Beast Shape et al and non-medium original forms: it gets...weird.

[Segev]

This actually came to me because I was looking at this feat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/animal-companion-feats/shapeless-familiar-animal-companion-feat/) that gives a familiar an alternate form, but beast shape (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape[/url) doesn't seem well-thought-out for originating forms that are smaller than Small or larger than Medium. Take a Tiny Greensting Scorpion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/scorpion/scorpion-greensting), for example. At Str 3, it's not even particularly weak for a Tiny creature; the house centipede (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/centipede/centipede-house) has Str 1.

If you cast beast shape II on your greensting scorpion familiar (which you don't even need the Shapeless Familiar feat to do; it's a valid target for Share Spells) and turn it into, say, a grizzly bear (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/bear/brown-grizzly-bear), you wind up with a Str 7 grizzly bear! (The Dex works out almost right, though, 14 instead of the base 13.)

It's pretty clear that +4 Str and -2 Dex due to size mods are thought out for Medium starting sizes. Though size by itself doesn't have a "modifier" to stats, it's obvious that the greensting scorpion's 3 Str is due in no small (heh) part to its Tiny size. Though, admittedly, even if we took the penalties to Str due to Tiny size from beast shape II to inform us of what they "should" be, that only gets our "grizzly bear" up to Str 9 by "reverting" to Medium before we apply the Large size modifier.

So there's something to be said for the spells not really matching the stat modifiers for particular sizes. I mean, assuming a Medium animal form gives a +2 to Str, and the assumption was likely that you were a Medium or Small creature to begin with. So...

It's just...really weird.

[Gnaeus]

You want this table. This applies before the spell stat changes

Transmutation
Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes
Creature’s Original Size Str Dex Con Adjusted Size
Fine +6 -6 – Small
Diminutive +6 -4 – Small
Tiny +4 -2 – Small
Large -4 +2 -2 Medium
Huge -8 +4 -4 Medium
Gargantuan -12 +4 -6 Medium
Colossal -16 +4 -8 Medium
Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition.

[Rynjin]

Working as intended; intentional nerf from 3.5.

[Segev]

You want this table. This applies before the spell stat changes

Transmutation
Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes
Creature’s Original Size Str Dex Con Adjusted Size
Fine +6 -6 – Small
Diminutive +6 -4 – Small
Tiny +4 -2 – Small
Large -4 +2 -2 Medium
Huge -8 +4 -4 Medium
Gargantuan -12 +4 -6 Medium
Colossal -16 +4 -8 Medium
Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition.That does get things more on par if you upsize or downsize things to Medium then apply the spell effects. Does it actually say to do that anywhere, or are the RAW that you just apply the spell effects directly to the critter regardless of original size?


Working as intended; intentional nerf from 3.5.I somehow doubt this specific interaction is intended. Yes, there's a nerf that was deliberate. No, I don't think this outcome was specifically intended. Can you provide any commentary that supports that it was meant for Tiny creatures to be still weaker than your average human even when upsized to Large?

[Gnaeus]

That does get things more on par if you upsize or downsize things to Medium then apply the spell effects. Does it actually say to do that anywhere, or are the RAW that you just apply the spell effects directly to the critter regardless of original size?

Bottom of the section of Polymorph subschool:
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell. (see Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes)

[Segev]

Bottom of the section of Polymorph subschool:
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell. (see Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes)

Ah! There it is! Thank you, that makes this a lot less silly.

[Psyren]

Bottom of the section of Polymorph subschool:
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell. (see Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes)

This is the right answer; I'd add that for straightforward questions like this ("What's the final strength if I cast BS2 on a greensting scorpion to turn it into a grizzly bear") we're happy to knock those out for you in the Simple RAW thread too.

[Segev]

This is the right answer; I'd add that for straightforward questions like this ("What's the final strength if I cast BS2 on a greensting scorpion to turn it into a grizzly bear") we're happy to knock those out for you in the Simple RAW thread too.

I didn’t realize it would have a simple answer, or I’d have posted there. But thanks!