Help with incarnum

[Kaleph]

I've never played an MoI class, and I've often considered to build a PC using incarnum, but I have some old-school bias that worked against it so far. The problem is that, although I understand the intrinsic flexibility of the system, I'm afraid I wouldn't have a clear role in- and out-of-combat around which I would select secondary abilities on a daily basis.

So my questions. Are there recommended roles for the base classes?

Is it worth it, to use such a counterintuitive system, or it's simply easier AND better to use a more traditional class?

Are there any special tricks which are unique to the incarnum system? The chance to switch (at least the secondary) roles could be one, but does it really work?

Is there anything the totemist is good to besides übercharging?

I am looking at a deeply incarnum-based PC, i.e. no dip. And also low or no cheese.

Thank you!

[tyckspoon]

Totemist, I think, can be approached mostly like Psychic Warrior and similar gishing classes: They're best at beating face in direct combat, and their secondary abilities are used to make them better at doing that or help cover for the weaknesses common to melee combatants, so you get soulmelds that give you alternate mobility methods, soulmelds that let you make ranged attacks, soulmelds that make your natural weapons (you should have 4-6 of them, depending on race and other meld selection) attack with a larger damage die or give you Power Attack at a better ratio, soulmelds that let you attack against a save instead of HP/AC, etc. I don't recall anything in their list that would break them out of that role significantly, although they do pretty well with scouting and perception tasks, because D&D tends to associate those tasks with 'naturey guys'.

[Kaleph]

Totemist, I think, can be approached mostly like Psychic Warrior and similar gishing classes: They're best at beating face in direct combat, and their secondary abilities are used to make them better at doing that or help cover for the weaknesses common to melee combatants, so you get soulmelds that give you alternate mobility methods, soulmelds that let you make ranged attacks, soulmelds that make your natural weapons (you should have 4-6 of them, depending on race and other meld selection) attack with a larger damage die or give you Power Attack at a better ratio, soulmelds that let you attack against a save instead of HP/AC, etc. I don't recall anything in their list that would break them out of that role significantly, although they do pretty well with scouting and perception tasks, because D&D tends to associate those tasks with 'naturey guys'.

So, thank you for the answer. BSF + scout could be already a decent arrangement, TBH. My biggest fear is that the totemist becomes too fast a one-trick-pony, you know, like, I do 2,000 dam/round if my combo works, otherwise I'm useless. I don't like to break the game with a meleer, it tends to put the DM in an unpleasant situation.

Is my concern ill-posed?

[zfs]

Yeah, Totemists can't be skillmonkeys, but they can pump the skills they do have quite well. Scouting is a natural fit - both Listen and Spot are class skills, they get plenty of movement flexibility from totem binds, and tons of soulmelds give bumps to the perception skills and the stealth skills. Spot, for example, can stack three types of bonuses - untyped (Bloodtalons), enhancement (Manticore Belt) and competence (Great Raptor Mask). Kruthik Claws give both Hide and Move Silently.

[Troacctid]

An incarnate can function as a melee brawler, a ranged support, a minion master, or a utility-focused skillmonkey.


Key soulmelds for melee include lightning gauntlets and astral vambraces.
Key soulmelds for ranged include dissolving spittle.
Key soulmelds for minion mastery include necrocarnum circlet and soulspark familiar.
Key soulmelds for skillmonkeying include lucky dice, mage's spectacles, theft gloves, silvertongue mask, and truthseeker goggles.
Supplementary soulmelds for defense include crystal helm, astral vambraces, lammasu mantle, planar chasuble, planar ward, strongheart vest, flame cincture, impulse boots, incarnate avatar (good), spellward shirt, and vitality belt.
Supplementary soulmelds for offense include armguards of disruption, bloodwar gauntlets, lucky dice, sighting gloves, bloodwar gauntlets, bluesteel bracers, incarnate weapon, incarnate avatar (law or evil), and necrocarnum shroud.
Supplementary soulmelds for mobility include acrobat boots, airstep sandals, and cerulean sandals.
Situational soulmelds include enigma helm, theft gloves, riding bracers, sailor's bracers, psion's eyes, mage's spectacles, pauldrons of health, apparition ribbon, planar chasuble, strongheart vest, flame cincture, truthseeker goggles, and silvertongue mask.

So basically, you can pick one role and fill it very well by using the key soulmelds for that role plus supplementary ones, or you can fill multiple roles by picking the key soulmelds for both, and every day you can change your loadout depending on what you think will be most useful to the party, including switching to situational picks when the adventure calls for it. This gives you a lot of day-to-day flexibility, as well as level-by-level flexibility—for example, you can use astral vambraces at low levels when the DR is at its most powerful, and then switch it out for vitality belt at higher levels, when the HP boost is more valuable. Additionally, once you hit level 5, you get the ability to swap out soulmelds in the middle of the day, which lets you pull a situational soulmeld out of your back pocket whenever it's needed.

At higher levels, the more powerful chakra binds can open up new and exciting options, like flight, at-will suggestion, at-will mindlink, 1/week gate, and so on—or they can simply turbocharge the options you already had, like with dissolving spittle or soulspark familiar. This ability to scale up to higher levels is another big advantage over nonmagical counterparts like rogue or fighter.

Once you mix in multiclass combinations, you get the additional archetypes of the arcane caster (soulcaster), divine caster (sapphire hierarch), psionicist (soul manifester), super ultra minion master (Share Soulmeld feat), super ultra melee brawler (crusader or warblade dip), and super ultra chickenslayer or whatever (necrocarnate).

Now, as for the totemist being a one-trick pony in combat—it can definitely happen, but totemists have much more counterplay for those situations than most melee classes do, given their stable of utility soulmelds. There are also alternative combat strategies you could employ (totemist soulmelds also include some ranged, AoE, and save-or-suck options), most of which require little to no additional investment from you, so it's not too hard to switch-hit if that's what you want to do, especially once you get the double totem bind.

[weckar]

I've aways liked the Totemist as a main class for a dip to build a clawlock. Warlock 2-3/Totemist X is a frightening beast indeed.

As for the incarnate, they make for a great support class on a caster or manifester but do suffer from a lack of active abilities somewhat. A lot of the bonuses they get are constant, and do not even need to be reselected day by day.

Much of the active play a character like this gets is in shifting around essentia to where it is needed most at any given time. Like with the Factotum: Max out your main resource.

[Piggy Knowles]

Incarnates can be awkward to play, because the day-to-day flexibility they represent is really cool in theory but can be really hard to fit into a traditional party. The fact that you can be a trapfinder and infiltrator with skill checks comparable to a fully invested rogue on Monday, a half-decent minionmaster with zombies and floating balls of light aiding your party on Tuesday, a social face with some really fun goodies like suggestion at will on Wednesday, a defensive behemoth on Thursday and so on sounds really cool in theory... but you'll likely not be quite as good as a PC who really specializes hard in those roles, and in more traditional parties you sometimes end up getting locked into a single role for really long stretches. That can feel really constraining and fails to really show off the incarnate at its best.

On the other hand, less traditional parties can really let the incarnate shine. Smaller parties and larger parties both do really well with incarnates, smaller parties loving how the incarnate can compress several roles and larger parties giving the incarnate breathing room to switch up roles frequently. And the incarnate also plays really nicely alongside other classes that have similar flexibility. The best incarnate I've seen in a game was probably the one in a party alongside a binder, a factotum, a duskblade and a swordsage, with the various members often changing up roles and behaviors.

Re: totemist, while its best damage schtick (increase number of natural attacks, apply them to enemy's face, repeat) can get a bit old, it actually has a lot of ways to diversify beyond that. It's one of the few classes that can make grappling reliably effective without needing to grow to the size of a baleen whale, it has decent ranged options, it has tons of tactical mobility. I'm especially fond of combining it with warblade. You can also make an incredibly effective scout (that can still turn into a four-armed biting clawing ball of death when you need it to) with either straight totemist or with some kind of roguish dip for skill purposes. Totemists can get insanely good spot checks, they have tons of alternate movement modes (flight, swimming, climbing, teleportation and even the ability to go ethereal as early as level 9, which is INCREDIBLE for infiltration), they have non-spot ways of locating foes (scent, magic detection and even telepathy for Mindsight) and they can crank up their hide and move silently to pretty decent numbers despite the fact that they lack those as class skills. They also get the very best version of Track: the kind you can put away and replace with something useful for the 4 out of 5 sessions where it's not relevant.

[Troacctid]

Incarnates can be awkward to play, because the day-to-day flexibility they represent is really cool in theory but can be really hard to fit into a traditional party. The fact that you can be a trapfinder and infiltrator with skill checks comparable to a fully invested rogue on Monday, a half-decent minionmaster with zombies and floating balls of light aiding your party on Tuesday, a social face with some really fun goodies like suggestion at will on Wednesday, a defensive behemoth on Thursday and so on sounds really cool in theory... but you'll likely not be quite as good as a PC who really specializes hard in those roles, and in more traditional parties you sometimes end up getting locked into a single role for really long stretches. That can feel really constraining and fails to really show off the incarnate at its best.
I disagree with the notion that you won't be as good as other specialists—I think an incarnate specialized in one field absolutely stands up to similar classes. Also, if you're staying single-classed, rapid meldshaping is a big deal because it allows you to benefit from the class's versatility even if you use the same loadout every day.

[Kaleph]

Thank you all for your answers.

The totemist seems more straightforward to build, since the optimal roles (melee monster with increased mobility and scouting capability) are quite set in stone. I should make some math, and understand how "disturbing" for the average optimization level of my table it is (e.g. how big is the damage output), and how easy would be to switch to another shtick (e.g. melee to ranged or SoS), if the main one doesn't work.

I like to idea behind the incarnate more. Skillmonkey + ranged (or minionmancer) + situational secondary roles is a PC I can dig.

It seems that there is some polarisation regarding his ability to really shine at what he does, and about the actual effectiveness when he tries to switch roles on a daily basis (or even more often). I confess that I get the feeling the class is a bit anemic whenever I read the splatbook. Some more real game experience?

Misc: I know that incarnum classes make good dips, but I want to learn the system, so I'd prefer a fully incarnum build, regardless of the fact that it is not extremely optimized.
FWIW we play typically 4 PCs, so the "jack of all trades, master of none" or "secondary whatever" aren't ideal.

EDIT: how bad is the conflict between chakras and magic items? By reading some online thread it looks like VoP is the default solution (well, it's quite obvious), but that's not a very appealing feat for me, especially because its RP implications start to feel a bit awkward and irrealistic after a while...

[MisterKaws]

One thing to note is that Totemist can also be made into a potent ranged fighter by using Manticore Belt(See Chaingun Porcupine (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471344-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-Chaingun-Porcupine-(Tempest_Stormwind))).

[Blackhawk748]

So, thank you for the answer. BSF + scout could be already a decent arrangement, TBH. My biggest fear is that the totemist becomes too fast a one-trick-pony, you know, like, I do 2,000 dam/round if my combo works, otherwise I'm useless. I don't like to break the game with a meleer, it tends to put the DM in an unpleasant situation.

Is my concern ill-posed?

Totemists aren't your classic ubercharger where they have a (relatively) low number of attacks that hit super hard. They act more like monsters and have a boatload of attacks that hit at medium weight. They can sort of BS some other stuff, but their primary job is being a frontline fighter like the Barbarian or Ranger.

What the Totemist can do that other frontliners usually can't is drop some BFC and straight save or die. They may not have a lot but the Gorgon mask is pretty solid for SoD and it gives you the Trample ability, which is at minimum, amusing. The Dread Carapace (stacked with the feet Dreadful Wrath) will let you be a very nasty Fear debuffer.


Thank you all for your answers.

The totemist seems more straightforward to build, since the optimal roles (melee monster with increased mobility and scouting capability) are quite set in stone. I should make some math, and understand how "disturbing" for the average optimization level of my table it is (e.g. how big is the damage output), and how easy would be to switch to another shtick (e.g. melee to ranged or SoS), if the main one doesn't work.

From my limited expirence, they don't outshine a Power Attacking Two-Handed frontliner too much if you don't go pure 100% offensive Melds. They are about on par with a Barbarian as far as optimization goes, they just have a higher floor because of their versatility.



It seems that there is some polarisation regarding his ability to really shine at what he does, and about the actual effectiveness when he tries to switch roles on a daily basis (or even more often). I confess that I get the feeling the class is a bit anemic whenever I read the splatbook. Some more real game experience?

I had one player who was interested in playing one and he seemed to be happy with it. He never felt outshone or screwed over. He was playing a ranged build so he just flew around and shot things with the occasional skill stuff. Seemed to work fine.



EDIT: how bad is the conflict between chakras and magic items? By reading some online thread it looks like VoP is the default solution (well, it's quite obvious), but that's not a very appealing feat for me, especially because its RP implications start to feel a bit awkward and irrealistic after a while...

It can be an issue, but then you remember that just because you have an open sslot doesn't mean that you have to stick a soul meld there. Also, there's a feat for that.

[Kaleph]

Totemists aren't your classic ubercharger where they have a (relatively) low number of attacks that hit super hard. They act more like monsters and have a boatload of attacks that hit at medium weight. They can sort of BS some other stuff, but their primary job is being a frontline fighter like the Barbarian or Ranger.

Yep, this is more or less clear; I've also noticed that, in some handbook online, the total number of attacks is calculated on the basis of assumptions that wouldn't fly at my table. So, say, instead of 12 attacks/rounds or so, I'd get 7-8. This isn't in principle a limitation, since I want anyhow a "solid", and not "broken", damage output.


What the Totemist can do that other frontliners usually can't is drop some BFC and straight save or die. They may not have a lot but the Gorgon mask is pretty solid for SoD and it gives you the Trample ability, which is at minimum, amusing. The Dread Carapace (stacked with the feet Dreadful Wrath) will let you be a very nasty Fear debuffer.

This topic is in general interesting; a fear debuffer, for example, is something I also wish to build someday (but...dreadful wrath? It's a useless feat). What I cannot answer at the moment, since I'm not practiced enough with the system, is if I can combine two strategies at the same time. Like, if I spend enough resources to be a pouncer, am I still able to have a reserve trick (fear or BFC) in my pocket?

PS thank you for the very exhaustive answer!

[Blackhawk748]

This topic is in general interesting; a fear debuffer, for example, is something I also wish to build someday (but...dreadful wrath? It's a useless feat). What I cannot answer at the moment, since I'm not practiced enough with the system, is if I can combine two strategies at the same time. Like, if I spend enough resources spent to be a pouncer, am I still able to have a reserve trick (fear or BFC) in my pocket?

PS thank you for the bery exhaustive answer!

Dreadful Wrath is a wonderful feat as when you charge (which Totemists do a lot) you get a 20ft Frightful Presence ability, this ability will stack with the Dread Carapace's ability so that you can easily stack fear effects. Annoyingly, it will take your Totem slot, but thats why you Double Bind that slot.

And yes you can. Essentia is generally your limiter, but you can swap it around as necessary. Considering all you really need for a bit of BFC is one Soulmeld you can easily just have it bound and then fill it with essentia when needed. For example:

Totem: Dread Carapace
Totem (Double Bind): Girillion Arms
Hands: Sphinx Claws
Throat: Gorgon Mask
Waist: Manticore Belt
Waist (Double Bind):Heathfire Belt
Shoulders: Displacer Mantle

You've got 4 claws, a tail full of spiky death, pounce, fire damage on all natural attacks, 20% concealment and a pair of stacking fear effects. Yes this comes online a bit late, but you can do things like this throughout your career.

[zfs]

Remember that soulmelds only block a body slot when they are bound to that slot's chakra. There's no reason not to always have your max number of soulmelds shaped.

Essentia does end up being your limiting factor, especially as a totemist - you're almost certainly going to take Bonus Essentia for the extra 2. You're also probably going to be taking Double Chakra to be able to bind to your Totem Chakra twice, which doesn't cut off any magic item slots. So at max you'll have three slots occupied by binds - if one of those is a slot where you really need an item, you can take Split Chakra to be able to do so. You do likely end up a bit feat-starved, though.

Edit: I'd say your ability to keep a trick in your pocket really comes online at Level 8, when you get your first use of Rebind Totem Chakra.

[weckar]

FWIW we play typically 4 PCs, so the "jack of all trades, master of none" or "secondary whatever" aren't ideal.

If you're in a group that likes to stick to any form of classic roles, incarnum may not be for you.

Incarnum, as I like to visualise it, it the sticky goo that seeps and sticks into the cracks between those roles.

[AnimeTheCat]

I've never played an MoI class, and I've often considered to build a PC using incarnum, but I have some old-school bias that worked against it so far. The problem is that, although I understand the intrinsic flexibility of the system, I'm afraid I wouldn't have a clear role in- and out-of-combat around which I would select secondary abilities on a daily basis.

So my questions. Are there recommended roles for the base classes?

Is it worth it, to use such a counterintuitive system, or it's simply easier AND better to use a more traditional class?

Are there any special tricks which are unique to the incarnum system? The chance to switch (at least the secondary) roles could be one, but does it really work?

Is there anything the totemist is good to besides übercharging?

I am looking at a deeply incarnum-based PC, i.e. no dip. And also low or no cheese.

Thank you!

While Incarnum is flexible, you can play it as inflexibly as you choose. You could decide to always shape the same soulmelds and pick your feats to specifically do one thing. Both Totemist and Incarnate can do this without issue. What's great is that if your group is only going to being town stuff for a day, you can shape different ones and do different things too. Pick your role and do that role, but you're a switch hitter. Help the rogue in a dual scout/theft/assassination mission. Help the Barbarian front line tank and deal damage. Help the Wizard buff allies and debuff enemies. Or, do any of those things alone and let the others do the other things. Nothing says you can't have a capability in your back pocket, aside from your primary role, that aligns with another party member.

I recommend you pick one thing you're good at and do that thing well, but remember that given a little bit of time (a lot less with incarnate), you can switch your role really effectively.

[Lapak]

Just as a heads up if your group has little experience with Incarnum and you are looking at a full campaign from level 1 up: incarnum builds can tend to feel like they punch a little above their weight in low/mid op at the very earliest levels because of how the system front loads some of your options; don't let performance at levels 1-3 prompt an overreaction in terms of house rules.

[zfs]

Just as a heads up if your group has little experience with Incarnum and you are looking at a full campaign from level 1 up: incarnum builds can tend to feel like they punch a little above their weight in low/mid op at the very earliest levels because of how the system front loads some of your options; don't let performance at levels 1-3 prompt an overreaction in terms of house rules.

Definitely seconding this. I've noticed that to inexperienced players and those unfamiliar with class tiers and relative power in 3.5, Totemist 2 can seem unfairly versatile, since they can access all of their melds from Level 1 and all of their Totem binds from Level 2. But it definitely starts to plateau pretty quickly.

[Kaleph]

Just as a heads up if your group has little experience with Incarnum and you are looking at a full campaign from level 1 up: incarnum builds can tend to feel like they punch a little above their weight in low/mid op at the very earliest levels because of how the system front loads some of your options; don't let performance at levels 1-3 prompt an overreaction in terms of house rules.

Yes, I know this story: "but so it's too strong!", which means actually "this system is new to me, I have no idea how much it may influence game balance, but it does weird things and therefore I don't like it!".
Fortunately I have a very good relationship with my DMs when it comes to presenting and explaining a build.



Yes this comes online a bit late, but you can do things like this throughout your career.

I'd say your ability to keep a trick in your pocket really comes online at Level 8, when you get your first use of Rebind Totem Chakra.

This sounds fair. I'm playing a DFA right now, and it's also pretty limited at the moment in what he can do. Level 8 for a totemist is ok, a binder gets to bind two vestiges at the same level, IIRC. Before level 7 having only a primary active ability can more or less work, unless it's too situational.



I recommend you pick one thing you're good at and do that thing well, but remember that given a little bit of time (a lot less with incarnate), you can switch your role really effectively.

Which translates in my mind into "yes, it does what I expect it does".


EDIT: misc


Dreadful Wrath is a wonderful feat as when you charge (which Totemists do a lot) you get a 20ft Frightful Presence ability, this ability will stack with the Dread Carapace's ability so that you can easily stack fear effects. Annoyingly, it will take your Totem slot, but thats why you Double Bind that slot
AFAIK dreadful wrath affects enemies with less HD than me, and this is almost useless in the campaigns I play. But there are other means to escalate fear, I'm sure.



If you're in a group that likes to stick to any form of classic roles, incarnum may not be for you.
TBH, I'm not sure if this is really the problem, or if I am instead too used to old-school scenarios. Actually, even if I would create an anemic PC, the DM would help making it useful - but this solution wouldn't be very attractive.



Remember that soulmelds only block a body slot when they are bound to that slot's chakra. There's no reason not to always have your max number of soulmelds shaped.

It can be an issue, but then you remember that just because you have an open sslot doesn't mean that you have to stick a soul meld there. Also, there's a feat for that.

Is the problem more compelling for an incarnate than for a totemist?

[Particle_Man]

Why choose between new and traditional when you can have both?

The Cleric 1/Incarnate 1/Cleric 2/Sapphire Hierarch 10 gets you most of the cleric goodies (you lose one level of spellcasting and your turn undead stops advancing) and in exhange you can get 11 levels of incarnate meld shaping (at high levels, feats or spells can bind things to chakras if you want that).

Take the law and incarnum domains. At level 1 get extend spell and midnight metamagic (with the law domain that means you can summon monster I and have it last 4 rounds at level 1 if it is a lawful critter - that ain't a bad perk at low levels!). Take shape soulmeld (blink shirt) at level 3 (because free teleportation is nice even with a low range - also, blink dogs are lawful so it is thematic). Now you have three soulmelds and three essentia points and can practically fall into the prestige class. Note that unlike a lot of incarnate feats, midnight metamagic frees up your essentia points back into your essentia pool once you use them to extend your spells (rather than locking up essentia points for 24 hours).

Be human and Lawful neutral. Dress in blue a lot.

If you don't care about the turn undead DMM cheese that a cleric is capable of (there is such a thing as being *too* powerful), maybe your DM will let you trade in turn undead for smite chaos (and let it stack with the sapphire hierarch's smite chaos). I say this because one of the unearthed arcana options allows one to trade turn undead for smite evil and immunity to fear, and generally smite chaos is thought to be used less often in most campaigns than smite chaos.

The downside is that if your party is, well, chaotic, you may fell a lot like Bert from Sesame Street in a party of Ernies. Or Sam the Eagle on the Muppet Show. Or, well you get the idea.

[zfs]

Is the problem more compelling for an incarnate than for a totemist?

Take anything I say about Incarnate with a grain of salt, since I've only played a Totemist, but I would think it is because they get access to the bind slots earlier and all of their binds occupy a body slot, since they don't get to access the totem bind.

[MisterKaws]

Take anything I say about Incarnate with a grain of salt, since I've only played a Totemist, but I would think it is because they get access to the bind slots earlier and all of their binds occupy a body slot, since they don't get to access the totem bind.

Incarnates are a prime candidate for Vow of Poverty though, since they can get nearly all they need without items, especially the immunities and movement types, which are the main reason for you to want items in the first place.

[weckar]

Incarnates also get a higher essentia capacity to play with and generally more utility melds.

By the way, I know it is memes and all, but are we just ignoring the Soulborn completely?

[Zaq]

Incarnates can have plenty of items even with melds, though. Weapons, armor (before the VERY end of the game), shields, rings, handheld stuff, and slotless stuff is fine. Also stuff that you don’t have a bind for yet. You’ll be pretty high level before you get the heart bind, for instance, so a vest of resistance is an entirely reasonable investment for the majority of your career (just as an example).

And remember that you can take items off on days when you’re using that chakra. Sure, some fundamental numerical stuff might be inconvenient there, but situational stuff like a hat of disguise is still plenty useful even if you have to take it off when you plan to use your crown bind.

You can’t ignore the restriction entirely, but if you’re smart about it, it doesn’t really hamper you that badly.

[MisterKaws]

Incarnates also get a higher essentia capacity to play with and generally more utility melds.

By the way, I know it is memes and all, but are we just ignoring the Soulborn completely?

When the entire class's usefulness is in meme builds, it's a given that it'd be ignored in a discussion about a serious game.

[Kaleph]

By the way, I know it is memes and all, but are we just ignoring the Soulborn completely?

Not at all, what are you thinking? I've studied the system enough to know that in Magic of Incarnum there are THREE base classes: the incarnate and the totemist.

[Troacctid]

AFAIK dreadful wrath affects enemies with less HD than me, and this is almost useless in the campaigns I play. But there are other means to escalate fear, I'm sure.
Dreadful Wrath works regardless of HD. You might be thinking of Frightful Presence, from Draconomicon. (The two stack, though.)


Is the problem more compelling for an incarnate than for a totemist?
Slightly, because one of the totemist's binds will be taken up by a totem chakra, which doesn't use a magic item slot. I don't think it's a big deal.


Incarnates are a prime candidate for Vow of Poverty though, since they can get nearly all they need without items, especially the immunities and movement types, which are the main reason for you to want items in the first place.
The real problem is that there aren't any good Exalted feats for them to take. There's Nymph's Kiss, which is good for everyone, and maybe Touch of Golden Ice could be nice with lightning gauntlets, but then what? Defender of the Homeland? Holy Radiance? Plus, it's not like there aren't great slotless items even if you could fill up every item slot with a chakra bind—which, btw, you can't.


By the way, I know it is memes and all, but are we just ignoring the Soulborn completely?
Yes.

[tyckspoon]

By the way, I know it is memes and all, but are we just ignoring the Soulborn completely?


Soulborn has basically two things going for it: Their level 2 immunity can give you a useful (if narrow) defense, and Thunderstep Boots are pretty cool. As a dip, it's basically a variant Paladin, so you can use it for the same things you might use Paladin for (eg, in a Sorcadin build or similar but it's not as good because +Cha to Saves is pretty awesome.) If you want Thunderstep Boots to bolt onto your pouncing Totemist, it's a feat selection away. Other than that you get absolutely terrible meldshaping and a bad Smite attack - it's like being a Paladin minus basically everything that can make a Paladin good (ACFs, additional spellcasting, feat support Smites/Turn Undead/improving spellcasting, etc.) So.. yeah, we're ignoring the Soulborn completely.

[Kaleph]

Dreadful Wrath works regardless of HD. You might be thinking of Frightful Presence, from Draconomicon. (The two stack, though.).

If you are right, then I regret not taking the feat for my DFA (who will do some fear-related stuff at higher level).

I don't want to start a RAW discussion (eventually we can PM), but at least I want to show where I'm coming from.

Dreadful wrath says explicitly that "you gain the frightful presence special ability".

The frightful presence special ability isn't a term created specifically for this feat, but it has actually a RAW meaning:

Frightful Presence (Ex)

This special quality makes a creature’s very presence unsettling to foes. It takes effect automatically when the creature performs some sort of dramatic action (such as charging, attacking, or snarling). Opponents within range who witness the action may become*frightened*or*shaken. Actions required to trigger the ability are given in the creature’s descriptive text. The range is usually 30 feet, and the duration is usually 5d6 rounds. This ability affects only opponents with fewer Hit Dice or levels than the creature has. An affected opponent can resist the effects with a successful*Will save*(DC 10 + ½ frightful creature’s racial HD + frightful creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). An opponent that succeeds on the*saving throw*is immune to that same creature’s frightful presence for 24 hours.

Emphasis mine. Or is it a known topic and it has been already demonstrated that the text I've posted is irrelevant?

PS still going through all the advice. You had really a lot of knowledge to share.

PPSS @Troacctid: your breakdown of the melds sorted by purpose, that you've listed some posts ago, is actually better and more practical as the MoI list itself and of the guides I've found online, BTW.

[Troacctid]

If you are right, then I regret not taking the feat for my DFA (who will do some fear-related stuff at higher level).

I don't want to start a RAW discussion (eventually we can PM), but at least I want to show where I'm coming from.

Dreadful wrath says explicitly that "you gain the frightful presence special ability".

The frightful presence special ability isn't a term created specifically for this feat, but it has actually a RAW meaning:


Emphasis mine. Or is it a known topic and it has been already demonstrated that the text I've posted is irrelevant?
Dreadful Wrath says it affects any opponent, not just opponents with lower HD than you. Specific beats general. 🤷

[zfs]

By the way, I know it is memes and all, but are we just ignoring the Soulborn completely?

I like to try and boost low tier classes. I'm a vocal Knight advocate because they can do some nice things, including some that are almost unique. I tried to find some uses for Mountebank (and did a homebrew progression for them somewhere on this board that baked the Fiendish template into their class features slowly). Through Zaq's guide I know that Truenamer has some neat tricks (and again, some are unique) that aren't named Conjunctive Gate. Soulborn....I just can't find a reason to use it outside of "trying to use Soulborn." If you're just in love with Thunderstep Boots you could always take Shape Soulmeld.

Edit: Also, can't you buy any item slotless by doubling the price? Or is that only if you're making it yourself?

[Kaleph]

Edit: Also, can't you buy any item slotless by doubling the price? Or is that only if you're making it yourself?

Actually, all the rules for the creation of the slotless item are given, so theoretically that item exists - more or less as any other published item exists in theory. Probably less so, since you may see it as a sort of custom item.

At my table, that wouldn't be a problem, since the DM would probably rule that it isn't available in a common magic shop, but they can create it for you, given the time (unless the object is considered broken or unbalanced for any reason).

This approach would severely affect the WBL, tho, so it can be used on a limited amount of items. I guess this would still be at least a partial solution to the problem.

[Zaq]

By the way, I know it is memes and all, but are we just ignoring the Soulborn completely?

I mean, WotC did...

(Slightly more seriously, they get about two and a half interesting unique melds, and it’s best to just poach from them via feats, because their alleged meldshaping ability is beyond anemic. They have basically no support and seriously insufficient class features.

I admit that it might be fun to play around and see what can be done to spin its crap into gold as a challenge, but we have to be clear-eyed about the fact that they’re really never the best choice for any situation after you snag the level 2 immunity.)

[Blackhawk748]

AFAIK dreadful wrath affects enemies with less HD than me, and this is almost useless in the campaigns I play. But there are other means to escalate fear, I'm sure.

Dreadful Wrath has no HD limit, you're thinking of Frightful Presence from Draconomicon. Its why Dreadful Wrath is always the first one recommended.

Edit:Ninja'd


Is the problem more compelling for an incarnate than for a totemist?

Generally yes. Totemists lack some of the pure utility Melds that the Incarnate has, so they may need a few items, but generally they can survive fine without hte Christmas Tree. Just buy neat other items, like the Rod of Ropes.



By the way, I know it is memes and all, but are we just ignoring the Soulborn completely?

Yes, because its terrible unless your DM fixes it. Like CW Samurai terrible


I like to try and boost low tier classes. I'm a vocal Knight advocate because they can do some nice things, including some that are almost unique. I tried to find some uses for Mountebank (and did a homebrew progression for them somewhere on this board that baked the Fiendish template into their class features slowly). Through Zaq's guide I know that Truenamer has some neat tricks (and again, some are unique) that aren't named Conjunctive Gate. Soulborn....I just can't find a reason to use it outside of "trying to use Soulborn." If you're just in love with Thunderstep Boots you could always take Shape Soulmeld.


The Knight actually does stuff though. I can make a lvl 20 Knight that won't suck at every level of play, I can't say that for the Soulborn.

[AnimeTheCat]

Not sure that I've seen it dropped, so I'll drop the meldshaper guide by shneekeythelost in here. Great read for all the meldshaper classes.
here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?215723-Incarnum-and-YOU-a-reference-guide)

[MisterKaws]

Yes, because its terrible unless your DM fixes it. Like CW Samurai terrible

CW Samurai is actually almost an auto-win against sentient(non-caster) things, as long as you optimize Staredown with Imperious Command, so still better than Soulborn.

[Blackhawk748]

CW Samurai is actually almost an auto-win against sentient(non-caster) things, as long as you optimize Staredown with Imperious Command, so still better than Soulborn.

It's still absolutely trash. just because CW Samurai is .5% less trash doesn't stop both of them from being horrible. Frankly, I find it easier to fix the Soulborn than the CW Samurai.

[MisterKaws]

It's still absolutely trash. just because CW Samurai is .5% less trash doesn't stop both of them from being horrible. Frankly, I find it easier to fix the Soulborn than the CW Samurai.

Soulborn needs extra meldshaping, and Samurai needs to affect mindless creatures. For Samurai it'd be maybe a class feature at 11~15 and it'd be fine. For Soulborn you just add one more essentia every few levels and give it two or three more melds.

Both are stupid easy to fix.

[weckar]

Now there's an optimization battle I wouldn't mind seeing...

[Kaleph]

Why choose between new and traditional when you can have both?

The Cleric 1/Incarnate 1/Cleric 2/Sapphire Hierarch 10 gets you most of the cleric goodies (you lose one level of spellcasting and your turn undead stops advancing) and in exhange you can get 11 levels of incarnate meld shaping (at high levels, feats or spells can bind things to chakras if you want that).

You are right and I can totally dig the idea; in a similar fashion, anima mage/tenebrous apostate are also the best solution, in my eyes, to solve the "binder dilemma". If one's scared that the class is anemic, well, the PC is still a cleric or a wizard with a minimum investment.
I don't know why, I'm actually tempted to go full incarnate, instead, and learn/test the system in its essence. I'll save your advice for a later time.



Take the law and incarnum domains. At level 1 get extend spell and midnight metamagic (with the law domain that means you can summon monster I and have it last 4 rounds at level 1 if it is a lawful critter - that ain't a bad perk at low levels!). Take shape soulmeld (blink shirt) at level 3 (because free teleportation is nice even with a low range - also, blink dogs are lawful so it is thematic). Now you have three soulmelds and three essentia points and can practically fall into the prestige class. Note that unlike a lot of incarnate feats, midnight metamagic frees up your essentia points back into your essentia pool once you use them to extend your spells (rather than locking up essentia points for 24 hours).

Be human and Lawful neutral. Dress in blue a lot.

If you don't care about the turn undead DMM cheese that a cleric is capable of (there is such a thing as being *too* powerful), maybe your DM will let you trade in turn undead for smite chaos (and let it stack with the sapphire hierarch's smite chaos). I say this because one of the unearthed arcana options allows one to trade turn undead for smite evil and immunity to fear, and generally smite chaos is thought to be used less often in most campaigns than smite chaos.

I do like dual-progression PrC with legal entry at level 4; the expenditure of feat is somehow costly, but I guess those feats are useful anyhow. I'm not in the mood of clerics, though, and especially not in the mood for DMM:persist. Turn undead would definitely be something to homebrew, possibly exchanging it and smite chaos for tenebrous rebuke (my current campaign is undead-intensive). Since we play in an homebrew setting (so adaptations are basically a must), and the sapphire hierarch's description itself suggests to alter the flavor/alignment/domain of the class, it would be even possible to get rid of the lawful restriction...
But as I said, I'd prefer that my first experience with the incarnate is as "pure" as it gets...



The downside is that if your party is, well, chaotic, you may fell a lot like Bert from Sesame Street in a party of Ernies. Or Sam the Eagle on the Muppet Show. Or, well you get the idea.

Yes, I know, Bert the eagle. Sam from Sesame street. I know what you mean, I hear you loud and clear! (https://youtu.be/yLZiWr2kW4U).

[Particle_Man]

An odd analogy for incarnate/totemist comes from Star Trek. You have your spaceship which can be retrofitted by engineers between missions (you choose your soul melds daily) but once on a mission your main concern is where to put the power from your dilithium crystals. Shields? Phasers? Holodeck? Life support? Engines? (you decide where your essentia points go on a round by round basis).

So if you ever wanted to Captain the Enterprise, now is your chance! The incarnate is your vessel!

[Awakeninfinity]

I personally think that Incandescent Champion would be the best introduction to Incarnum. ( I also think that combining Incandescent Champion and Incarnum Blade and the soulborn meld shaping progression would make a fine base class; but that might be because I've yet to actually play any of those things.)

[Zaq]

I personally think that Incandescent Champion would be the best introduction to Incarnum. ( I also think that combining Incandescent Champion and Incarnum Blade and the soulborn meld shaping progression would make a fine base class; but that might be because I've yet to actually play any of those things.)

Incarnum blade has mechanics with names that sound similar to what real incarnum classes use, but seriously, the similarities end there. Its mechanics really have no connection to how real incarnum works. The class really ticks me off as a result. What was even the goal there?

Incandescent champion is a great concept, but the execution is sufficiently awful that I feel like it’s a poor introduction to anything.

[Efrate]

Incarnate's biggest issue is the alignment restriction which severely limits/defines your combat style. Lawful incarnates get good to hit and kind of tank, chaotic are sub par ranged damage dealers, evil get damage but their to hit will be pretty awful, and good are the tankiest but tanking isn't the greatest strategy in general. Half Bab really hurts.

You do get to play essentially the rogue roles better than the rogue on a day to day basis barring sneak attack. You get a lot of cool stuff and are super versatile but your weakest role is combat. Necrocarnum helps, with soulspark familiar and necrocarnate zombies you can bring an ok amount but depending in your optimization level at the table you might be close to dead weight. If you are lower op or creative however you can shine in pretty much every other place and be passable in combat.

[Troacctid]

Incarnate's biggest issue is the alignment restriction which severely limits/defines your combat style. Lawful incarnates get good to hit and kind of tank, chaotic are sub par ranged damage dealers, evil get damage but their to hit will be pretty awful, and good are the tankiest but tanking isn't the greatest strategy in general. Half Bab really hurts.
I think the aligned melds are actually not very important except for the necrocarnum zombie. If you look at the key soulmelds I posted above, they're mostly alignment-agnostic; only minionmancy really pushes you in a particular direction. BAB is also a real concern, but the fact that you're making a lot of your attacks against touch AC helps a ton.

[illyahr]

Totemist plays more melee with versatility that allows it to do things to surprise, debilitate, or buff. A good class that can fit most groups as it can shore up the weak points a group may have.

Incarnate plays more medium range. It gets the most Essentia of any class and has a lot of different means to attack and defend that don't require actual rolls.

Soulborn is crap. Interestingly enough, this forum actually has a homebrew melee essentia-using class called the Esper Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?169532-Esper-Knight-Essentia-meets-The-Force) that functions a lot better without breaking too much. It uses essentia to replicate Jedi powers from Star Wars.