(3.5) Rod of Widen Spell

[Biggus]

There's no metamagic rod of Widen Spell in 3.5, is there any reason not to let someone create one?

[Zaq]

Nah, it’s balanced with the other metamagic feats and therefore with the other metamagic rods. If you allow MM rods at all, there’s no real reason not to allow one for Woden.

[RedMage125]

Didn't one of the Complete books (either Arcane or Mage) have Metamagic Rodfs for some of the other MM feats? I could be mistaken.

[Mike Miller]

Didn't one of the Complete books (either Arcane or Mage) have Metamagic Rodfs for some of the other MM feats? I could be mistaken.

MiC has some

[Biggus]

Yeah, MiC has Chain, Reach, Sculpt and Substitution. As far as I know those are the only non-PHB ones in 3.5.

There are rods for all the other PHB metamagic feats other than Still and Heighten, both of which have fairly obvious reasons why they're not included, leaving Widen a fairly conspicuous absence. I can't see any reason not to allow it (the high price alone limits its usefulness) but I wanted to check there wasn't something I was missing.

[Dimers]

There are rods for all the other PHB metamagic feats other than Still and Heighten, both of which have fairly obvious reasons why they're not included ...

Huh. I wouldn't mind seeing a metamagic rod for Heighten, actually. The lesser rod could heighten a 0th, 1st or 2nd level spell to 3rd, e.g.

[Biggus]

Huh. I wouldn't mind seeing a metamagic rod for Heighten, actually. The lesser rod could heighten a 0th, 1st or 2nd level spell to 3rd, e.g.

The difficulty is pricing it, the others are priced both on the level increase of the feat and the spell levels it can affect. I suppose you could have a rod which could raise the spell level by 1,2,3 or 4 priced similarly to the existing ones, but I'm not sure whether they would be worth what they'd cost.

[Seerow]

The difficulty is pricing it, the others are priced both on the level increase of the feat and the spell levels it can affect. I suppose you could have a rod which could raise the spell level by 1,2,3 or 4 priced similarly to the existing ones, but I'm not sure whether they would be worth what they'd cost.

I'd just price it like a +2 metamagic rod, and have it give a flat +2 to the save DC of a spell at the appropriate level. Easy balanced and simple.

[ericgrau]

The thing about a heighten rod compared to the feat is that the feat is much more versatile. It lets you pick any number of levels you want. And even then it's still a mediocre feat. Unless pulling some form of combo cheese, I'd take it pretty much never on prepared casters and only sometimes on spontaneous casters. A rod with a fixed level would be even less useful.

Letting it increase lower level spells by a greater amount would be nice to add a little versatility. You'd need a made up table to figure it out though, since metamagic rod pricing doesn't follow a great pattern to begin with.

Something like:
Lesser rod: 1=>3, 2=>4, 3=>4
Regular rod: 1=>4, 2=>5, 3=>5, 4=>6, 5=>6
Greater rod: 1=>6, 2=>7, 3=>7, 4=>8, 5=>8, 6=>9, 7=>9, 8=>10, 9=>10
That's to be priced as a +1 like extend spell.

Oh yeah for the original question. Yeah widen seems totally fine and not broken at all. Dunno why it was left out to begin with. Maybe because widen itself is also a niche feat that is a little weak. So perhaps the rod would be even less popular. I mean 14,000 gp to widen your fireballs, sleet storms and stinking clouds? Realistically you're picking that up at levels 9-11, when you already have 5th-6th level spells of your own. Yeah, other rods are expensive too for a limited return, but it seems hard to find even a niche application for the widen rod.

[Biggus]

Oh yeah for the original question. Yeah widen seems totally fine and not broken at all. Dunno why it was left out to begin with. Maybe because widen itself is also a niche feat that is a little weak. So perhaps the rod would be even less popular. I mean 14,000 gp to widen your fireballs, sleet storms and stinking clouds? Realistically you're picking that up at levels 9-11, when you already have 5th-6th level spells of your own. Yeah, other rods are expensive too for a limited return, but it seems hard to find even a niche application for the widen rod.

Yeah, I thought +3 seemed expensive for Widen myself, I've considered dropping it to +2 as it doesn't seem to see much use as-is.

As for uses, I was mostly thinking of Glitterdust, Widened and Heightened, as a spell for a high-level Sorcerer.

[RedMage125]

Yeah, MiC has Chain, Reach, Sculpt and Substitution. As far as I know those are the only non-PHB ones in 3.5.

There are rods for all the other PHB metamagic feats other than Still and Heighten, both of which have fairly obvious reasons why they're not included, leaving Widen a fairly conspicuous absence. I can't see any reason not to allow it (the high price alone limits its usefulness) but I wanted to check there wasn't something I was missing.

Yeah, I can't see a metamagic rod of Still Spell, on account of you need to hold the rod to use it, lol.

I see people'e suggestions for Heighten, but I'm not entirely convinced. I still think those 2 metamagic feats need to be the only ones without rods.

[ericgrau]

Yeah, I thought +3 seemed expensive for Widen myself, I've considered dropping it to +2 as it doesn't seem to see much use as-is.

As for uses, I was mostly thinking of Glitterdust, Widened and Heightened, as a spell for a high-level Sorcerer.

Since I've never ever seen widen used nor an opportunity to use it myself, I think +2 is a good idea. I think it's meant more for mass army combat. Even then making it a +2 won't break anything, and at +3 PCs never ever use it. Even at +2 I think PCs still won't use it most of the time, and it'll only see some use on large battlefields. If an ability is so weak it never sees use it may as well not exist, so yeah it needs the buff.

Glitterdust is a so-so backup to heighten at high level only because it's SR no. Yeah, it really needs widen to make it a better backup... but if you point that out people might notice why it's so much weaker than web, among a couple other reasons. And I think some people are overly in love with that spell from all the romanticizing of stories of "LBEG/BBEG/tough guy rolled a 3, BBEG done, wizards one shot everything and are so OP". And actually it's a skill check and a 50% miss chance on a failed save, but good look for the DM to know that.

I likewise think enlarge spell should be +0 metamagic, as long as you have the feat. Only thing I've ever found to use it with was shield other. NPC spell snipers might kinda like it, but even for them it's kinda meh at +1. Even they, the best case, usually wouldn't take it at +1. Even at +0 PCs won't be fighting to nab it and it'll be only ok for spell snipers. So I think +0 is a good place for it.

[Biggus]

Since I've never ever seen widen used nor an opportunity to use it myself, I think +2 is a good idea. I think it's meant more for mass army combat. Even then making it a +2 won't break anything, and at +3 PCs never ever use it. Even at +2 I think PCs still won't use it most of the time, and it'll only see some use on large battlefields. If an ability is so weak it never sees use it may as well not exist, so yeah it needs the buff.

Has anyone reading this ever seen a PC take Widen Spell?


Glitterdust is a so-so backup to heighten at high level only because it's SR no. Yeah, it really needs widen to make it a better backup... but if you point that out people might notice why it's so much weaker than web, among a couple other reasons.

Well, as well as being SR: no, there's also no save against the revealing invisible creatures/ making hiding almost impossible part. See Invisibility is personal only, and True Seeing is expensive and limited to 120ft, so Glitterdust is one of the relatively few easy ways to make them visible to the whole team. Also the Will save against the blinding is not mind-affecting, which makes it useful against a wide range of creatures.

Web was one of the other spells I was considering using with Widen and Heighten, although I was concerned that at high levels a DC20 strength check would be quite easy for a lot of opponents.


I likewise think enlarge spell should be +0 metamagic, as long as you have the feat. Only thing I've ever found to use it with was shield other. NPC spell snipers might kinda like it, but even for them it's kinda meh at +1. Even they, the best case, usually wouldn't take it at +1. Even at +0 PCs won't be fighting to nab it and it'll be only ok for spell snipers. So I think +0 is a good place for it.

Interesting idea. So in effect it wouldn't be a metamagic feat any more, it'd just double the range of all your close, medium and long range spells?

[Debatra]

Well, there's possibly the chance you could be paralyzed while already holding the Still rod and having a Silenced spell or spell without Verbal components prepared, but that's rather niche. Or, perhaps a more likely situation, you hold the Still rod behind your back to try to cast unnoticed.

There's little reason not to let a Still rod exist, but also little reason to get one anyway.

[ericgrau]

Well, as well as being SR: no, there's also no save against the revealing invisible creatures/ making hiding almost impossible part. See Invisibility is personal only, and True Seeing is expensive and limited to 120ft, so Glitterdust is one of the relatively few easy ways to make them visible to the whole team. Also the Will save against the blinding is not mind-affecting, which makes it useful against a wide range of creatures.

Web was one of the other spells I was considering using with Widen and Heighten, although I was concerned that at high levels a DC20 strength check would be quite easy for a lot of opponents.

The invisible thingy is a great reason to scroll glitterdust for 150 gp at higher level. Not really to prepare it. By then you have many better spells in general though. It's a so-so backup option at high level, especially for sorcerers to heighten it for the SR no. I doubt I'd ever prepare heightened glitterdust as a prepared caster. Yes web does lose usefulness as you get into high level due to high str foes, but again by then you can replace it with many better spells anyway. At high level I wouldn't use web even as a so-so backup. Mid level it's still a nice backup though. High level I'd probably have black tentacles or sleet storm as a "low level" backup or something like that. So personally I wouldn't heighten web. Maybe widen (if it costs +2), though usually sleet storm works instead. On a sorcerer widened web works better because for only 1 spell known you have both a small version when needed and a large version, rather than learning both web and sleet storm. Drawback is needing 2 vertical objects to anchor it to. Which usually isn't a problem but rarely it is. OTOH the bonus is it delays foes much more than sleet storm does, so often they simply lose the fight even on a passed save.



Interesting idea. So in effect it wouldn't be a metamagic feat any more, it'd just double the range of all your close, medium and long range spells?
Yeah pretty much.