3.5 Core Rulebook only best tank build

[Stryyke]

So I'm part of a low optimization, core rulebook only, RP centered game. I have a character in another game with this DM that is magic focused, but I'd like to build a melee focused build. The DM is pretty brutal, and we come within a breath from TPK every few weeks, and I was wondering if there was an uber-tank build that is feasible with the core rulebook only. The character would enter the game at lvl 4.

As a magic focused player, I'm not familiar with the best game mechanics to utilize for tanking. What combat maneuvers should I focus on? Which feats? Are any skills necessary for combat purposes, or can I use them for purely RPG purposes?

[Silva Stormrage]

Tanking in general is kinda hard to do in 3.5 due to no "Aggro" mechanic existing. If you are super hard to kill enemies will just ignore you and attack the squishy casters. Playing melee makes it even harder.

The best melee "Tank" build would probably be a spiked chain tripper. The traditional core spiked chain tripper build would be the Horizion Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)).

Tripping and preventing opponents from moving and can protect your backline from melee due to this but if your DM sends a lot of casters at you this option becomes a lot less effective.

Sometimes the best option against casters with a melee build is to ready an action to attack them if they cast a spell. With a spiked chain they can't even 5ft step away and your attack if it lands will very likely disrupt their spell.

[Eldariel]

The best tank is typically the Druid since it has an animal companion that's 100 % replaceable, it can summon 100 % replaceable underlings spontaneously (Summon Nature's Ally is very good) and it can turn into a not-replaceable-but-very-durable big thing. Combat maneuvers come naturally; many companions, summons and wildshape forms are good at Grappling or Tripping in particular.

Tripping is generally the best control-based combat maneuver, because it works against most things, doesn't remove you from combat (Grapple does, but if your underlings are doing grapple or there are only few enemies, it's perfectly okay), and you can trip multiple opponents in a round. Actually, Druid wielding Spiked Chain is a perfectly reasonable Tripper too: on level 8 you can turn into a Dire Ape, which has pretty good physical stats for this kind of thing. Until then, you can use your Human form to this end just fine if you invest in Str (Druids generally have points leftover since all they need is Wis and maybe some Con/Int if they feel so inclined) and wield it without Wildshaping. Though if you don't have the stats, there are some decent control forms on level 5 too; Black Bear has Improved Grapple as does Leopard (overall, Leopard is probably the better of these two forms). Deinonychus Dinosaur doesn't have combat maneuvers, but pretty decent stats overall (and arguably it's a biped; could ask if it can wield weapons according to your DM, 'cause if it can, it makes for a great control form).

Either way, it's not very important in the grand scheme of things: your animal companion and summons should generally provide all the tanking you can ever need without the risk of character death. Of course, another similar issue would be playing a Necromancer Cleric: you'd get Animate Dead on level 5 and you already have Rebuke Undead so just Command some convenient high Str enemies and go from there.


If you want to play a riskier, less powerful mundane character, the mentioned Horizon Tripper is always fine. It takes the best parts of the Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger and then the Horizon Walker in the DMG. Alternatively, Barbarian/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple gets pretty decent stats. But to be clear, Core-only gives all the tools to spellcasters and none to martials. It's not very hard to build a Druid with all the core competencies of the Barbarian while also having an animal companion, 9th level spellcasting and company.

[emeraldstreak]

Lvl 4 tanks for difficult games usually start with Polymorph Any Object bought as a spellcasting service (at extra high CL) in order to boost reach and natural armor.

[Eldariel]

Lvl 4 tanks for difficult games usually start with Polymorph Any Object bought as a spellcasting service (at extra high CL) in order to boost reach and natural armor.

Or 2-to-N PAOs when you're running a minionmancing class as you should in high difficult settings.

[gooddragon1]

So I'm part of a low optimization, core rulebook only, RP centered game. I have a character in another game with this DM that is magic focused, but I'd like to build a melee focused build. The DM is pretty brutal, and we come within a breath from TPK every few weeks, and I was wondering if there was an uber-tank build that is feasible with the core rulebook only. The character would enter the game at lvl 4.

As a magic focused player, I'm not familiar with the best game mechanics to utilize for tanking. What combat maneuvers should I focus on? Which feats? Are any skills necessary for combat purposes, or can I use them for purely RPG purposes?


Also nominating the druid. He's like the fishymancer (a necromancer build in diablo 2 known for trivializing the game) of 3.5.

This fascination of some dm's with being brutal is not a good idea in my opinion. It's just going to make people climb the tier tree and they're going to end up with a party of tier 1 characters all the time. Or the player's might stop playing.

[Gnaeus]

Other than Druid and horizon tripper, honorable mention goes to cleric. You wear the same heavy armor as the fighter, but starting at level 5 you can use long duration buffs (Magic vestments on armor and shield, magic circle v evil) for better AC. Greater magic weapon makes up for lost BAB. Your saves are better than the fighter. You can significantly outrank the fighter by level 5 (with undead minions). You have ways around common fighter problems (things you can’t see, reach, hit, etc). Again, it’s sad but the T1s do melee better than the melee, even in core. Maybe especially in core.

[Anthrowhale]

Lvl 4 tanks for difficult games usually start with Polymorph Any Object bought as a spellcasting service (at extra high CL) in order to boost reach and natural armor.

It looks like Annis Hag (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hag.htm#annis) is compatible with Horizon Tripper.

If you are a Tiefling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling), then Horned Devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon) is significantly better.

[Troacctid]

I would lean towards cleric. They have better defensive stats and self-buffs than the druid, and their healing abilities help to soak up more damage.

My instinct is to worship Hextor and go for a flail-and-shield tripper build with War and Destruction domains. Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes. Buff up with spells, run into melee, use Combat Expertise with your trip attacks to boost your AC (it's a touch attack, so the penalty is NBD). If they try to disengage, use attacks of opportunity to trip them. If not, you can pivot to offense with spontaneous inflicting (and/or a spell-storing weapon), and if they deal any decent damage to you, you can heal yourself back up with prepared cure spells and frustrate the heck out of them. Keep in mind that if you happen to hold the charge on a touch spell, you can use a trip attempt to discharge it. And since your god is Lawful Evil, animate dead is an option, allowing you to generate expendable meatshields to clog up the battlefield even more. At higher levels, you can start preparing righteous might to really go to town.

Either dwarf, deep dwarf, or human is fine for your race.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dwarf, Cleric or Druid.

A Druid can carry a wooden tower shield, despite not being proficient, and wear hide armor. Have a war-trained riding dog for your animal companion with masterwork studded leather barding. Buff the dog and cast crowd control spells otherwise. Just avoid anything that involves your character making an attack roll, since you'll take the shield's armor check penalty to those for not being proficient.

Cleric can wear heavy armor and carry a heavy shield. Take the Travel and Sun domains, buff with Longstrider and Shield of Faith. Use Heat Metal on a physically strong opponent's weapon, which should cause them to drop it (if not, argue that this worked on Aragorn in Fangorn Forest).

[Sian]

Tank is rather difficult to pull off, as there aren't really any (good) type of threat/aggro implemented in the game, even if you're allowing all splat. The only classes that have anything remotely related to it (in terms of "attack me instead of the dress-wearing magic-flinger behind me") would be Knight and Crusader, with an honourable mention to Devoted Defender/Maqaur Crusader and the Constant Guardian->Dutiful Guardian Feat-line.

Of cause, if you expand it a bit further (into "you can't attack anyone but me") Dragonfire Adapt focusing on debuffing breaths (for which DC's only make it stick for shorter time), Spiked-Chain shenanigans and possibly Binder and Swordsage might also be able to pull of something that's 'close enough'

[RNightstalker]

When you say Core Rulebooks you mean...? I've noticed that means different things to different people.

The first thought that comes to mind when someone says tank is a lot of tanks through the Leadership feat; if the DM will allow that. Why charge by yourself when you can charge with 3 cohorts and 15 followers?

[gooddragon1]

Tank is rather difficult to pull off, as there aren't really any (good) type of threat/aggro implemented in the game, even if you're allowing all splat. The only classes that have anything remotely related to it (in terms of "attack me instead of the dress-wearing magic-flinger behind me") would be Knight and Crusader, with an honourable mention to Devoted Defender/Maqaur Crusader and the Constant Guardian->Dutiful Guardian Feat-line.

Of cause, if you expand it a bit further (into "you can't attack anyone but me") Dragonfire Adapt focusing on debuffing breaths (for which DC's only make it stick for shorter time), Spiked-Chain shenanigans and possibly Binder and Swordsage might also be able to pull of something that's 'close enough'

You might be able to do it in a backwards way at higher levels.

1> Summon stuff as druid
2> Buff summons to relevance as needed
3> Use heal spells on allies while summons do the damage

If your summons are attacked, then that's damage not going to allies.
If your allies are attacked and you heal them then they are tanking.
If you are attacked and you heal yourself then you are tanking.

[Troacctid]

You shouldn't underestimate the power of simply standing in between your buddies and the bad guys. There's a huge swath of enemies whose only tactic in combat is to attack whoever is closest. Even for smarter enemies, they might spend at least a round or two bouncing off you before they figure out you're all shield and no sword. And if they switch to a squishier target, that's when you teach them why people say to kill the healer first.

[bean illus]

Cleric. For all the reasons. A druid might tax your dm's balance, so check with him, but i would cleric


You shouldn't underestimate the power of simply standing in between your buddies and the bad guys. There's a huge swath of enemies whose only tactic in combat is to attack whoever is closest. ... ... . And if they switch to a squishier target, that's when you teach them why people say to kill the healer first.

Dwarf cleric tripper? Travel domain for certain. Then consider destruction, strength (for access to enlarge person, for tanking), or protection, or magic.

One way to add tank is with the spell Shield Other. Another is the spell Spiritual Weapon.

To trip effectively you'll want strength and size. If you were planning melee tank perhaps there's another dedicated cleric? If so, you could drop your starting wisdom to 14, and pump your strength and dex (which you'll need for combat reflexes).

16, 14, 14 - 12, 14, 8 ... 32 point buy
16, 14, 16 - 12, 14, 6 ... dwarf (all + to wis)

Feats
Combat expertise
Improved trip
Combat reflexes
Exotic weapon spiked chain

Or, go human and have that at 6th level (with less hp, etc)

Dragon disciple somewhere after 7th level sounds cool, maybe. It would take shenanigans, but could be done.

[Stryyke]

What about making a character with a super low AC, but so many HP that they can essentially last forever? Would that be feasible? The low AC so that the enemy think I'm squishy. Is there maybe a spell or a series of skills that can draw attention? Maybe an AoO build?

As for sources, PHB only.

[gooddragon1]

What about making a character with a super low AC, but so many HP that they can essentially last forever? Would that be feasible? The low AC so that the enemy think I'm squishy. Is there maybe a spell or a series of skills that can draw attention? Maybe an AoO build?

As for sources, PHB only.

If your DM is nearing tpks as described I don't think so. Power attacks will do more damage to your character because they won't need as high a bonus to hit. The damage output of even monsters with lower level might be too much. I could be wrong though.

[Eldariel]

What about making a character with a super low AC, but so many HP that they can essentially last forever? Would that be feasible? The low AC so that the enemy think I'm squishy. Is there maybe a spell or a series of skills that can draw attention? Maybe an AoO build?

As for sources, PHB only.

Drawing attention...well, not as such but stuff like Suggestion obviously allows you to suggest that the enemy attack you. Confusion also has an option where they attack the caster (otherwise they babble or bash each other). Command has a similar option in Approach. However, how are the enemy to know that your AC is low? It's a bit tricky to convey stuff like that; perhaps you could use Bluff to that effect or something. Cleric is probably your best bet to this end, with a number of useful spells, Domain access to other spells and ways to make yourself durable in spite of taking hits.

Shield Other with some underlings is a good spell to essentially halve the incoming damage (Imbue with Spell Ability can be used to make it so an ally of any sort casts it on you) and obviously Cleric heals and such work to this end. Two Shield Others would (potentially) help though they'd probably fall prey of the overlap rules. Sadly most of the stuff that would be nice for a character like this (Starmantle, sources of DR, tec.) is outside Core though, so you'd have to make a diet version with only so much durability to spare. Cleric has a bit of a problem producing intelligent underlings to this end; Planar Ally works but you generally have to pay a fair bit for it, which makes it unsustainable in the long run. Animate Dead would be ideal, but there's no means of making them intelligent in Core. Rebuke Undead (the "Command"-variant) is probably your best bet frankly; you can Create Undead to produce them and then use Rebuke Undead to command them. Alternatively, with Trickery-domain, you eventually get Polymorph Any Object which you can apply to your Animated Dead or Animated Objects to turn them intelligent.

And yeah, having some degree of damage reduction would also be nice. Stoneskin is in Strength and Earth domains, so though expensive, it's something to consider. Earth domain would give you an additional Rebuke pool for Earth creatures (Earth Elementals are a great source of tankiness for instance), which doesn't hurt either. You could even control them as a good Cleric. Though of course, it's harder to find Earth Elementals than it is to produce Undead.


You could toss AoO build on top of that: the usual, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Enlarge Person (or similar), etc.

[emeraldstreak]

What about making a character with a super low AC, but so many HP that they can essentially last forever? Would that be feasible? The low AC so that the enemy think I'm squishy. Is there maybe a spell or a series of skills that can draw attention? Maybe an AoO build?

As for sources, PHB only.

There are ways to build characters with lots of hp, but they aren't core. Also, unlike AC and DR tanking, hp tanking also requires hp recovery method too - at the amount you'd be losing wands aren't optimal.

High DR or high AC tanking is preferable (there are some arcane ways attainable fairly early like damage immunity, but they are also too OP for regular campaigns).

[noob]

depending on level and amount of optimisation the best tank is either a druid, a cleric(if the optimisation allotment is too low for allowing a druid at all) or a wizard(in some high level cases with simulacrum and stuff like that)

[bean illus]

What about making a character with a super low AC, but so many HP that they can essentially last forever? Would ..

I'm just asking, but, do you know the spell Shield Other?