Challenge for lvl 20'?

[Pinjata]

What is a proper BBEG/race opponent for lvl 20 characters?

What is a nonretarded goal of mentioned opponent?

Setting:Faerun, but not limited to

[ImproperJustice]

Tiamat is coming to visit because Faerun has the best funnel cakes.

Seriously though, that is a tough question.

The general contenders are gonna be magic users,
liches, and dragons.
Generally supported by a massive worldwide organization of followers.

Level 20 characters are epic level super heroes.
So what makes it worth their time to descend to Earth and save the day?

It needs to be a worldwide or multi-dimensional threat, and the enemy is going to avoid all out confrontation or use proxy villains for the heroes to smash while their real plans unravel in the shadows until it’s almost too late and the heroes have to stand at the precipice to atop the apocalypse.

[Sigreid]

I think one of the best would be a king threatened by their power. They aren't up against a person but a kingdom, with all the underhanded resources that come with it.

[darknite]

I just ran a session last week vs a party of five 17-20th level PCs with an ending battle that featured...

1 x Lich (in lair)
1 x Drow Matron Mother
1 x Retriever
6 x Champions
4 x Bodaks
4 x Death Slaad

All foes set with 90% max HP. There were several pre-cast spells in place as the Lich knew the party was coming. The Lich started with Invulnerability cast along with a Contingency to cast Blink if he involuntarily lost concentration on a spell (both of these were blasted off him with a Dispel Magic cast outside Counterspell range). He was also standing in a circumscribed area protected by a Glyph of Warding -> Force Cage that would trigger if anyone entered without his invitation (Monk Trap). The Monk didn't fall for it but a Bladesinger did, though they successfully Misty Stepped out.

All said and done the PCs took this down in 7-10 turns and had one character die (was reviv'd). They had a good time, though. I'm running again soon and will amp up the encounter.

[loki_ragnarock]

Here's my slow walked proposal:

While your characters were busy doing whatever it was that got them to 20th level, another group of adventurers failed in preventing the Underdark from turning into an Abyssal Cyst, and now a bunch of Demon Lords have popped out and started undermining Faerun's foundations and sucking everything into the Abyss. Rather than turning on each other, they've each gone in a separate direction to spread the Cyst further into foundations of the world

Every creature that has inhabited the Underdark is now pushing to the surface in a mass exodus of beings willing to eat through each other to get away from the calamity. The many societies of the surface are unprepared for the weight of these invasive refugees. Famine spreads, kingdoms fall, cities burn.

Now the forces of Hell have been summoned by a cabal of 1,000 of liches that have basically been minding their business for the past few thousand years, all of which had come to the conclusion that the only chance to combat the forces of the Abyss is to open up the world to Hell itself. Dukes and Arch-Dukes and their proxies flood through. More kingdoms fall. More famine. More ruined cities as the world turns against itself. For these are the end of times, and the world is truly doomed. Unless a quintet (quartet, trio, however many) of recently freed up pseudo-demigods that are the level 20 party can tilt the scales.


The PCs job? Find and eliminate each Demon Prince - some of whom may have allied in the face or Hellish opposition - to prevent the spreading of the cyst, then immediately defeat the opposing Arch-Duke and their retinue to prevent Hell from slipping in where the Abyss has been now contained. Meanwhile, every other high level NPC of note is tracking down and eliminating this secret cabal of mystery liches, ensuring they will have no back up. They have 5 days to pull this off; any more and the cyst will have expanded too far to repair as Faerun is subsumed into the Abyss or Avernus, depending on whether the area is dominated by Hellish or Abyssal forces.


It culminates in Tiamat using the struggle to free herself from her prison in Avernus as she crashes through the surface of Faerun, because that's what every dragon has been focused on for the last few days. Whoops. Forgot about the dragons, but now they have to deal with that. But simultaneously waddling into view is a Tarrasque howdah carrying the remaining liches of the cabal, now sans phylacteries because of the efforts of every other now dead high level NPC. They're looking for materials to make their new phylacteries in the wreckage that remains, and it turns out the PCs have just what they need to rebuild them before fading back into the shadows for the next world scale cluster bomb that would validate their doomsday ideology, seeing as how the tearing of the world between two planes has been averted.
They have 5 rounds to deal with Tiamat before the Tarrasque Lich Howdah arrives.
If the PCs survive, they graduate to a new edition of D&D.


Is it gonzo? Hell yeah.

[Hypersmith]

Something they can't solve by chucking their class features at. Like someone else mentioned, a kingdom that doesn't like you. What are you gonna do, kill everyone in it?

The challenges at that level are less about a straight up conflict, far more about overcoming an issue vast swathes of people fear. Incomplete information, lies, manipulation.

Of course, it's cool to culminate in gigantic fights with tough enemies. In which case, feel free to make enemies smart. Hit and run, blind the PCs, gang up on them with others to pull out some really nasty tricks. Be less afraid of killing them

[Rukelnikov]

Something they can't solve by chucking their class features at. Like someone else mentioned, a kingdom that doesn't like you. What are you gonna do, kill everyone in it?

The challenges at that level are less about a straight up conflict, far more about overcoming an issue vast swathes of people fear. Incomplete information, lies, manipulation.

One up that by making it YOUR kingdom that doesnt like you

[Pinjata]

So far I love loki_ragnarocks's idea the most. Sounds like something, that could be edited into a module.

[Hail Tempus]

Whatever you do, avoid falling into the trap of having the party engage in just one big battle a day. Even with an extremely deadly encounter, a level 20 party is going to have a significant advantage because they can just start with their most powerful abilities/spells and work down from there.

The PC power curve gets pretty skewed at higher levels, so you have to make the party burn resources through several encounters, even more so than you might have done at lower levels.

[GreyBlack]

What is a proper BBEG/race opponent for lvl 20 characters?

What is a nonretarded goal of mentioned opponent?

Setting:Faerun, but not limited to

Step 1: you're thinking too small.

By level 20, the PC's aren't fighting in Faerun. They're traipsing across the planes at the behest of various divinities. An appropriate BBEG for level 20 should be a demigod or other divine agent of some sort.