Astral Traveler - Does it leave your body behind?

[Segev]

Astral traveler (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/a/astral-traveler/) is a generally weak and poor choice of power for anybody to pick up, unless there is a LOT of planar travel and the Nomad in the party wants to take everyone along as low as 5th level. Even then, it's a power known tax, not really anything useful on its own.

But it gets weirder. It talks about "leaving the Prime behind," but then mentions being connected by "a silvery cord." It makes absolutely no mention of any body being left behind, and while it talks about the fact that very few creatures can damage a silver cord, it doesn't go into any details as to the consequences if they do. Astral caravan (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/a/astral-caravan) doesn't mention it at all, but by itself, astral traveler can't take anybody anywhere. It specifically calls out astral caravan as what gets people under the effects of astral traveler to the Astral Plane.

So... is the silver cord like that for astral projection, and connecting back to a comatose body on the source Plane? Or is it just some sort of "guide" back to where they came from? Heck, it says it leads to the Prime; should that be read absolutely, or as being based in an assumption that they came from there and not some other Plane?

[Harkness]

But it gets weirder. It talks about "leaving the Prime behind," but then mentions being connected by "a silvery cord."

So... is the silver cord like that for astral projection, and connecting back to a comatose body on the source Plane? Or is it just some sort of "guide" back to where they came from? Heck, it says it leads to the Prime; should that be read absolutely, or as being based in an assumption that they came from there and not some other Plane?

It looks mechanically similar to Astral Projection:
You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.

While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord.

From the wording of your spell and this one, I think you leave your physical body behind and create a psionic/astral copy to travel in the Astral plane.

Hope that helps!

[Segev]

It looks similar, yes, but unlike astral projection, it makes zero mention of it.

The weirdness is compounded by astral caravan not even mentioning the silver cord at all. Are we to assume Astral Caravan has the one person who manifests it entering the Astral bodily, but only bringing the astral forms of his attendent travelers? Or is he leaving his body behind, too?

I suppose I should have mentioned that my purpose in this thread is to explore what these powers CURRENTLY due, per the RAW, as preparation to try to remake them both into something useful enough that either is worth taking in their own rights. But before I start tinkering, I want to make sure I'm not missing any nuances in the existing powers and their thematic as well as mechanical elements.

[Karl Aegis]

It says the cord is connected to the Material Plane itself. It doesn't mention leaving a body behind, or even the cord is connected to another body. There is no room for confusion.

[Segev]

It says the cord is connected to the Material Plane itself. It doesn't mention leaving a body behind, or even the cord is connected to another body. There is no room for confusion.

There's definitely room for confusion, given exterior context (e.g. the astral projection spell). However, the mention of the silver cord raises questions because it doesn't actually say what it does. Or what the consequences of it being severed are. Still, the first two sentences are good points, and may provide some potential fodder. You'd say that astral traveler and astral caravan cause the subjects to physically enter the Astral Plane, not merely project their consciousneses?

(This isn't a complaint so much as an aside: it's interesting that the psionic versions of the effect actually transport one bodily, while the spell only projects the mind/spirit. One would think the "mind-power" version would start with "just the mind.")

[Rebel7284]

It was CLEARLY intended to reference astral projection... and then they stopped writing half-way and forgot. What happens at this point is up to your DM.

[Crichton]

You'd say that astral traveler and astral caravan cause the subjects to physically enter the Astral Plane, not merely project their consciousneses?


Wouldn't they have to, given that the stated purpose of the powers is to transport the users from one location to another, via several days or weeks of travel through the Astral Plane?




Also, without the augment, the power is really hard to use, bordering on useless. How do you survive 12 or more days without ever letting go of the hands of your companions? How do you eat? Sleep? Go to the bathroom? Defend yourselves?


And the power doesn't seem to provide any means of recovering from early termination. It gives several ways the power could end prematurely, and says you "halt in whatever portion of the Astral Plane you happen to be traversing" but doesn't say how to get lost members back, or even how to continue if the power is ended early. You'd assume you just link back up and manifest it again, but the power starts with the text "You lead a caravan into the Astral Plane, leaving the Material Plane behind" so it's unclear if you can even manifest it at all once you're already stuck in the Astral Plane.

[Psyren]

It makes absolutely no mention of any body being left behind, and while it talks about the fact that very few creatures can damage a silver cord, it doesn't go into any details as to the consequences if they do.

You won't find that on the SRD, because the true name of a silver sword is a githyanki silver sword (XPH pg 167) and the consequences of using it to damage or sever an astral traveler's silver cord are spelled out there (the subject is either returned to their body or slain instantly, respectively.) While the power does not do a good job of spelling this out, yes, you're leaving your body behind until such time as the Astral Caravan arrives at its destination, at which point your body appears on the new plane.

Note that the Astral Plane is timeless, so it's not like your body is actually left behind for any appreciable length of time - either you make it where you're going and your body vanishes right away (from the perspective of a Material observer), or something goes wrong with your silver cord. If the latter, either you snap back to your body and wake up, or drop dead.


Also, without the augment, the power is really hard to use, bordering on useless. How do you survive 12 or more days without ever letting go of the hands of your companions? How do you eat? Sleep? Go to the bathroom? Defend yourselves?

You don't have to do any of the bold things. Timeless plane, remember?

Defend yourselves is another matter though.

[Segev]

You won't find that on the SRD, because the true name of a silver sword is a githyanki silver sword (XPH pg 167) and the consequences of using it to damage or sever an astral traveler's silver cord are spelled out there (the subject is either returned to their body or slain instantly, respectively.) While the power does not do a good job of spelling this out, yes, you're leaving your body behind until such time as the Astral Caravan arrives at its destination, at which point your body appears on the new plane.I know (most of) the things that can damage a silver cord, yeah. (The power doesn't mention a "silver sword" at all, actually, just the cord and how few things can damage it.)


Note that the Astral Plane is timeless, so it's not like your body is actually left behind for any appreciable length of time - either you make it where you're going and your body vanishes right away (from the perspective of a Material observer), or something goes wrong with your silver cord. If the latter, either you snap back to your body and wake up, or drop dead.



You don't have to do any of the bold things. Timeless plane, remember?

Defend yourselves is another matter though.This is an interesting interpretation of the "timelessness" of the Astral Plane. Notably, astral projection specifies no dilation between time away and time your body spends comatose wherever you left it. On the other hand, teleport and its ilk use the Astral Plane for "instantaneous" transport.

Suggesting that the "timeless" travel takes subjective time to those on the Astral Plane, but doesn't take any objective time at either end of the journey, is new to me, and definitely could stand to be spelled out in the power. It would handle the risks of leaving your body behind, defenseless, as well as its material needs, even if you leave it behind rather than take it with you.

[Psyren]

I know (most of) the things that can damage a silver cord, yeah. (The power doesn't mention a "silver sword" at all, actually, just the cord and how few things can damage it.)

It specifically does. Again, you want to read the actual XPH entry for this, not the SRD. The SRD is a handy online reference, but ultimately it's not the primary source for psionic powers; the sourcebook is.



This is an interesting interpretation of the "timelessness" of the Astral Plane. Notably, astral projection specifies no dilation between time away and time your body spends comatose wherever you left it. On the other hand, teleport and its ilk use the Astral Plane for "instantaneous" transport.

It doesn't have to - from the perspective of the Material, an instant on the Astral Plane and 12 days on the Astral Plane are identical.

(And without coming off facetious - while it would be nice to have reminders in the power itself, it's a bit gauche to be putting planar travel in a campaign without expecting some level of facility with planar rules.)

[Segev]

It specifically does. Again, you want to read the actual XPH entry for this, not the SRD. The SRD is a handy online reference, but ultimately it's not the primary source for psionic powers; the sourcebook is.I was actually looking in Pathfinder; I will have to look in their book. (I own both the XPH and Ultimate Psionics.)


It doesn't have to - from the perspective of the Material, an instant on the Astral Plane and 12 days on the Astral Plane are identical.

(And without coming off facetious - while it would be nice to have reminders in the power itself, it's a bit gauche to be putting planar travel in a campaign without expecting some level of facility with planar rules.)
That's also not entirely true, though. One can spend decades on the Astral and come back to the Material those same decades later. And I don't think backwards-flow of information is allowed, either. It gets a bit weird, as one might expect from the Planes. I hadn't actually heard the interpretation you're giving it before; I'd only ever heard the "time doesn't ravage you while you're there" variation. And "time catches up to you when you return," which can be a nasty surprise.


Now, on to ways to try to make these useful.

I'm kind-of picturing astral traveler as either an unreliable scrying/communication tool, or as a sort of stowaway option. Either it does what modern tales of Astral Projection claim it does, and sends your spirit out to roam, intangible and largely invisible and unable to act on the world, or it allows you (more in line with what it's currently doing) to snag a ride on anybody else's astral travel. Follow teleporters, hook up with astral caravans, maybe even poke your head into the Astral Plane and wander aimlessly with your silver cord to guide you home (but nowhere else).

Astral caravan, then, allows you to bodily enter the Astral Plane on your own power, and also to forge a thought-road and even conceive a color pool right to your destination. Unfortunately, actually travelling to the color pool takes some time, and a sort of accumulated success on your survival checks is how you eventually get there. You can end it early, thanks to the timeless nature of the Astral Plane, because you always were going to end it early, but the lower your accumulated roll, the further off from your destination the color pool you create is. Up to and including the wrong plane entirely.

Augments for astral caravan would make it more and more luxurious (and resemble an actual caravan), in ways I haven't fleshed out yet.


These are obviously rough ideas, and I'm trying to mold them around existing stuff while making up new things that might be entertaining. But I do tend to overpower things. So comments, brainstorming, and thoughts are requested.

[icefractal]

it doesn't have to - from the perspective of the Material, an instant on the Astral Plane and 12 days on the Astral Plane are identical.That is not how it works in any 3.x setting I've seen. And if it was, it would be both extremely broken (accelerated demiplane shenanigans, now core and infinite) and extremely confusing to adjudicate (Adam shifts to the Astral plane and stays there. One day later, Bob does the same. How long was the delay from Adam's perspective?)

Because keep in mind, in 3.x at least, the Astral plane is a plane. You can Plane Shift there. Githyanki live there, and can travel back and forth from it. You can open a Gate to it and then hold a conversation with someone on the other side. So transfinite time rates don't really work.

[Jack_Simth]

It doesn't have to - from the perspective of the Material, an instant on the Astral Plane and 12 days on the Astral Plane are identical.That is not what timeless means, in either 3.5 (www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#timeless) or Pathfinder (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/the-planes/#TOC-Timeless). In both cases, the wording is basically the same:
On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively.
On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait can affect certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane.

The danger of a timeless plane is that once one leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging do occur retroactively.
(Emphasis added in both, they do also continue on a little)

What you want for time shenanigans is flowing time (or one of the "good" interpretations of Time Stop on a plane that's timeless with respect to magic - there's also "Bad" interpretations that are equally valid).

If you plane shift off the material plane to the Astral, spend a day there, and come back to the Material plane... you've been gone a day. The Astral is Timeless, but it's not Flowing.

[Mato]

It specifically does. Again, you want to read the actual XPH entry for this, not the SRD. The SRD is a handy online reference, but ultimately it's not the primary source for psionic powers; the sourcebook is.This bears repeating.

I'll admit the power is sort of confusing. But astral traveler very clearly lays out you have a silver cord connected to the material plane when you start the journey while astral caravan can trap you in the middle of nowhere when the power ends. This suggests the travel portion of the power is done using your astral form, which is better explained in other supplements, until you arrive at your destination.

Also, a githyanki sword is the only known weapon that can damage a silver cord. Psychic storms and some monsters are also capable of damaging it.

[Segev]

This bears repeating.

I'll admit the power is sort of confusing. But astral traveler very clearly lays out you have a silver cord connected to the material plane when you start the journey while astral caravan can trap you in the middle of nowhere when the power ends. This suggests the travel portion of the power is done using your astral form, which is better explained in other supplements, until you arrive at your destination.

Also, a githyanki sword is the only known weapon that can damage a silver cord. Psychic storms and some monsters are also capable of damaging it.

I'm not sure what relevance Astral Caravan being able to strand you has to whether your astral form is all of you or just the equivalent of your astral projection. The mention of the cord is the only thing that suggests it, as far as I can see. (I won't say it isn't a solid bit of evidence. Just that I don't see the rest of this as supporting the point.)

[Psyren]

I messed up a tad with my definition of Astral timelessness above, but my initial point is still correct - you don't have to eat, drink, or... eliminate while there, making holding someone's hand for long periods of time much less onerous/impractical than it might seem.

When you consider that Astral Caravan gives you planar travel as early as level 5, all the restrictions make sense - it's not like you're Plane Shifting after all. It's closer to something like Shadow Walk, only it's a heck of a lot less dangerous and you can access much more of the cosmology.

[Jack_Simth]

I messed up a tad with my definition of Astral timelessness above, but my initial point is still correct - you don't have to eat, drink, or... eliminate while there, making holding someone's hand for long periods of time much less onerous/impractical than it might seem.

When you consider that Astral Caravan gives you planar travel as early as level 5, all the restrictions make sense - it's not like you're Plane Shifting after all. It's closer to something like Shadow Walk, only it's a heck of a lot less dangerous and you can access much more of the cosmology.
For practical purposes, you still need to eat, drink, and "other things". Your hunger, thirst, and "other biological processes" will catch up with you when you leave if you don't.

[Crichton]

I messed up a tad with my definition of Astral timelessness above, but my initial point is still correct - you don't have to eat, drink, or... eliminate while there, making holding someone's hand for long periods of time much less onerous/impractical than it might seem.

When you consider that Astral Caravan gives you planar travel as early as level 5, all the restrictions make sense - it's not like you're Plane Shifting after all. It's closer to something like Shadow Walk, only it's a heck of a lot less dangerous and you can access much more of the cosmology.

You're right, I had totally spaced that about it, way back up in my earlier post.

Still gotta sleep, though. How do you sleep without inadvertently letting go? Does this make tying everyone's hands together basically mandatory?

Of course, the only sleep deprivation rules I know about arguably only function under one of the Signs of the Apocalypse from Elder Evils, so maybe there's no negative consequences for going 6 to 12 days without sleep, in D&D?

[Psyren]

For practical purposes, you still need to eat, drink, and "other things". Your hunger, thirst, and "other biological processes" will catch up with you when you leave if you don't.

MotP specifically says you won't die though, even if you spend years there, you'll just be ravenous when you leave. Aging is the only one you really need to be worried about (that one can indeed kill you) but 12 days is unlikely to be a big deal on that score.


You're right, I had totally spaced that about it, way back up in my earlier post.

Still gotta sleep, though. How do you sleep without inadvertently letting go? Does this make tying everyone's hands together basically mandatory?

Of course, the only sleep deprivation rules I know about arguably only function under one of the Signs of the Apocalypse from Elder Evils, so maybe there's no negative consequences for going 6 to 12 days without sleep, in D&D?

Astral Plane is timeless with regard to sleep per MotP. It's in a different place in the book for some reason but it's there.

[Crichton]

MotP specifically says you won't die though, even if you spend years there, you'll just be ravenous when you leave. Aging is the only one you really need to be worried about (that one can indeed kill you) but 12 days is unlikely to be a big deal on that score.



Astral Plane is timeless with regard to sleep per MotP. It's in a different place in the book for some reason but it's there.




The only place I can find that in MotP is in the "A Sample Cosmology: The Omniverse" section which describes itself as an example of a simpler, custom, cosmology for a campaign, rather than as a description of the default D&D cosmology, which it specifically says it is not describing in that section. As such, why would it's passing reference to timelessness with regard to sleep overrule the actual Astral Plane descriptive entries - both the one in the DMG, and the one in MotP - which do not include sleep in the Astral Plane's timeless trait?

[tomandtish]

As others have mentioned, while SRD is a handy document, it often leaves some things out. From The Psionics Handbook....


Freeing your spirit from your physical body, this power allows you to project an astral body into another plane altogether. You can bring the astral forms of other creatures
with you, provided the creatures are linked in a circle with you at the time of the manifestation. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all
times. If something happens to you during the journey, the companions are stranded wherever you left them.

You project your astral self into the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a State of suspended animation. The power projects an astral copy of
you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral plane touches upon every other plane, you can travel astrally to other planes as you will. You then leave the Astral
Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.

On the Astral plane or any outer plane, the astral body is connected at all times to the material body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, the affected person is killed, astrally and
materially. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the
new body. If the second body or astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to the person's body where it rests on the Material Plane, reviving it from its state of suspended
animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on
other planes.

You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your
spirits to their physical bodies. The power lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as negate psionics manifested upon either the
physical body or the astral form, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).

[Crichton]

As others have mentioned, while SRD is a handy document, it often leaves some things out. From The Psionics Handbook....

That's from Astral Projection, not Astral Traveler.


Also it's from the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, not the 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook, which replaces it (although strictly speaking, they didn't re-print or update the power Astral Projection in the XPH, so the 3.0 version may still be valid.)