Optimized monk for 3.5

[kvothecomplex]

Hello all! Im looking for some build advice for the monk im currently working on. Im following a psionic fist build guide that eventually uses metamorphosis and overchannel but I just hit level three and im looking for what feat would be the best at this level. My DM is allowing me (for whatever reason) to take any feat I meet prerequisites for as my bonus feats and isnt requiring me to stick to the bonus feats listed in the PH for monk. At 6 I plan to take improved natural attack and overchannel which leaves me looking for a feat for level 3. What feat do you guys suggest? Is there any other feat available at this level to increase my damage die? I already have wild talent and natural weaponry as well as improved unarmed strike, flurry of blows, and combat reflexes. Looking to increasevmy unarmed damage output as much as possible.

Thanks for any suggestions guys!

[OgresAreCute]

Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle increases your effective monk level by 4 for unarmed damage. You don't qualify at level 3 (needs +3 BAB), but you can take one of the other feats at level 3 and then SUS later. Snap Kick from the same book gives you more attacks, but requires +6 BAB, so you can take that with your level 9 feat maybe.

[kvothecomplex]

Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle increases your effective monk level by 4 for unarmed damage. You don't qualify at level 3 (needs +3 BAB), but you can take one of the other feats at level 3 and then SUS later. Snap Kick from the same book gives you more attacks, but requires +6 BAB, so you can take that with your level 9 feat maybe.

I had looked at empty hand mastery or superior unarmed strike and debated just taking overchannel at 3 and one of these at 6. How good is the +4 monk levels though? Overchannel will do nothing at level 3 but is needed for the build after I start in psionic fist at seven. I was debating versatile unarmed strike to help against DR but wasnt sure If I should be more focused on increasing damage die or effective size. Shadow Blade looks nice as well but I don't think I have the freedom to get a shadowhand stance and then the feat on top of that.

[TheCount]

First, thank your DM.

Improved natural attack can be gained from fanged ring.

i thought empty hand mestery is a bonusfeat if you meet the prerequisits?

versatil is nice if you have space for it hm....

get thalshalotra if you can, its from secrets of sarlona.

[Biggus]

Consider the Fist of the Forest prestige class (CCh). While it's relatively costly to enter (requires Great Fortitude, Power Attack, and 4 ranks each in Handle Animal and Survival, and also doesn't allow you to sleep indoors or buy food more than three times a month) it increases your damage die twice in three levels, and also gives you a Monk analogue of Rage, which increases your unarmed damage by 2 while it's in effect and gives you an extra bite attack.

[liquidformat]

Can you give us a bit more information about your build, like race and ability scores, what prcs you might also be looking at?

Anyways here are some random comments, unarmed swordsage dip will probably be a good idea, even better if your dm lets you do partial bab. If your dm has removed the alignment restrictions on monk taking a two level dip into barbarian to pickup pounce, improved trip, and +2 bab is a great idea. If you haven't already I would suggest taking a look at Fist of the Forest, it adds a huge amount for 3 levels.

[Reprimand]

You could also go the AoO tank monk build. it takes a bit to come online though.

I recommend a handy haversack for potions and other useful consumables.

Basically Decisive Strike (easier to optimize a few attacks that a bunch, +2 stunning fist DC), Ability Focus Stunning Fist (+2 DC), Ki Straps (+2 DC).
Stunning Fist (duh!)
Combat Reflexes
Improved Trip (pretty much just better than disarm)
For now settle for decisive strike first hostile Adjacent with stunning fist bonuses and bullying casters
Pharaohs fist feat is essential (basically aoe stunning fist) and rapid stunning for multiple stunning fist attempts in a round.
Way later pick up Robliars Gambit to just smacking foes and trying to stun them with AoOs negating the damage you'd take from their attack. Also it should be noted that decisive strike's double damage applies on aoos as long as you used it the current round.

Fist of the forest pairs well with this since it allows you to get con bonus to AC. Strength > Con >= Wisdom < Dex < Int < Cha

[kvothecomplex]

Can you give us a bit more information about your build, like race and ability scores, what prcs you might also be looking at?

Anyways here are some random comments, unarmed swordsage dip will probably be a good idea, even better if your dm lets you do partial bab. If your dm has removed the alignment restrictions on monk taking a two level dip into barbarian to pickup pounce, improved trip, and +2 bab is a great idea. If you haven't already I would suggest taking a look at Fist of the Forest, it adds a huge amount for 3 levels.

Of course! Human monk with the following stats
18 str
18 dex
16 con
14 int
16 wis
12 cha

My DM did not remove alignment restrictions and is actually quite big on this. I looked at swordsage for shadow blade but didn't go that route because if im not mistaken I would then be required to wait another level to go psionic fist. I haven't looked much into FotF but the original build plan was always to go psionic fist at 7 and build towards overchannel and metamorphosis. The build guide I was roughly following is on the dandwiki under ultimate monk SRD.

Thanks to everyone for the replies and all the info! Please keep it coming!

[kvothecomplex]

First, thank your DM.

Improved natural attack can be gained from fanged ring.

i thought empty hand mestery is a bonusfeat if you meet the prerequisits?

versatil is nice if you have space for it hm....

get thalshalotra if you can, its from secrets of sarlona.

Oh dont worry I thanked the DM hahaha. I was like I don't think this works like this and his reply was well it does now. So I was planning to take improved natural attack at 6... are you suggesting I just find a fanged ring and save the feat?

[kvothecomplex]

It may be worth mentioning that my character has an earth elemental bloodline that grants different perks every 4 levels I believe... at level 4 I will be getting power attack for free so I havent taken it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How "optimized" are we talking about, here? Because this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial) contains a number of monk builds capable of taking on (and taking down) everything in the Elder Evils book, including a number of full-spellcasters.

[Karl Aegis]

Are you sure you want to be spending your feats on 0-2 damage? I feel like there are better things to spend feats on.

[kvothecomplex]

Are you sure you want to be spending your feats on 0-2 damage? I feel like there are better things to spend feats on.

This is what I was worried about with just increasing damage die. I feel like I should be leaning somewhere else. Im hoping to maximize damage output while still going with the overchannel metamorphosis build.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You should probably spend a couple of feats on Ancestral Relic and (if you can swing it) Landlord. Use the former to buy a psychoactive skin of proteus, turn yourself into a building or ship or something (which is an object), and use Landlord to pump tons of money into it. Something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook/page11&p=23285432#post23285432), in fact.

[schreier]

If you can work in warlock 1, with practiced spellcaster, you can take Eldritch claws and beast claws with enlightened fist.

[SirNibbles]

Regarding Superior Unarmed Strike: I wouldn't get feats that can be replaced with items. Yes, the Monk's Belt is a bit expensive for you now, but at higher levels that cost isn't so big.

You're better off getting something like Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) or something else that will help you be better at more than just punching things.

[Maat Mons]

Tashalatora has already been mentioned, but I fear it may have slipped by unnoticed. So I'd like to reiterate that, but in a wordier fashion.

The Tashalatora feat (Secrets of Sarlona, p119) lets you pick any psionic class, and make it stack with Monk for AC, Flurry of Blows, and unarmed damage. So, basically, you're giving the Psionics Fist's Monk Abilities class feature to any psionic class you want. Except better, because the Psionic Fist ability doesn't advance Flurry of Blows.

So, my suggestion is, don't take the 3rd level of Monk. Keep it at Monk 2, and start advancing Ardent (Complete Psionic, p5). If possible, use the retraining rules to replace Wild Talent with Monastic Training (Eberron Campaign Setting, p57), and use your 3rd-level feat for Tashalatora. You'll start dual-advancing psionics and monk abilities right now instead of 4 levels from now.

[Biggus]

I haven't looked much into FotF but the original build plan was always to go psionic fist at 7 and build towards overchannel and metamorphosis. The build guide I was roughly following is on the dandwiki under ultimate monk SRD.



It may be worth mentioning that my character has an earth elemental bloodline that grants different perks every 4 levels I believe... at level 4 I will be getting power attack for free so I havent taken it.

I don't know much about psionics so I can't comment on the relative power levels, but if you're getting Power Attack for free I'd definitely have a look at FotF as you'd only have to waste one feat to qualify.

A word about D&D Wiki: it's notorious for having builds that don't work, use homebrew content or use dubious rules interpretations, so I'd check it over pretty carefully before you commit to it if you haven't already. For example, looking at the ultimate monk I notice it has several nonstandard items listed and uses colossal+ as a size category, which only applies to epic dragons.

[kvothecomplex]

Tashalatora has already been mentioned, but I fear it may have slipped by unnoticed. So I'd like to reiterate that, but in a wordier fashion.

The Tashalatora feat (Secrets of Sarlona, p119) lets you pick any psionic class, and make it stack with Monk for AC, Flurry of Blows, and unarmed damage. So, basically, you're giving the Psionics Fist's Monk Abilities class feature to any psionic class you want. Except better, because the Psionic Fist ability doesn't advance Flurry of Blows.

So, my suggestion is, don't take the 3rd level of Monk. Keep it at Monk 2, and start advancing Ardent (Complete Psionic, p5). If possible, use the retraining rules to replace Wild Talent with Monastic Training (Eberron Campaign Setting, p57), and use your 3rd-level feat for Tashalatora. You'll start dual-advancing psionics and monk abilities right now instead of 4 levels from now.

I did miss this as I didn't recognize the feat but this sounds very promising and im going to look into it right now!

[kvothecomplex]

So if I went Ardent at 3 and took the tashalatora feat would I just stay ardent for the remaining levels? That is to say do I stay away from psionic fist at that point? Can the ardent class get the same powers?

[Maat Mons]

Ardent is kind of weird about what powers you can learn.

If you want the same power list as Psionic Fist, you could take levels in Psychic Warrior instead of Ardent. They're both 3/4 base attack bonus classes that manifest off of Wisdom. Psychic Warrior even gets you a bunch of bonus feats. The down side is, Psychic Warriors don't get as many power points per day.

Whichever psionic class you choose, you'll want to stick with it.

[kvothecomplex]

Ardent is kind of weird about what powers you can learn.

If you want the same power list as Psionic Fist, you could take levels in Psychic Warrior instead of Ardent. They're both 3/4 base attack bonus classes that manifest off of Wisdom. Psychic Warrior even gets you a bunch of bonus feats. The down side is, Psychic Warriors don't get as many power points per day.

Whichever psionic class you choose, you'll want to stick with it.

10-4. I was looking at the mantles for the ardent and liked a few of them but psychic warrior or psionic fist seem like they have more power options? How large of a difference is the total PP. Also I dont actually see metamorphosis in the psychic warrior list of powers so im not entirely sure how I was crossing over to using that power with the original build.... is there a feat or something that gives the psionic fist access to other powers? The build must have taken it somewhere...

Edit: Expanded Knowledge... found it hahaha

[Maat Mons]

Edit: Ninja'd

The only class with native access to Metamorphosis is Psion, and even then only if you choose Egoist as your Discipline.

Everybody else has to use the Expanded Knowledge feat. If you go Psychic Warrior or Psionic Fist, you'll be able to get Metamorphosis at 15th level (Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 13 or Monk 6 / Psionic Fist 9). If you go Ardent, you could get it as early as 9th level (Monk 2 / Ardent 7 + Practiced Manifester feat), if your DM rules favorably on Ardent's weird max power level mechanic.

[animewatcha]

Since you are wanting to do psionics. Do you plan on getting claws?

[kvothecomplex]

Since you are wanting to do psionics. Do you plan on getting claws?

I did not plan on getting claws but am open to the suggestion if it has major benefits.

[kvothecomplex]

Edit: Ninja'd

The only class with native access to Metamorphosis is Psion, and even then only if you choose Egoist as your Discipline.

Everybody else has to use the Expanded Knowledge feat. If you go Psychic Warrior or Psionic Fist, you'll be able to get Metamorphosis at 15th level (Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 13 or Monk 6 / Psionic Fist 9). If you go Ardent, you could get it as early as 9th level (Monk 2 / Ardent 7 + Practiced Manifester feat), if your DM rules favorably on Ardent's weird max power level mechanic.

Im assuming you would need to follow the natural world mantal in this case?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Staple a level of monk onto this build (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2926.msg97988#msg97988)?

[edit] The move to minmaxforums has totally screwed up that post. All the formatting is fubar'd, and large chunks of the post are just gone. Sorry about that.

[kvothecomplex]

Edit: Ninja'd

The only class with native access to Metamorphosis is Psion, and even then only if you choose Egoist as your Discipline.

Everybody else has to use the Expanded Knowledge feat. If you go Psychic Warrior or Psionic Fist, you'll be able to get Metamorphosis at 15th level (Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 13 or Monk 6 / Psionic Fist 9). If you go Ardent, you could get it as early as 9th level (Monk 2 / Ardent 7 + Practiced Manifester feat), if your DM rules favorably on Ardent's weird max power level mechanic.

Wouldn't a 3rd level ardent with 11 PP be capable of learning and manifesting metamorphosis since it only requires 7 PP to manifest? Im missing something I think because the way I read it you could get metamorphosis at level 5 if you went 2 monk/ 3 ardent

[Maat Mons]

Oh, there is a mantle that gives Metamorphosis. I had missed that.

You can't spend more power points on a single power than your manifester level. So you'd need manifester level 7 to be able to manifest a 4th-level power.

But yes, my original "minimum" was incorrect. I'd been thinking you'd have to wait an extra 2 levels because of Expanded Knowledge.

[animewatcha]

I did not plan on getting claws but am open to the suggestion if it has major benefits.

Beast strike feat ( dragon magazine ) has unarmed damage become unarmed damage + claw damage per hit. So this means str mod x 2. If you had enhancement bonus of + 1 on fist and +1 on claws. Your unarmed strike in a roundabout way does +2 damage from enhancement bonuses ( that normally wouldn't stack in the first place ). There's other goodies too.

[emeraldstreak]

This is what I was worried about with just increasing damage die. I feel like I should be leaning somewhere else. Im hoping to maximize damage output while still going with the overchannel metamorphosis build.

There's no alternative to increasing damage die for monks https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1133161

[kvothecomplex]

I think im leaning toward psychic warrior with tashalatora. When I take psychic warrior at 3 since I am technically monk 2 / psychic warrior 1 do I gain skill points as per first level of psychic warrior or just the 2 + INT. Do my max ranks for skills go off of total level and if so can I put all my skill points in psicraft and take practiced manifester in the same level (can use bonus feat for this since DM is allowing me to pick anything as my bonus feats). Finally if I can take PM on my first level of psychic warrior does that mean I can choose and manifest a power with a cost of 5 PP or less at level 1?

[liquidformat]

you would gain just the 2+int, you only gain the first level skills at first level not at the first level of every class you take.

[kvothecomplex]

you would gain just the 2+int, you only gain the first level skills at first level not at the first level of every class you take.

Thank you for the clarification on the skill progression! Would you be able to confirm or correct my assumptions on the manifester level + practiced manifester question?

[liquidformat]

Thank you for the clarification on the skill progression! Would you be able to confirm or correct my assumptions on the manifester level + practiced manifester question?

So pm is depended on your hd, so the answer is maybe, if you take psy-warrior at level 3 then your ML is 3 with PM if you take psyfist at 7 then PM at 9 you would be at ML 6

[Ken Murikumo]

Get Superior Unarmed Damage as mentioned earlier. Get a monks belt and a monks tattoo (expensive but helpful for monks). Argue with your DM that all 3 of those stack as it's a grey area that turns to argument sometimes.

Look into the spell Greater Mighty Wallop. Be it a wand or custom magic item of at least CL15 (this will be pricy).

Buff your unarmed attacks with GM Wallop and at, like, lvl 7-ish you'd be dealing UA damage as a colossal lvl 20 monk. Something like 12d8 per hit. Combine this with any of the other suggestions here for more raw power!

[kvothecomplex]

So pm is depended on your hd, so the answer is maybe, if you take psy-warrior at level 3 then your ML is 3 with PM if you take psyfist at 7 then PM at 9 you would be at ML 6

Ah missed the part were it said the bonus couldn't exceed your HD. Thanks for the correction

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Howsabout the King of Smack (https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471409-The-King-of-Smack-(ZombieGleeMax))?

[PhantasyPen]

I'm going to say this now since I saw you're going Tashalatora, and I didn't see anyone else mention it: Make sure your alignment is Good, then take the Exalted feat (from Book of Exalted Deeds) Intuitive Attack. This will scale the attack rolls (but not damage sadly) of all your natural attacks and simple weapons off of your Wisdom stat, which I hope you understand is a huge boon for the Monk, since it greatly reduces the need for Strength on your build.

[kvothecomplex]

I'm going to say this now since I saw you're going Tashalatora, and I didn't see anyone else mention it: Make sure your alignment is Good, then take the Exalted feat (from Book of Exalted Deeds) Intuitive Attack. This will scale the attack rolls (but not damage sadly) of all your natural attacks and simple weapons off of your Wisdom stat, which I hope you understand is a huge boon for the Monk, since it greatly reduces the need for Strength on your build.

With both my strength and wisdom at 18 for base stats will it really help that much? With only 5 stat point increases even if I max wisdom everytime arent I only losing 2 points to attack and damage?

[emeraldstreak]

With both my strength and wisdom at 18 for base stats will it really help that much? With only 5 stat point increases even if I max wisdom everytime arent I only losing 2 points to attack and damage?

Best focus on one of Strength, Wisdom(Intuitive Attack), or Dexterity(Weapon Finesse).

[Max Caysey]

Hello all! Im looking for some build advice for the monk im currently working on. Im following a psionic fist build guide that eventually uses metamorphosis and overchannel but I just hit level three and im looking for what feat would be the best at this level. My DM is allowing me (for whatever reason) to take any feat I meet prerequisites for as my bonus feats and isnt requiring me to stick to the bonus feats listed in the PH for monk. At 6 I plan to take improved natural attack and overchannel which leaves me looking for a feat for level 3. What feat do you guys suggest? Is there any other feat available at this level to increase my damage die? I already have wild talent and natural weaponry as well as improved unarmed strike, flurry of blows, and combat reflexes. Looking to increasevmy unarmed damage output as much as possible.

Thanks for any suggestions guys!

There is a build where you hit, trip, grapple, trip, hit hit hit... Its Basically King from Tekken. Once you got your hold on the enemy you don't let go again.



How to become KING from Tekken

1) Intiate combat with a charge (and hit) to deal damage and activate scorpion’s grasp.

2) If you succeed in the following grapple check (get high grapple check), you automatically (per the grapple rules), deal unarmed damage (get high unarmed damage)

3) By dealing min 10 damage, you activate knock down.

4) When tripping someone (get high trip), you activate great throw, which deals unarmed damage, thus activating scorpion’s grasp again.

5) If the following grapple check is successful both are now on the floor, grappling.

6) Rinse and repeat.


There is an ongoing debate whether you get an extra attack from improved trip, when combining it with knock down. In the above example I have chosen the conservative reading which does not include the extra attack.

Make sure to have the Sandals of the Tiger's Leap (3.0 from S&F)

Hope this wrestler suits your needs!

[Mato]

Hello all! Im looking for some build advice for the monk im currently working on. Im following a psionic fist build guide that eventually uses metamorphosis and overchannel but I just hit level three and im looking for what feat would be the best at this level.Most of the forms you can change into are depreciated by the fact your physical scores and unarmed damage will probably be superior in the effort of just trying to get to that point. An alternative route could be psion focused build that dipped monk and picked up the monastic training and tashalatora feats.


How good is the +4 monk levels though?With proper utilization of ACFs, monk can last up to nine levels which is when it obtains at-will blink. A better cut off point is the 7th level after it obtains shadow blend and qualifies for mantis leap.


Consider the Fist of the Forest prestige class (CCh).If you consider FoF, talk with your DM about how it's unarmed damage is worded. The problem is it says if you already deal X then increase to Y, what is should say is if you already deal X or more then increase to Y.


This is what I was worried about with just increasing damage die.With a decent CL'ed greater mighty wallop a monk's unarmed damage will reach up to 12d8 (avg 54). If you need more dice, I think it's like another 50k in magical items to bring that to 216d8. Damage will not be a concern of yours at mid-to-high levels.


There is a build where you hit, trip, grapple, trip, hit hit hit...This suggestion is normally built using the passive monk and the knock-down feat, with exemplar of evil's invisible fist ACF it's also incredible hard for other combatants to interfere.