still.

It just doesnt make sense to me that the 2nd level oracle/ 1st level warlord gets way better path of war stuff than the 3rd level warlord. Flavor wise, the player who has more levels in the class specifically designed around path of war, and dedicated all their levels to it, is less versed in it than an Oracle spell caster.I'll give you an even better example; whatever 4/warlord 1. With Practiced Initiator, that nets you warlord IL 5 and up to 1 maneuver of 2nd level plus 5 maneuvers and 1 stance of 3rd level.

Generally speaking, in most games and for most characters starting at say 3rd level or later, this is definitely advantageous. But it's typically much less so in the case of a "whatever 2/initiator 1" combo and/or a game starting at 1st. The reason for this is of course that you're still paying for the MC, as in comparison to a straight "warlord 3" build you:

get 2 less warlord maneuvers known
1 less warlord maneuver readied
1 less warlord stance less
have to pay a trait in order to keep your IL on par
2 levels behind in warlord class features

Also keep in mind that the advantage of being able to pick higher level starting maneuvers isn't necessarily as strong as it may seem, considering that you still have to meet their prerequisites. Around mid levels, the straight warlord will have caught up with you due to maneuver swaps, with the exception of having a 1st level stance instead of a 2nd level one, a difference which typically has near zero impact on effectiveness.

And yes, the "warlord 3" is definitely going to be more of a warlord than an "oracle 2/warlord 1".


The way I want to handle it, and suggest to my party, and to dreamscarred, is that you have manuver progression tied to initiator level in that class, and not to actual class level. Like if the flavor is that my character taking levels in fighter "is still practicing and learning from the art of the blade" as it says in systems and use, it should be possible for my manuver progression to continue gradually and not just "jump" next time I take a level in the class.

In addition, if you ever gain a level in a initiator class, you should have to "level up" your character from initator 1, then 2, then 3.
For example, if my 2nd level Oracle with the practied initator takes a level in warlord, he picks his maneuvers for IL1 (6 level 1 manuvers) his manuvers for IL2 (another level 1 manuever) and then for IL3 (a 2nd level manuver) so he'd be on par with any 3rd level initiator.Sure, you can do this. But it's a heck of a lot more complicated should you MC in later levels, and it doesn't change the fact that the main reason why you want Practiced Initiator is to keep your IL up to scratch, not in order to be able to "bypass" a few low level maneuvers.

Personally, I don't think the design pros of this would outweigh the cons, most notably the price you pay in increased complexity is simply too high.

[Elricaltovilla]

In addition to what upho pointed out, you're neglecting something in your analysis of your own build: practiced initiator.

You spent a trait on your character to make him a better initiator. That is a permanent character resource, and a pretty powerful one given the strength of some other traits out there.

Without spending that trait, your character would only be IL 2, and would not qualify for 2nd level maneuvers yet. In terms of roleplay, the practiced initiator trait represents someone who maintains their training in martial initiating even while they improve themselves in other ways, thus the bump in IL.

So in the end, your character isn't an Oracle 2/Warlord 1, but rather an Oracle 2/Warlord 1 who worked hard to maintain their martial abilities even while learning to understand the divine power that had been thrust upon them by the gods.

[JMAP94]

Tha is for replying.

Idk maybe my way would be too complex. But i still feel like it shouldn't work the way it does where if you take that first level at a specific time, your front loaded with like 6 powerful manuvers.

On a side note that's related, Can i ask if at any point in development, did you guys ever consider a system where there was just one manuver progression table that all classes shared?

[Elricaltovilla]

Tha is for replying.

Idk maybe my way would be too complex. But i still feel like it shouldn't work the way it does where if you take that first level at a specific time, your front loaded with like 6 powerful manuvers.

If you take your first level at first level you're frontloaded with 6 powerful maneuvers. The difference between first and second level maneuvers is pretty small, and there are quite a few first level maneuvers I'd seriously consider choosing over second level maneuvers depending on the build. There are even some outliers that might merit consideration over third level maneuvers, but that is probably pushing it.


On a side note that's related, Can i ask if at any point in development, did you guys ever consider a system where there was just one manuver progression table that all classes shared?

Sure, you can ask that.:smalltongue: