Is everything pre-determined in OOTS world?

[Emanick]

If they can know anything, then why are they never portrayed as such? Why didn't the rooster allowed their seer to see everything that was going to happen during the battle of Azure city? Why doesn't Tiamat realize that her plan isn't going to work in the end?(as I doubt this comic eill end with Tiamat winning), hell, considering how Thor was shown as being able to count all the worlds they destroyed, it's safe to assume that any god that could see the future this clearly could very well be aware of everything.

Also, why didn't the gods knew that the Snarl was going to be formed? Why didn't Odin predict that the last world wouldn't use magic?

Perhaps they can’t really control their ability to see into the future. That’s consistent with what we see, and it would explain a lot.

The Oracle does seem to have control over the ability to see into the future. Now, it doesn’t make a ton of intuitive sense that a created being would have more power than the beings it was created by, but I think we have to make an assumption that something unintuitive is going on for all of this to make sense.

One possibility - and this is just an example of how we could reconcile all of the available information with the fact that the gods don’t seem to know everything; it almost certainly isn’t actually the case - is that the “seer” gods of the three pantheons are able to combine their powers to grant one being per world a mostly-unrestricted ability to see into the future. However, each of them retains the right to veto any particular prophecy from that being. On this world it’s Tiamat’s turn to have a follower with the gift of mostly-unrestricted prophecy (as part of the compromise, the Oracle has to live in a different pantheon’s territory), and neither Odin nor Rooster nor Tiamat have vetoed anything on-panel because they simply haven’t felt the need to. (They might have wanted to veto the ABD’s query about Vaarsuvius, but if they had, Tiamat might have vetoed something they cared about, so they declined.) In addition, making prophecies that directly concern The Snarl weakens its prison, so they avoid making use of The Oracle for this purpose. (The question about Girard’s Gate was just indirect enough to be allowed.)

I dunno how plausible this all is, but it strikes me as at least marginally more so than “the gods can foresee everything but didn’t bother” or “The Oracle can foresee everything, unlike the god that actually grants him that power, and the gods never make use of that ability to figure out how to solve their problems with other pantheons or The Snarl even though they easily could.”

[mjasghar]

With regards to the gods - this was clarified by Rich
Clerics get that power from the idea they worship
With gods they get someone who will add extra aid and benefits in return for behaviour limits and promoting a specific version of that idea
So you could say that deity clerics are contracted staff, elemental and other cultists are freelancers. Then you have a few clerics of ideals who are amateurs. They would have no support structure but decide their own behaviour etc. Of course, at higher levels they would have issues with spells that summon extra planar allies so might have to compromise and establish quid pro quo relationships with certain gods or high rank outsiders.
The most obvious amateurs of this type are independent paladins

[Fyraltari]

If they can know anything, then why are they never portrayed as such?
They are. Each of their predictions come true.

Why didn't the rooster allowed their seer to see everything that was going to happen during the battle of Azure city?
Sangwaan specifically refused to divine when she would die.
Furthermore it is entirely possible that Rooster wanted the goblins to gain a foothold as part of future negotiations with the Dark One.

Why doesn't Tiamat realize that her plan isn't going to work in the end?(as I doubt this comic eill end with Tiamat winning)
Which plan? Making peace with the Dark One? Because I am pretty sure this one has good odds of working. Having the three fiends massacre one fifth of the good dragons? That's not a plan. Even if their own plan to do so doesn't work out, three Archfiends owe her big time, that's a gain for her.

hell, considering how Thor was shown as being able to count all the worlds they destroyed, it's safe to assume that any god that could see the future this clearly could very well be aware of everything.

Also, why didn't the gods knew that the Snarl was going to be formed? Why didn't Odin predict that the last world wouldn't use magic?
My guess is that they have to look for a specific thing, such as "when will the Oracle die" or "when will that wizard peak in magical power", etc... They had no idea that the Snarl was possible until it happened so none of them looked for "attack of a god-killing creature" neither did they look for "ascension of a god of a fourth quiddity".

Thor has total recall, that doesn't mean Odin could divine everything ever. We have seen clearly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html) that gods aren't any better than mortals at paying attention to two things at once. Think of the end of Lord of the Rings, Sauron can look anywhere in the world but as long as the Captains of Gondor can keep his attention firmly on them, then he cannot see Frodo and Sam drawing close to Mt. Doom because he cannot look in two places at once.

So, like most things in D&D, it comes down to action economy. Gods have 24 hours each day and they need to give spells to their Clerics, govern their attribute (magic, life, storms, whatever), rule their Domain and attend to all their various duties. How long each day do Tiamat, Rooster and Odin dedicate to future-gazing and what do they look for?

[Morgana]

Tiamat clearly only backed off from the fiends when they promised they'd kill the good dragons, meaning she at least somewhat believes that will be the case, so we can deduce she doesn't know everything. Furthermore the gods all clearly seem to not know if they can even beat the Snarl, the whole point of even considering destroying the world in the first place was because there was a chance that it could go wrong, if everything was pre-determined that would be an absolute and there wouldn't be a point in even arguing. The whole current arc is literally about the gods arguing if sticking with this world is even worth the risk, there is no risk in a deterministic universe.

[Fyraltari]

Tiamat clearly only backed off from the fiends when they promised they'd kill the good dragons, meaning she at least somewhat believes that will be the case, so we can deduce she doesn't know everything. Furthermore the gods all clearly seem to not know if they can even beat the Snarl, the whole point of even considering destroying the world in the first place was because there was a chance that it could go wrong, if everything was pre-determined that would be an absolute and there wouldn't be a point in even arguing. The whole current arc is literally about the gods arguing if sticking with this world is even worth the risk, there is no risk in a deterministic universe.

That’s only true if someone knows everything which, as I said, I don’t think any one in the OOTS-verse does. I have already given you reasons for Tiamat’s actions. As for the gods’ uncertainty, Odin is mentally indisposed right now and according to Thor, the Western Gods do not trust Tiamat. We don’t know much about the Southern Gods but it is entirely possible they voted the way they did (‘‘No’’) because Rooster assures them the good guys were going to win.

[Morgana]

Why would Tiamat lie about the Snarl destroying everything? And if they don't trust Tiamat, why wouldn't they just ask Roost who also has no reason to lie about any of this? And the snarl has been shown to frighten and be an existencial threat to all gods, it kinda wholely misses the point of the snarl if there are gods who know how and when it's going to be beaten, especially cause Odin could have forseen that the Snarl would be defeated and how worlds ago, which would obviously be something that he'd ask at some point. Furthermore, why isn't Rooster directly helping Thor in this case? And why hasn't Thor not yet even attempted to ask Rooster if they are indeed going to win? Also, never in all of the statements we saw from the gods there's any mention of this being a situation that is any way set in stone, in fact they very much talk like it's something that no one has any way of knowing if they can ever beat them. If it was, I'm sure the southern pantheon and Rooster in particular would have told all the other gods by now, something they clearly haven't.

[Fyraltari]

Why would Tiamat lie about the Snarl destroying everything?
Because she would stand to gain from the world not ending somehow. We've seen that most gods had entirely selfish reasons for their votes.

And if they don't trust Tiamat, why wouldn't they just ask Roost who also has no reason to lie about any of this?
Because Rooster is a Southern God (which makes communication difficult) and may very well have reasons to lie about this. We've never seen Rooster, he may very well not be anymore trustworthy than Tiamat.

And the snarl has been shown to frighten and be an existencial threat to all gods, it kinda wholely misses the point of the snarl if there are gods who know how and when it's going to be beaten, especially cause Odin could have forseen that the Snarl would be defeated and how worlds ago, which would obviously be something that he'd ask at some point.
That depends what "beaten" means. Thor's plan is to cage the Snarl indefinitely in a prison that still will need spot-wielding every couple millenia, meaning that if it does go through every god trying to divine "When will we destroy the Snarl?" or "When will we design a prison strurdy enough to contain the Snarl forever" would only see "never" or, rather, an error 404 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html).


Also, never in all of the statements we saw from the gods there's any mention of this being a situation that is any way set in stone, in fact they very much talk like it's something that no one has any way of knowing if they can ever beat them.
Well neither Thor nor Loki nor Hel nor any of the Northern Gods except Odin have any way to be sure.

But what is your position exactly? If the future isn't set in stone then how do you explain the Oracle, Sangwaan and Durkon's prophecy?

[Morgana]

Tiamat doesn't have anything to gain if the Snarl breaks lose, and kill all the gods before they can trap it again, cause she will be dead. And we've seen Tiger very easily talking with Thor, and if at least one god of every pantheon could for sure see the future without any limitations, it makes very little sense that every god wouldn't know that information at this point. And prophecies exist in tons of settings where there's free will, just from the top of my head there's Doctor Who where only a few points in time are really pre-determined, and even those come with their own set of exceptions where they can be altered, hell both Marvel and DC have prophecies and it's been shown that both have fairly mutable futures. No prophecy thus far has been terribly detailed about what happens in the future, and tons have even been fairly open to interpretation.

Certainly none of them have been detailed enough to grant any validity to there being omniscient beings in this universe

[Fyraltari]

Tiamat doesn't have anything to gain if the Snarl breaks lose, and kill all the gods before they can trap it again, cause she will be dead.
That's not a possibility. I mean there are three options that we know of here.
A) The Snarl is indefinitely containes.
B) The Snarl destroys the world and the gods trap it in the next one.
C) The gods destroy the world and trap the snarl in the next one.

"The Snarl destroys the gods" isn't really on the table as they have managed to escape it countless times before.

And we've seen Tiger very easily talking with Thor
True, which does not invalidate the "Rooster is as untrustworthy as Tiamat" proposition. I mean of the 3 gods that can see the future we know good reasons why the other gods wouldn't trust 2. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't trust the third as well.

and if at least one god of every pantheon could for sure see the future without any limitations, it makes very little sense that every god wouldn't know that information at this point.
Who said they wouldn't?

And prophecies exist in tons of settings where there's free will
Yeah, because free-will isn't incompatible with determinism or divination.

just from the top of my head there's Doctor Who where only a few points in time are really pre-determined
That's a terrible exemple. And i say that nd even those come with their own set of exceptions was a Doctor Who fan. That show has long abandonned any attempt at being consistent with the mechanics of its time-travel.

hell both Marvel and DC have prophecies and it's been shown that both have fairly mutable futures.
So, are you not going to answer the question? If the future isn't set in stone how can it be predicted?


No prophecy thus far has been terribly detailed about what happens in the future, and tons have even been fairly open to interpretation.
The Oracle and Sangwaan know the exact minute they will be killed and burgled respectively and can prepare accordingly, how many more details do you want?

[Morgana]

"Well neither Thor nor Loki nor Hel nor any of the Northern Gods except Odin have any way to be sure." what did you mean by this then?

[Devils_Advocate]

free-will isn't incompatible with determinism
To be more precise: The future being entirely determined by the present is in no way incompatible with our intentions controlling our actions. That's just cause and effect, and a deterministic universes is made of cause and effect. The future being entirely determined by the present is incompatible with our intentions being fundamentally random, because full determinism means that nothing is fundamentally random. But why someone would think that it's cynical to believe that our intentions aren't fundamentally random is beyond me.

Personally, I'm convinced that objective reality is entirely non-arbitrary.

[factotum]

The future being entirely determined by the present is incompatible with our intentions being fundamentally random, because full determinism means that nothing is fundamentally random. But why someone would think that it's cynical to believe that our intentions aren't fundamentally random is beyond me.


As I already pointed out in this thread, it is not necessary for something to be random for it to be essentially unpredictable. The weather is an entirely deterministic system, but we cannot reliably predict it more than a few days in advance.

[HorizonWalker]

Worth keeping in mind is that the Western gods are a bit more insular than the Northern and Southern gods. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Northern and Southern continents are connected via isthmus, whereas the Western Continent is its own completely separate landmass way out to sea.

As for why the Gods still have to vote, even though some of them can see the hypothetically predetermined future? Well, because only some of them can see the hypothetically predetermined future. Odin's a Good deity who's the most powerful in his pantheon and has been leading them pretty much this whole time, and even then the Northern Gods don't trust him enough to all follow his lead. Tiamat is very much not a Good deity- can you imagine how much more untrustworthy she seems to be than Odin?

[deuterio12]

Tiamat is very much not a Good deity- can you imagine how much more untrustworthy she seems to be than Odin?

Yes, that terrible Tiamat, sending her chromatic dragons to attack and loot people's homes-

Oh no wait it's Thor's clerics who go around murderizing chromatic dragons at their own lairs and loot their stuff for personal profit.

Even the empress of blood is just a puppet ruler being manipulated by humanoids.

Really, what has Tiamat done of so terrible compared to the death and destruction that Thor's own followers unleash upon the world?

[Emanick]

Yes, that terrible Tiamat, sending her chromatic dragons to attack and loot people's homes-

Oh no wait it's Thor's clerics who go around murderizing chromatic dragons at their own lairs and loot their stuff for personal profit.

Even the empress of blood is just a puppet ruler being manipulated by humanoids.

Really, what has Tiamat done of so terrible compared to the death and destruction that Thor's own followers unleash upon the world?

Remember when Durkon did literally anything to harm literally any dragon in OOTS? No, neither do I.

Remember when any other cleric of Thor did literally anything to harm literally any dragon in OOTS? No, neither do I.

We do know that Tiamat wants the IFCC to cause the genocide of metallic dragons, though, so that's pretty bad.

[woweedd]

Yes, that terrible Tiamat, sending her chromatic dragons to attack and loot people's homes-

Oh no wait it's Thor's clerics who go around murderizing chromatic dragons at their own lairs and loot their stuff for personal profit.

Even the empress of blood is just a puppet ruler being manipulated by humanoids.

Really, what has Tiamat done of so terrible compared to the death and destruction that Thor's own followers unleash upon the world?

A. ...Wha? Out of all the Order members, Durkon is probably the LEAST dangerous to hang around, so i'm not sure where you're getting that from.
B. She is explicitly referred to, in SOD, as an "Evil god", by Redcloak, a man who is himself Evil and thus has no reason to lie.

Also, on the subject of other debates...I'd actually argue Rooster being Evil does have some evidence behind it. Given that Sagewan, in Spoiler Alert, treats her gift as more of a sadistic curse than anything.

[RatElemental]

What if determinism only applies to mortals and it is only set in place during the creation of the world? It would tie a lot of this up in a neat bow, the seer gods know what all the mortals are going to do but can't look into the future to see what the next world will be like, or what Loki's up to.

[Fyraltari]

"Well neither Thor nor Loki nor Hel nor any of the Northern Gods except Odin have any way to be sure." what did you mean by this then?

That only Odin,Tiamat and Rooster seem to have divination powers so the other gods cannot be sure of the future since they have at best second-hand information.

[brian 333]

I think this is being made more difficult than it needs to be.

A) There may be multiple beings with the power of prophecy. The claim there cannot is based on logic which may not even apply to our world; we have no way to test and find out if it does.

B) The ability to predict future events does not equal omniscience. Perhaps one gets previews rather than spoilers, to use an analogy.

C) A deity may not itself have the power of prophecy and yet be able to grant the power to a follower.

I prefer to take the author at his word when his story shows an oracle who can forsee its own death but not prevent it. Divinition works in OotS. How is not explained, but it works, and none of the deities are omniscient. Any explanation which implies otherwise is wrong.

[Rydiro]

A bit of a tangent.
How can people believe that determinism and Quantum mechanics are both true in the real world?
I never got that.

[Dion]

A bit of a tangent.
How can people believe that determinism and Quantum mechanics are both true in the real world?
I never got that.

*shrug* I have no idea which of the many definitions of “determinism” your question is related to, so it’s impossible for me to give any kind of answer that would make sense.

[Fyraltari]

A bit of a tangent.
How can people believe that determinism and Quantum mechanics are both true in the real world?
I never got that.

The uncertainty principle only affects the extremely small. The probabilistic effects aren't important enough to be noticeable on larger structures such as molecules.

[brian 333]

Because we experience time in a linear fashion it does not mean the universe does. The big bang and the long runout may have happened simultaneously. In that case every event, no matter how small, has already happened. It is not fated, or even determined: our choices matter. But we've already made those future choices using our free will.

[deuterio12]

The uncertainty principle only affects the extremely small. The probabilistic effects aren't important enough to be noticeable on larger structures such as molecules.

On the contrary, they do affect all larger structures, just that usually the probabilities average out when you multiply them by millions of atoms.

However statistical aberrations can and do happen. Quantum mechanics state that basically anything is possible at any moment at any scale, just that most "impossible" events at our scale have absurdly low probabilities. But still greater than zero.

However a small random fluctuation can cascade to bigger events. Like the classic Schrödinger’s Cat experiment makes use of a radiation detector that only has a 50% chance of detecting a specific radioactive sample to trigger the poison. The cat is at our scale, but has 50% odds of dying or living thanks to quantum mechanics randomness.

[Fyraltari]

On the contrary, they do affect all larger structures, just that usually the probabilities average out when you multiply them by millions of atoms.

However statistical aberrations can and do happen. Quantum mechanics state that basically anything is possible at any moment at any scale, just that most "impossible" events at our scale have absurdly low probabilities. But still greater than zero.

However a small random fluctuation can cascade to bigger events. Like the classic Schrödinger’s Cat experiment makes use of a radiation detector that only has a 50% chance of detecting a specific radioactive sample to trigger the poison. The cat is at our scale, but has 50% odds of dying or living thanks to quantum mechanics randomness.

The entire point of the Schrödinger’s cat thought experiment is that quantum superposition does not happen at our scale. Erwin Schrödinger was opposed to Quantum Theory. There are several proposed explanations for why the cat isn’t undead.

[Peelee]

The entire point of the Schrödinger’s cat thought experiment is that quantum superposition does not happen at our scale. Erwin Schrödinger was opposés to Quantum Theory. There are several proposed explanations for why the cat isn’t undead.

Indeed, everyone leaves off the last line of "clearly this is ridiculous so that interpretation must be wrong."

Whether or not that interpretation is wrong is another thing, but Schrödinger certainly thought it was.

[Squire Doodad]

Wait, didn't this thread die twice already?
Maybe I'm just getting to old for this :smalltongue:


Indeed, everyone leaves off the last line of "clearly this is ridiculous so that interpretation must be wrong."

Whether or not that interpretation is wrong is another thing, but Schrödinger certainly thought it was.

The cat isn't dead because there were airholes, fresh water, and a nice big dead stoat in there with the cat. The cat's fine. Maybe a bit perturbed and feeling claustrophobic, but quite alive.

[RatElemental]

Indeed, everyone leaves off the last line of "clearly this is ridiculous so that interpretation must be wrong."

Whether or not that interpretation is wrong is another thing, but Schrödinger certainly thought it was.

Of course, the analogy is flawed from the beginning, trying to ratchet up quantum effects that only work on that scale to a macro one. The detector is observing the radioactive sample, the waveform is collapsed.

[Peelee]

Of course, the analogy is flawed from the beginning, trying to ratchet up quantum effects that only work on that scale to a macro one. The detector is observing the radioactive sample, the waveform is collapsed.

True, but that's because it's stupidly hard to come up with good analogies for quantum mechanics, as I'm sure Schrödinger would be the first to agree. In fact, I've always thought it sad that his other famous claim about quantum mechanics never got quite as big - “I don’t like it, and I’m sorry I ever had anything to do with it.”

[Dion]

The Oracle’s powers are not incompatible with quantum mechanics, since we have been shown that The Oracle exists. QED.

[vegetalss4]

Counterargument we have not been shown that quantum mechanics exist in the Stickverse

[Fyraltari]

Counterargument we have not been shown that quantum mechanics exist in the Stickverse

thog schrödinger's antagonist! yay!

[KorvinStarmast]

thog schrödinger's antagonist! yay! The frame of reference of that remark is in our verse, not stickverse. Thog is writing / speaking the intro in the book in our -verse. As with anything when dealing with physics, first check your frame of reference. :smallwink:

[Devils_Advocate]

As I already pointed out in this thread, it is not necessary for something to be random for it to be essentially unpredictable. The weather is an entirely deterministic system, but we cannot reliably predict it more than a few days in advance.
Yes, but I'm not sure how that's supposed to be relevant. Unless you mean to conflate free will with unpredictability itself.


Perhaps one gets previews rather than spoilers, to use an analogy.
Aren't previews a type of spoiler?


A bit of a tangent.
How can people believe that determinism and Quantum mechanics are both true in the real world?
I never got that.
I think that the Many-Worlds interpretation is the main one that does away with the contrivance "waveform collapse", which was always rather a vague handwave.


The entire point of the Schrödinger’s cat thought experiment is that quantum superposition does not happen at our scale.
Isn't it an argument that small-scale superposition implies large-scale superposition? And Schrödinger denied the consequent based largely on his own preconceptions? But the available evidence supports affirming the antecedent, so doing that understandably seems to be more common? Or something like that?

[HorizonWalker]

Isn't it an argument that small-scale superposition implies large-scale superposition? And Schrödinger denied the consequent based largely on his own preconceptions? But the available evidence supports affirming the antecedent, so doing that understandably seems to be more common? Or something like that?

Schrodinger's Cat as a thought experiment is sarcastic and intended to scan as ridiculous- "If we accept the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics, then this is true. Since we clearly see that this is not true, then the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics is patently ridiculous."

The problem is that whoever wrote it down forgot to also write down the tone of sneering contempt with which the thought experiment was intended to be delivered with.

[Peelee]

Schrodinger's Cat as a thought experiment is sarcastic and intended to scan as ridiculous- "If we accept the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics, then this is true. Since we clearly see that this is not true, then the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics is patently ridiculous."

The problem is that whoever wrote it down forgot to also write down the tone of sneering contempt with which the thought experiment was intended to be delivered with.

Frankly, it's not even the most scathing thing Schrödinger even said relating to quantum mechanics.

[RatElemental]

Isn't it an argument that small-scale superposition implies large-scale superposition? And Schrödinger denied the consequent based largely on his own preconceptions? But the available evidence supports affirming the antecedent, so doing that understandably seems to be more common? Or something like that?

The thing is, "Observing" a particle doesn't mean a human being has to look at it and that's observation. In fact, a human probably couldn't even see it. Anything at all interacting with it is observing it. The atoms in the cat are observing each other. The atoms in the poison are observing each other. The air molecules around the cesium are observing it, and so on. You can't 'scale up' the concept of superposition because in doing so you create billions of mini systems that are collapsing each other.