Bard/Paladin thoughts?

[Hytheter]

Hey all. I was wondering what everyone thinks about this multiclass combination.

The natural comparison is to sorcadins, which are a real killer MC. Bard/Paladin has some commonalities with it (namely shared Charisma dependence and full caster progression allowing for massive smiting potential) which seems like a good start, though obviously bards lack some tools like metamagic and some spells that really makes the sorcerer multiclass sing. I'm not expecting the bard build to reach the same heights, but do you think it's still good/worthwhile? What do you think good/fun builds might be, especially regarding spell selection and subclasses? What can it bring to the table that a sorcadin can't and how can you capitalise on its strengths?

Currently I'm pondering Paladin 2/Swords Bard X. Swords lets you get the best smitely spell slot progression while still getting extra attack, which is one thing that sorcerers can't do. The flourishes give a little mobility and let you pile even more dXs onto your attacks and give some other nice options on top. I'm thinking a focus on utility/support spells, while mostly relying on the martial abilities in combat. A part of me says TWF style might actually be worthwhile for this build as well to amp up the smite factor.

Unfortunately though I feel like it'd be a little slow to come online. It also feels like it could be pretty hungry for ASIs since even if you shy away from save spells and the like you still want high Charisma for Inspiration (I'm trying to ignore Hexblade's distant siren song...). War Caster feels important too, though with Swords Bard's "weapon as focus" ability maybe you could get away without it. I also feel Shield Master has potential with Bard's expertise (another strength over sorcerer) but it seems hard to fit in without going variant human; then again with the Shield Master clarification maybe Shove > Attack > TWF is actually a better option, offensively speaking.

On the other hand Paladin 6/Lore Bard X looks good as well. Slightly slower spell progression, but fun for the whole team with that sexy paladin aura. Cutting Words for the off-chance they beat your Expertise shoves sounds nice. Early Magical Secrets is obviously full of potential, though I can't think of what the top picks might be for the build. I haven't really thought about which Oaths fit best either.

What are your thoughts? Anyone played a build like this?

[LudicSavant]

Pal 2 / Swords 18 is a very good build, done properly.

For one thing, you're a spellcaster with 9th level spells that has an incredibly high AC. Like, "29-40 AC before magic items" high (shield + plate + defensive style + Shield (Magical Secrets) + Shield of Faith + 1d12 Flourish). And be sitting on things like Armor of Agathys, Contingency, and Foresight on top of that.

Your DPR is up there too, between having good Concentration or bonus action options and Smite/Flourish.

You also can make it CHA-SAD by picking up Shillelagh (via Magical Secrets) or by dipping Hexblade 1.

[nickl_2000]

A Bardadin doesn't compare to a Sorcadin in pure blasting and nova damage potential. However, it is much more versatile and a better support build. Bardic Inspiration gives you a consistent use of your bonus action and gives you more things you can do to help your allies. The magical secrets ability is also pretty awesome.

I would actually look at Ancients Paladin 7/Glamour Bard X. The Ancients Aura is flat out amazing, and the Mantel of Inspiration that allowed for temp HP and free movement towards you work really well with those two auras. It makes for an incredible team support build

Conquest Paladin 7/Whispers Bard X is also a great choice since whispers bard gets a fear effect and the fear spell at level 3. It's a super edgy character and can still nova damage in a pretty brutal way.

[LudicSavant]

Unfortunately though I feel like it'd be a little slow to come online. It also feels like it could be pretty hungry for ASIs since even if you shy away from save spells and the like you still want high Charisma

The way I've always preferred to do it was just maximizing Charisma and then using my other ASIs elsewhere.

Your attack stat will be fine at 16 until about mid-levels, by which point you can easily have access to solutions like...

Magical Secrets for Shillelagh spam.
A Hexblade dip (which will slow down your progression slightly but give you some good stuff like Hexblade's Curse, Shield and Armor of Agathys along with your CHA-sadness).
A Strength-replacing magic item (there are several of them, ranging from Uncommon to Legendary. Even the Uncommon one will give you a 19 Strength).

Any of those will do.

[solidork]

I played a Conquest 7/Glamour 5 bardadin for a short high level campaign and it was quite enjoyable. I managed to live the dream and use my inspiration to get everyone to move out of the AOE of my Fear spell, feared a bunch of dudes and then moved in to lock them down.

[Hytheter]

Pal 2 / Swords 18 is a very good build, done properly.

For one thing, you're a spellcaster with 9th level spells that has an incredibly high AC. Like, "29-40 AC before magic items" high (shield + plate + defensive style + Shield (Magical Secrets) + Shield of Faith + 1d12 Flourish). And be sitting on things like Armor of Agathys, Contingency, and Foresight on top of that.

For some reason I didn't even consider that you can pick up Shield with Magical Secrets. I guess I just subconciously rejected grabbing a level 1 spell as late as 12th character level, but Shield is great exactly because it holds its value so well - it's just sad that you can't get it sooner. Unless... no, that cursed blade shall not tempt me! Although as you mentioned Armor of Agathys is a good pick too...

edit: one problem with Shield is that the somatic component makes War Caster basically mandatory. Of course, War Caster is already quite good so it's probably worthwhile, but it still gives me a little pause.


Your DPR is up there too, between having good Concentration or bonus action options and Smite/Flourish.

What do you think the ideal concentration spells? You mentioned Shield of faith. Bless, Hold Person and Greater Invisibility all come to mind, though all sadly less appealing than on a sorcerer with quicken - it feels like kinds of spells might be better delegated to another party member if applicable. Or maybe I just like smiting too much for my own good. :P


You also can make it CHA-SAD by picking up Shillelagh (via Magical Secrets or Magic Initiate) or by dipping Hexblade 1.

Unfortunately Magic Initiate Shillelagh doesn't work since it would be Wis based, and Magical secrets comes a little too late for my liking in this case. Hexblade is, well... Why'd they have to make Hexblades so good? Anyway, definitely options to consider.


Conquest Paladin 7/Whispers Bard X is also a great choice since whispers bard gets a fear effect and the fear spell at level 3. It's a super edgy character and can still nova damage in a pretty brutal way.

At first I thought Words of Terror + Aura of Conquest would be absolutely hilarious since you'd just have to stand there and they'd be stuck with you for a whole hour, but sadly the damage from the aura would break it. As for Fear, by the time you get to Paladin 7 you'd only be two levels away from getting it anyway. Still, the extra spell slots are definitely nice and Psychic Blades is a nice topper for your smites.

[LudicSavant]

Unfortunately Magic Initiate Shillelagh doesn't work since it would be Wis based, and Magical secrets comes a little too late for my liking in this case. Hexblade is, well... Why'd they have to make Hexblades so good? Anyway, definitely options to consider.

Whoops, brain fart. It's just Magical Secrets, not Magic Initiate too. Fixed.

As for it coming late, consider that your ASI progression would otherwise be (Cha@4 / Cha@8 / Str@12 / Str@16). In the alternative case it would be (Cha @4 / Cha @8 / Str-Replacement@12).

So yeah. Magical Secrets, Hexblade dip, or an Uncommon+ magic item (which in a lot of campaigns shouldn't be too hard to get by level 12. Especially since social skills can help you find opportunities to purchase specific magic items, such as described in XGtE).

[Hytheter]

As for it coming late, consider that your ASI progression would otherwise be (Cha@4 / Cha@8 / Str@12 / Str@16). In the alternative case it would be (Cha @4 / Cha @8 / Str-Replacement@12).

That's true. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of getting your to-hit up early rather than prioritising Cha first, but this makes sense.

[LudicSavant]

What do you think the ideal concentration spells? You mentioned Shield of faith. Bless, Hold Person and Greater Invisibility all come to mind, though all sadly less appealing than on a sorcerer with quicken - it feels like kinds of spells might be better delegated to another party member if applicable. Or maybe I just like smiting too much for my own good. :P

Off of the Paladin list...

Bless is fantastic if you have the opportunity to pre-cast it before a fight. Shield of Faith has the advantage of being a bonus action and lasting 10x longer. Both have the advantage of being level 1 slots. Remember that AC works roughly like this (https://i.postimg.cc/MTvcMjvC/Arcane-Trickster5save-HP.png) (graph doesn't account for crits since the amount those impact the curve is monster-specific) so when you throw a +2 AC on someone who already has a very high AC, it can make them nearly untouchable by attack rolls.

Protection from Good and Evil is also a very good defensive spell. All too often it's written off as "situational" but it works on about half of the creature types in the game: aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead (while it doesn't work on humanoid, beast, plant, giant, ooze, monstrosity, construct, or dragon).

As long as you're fighting the appropriate creature types, it's a much better spell than Blur. Lower level, choosable target, 10x the duration, and adds immunity to fear/charms/possessions (e.g. a lot of the nastier effects from all of the listed creature types) in addition to giving Disadvantage to be hit (and unlike Blur, this Disadvantage can't be foiled by creatures that can see through illusions).

Off the Bard list there's stuff like Animate Objects, Hypnotic Pattern, etc.

[Corran]

I played a Conquest 7/Glamour 5 bardadin for a short high level campaign and it was quite enjoyable. I managed to live the dream and use my inspiration to get everyone to move out of the AOE of my Fear spell, feared a bunch of dudes and then moved in to lock them down.
Bards can do that?!
Smart thinking btw.

[nickl_2000]

Bards can do that?!
Smart thinking btw.

Glamour Bards are sweet, They play support in an amazing way.

[LudicSavant]

Bards can do that?!

Glamour Bards do. And hand out big bundles of temporary hit points simultaneously. Great subclass.

[Corran]

Glamour Bards are sweet, They play support in an amazing way.

Glamour Bards do. And hand out big bundles of temporary hit points simultaneously. Great subclass.
So they are. Mantle of majesty looks pretty strong too for its level. Reminds me of eyebite somewhat, though you get this one at level 6 instead of 11. I guess the catch is that it takes up your concentration and that you are left with an action, so your turns are probably command + vicious mockery? It would combo really well with any strong no-concentration no- leveled spell (because I assume that the bonus action commands still count as spellcasting even though no spell slots are consumed, right?) action option, but I don't think bards get (m)any of these, do they? Perhaps better on a gish?

ps: Can you ready a bonus action? Readying mantle of inspiration must have some promising uses.

-------------------------------

@op: My first instinct when thinking of a bard gish, is a grappler build. Because of expertise and extra attacks. Grappling (and generally forced movement), generally tends to play well with static ongoing effects, such as stinking cloud, wall of fire, etc. Grappling is also good for forcing a strong enemy you grappled at targeting only you with its attacks, so building up your defenses would also play well with a grappler build.

[Snowbluff]

Unless... no, that cursed blade shall not tempt me! Although as you mentioned Armor of Agathys is a good pick too...

I'd rather cast aid. It helps 3 people. Then again, it can be a lot of damage if you combine it with a way to reduce the damage.

I've done Paladin2/Swordsbard6. It's pretty sick. However, if you're interested in maxing out survivability, Paladin 6 is ridiculously good.

Warcaster is just worth it anyway.

[Hytheter]

I'd rather cast aid. It helps 3 people.

In fairness, you could conceivably use both. :P

[Snowbluff]

In fairness, you could conceivably use both. :P

That is true. Your idea to poach AoA gave me this idea, good sir. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?590080-Ultimate-meme-build-Agathys-Rager)

Basically combine rage with song of defense to make a max level AoA last as long as possible. :smalltongue:

[Galadhrim]

Hey all. I was wondering what everyone thinks about this multiclass combination.

The natural comparison is to sorcadins, which are a real killer MC. Bard/Paladin has some commonalities with it (namely shared Charisma dependence and full caster progression allowing for massive smiting potential) which seems like a good start, though obviously bards lack some tools like metamagic and some spells that really makes the sorcerer multiclass sing. I'm not expecting the bard build to reach the same heights, but do you think it's still good/worthwhile? What do you think good/fun builds might be, especially regarding spell selection and subclasses? What can it bring to the table that a sorcadin can't and how can you capitalise on its strengths?

Currently I'm pondering Paladin 2/Swords Bard X. Swords lets you get the best smitely spell slot progression while still getting extra attack, which is one thing that sorcerers can't do. The flourishes give a little mobility and let you pile even more dXs onto your attacks and give some other nice options on top. I'm thinking a focus on utility/support spells, while mostly relying on the martial abilities in combat. A part of me says TWF style might actually be worthwhile for this build as well to amp up the smite factor.

Unfortunately though I feel like it'd be a little slow to come online. It also feels like it could be pretty hungry for ASIs since even if you shy away from save spells and the like you still want high Charisma for Inspiration (I'm trying to ignore Hexblade's distant siren song...). War Caster feels important too, though with Swords Bard's "weapon as focus" ability maybe you could get away without it. I also feel Shield Master has potential with Bard's expertise (another strength over sorcerer) but it seems hard to fit in without going variant human; then again with the Shield Master clarification maybe Shove > Attack > TWF is actually a better option, offensively speaking.

On the other hand Paladin 6/Lore Bard X looks good as well. Slightly slower spell progression, but fun for the whole team with that sexy paladin aura. Cutting Words for the off-chance they beat your Expertise shoves sounds nice. Early Magical Secrets is obviously full of potential, though I can't think of what the top picks might be for the build. I haven't really thought about which Oaths fit best either.

What are your thoughts? Anyone played a build like this?

I'm currently playing an oath of the crown 6/lore bard 4 and have really enjoyed the character. He is built as a protector/leader character.

I took shield master and expertise in athletics and persuasion (we do play with the old ruling that you can shield bash before your attack). For magical secrets I plan on taking spirit guardians as it will be even better in my upcastable slots. Second secret I'm not sure on yet but I have time. What I concentrate on depends on the combat. Sometimes fairie fire as a mark for three other dps (sharp shooter rogue and gwm EK), sometimes heat metal if there is one big baddie or wrathful smite if they aren't wearing metal.

[dgnslyr]

The thing that makes Sorcadin so powerful, I think, is that it takes one of the strengths of both Paladins and Sorcerers - dealing huge burst damage - and doubles down on it hard, since it's hard to beat a Sorcadin when it comes to pure burst damage. On the other hand, nabbing Paladin 2 as a bard is more like an alternative to Hexblade 1, since it covers your weaknesses instead of improving one of your strengths. Functionally, they hedge your character in fairly similar ways.

In that regard, I actually like Paladin 2 a bit more than Hexblade 1 - if you're investing in strength anyways to wear heavy armor, then you don't need Hex Warrior to improve your melee attack rolls. The effectiveness of Hex Warrior is as good as the difference between your CHA and your normal combat stat, but if you aim to start the game with 16 STR, 16 CHA, then that bonus is at worst +0 and at best +2 once you get ASIs, which are a long time coming.

I think Paladin 2/Bard 18 is a good split, and as always I'd still recommend College of Lore, because those extra magical secrets early on are too good to pass. This gets you heavy armor and shield proficiency as well as some bite in melee, at the cost of 1 total caster level. It'll be slower going at first, but even with an early setback, bards will still bard, and Inspiration doesn't really care what level you are. Overall, it's a "fair" multiclass in the sense that it covers your weaknesses at the expense of your strengths, while Sorcadin is strong because it specializes at one thing at the expense of others. As a character concept, it works really well for an inspiring, knightly commander character - a war-horn is a pretty natural fit for a frontline captain character, after all. I wouldn't even feel the need to reconcile having two different classes on your character sheet, since they both work towards the same thematic concept of an inspiring battlefield leader.

[LudicSavant]

That is true. Your idea to poach AoA gave me this idea, good sir. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?590080-Ultimate-meme-build-Agathys-Rager)

Hey! Poaching AoA was my idea :smalltongue:

Anyways, I'm glad you found it useful anywho.

[DevilMcam]

I actually really like this MC and would like to try it for my next game

Start with paladin 2 and go bard all the way then.

At level 1 and 2 you are a paladin : Awesome

level 3 you are Mostly a paladin with bardic inspiration as your "channel divinity" and bard spells as oath spells

Level 4 you lose on your ASI for jack of all trade, song of rest and extra spell slot

level 5 taking sword college : TWF act as a (sligtly less good) extra attack for now. you get flourishes and bard lvl 2 slots flourish means TWF does not compete with bardic inspirationa nymore, also expertise

Level 6 : ASI YAY

Level 7 : lvl 3 spells and short rest inspiration

level 8 : Propper extra attack and 4th level smite

Level 9 okay that one is a bit sad, just extra spells

level 10 : ASI and 5th level slot

level 11 : another "slow" level

level 12 : magical secrets babies : find greater steed and haste for the awesomeness

....

level 16 : free flourishes = almost resourceless 30 AC (18 from plate + 1 from fighting style + 2 frome haste + average 10.5 from 3D6 flourishes)

[Mitsu]

If you want to play Blaster I had a lot of fun with 1 Hexblade/2 Paladin/6 Sword Bard build. SAD CHA, Bonus Action Curse.

It works wonders with Elven Accuracy but I preferred Vuman to get War Caster + 18 CHA as fast as possible.

First grab Hexblade (one of the strongest 1st level class) + War Caster. Then level 6 Sword Bard for extra attack (till then, rely on GFB and BB OAs). Then 2 Levels of Paladin for Smites.

In the end it comes online late but all Paladin multiclass builds come online late. But they are super strong.

At level 13 my Magic Secrets would be Shadow of Moil and probably Conjure Animals or Counter Spell.

The other variant is 6 Paladin/14 Bard but imo it's just worse Sorcadin and I would prefer to make Sorcadin at that point. I think Pala/Bards work best with 2 level dips for Smites.

[Sception]

Paladin/bard is good in almost any combination. Mostly bard dipping a couple pally levels has already been mentioned, but mostly pally that picks up just a few levels of bard for slightly accelerated slot progression, a couple cantrips for expanded at will utility, and an excellant bonus action support option in bardic inspiration also works really well.

[LudicSavant]

level 16 : free flourishes = almost resourceless 30 AC (18 from plate + 1 from fighting style + 2 frome haste + average 10.5 from 3D6 flourishes)

You can only flourish 1/turn, so no 3d6 flourishes. That said you can indeed get a resource-efficient 29-40 AC as a Palabard (via 18 plate / +1 fighting style / +2 shield / +2 Shield of Faith / +5 Shield / +1d12 flourish).

You have enough resources to do this all day at high levels. And since you actually get 9th level spells and can pick things off the best spell lists, you can totally get things like Contingency, Simulacrum, and Foresight on top of that.

Note that unlike a Bardadin, Sorcadins can't get stuff like Contingency or Simulacrum on their spell list.

[Willie the Duck]

My group pretty much considers sorcadins, coffeelocks, or hexblade-dipping paladins to be cheap, cheezy, and overall the wrong emphasis for our games. So Bard/Paladin (or Bard/anything, really) is our go-to Cha-based Multiclass. OP is correct in that it doesn't have the inherent synergy of the other ones (that's kinda the point) and there will always be more things you want to do with your ASIs than you will have ASIs to do them with. The whole 'can't have everything, figure out what you want' bit is part of the fun for us.

[MagneticKitty]

Dual lance holy crusader minimum level 12

Stats: charisma, str at least 16 or so
Feats: dual weilder, mounted combatant
Paladin fighting style defense
Swords bard: dual weilding fighting style
Magic secrets: find greater steed
Wears heavy armor.

Dual weilder let's you dual weild non light and lances are one handed when mounted. They also are not considered "heavy".
you can now dual weild lances on the back of a pegasus. Hitting 3 times a turn with a 1d10 weapon and applying smites as desired.

[DevilMcam]

The flourish entry of xanathar's reads "you can only use one TYPE of flourish per turn" not "one flourish".
So unless this has been erated you can use 2 (or 3 with haste) à turn.

Also Your AC can only go up to 30

[LudicSavant]

The flourish entry of xanathar's reads "you can only use one TYPE of flourish per turn" not "one flourish".

What it actually says is:

Whenever you take the Attack action on your turn, your walking speed increases by 10 feet until the end of the turn, and if a weapon attack that you make as part of this action hits a creature, you can use one of the following Blade Flourish options of your choice. You can use only one Blade Flourish option per turn.

It's not saying "you can use each option once" or "you can use one option, multiple times." It's saying you get to pick one Flourish to use, per turn. You can't add 3d6 or 3d12 to your AC.

This is further confirmed in Sage Advice: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/04/18/if-a-college-of-swords-bard-has-extra-attack-can-they-use-the-same-blade-flourish-option-for-each-attack-that-hits/

[DevilMcam]

Oh Thanks for correcting that, I was away from the books and never saw that sage advice

[LudicSavant]

Oh Thanks for correcting that, I was away from the books and never saw that sage advice

NP http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

[Haydensan]

I know a couple of people have mentioned it already but having Find Greater Steed earlier than normally possible can only really be understated at how amazing it is. Also it's a really cool image.

On that note, you can really pick some unique things you can do with your magical secrets so (as ever when theory crafting a bard) the magical secrets are the main points to look at.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I'm building towards this myself in a near-even split at Paladin 11/Bard 9. I went Oath of Ancients and I'm planning on going College of Glamour. I knew going into it that I wouldn't get the same sort of ridiculous burst potential as I would going Hexblade or Sorcerer, but I like the higher levels of utility and team support. And Paladin, much as I adore the class, doesn't have much going for it post-11.

Paladin 2/Sword Bard X is an excellent bard variant, as everyone's mentioned, but it's gonna feel like crap if you have to start at level 1 and/or you don't spend much or any time above level 8 (this includes a lot of modules). I'd stick to a pure paladin over that any day.

[Corran]

Paladin 2/Sword Bard X is an excellent bard variant, as everyone's mentioned
People like their extra damage dice. If you really think about it though, 2 levels for smite is too big of a cost. Especially when everything else you get screams to stay at a safe distance from the enemy and maintain consciousness and whatever spell you are concentrating on.

Edit: Though I admit that I would be interested in giving a 16(?) level such build a go, for that fight where I would use tenser's transformation (warcaster) and smites.

[Snowbluff]

People like their extra damage dice. If you really think about it though, 2 levels for smite is too big of a cost. Especially when everything else you get screams to stay at a safe distance from the enemy and maintain consciousness and whatever spell you are concentrating on.

Edit: Though I admit that I would be interested in giving a 16(?) level such build a go, for that fight where I would use tenser's transformation (warcaster) and smites.

I mean, it gives you heavy armor (and shields, if you're swords, I don't rightly remember). You can land some big crits this way, and be tougher than your standard melee bard, and it all stacks with defensive flourish.

[Waterdeep Merch]

People like their extra damage dice. If you really think about it though, 2 levels for smite is too big of a cost. Especially when everything else you get screams to stay at a safe distance from the enemy and maintain consciousness and whatever spell you are concentrating on.

Edit: Though I admit that I would be interested in giving a 16(?) level such build a go, for that fight where I would use tenser's transformation (warcaster) and smites.
It's not just smite- heavy armor and shields are a big draw all by themselves, letting you safely ignore Dexterity while maintaining the highest possible AC. That first level is almost equivalent to taking a dip in Fighter, and for the same reasons. The Fighting Style's another great perk, and I'd be tempted to take Defense for exactly the issue you mentioned.

This 100% needs Warcaster, though, even if you don't take a shield. And it really wants Shield Master, PAM, or GWM. You'll end up extremely ASI starved no matter what you do.

That's a major part of why I don't see this as viable if your game will be almost entirely in the low levels. Until you get Extra Attack your offense will suffer, your Bard spells are delayed by two full levels, and you really, really need ASI's to smooth out your wrinkles. If that's the case, I'd just stick to Paladin or Bard.

[LudicSavant]

It's not just smite- heavy armor and shields are a big draw all by themselves, letting you safely ignore Dexterity while maintaining the highest possible AC. That first level is almost equivalent to taking a dip in Fighter, and for the same reasons. The Fighting Style's another great perk, and I'd be tempted to take Defense for exactly the issue you mentioned.

This 100% needs Warcaster, though, even if you don't take a shield. And it really wants Shield Master, PAM, or GWM. You'll end up extremely ASI starved no matter what you do.

That's a major part of why I don't see this as viable if your game will be almost entirely in the low levels. Until you get Extra Attack your offense will suffer, your Bard spells are delayed by two full levels, and you really, really need ASI's to smooth out your wrinkles. If that's the case, I'd just stick to Paladin or Bard.

I don’t see why you’re so concerned about SM/PAM/GWM. You can get great reactions and bonus actions without them, and GWM isn’t a big DPR improvement for Pal2/BardX builds (it’s basically the same principle for why GWM isn’t as good for Paladins as it is for fighters, but amplified by access to higher level spells)

[Waterdeep Merch]

I don’t see why you’re so concerned about SM/PAM/GWM. You can get great reactions and bonus actions without them, and GWM isn’t a big DPR improvement for Pal2/BardX builds (it’s basically the same principle for why GWM isn’t as good for Paladins as it is for fighters, but amplified by access to higher level spells)

I'd be more interested in SM, due to this particular build's penchant for damage mitigation and an innate weakness to Dexterity saves. The shield shove is a nice bonus when you've got the opportunity, which I'd guess happens a lot more if you went Sword Bard since you're more likely to spend your BI on your flourishes. I'd assume GWM if going with a two-hander simply because there's not much other benefit to even using a two-hander, really. If you care about damage but don't want the feat, the Dueling Fighting Style is only behind by an average of 3.2666 (after factoring in Extra Attack but NOT factoring in hit chance). You can use spells with somatic and material components without War Caster, I guess, but you'll want that anyway for maintaining concentration.

PAM is contentious in that you're perfectly fine not using it thanks to the improved range offering it's own benefit, though I'd argue it's more useful overall than GWM (gives a very common scenario for using your reaction to attack, adds a bonus action regardless of if you crit/killed something first). Still, if you only took a polearm to play keep away and put off grabbing War Caster until later, you can safely skip it.

[Corran]

I mean, it gives you heavy armor (and shields, if you're swords, I don't rightly remember). You can land some big crits this way, and be tougher than your standard melee bard, and it all stacks with defensive flourish.

It's not just smite- heavy armor and shields are a big draw all by themselves, letting you safely ignore Dexterity while maintaining the highest possible AC. That first level is almost equivalent to taking a dip in Fighter, and for the same reasons. The Fighting Style's another great perk, and I'd be tempted to take Defense for exactly the issue you mentioned.
Agreed. You also get better starting save proficiencies, 10 points of lay on hands (mostly for out of combat, but also good for bringing back up a fallen ally if you can get next to them, or from say, removing poison from your rogue during combat), and you end up with one extra hit point and two improved hit dice. Plus divine sense, which has its uses. You can get most of these things in other ways too, if you really want to. Namely by taking 1-2 levels in either hexblade or fighter. The reason to go with 2 paladin levels instead (strictly from looking at mechanics), is because you prefer smite over action surge/ EB/ delaying your bard progression by one less level. Divine smite is a melee ability. And the way I see it, a bard would require a lot of investment to make sense playing one that tries to get close to the enemies instead of trying to keep their distance. That said, I haven't really looked at the college of swords, so if for a swords bard can stand well enough in melee, then maybe that's what I am missing?


This 100% needs Warcaster, though, even if you don't take a shield. And it really wants Shield Master, PAM, or GWM. You'll end up extremely ASI starved no matter what you do.
Not sure about SM, PAM and GWM myself (SM can profit from expertise so that's nice for sure). If we are talking about the TT + smite battle, I'd probably want to dual wield for maximum damage/nova. Otherwise, I'd probably look at sth like resilient con or mobile so that I can melee while protecting better my hp and concentration. Maybe resilient and instead of mobile look at some teleports like misty step or far step?


That's a major part of why I don't see this as viable if your game will be almost entirely in the low levels. Until you get Extra Attack your offense will suffer, your Bard spells are delayed by two full levels, and you really, really need ASI's to smooth out your wrinkles. If that's the case, I'd just stick to Paladin or Bard.
This is purely a hypothesis, but I am thinking that there is going to be a problem at the higher levels too. Where I will probably have the right spells to make a real difference in a fight, in which case why would I want to go head to head against big brutes at the risk of having my spell effect end? Divine smite works at melee, big spells prompt you to keep your distance. That's my conundrum here. I see more conflict than synergy. And a two level dip for what might essentially end up being one of the ways to deal with foes that corner you, seems like a very big cost.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Agreed. You also get better starting save proficiencies, 10 points of lay on hands (mostly for out of combat, but also good for bringing back up a fallen ally if you can get next to them, or from say, removing poison from your rogue during combat), and you end up with one extra hit point and two improved hit dice. Plus divine sense, which has its uses. You can get most of these things in other ways too, if you really want to. Namely by taking 1-2 levels in either hexblade or fighter. The reason to go with 2 paladin levels instead (strictly from looking at mechanics), is because you prefer smite over action surge/ EB/ delaying your bard progression by one less level. Divine smite is a melee ability. And the way I see it, a bard would require a lot of investment to make sense playing one that tries to get close to the enemies instead of trying to keep their distance. That said, I haven't really looked at the college of swords, so if for a swords bard can stand well enough in melee, then maybe that's what I am missing?
College of Swords is a little overrated since blowing all your BI dice just to deal the sort of damage any barbarian/fighter could is just not a great deal, but it finds a niche if you can buoy it with another damage source. A paladin's smite nets you that. It also lets you use your weapon as a casting implement, which is extremely vital since you can't get War Caster until level 6 at the earliest (unless Variant Human, of course) and probably want more STR/CHA first regardless. It can also net you the Dueling Fighting Style, which combos extremely well with a sword and board build. You can get two-weapon fighting as well, which...


Not sure about SM, PAM and GWM myself (SM can profit from expertise so that's nice for sure). If we are talking about the TT + smite battle, I'd probably want to dual wield for maximum damage/nova. Otherwise, I'd probably look at sth like resilient con or mobile so that I can melee while protecting better my hp and concentration. Maybe resilient and instead of mobile look at some teleports like misty step or far step?
Full disclosure, I'm playing a dual-wielding paladin with mobile right now myself. It's extraordinarily good, and thanks to Oath of Ancients, I'm also playing with misty step. It's exactly as good as you've reasoned. I outpunish a 22 Dex SS gloomstalker and a 20 Str GWM Zealot Barbarian under most circumstances.

But I've got a lot of unique circumstances riding into it that makes it impossible for me to suss out how much of that is due to the paladin class actually being great at dual-wielding and how much is thanks to the house rules I'm currently under. I'm way too biased to say one way or another here without trying this same thing again under something closer to RAW.


This is purely a hypothesis, but I am thinking that there is going to be a problem at the higher levels too. Where I will probably have the right spells to make a real difference in a fight, in which case why would I want to go head to head against big brutes at the risk of having my spell effect end? Divine smite works at melee, big spells prompt you to keep your distance. That's my conundrum here. I see more conflict than synergy. And a two level dip for what might essentially end up being one of the ways to deal with foes that corner you, seems like a very big cost.

I don't disagree. Bard grants higher spell slots and some great buffs, but everything else about the class is completely non-synergistic with a paladin's usual role. That's part of what I like about it, though- if you feel confident that better smites are enough, you can take levels in bard to take on a kind of second aspect. Suddenly you can switch from a paladin's straightforward smiting style of combat into a support/healing role and you can be amazing at out of combat utility. It's somewhere between hard and impossible to do both at once, but it's neat that you can turn on a dime as needed.