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CrazedGoblin
2007-10-06, 04:30 PM
A member of our group is playing a warlock and he is really into it and stuff, ive allways experianced warlocks to be abit useless at times but some of their invocations are quite good, any thoughts?

Sucrose
2007-10-06, 04:38 PM
Well, warlocks are generally considered weak, but they can be pretty useful, so long as the party isn't facing anything horrifically lethal (i.e. so long as powergaming is a bonus, rather than essential), and they choose their invocations with care.

I learned the hard way how very much a Warlock with nothing but an eldritch blast and an essence for said blast sucks. I strongly recommend that he take something more useful at level one, like Baleful Utterance, maybe that fog cloud one, but something that provides some utility beyond minor damage and a penalty to opponents.

Also, they can become Nightwing to the wizardly Batman if they cheese out their UMD as much as possible.

I personally prefer the fey fluff, but I've always wanted to do a warlock that was the result of wizardly research, a constructed soul. I imagine that that would be pretty cool.

Incidentally, what exactly are you asking about? Do you want advice for yourself or your friend? Do you just want to poll the community on warlock functionality?

Solo
2007-10-06, 04:46 PM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=751117

CrazedGoblin
2007-10-06, 05:24 PM
Incidentally, what exactly are you asking about? Do you want advice for yourself or your friend? Do you just want to poll the community on warlock functionality?

mainly peace of mind about the warlock class :smallbiggrin:

AslanCross
2007-10-06, 05:26 PM
Hellfire Warlock improves his blasting ability. But yeah, they're really not super strong. Not completely weak, though. They're okay in my book.

CrazedGoblin
2007-10-06, 05:29 PM
my main experiance from them comes from NWN2 i couldnt find a better use for them than to spam eldritch blast to fill up their combat que, i guess PnP is abit broader :smallbiggrin:

AslanCross
2007-10-06, 05:42 PM
Yeah, I was quite disappointed when they didn't put Hellfire Warlock into NWN2's expansion. Keep in mind though that Warlocks had very little useful invocations in that game to begin with. The PnP Warlock has a few more that might be useful. Oh yeah, keep in mind that a Warlock is possibly the only class that can UMD better than a rogue. If their Eldritch Blasts aren't up to par, they might want to switch to that wand of lightning bolt. Once they get vitriolic blast, though, they get pretty decent. It bypasses both energy resistance and spell resistance.

JackMage666
2007-10-06, 06:39 PM
Warlocks are very good on their own. Not so much with a group. If they could share more invocations, they'd be much better team players. As is, they're very solitary.

Kaelik
2007-10-06, 07:45 PM
Once they get vitriolic blast, though, they get pretty decent. It bypasses both energy resistance and spell resistance.

No it doesn't. It is Acid damage, and as such, is reduced by Acid resistance.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-06, 07:50 PM
They can be really fun, and in a small party that has loads of encounters per day, they can be useful. The UMD and careful choice of invocations can make you pretty good. The invisible, spider climbing, thing works really well for some lower level stuff. At high levels, they aren't that great, but at lower levels, they can actually be very useful.

Dode
2007-10-06, 08:01 PM
Warlocks are pretty keen in my book. Kind of like a magical, slightly superior Rogue that relies on magic instead of skill-points (Darkvision + Invisibility invocations? Holy crap yes.) . Or, you could simply pour all of your blast shapes and invocations into making the ultimate blaster, but that can be a bit boring imo after the 500th solid round of "I cast Eldritch Blast".

While significantly less powerful than a true caster, they can truly go the distance after the casters have been exhausted (and yes that's taking Reserve Feats into account. Abilities granted by them are nowhere near the usefulness of a given Warlock power [as it should be]). So to an extent the Warlock's usefulness depends on your DM's providence of encounters per day, and your party's inclination to get in situations where retreat to refresh the wizard's spells isn't easy.

Alleine
2007-10-07, 01:39 AM
Warlocks aren't the strongest class, but I would never say useless. We have a TWF three-kreen in my group who can, on occasion, get 20 attacks in one round. He deals the most damage, but everyone is still in awe of my Warlock when the enemy goes from 17 damage to 100 and something in one hit. I'm also pretty much the only guy capable of killing through massive damage.

Worst case scenario with a Warlock would be with another caster in the party, (we don't have a single full caster) who constantly surpasses the Warlock.

Aside from utility, they are extremely fun to play, just hope you run into enemies with items for the warlock to UMD, that'll make him feel loved.

Velvet Elvis
2007-10-07, 01:52 AM
I happen to like the concept of warlocks. I do, however, think they might benefit from separate progression lines for EBlast augmentations and utilitarian invocations so that they have a few more, overall, than they do now. Primarily at mid- to high-levels.

They seem to work best in low-level games, low-entropy games with moderate to low-magic levels, games where resources are not available around every corner, etc. I.e. not the typical game.

I suppose it's possible to make a warlock with more traditional combat skills augmented by a number of non-EB invocations that could make them fairly worthy. Raising dead, charming monsters, etc. and so forth, along with average personal combat skills.

No doubt there are those who've pored over these options in various optimizing threads. But yes, the routine conclusion at high-level, for purposes of raw damage as compared to other classes, is they fall behind.

More EB augmentations and/or more applicable at one time, could help raise them. Of course, as someone else already said, after the 500th round of EBlasting, even good results get dull. Then again, it's not all that much differen from the 500th raging swing of a sword, is it?

AslanCross
2007-10-07, 02:52 AM
No it doesn't. It is Acid damage, and as such, is reduced by Acid resistance.

Ah, true. My bad.

Somebloke
2007-10-07, 04:32 AM
I like the concept of warlocks a lot- the idea of slowly turning into an outsider is, in my opinion, what the Sorcerer should have been. I would have ditched the eldritch blast for a number of 1/5 rounds attack types though.

PlatinumJester
2007-10-07, 05:45 AM
Warlocks aren't the strongest class, but I would never say useless. We have a TWF three-kreen in my group who can, on occasion, get 20 attacks in one round. He deals the most damage, but everyone is still in awe of my Warlock when the enemy goes from 17 damage to 100 and something in one hit. I'm also pretty much the only guy capable of killing through massive damage.

Worst case scenario with a Warlock would be with another caster in the party, (we don't have a single full caster) who constantly surpasses the Warlock.

Aside from utility, they are extremely fun to play, just hope you run into enemies with items for the warlock to UMD, that'll make him feel loved.

Our party doesn't have a caster but we do have a psion (FYI I'm in the same party as CrazedGoblin).

So far the Warlock has outdone the psion 10 fold.

hippie_dwarf
2007-10-07, 07:34 AM
Our party doesn't have a caster but we do have a psion (FYI I'm in the same party as CrazedGoblin).

So far the Warlock has outdone the psion 10 fold.

It's not my fault that no one else was even slightly concerned about the shifter with bucket loads of scrolls attacking us from the side. Plus the cave in didn't help :smalltongue:. Plus i'm an Ardent, not a Psion

CrazedGoblin
2007-10-07, 09:33 AM
It's not my fault that no one else was even slightly concerned about the shifter with bucket loads of scrolls attacking us from the side. Plus the cave in didn't help :smalltongue:. Plus i'm an Ardent, not a Psion

Your time will come hehe:smallbiggrin:

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-07, 09:44 AM
Eldritch Glaive is what Hideous Blow should have been.

That being said, limiting the EB to one Shape and multiple Essences, rather than one of each, would definitely improve his flexibility.

PlatinumJester
2007-10-07, 12:22 PM
Your time will come hehe:smallbiggrin:

Sure it will.

CrazedGoblin
2007-10-07, 12:26 PM
Sure it will.

who gave away EVERYTHING they had to have a crappy +1 greatsword??:smalltongue:

Velvet Elvis
2007-10-07, 01:59 PM
Hey, you're hijacking your own thread. There's a law or something.

triforcel
2007-10-07, 04:50 PM
The warlock is probably one of my favorite classes, especially if you take a few rogue levels too (or even better a gestalt warlock+rogue, but that's only gestalt campaigns). They don't have a lot of invocations that can aid the party directly, but that's part of the fun of the class. If you really need to be able to buff or heal the other party members you can easily make a wand yourself to cast almost any spell that another class has access to. Even without wands, most of the invocations are quite useful. Eldritch spear can help you snipe, hideous blow let's you melee if you really want to. Shatter at will is fun, as is invisibility, see invisibility, flight, darkness, see in darkness and magical darkness, the ability to change into a swarm of bats, those are just a few and only from complete arcane. So yeah, good times.

Velvet Elvis
2007-10-08, 05:54 AM
That is their main strength: they can go all day. (Umm...anyway...)

With the right array of invocations and some time, they can, pwn whole hordes of things with little risk. It just depends on the situations. In fact, a warlock's abilities are often overlooked as excellent tactical tools in conjunction with other party members' focus talents. They tend to get shunted to the side as if they have no contributory value to an entire team simply because their invocations are usually personal.

leperkhaun
2007-10-08, 04:23 PM
warlocks are usefull. While they cant match wizards as batman, they can do a fair job, and they can do ok damage when needed.

Warlocks really shine as gestalt characters, most notably with rogues.

AslanCross
2007-10-08, 04:37 PM
Warlocks really shine as gestalt characters, most notably with rogues.

That would be awesome. Walk Unseen + Sneak Attack.

Person_Man
2007-10-08, 05:42 PM
Warlocks initially sucked. In recent books they've been well supported, making them a much more playable class. In particular, they can easily gain access to Hide in Plain Sight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352), and they have some excellent PrC out there. It really depends on what you want to do with them.