What does a lvl 20 fighter look like?

[TerakasTaranath]

For me it's easy to imagine what most classes look like at level 20. Wizards with their towers and magical servants/guardians and massive libraries. Clerics with temples and fantastic powers and druids with massive groves and such.

But with a fighter hitting max level, what would you imagine? Just a badass warrior? Jon Snow to the max? Obviously they would take magic items, but how would you imagine a "normal" person getting to the level that they can take on demons and monsters thru their training, rather than with arcane magic/divine help.

I'm considering a fighter for Dungeon of The Mad Mage but we'll see, what do you guys think!? Do you have any examples from fantasies?

[LudicSavant]

Captain Levi from Attack on Titan is a start; an example of a mundane human with swords regularly taking on Gargantuan, superpowered beings that could (and do) easily wipe out well-prepared armies. Things like, say, a Gargantuan highly skilled Monk that regenerates like the faster-healing versions of Wolverine and can turn any part of their body diamond hard like Emma Frost, and if it gets a chance to scream can summon an entire army of giants. Or a similar Gargantuan creature that can use shotgun-like attacks that wipe out entire towns and armies. Not only does he take on these foes, but he sometimes goes through entire armadas of giants to do so.

He does so with lightning fast Action Surges that lock down and cripple foes that could, if given even the most minute opening, make pretty much any chance of assault hopeless.

Examples (obviously, spoilers for some of the fights from the show):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQJyCtELWaU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlwrdQscU6M

[Frozenstep]

So a round is 6 seconds. Before you get any features, it takes you 6 seconds to make one attack with your weapon. The way I imagine is it you're ducking and feinting and clashing weapons with your opponent while still trying to stay aware of other threats. You only make one attack roll in 6 seconds because you're taking a while to set up a solid chance at a hit, or waiting for the right time and chance to make an attack that won't open yourself up for a counter, or just aiming your blow against a particularity tough hide. It's not easy without practice.

But of course, you get extra attack, most martials do. That represents a huge jump in your skill, you're no longer poking nervously at your opponent's defenses and missing chances, you're seeing and capitalizing on them quickly. Less time feinting and thinking about how to hit your opponent, more time making threatening swings.

But then fighter, of course, attacks more and more. For a level 20 fighter, they're casually attacking 4 times per turn. At that point, I imagine them to be making one threatening swing after another, but it's not just some dude swinging as fast as he can with no thought, his opponents would be able to find an opening if it was a level 1 fighter trying it and skewer him. No, those 4 attacks have a varying delays, and the fighter is using footwork, and feints using things like shoulder or eye movements. Extra attack (3) is a dance that throws opponents off their game enough that the fighter can make many confident attacks without opponents being able to respond properly. And that's just the low effort stuff they can do all day.

Most monsters with multi-attack aren't able replicate that feat. Instead they rely on having multiple weapons (claws and then a bite, etc).

For fantasies, al'Lan Mandragoran from the Wheel of Time series. Dude is just all around a badass and never has any other tricks to his strength, he's just straight forwardly good with a sword and has the strength and constitution to back it up.

[Nidgit]

As another example, Master Piandao from Avatar: The Last Airbender. A master swordsman with his own school and estate, capable of outmaneuvering magic users with the right techniques.

Fighter is such a generic concept that the trappings of a 4th tier Fighter are more likely to be derived from their subclass than their base class. The same can be said, to a lesser degree, of the Rogue.

[Constructman]

https://youtu.be/3oe0AO2WW04?t=57

(at 0:57)

This is what I imagine high level Fighters to look like.

Actually, just Cu Chulainn from the Fate series in general. That's my image of a Level 20 Fighter.

[noob]

Many of you are overestimating 5e fighter: a level 20 5e fighter is more like rambo with a sword(will definitively survive a few dozen bullets and kill a whole bunch of normal people per turn and will manage to not meet too many persons at once) than like an lone warrior able to kill armies: 500 grouped ranged kobolds will be able to kill most lone level 20 5e fighters so it is not comparable to someone killing entire armies of giants.

[berserker7878]

zaraki kempachi with bankai (bleach) = fighter/barbarian, with big big strength, speed and tanking, juste a ****ing brute like fight to death

yami (black clover): fighter, cut the space and create a blake cut, this skills cut just everythings, badass aura, badass power

zoro ( one piece): fighter, two weapons, speed , stamina, and strength in max possibility, renforcement weapon, multiple attacks

guts ( berserker): fighter, two handed weapon, damned soul, ****ing badass, strength max, consti max , damned armor

[LudicSavant]

Many of you are overestimating 5e fighter: a level 20 5e fighter is more like rambo with a sword(will definitively survive a few dozen bullets and kill a whole bunch of normal people per turn and will manage to not meet too many persons at once) than like an lone warrior able to kill armies: 500 grouped ranged kobolds will be able to kill most lone level 20 5e fighters so it is not comparable to someone killing entire armies of giants.

First, tanking 500 grouped ranged kobolds at once isn't really comparable to the feats shown by the aforementioned giant killer. Levi doesn't beat groups of giants by brute force alone; he takes advantage of cover, surprise, misdirection, evasion, strategy, and/or tactics to do so. Pretty much anything he fights can one shot him if he allows an opening; he is consistently shown to be very cautious to avoid permitting such opportunities. If he was actually surrounded in the open by a group, he'd be in trouble. It's more that he can fight them incredibly consistently and uses smart tactics to divide and conquer and minimize openings than that he would just steamroll 1 vs 100 in a straight fistfight. (Some of the creatures he fights can totally take out armies, but that doesn't mean that Levi can do the same thing any more than Solid Snake has the destructive potential of a nuclear missile just because he can beat Metal Gear).

Second, a well-built and well-played Fighter is capable of a lot. For example, it's actually pretty difficult for 500 grouped mooks to kill a well-built Eldritch Knight with ranged attacks. Even if they could get all 500 to draw a bead on the guy at the same time (easier said than done if the player is smart), the DPR of 500 1d4+2 attacks with +4 to hit against the last Eldritch Knight I had at that level would be... lessee... 8.75 DPR, since only 1 in 400 attacks would hit them.

Kobolds specifically might be able to get around this with pack tactics (increasing their chance to hit to 1 in 20), but in that case they're still looking at an entirely survivable 175 DPR against a character who can eat about 200-300 damage before going down (and has lots of abilities that help them escape and gain tactical advantage). And all it takes is a 5 damage "enters" effect or a little distance to hedge out those little guys.

Third, let's take a look at the "Improvising Damage" section in the DMG to get some idea of the range of durability feats. 10d10 is "wading through a lava stream." 18d10 is "being hit by a crashing flying fortress." 24d10 is "being crushed in the jaws of a moon-sized monster." These figures are all consistently survivable by a level 20 character (though frankly a moon-sized monster just seems like overkill :smalltongue:).

Fourth, as a fun fact, 100 CR 1/8 creatures is only considered a "Hard" encounter (e.g. you're expected to be able to beat multiples a day) for a lone level 20 character without any magic gear. 500 would be a "hard" encounter for 4 level 20s. And in my experience is very doable.

[darknite]

A 20th level fighter is an engine of destruction. They have at least 4 attacks a turn and their primary tools - weapons, armor and shields - do not require attunement, leaving lots of options for magical item enhancement. With 7 ASIs available you can be sure they have high Strength, Con and are resilient in another stat (Wisdom is good to resist fear), with other slots on hand for battle-enhancing feats.

For example, my 16th level Dwarven Battlemaster has a 20 Str, 16 Con and (Resilient) 14 Wisdom. He's a Great Weapon Fighter/Master and Polearm Master armed with a magical halberd and defended by magical plate armor. Rings of Protection and Evasion glint from his gauntleted hands and a silken Cloak of Invisibility graces his shoulders. In his last battle he was striking four times a turn at Advantage (vs those who couldn't see invis) doing 68+3d10+1d4 damage per round and more if he critted/killed a creature, Action Surged and/or utilized Battlemaster Maneuvers. He'll be even more intense by 20th level.

[Aprender]

I imagine that a 20th level fighter is the king that has his/her own army and kingdom.

[nickl_2000]

Legolas. That is what I imagine, someone who can wield many different weapons and kills with lethal efficiency.

[TyGuy]

For me it's easy to imagine what most classes look like at level 20. Wizards with their towers and magical servants/guardians and massive libraries. Clerics with temples and fantastic powers and druids with massive groves and such.

But with a fighter hitting max level, what would you imagine? Just a badass warrior? Jon Snow to the max? Obviously they would take magic items, but how would you imagine a "normal" person getting to the level that they can take on demons and monsters thru their training, rather than with arcane magic/divine help.

I'm considering a fighter for Dungeon of The Mad Mage but we'll see, what do you guys think!? Do you have any examples from fantasies?

You're asking about what their typical/cliche life and setting look like right?

If so, the most common is the "retired" guy that's trying to get away from the past with the simple life. Probably something humble and pastoral. But they can (and often do) snap back into being the pinnacle of a killing machine when called on.

Or a leader of some sort. Warrior-kings are pretty popular.

[nickl_2000]

You're asking about what their typical/cliche life and setting look like right?

If so, the most common is the "retired" guy that's trying to get away from the past with the simple life. Probably something humble and pastoral. But they can (and often do) snap back into being the pinnacle of a killing machine when called on.

Or a leader of some sort. Warrior-kings are pretty popular.

So Ned Stark?

[darknite]

You're asking about what their typical/cliche life and setting look like right?

If so, the most common is the "retired" guy that's trying to get away from the past with the simple life. Probably something humble and pastoral. But they can (and often do) snap back into being the pinnacle of a killing machine when called on.

Or a leader of some sort. Warrior-kings are pretty popular.

I see more of a mighty warrior who's survived long enough to be at the top of their powers. Eomer or Sanjuro come to mind.

[bluepilgrim3]

So Ned Stark?

Yes. Preferably the 5’10” version.

[GlenSmash!]

For fantasies, al'Lan Mandragoran from the Wheel of Time series. Dude is just all around a badass and never has any other tricks to his strength, he's just straight forwardly good with a sword and has the strength and constitution to back it up.

Awesome example.


Legolas. That is what I imagine, someone who can wield many different weapons and kills with lethal efficiency.

Another good one.

I'll add Dassem Ultor from Malazan.

[Ignimortis]

Many of you are overestimating 5e fighter: a level 20 5e fighter is more like rambo with a sword(will definitively survive a few dozen bullets and kill a whole bunch of normal people per turn and will manage to not meet too many persons at once) than like an lone warrior able to kill armies: 500 grouped ranged kobolds will be able to kill most lone level 20 5e fighters so it is not comparable to someone killing entire armies of giants.

Honestly, this. People in anime are usually more...destructive than a level 20 5e fighter. They cleave apart hordes with one strike, jump tens or hundreds feet in the air, parry arrows and magic spells, and so on.

Now Legolas or other guys who are just very good and are never/rarely shown being defeated or even hard-pressed in a typical melee are much closer to 5e Fighter. I think in the movies Legolas does do the 4 attacks in 6 seconds thing, even, and a mildly anime-like thing where he hops on falling stones too fast to fall.

Maybe War from Darksiders could be a level 20 Fighter? He's impossibly strong, quick and skilled, but he never does anything too spectacular on his own, without powers granted to him by others or by his weapons, unless we count his Wrath powers as his own, and even then Eldritch Knight can match up?

[Man_Over_Game]

For fantasies, al'Lan Mandragoran from the Wheel of Time series. Dude is just all around a badass and never has any other tricks to his strength, he's just straight forwardly good with a sword and has the strength and constitution to back it up.

Hah! That's exactly who I thought of.

Many of the other examples in the thread rely on magic or superhuman mobility to pull off. The only supernatural thing about him is his sword, which basically has a generic enchantment that every magic sword has, to break through some magical barriers and always stay in perfect condition. Lan is so friggin' powerful and intense, he is surrounded by mages that are capable of summoning storms and elf-level warrior clans that kill each other for sport, and LAN WITH THE SWORD is the guy that gives you the shivers.

The guy just oozes lethality. It doesn't matter what scene he's in, the author does a great job of making sure that the audience is well aware that Lan can kill anyone he wanted to as fast as he could blink. The best part is, you don't really see Lan killing much in order to get that vibe.


To him, your life is just an opinion.

[GlenSmash!]

Hah! That's exactly who I thought of.

Many of the other examples in the thread rely on magic or superhuman mobility to pull off. The only supernatural thing about him is his sword, which basically has a generic enchantment that every magic sword has, to break through some magical barriers and always stay in perfect condition. Lan is so friggin' powerful and intense, he is surrounded by mages that are capable of summoning storms and elf-level warrior clans that kill each other for sport, and LAN WITH THE SWORD is the guy that gives you the shivers.

The guy just oozes lethality. It doesn't matter what scene he's in, the author does a great job of making sure that the audience is well aware that Lan can kill anyone he wanted to as fast as he could blink. The best part is, you don't really see Lan killing much in order to get that vibe.


To him, your life is just an opinion.

Lan's final fight in the series is perhaps the most epic fantasy sword duel ever. I read it over and over again.

[Man_Over_Game]

Lan's final fight in the series is perhaps the most epic fantasy sword duel ever. I read it over and over again.

I'm only on like book 6, so you just made me so friggin' stoked, man.

[LudicSavant]

People in anime are usually more...destructive than a level 20 5e fighter. They cleave apart hordes with one strike, jump tens or hundreds feet in the air, parry arrows and magic spells, and so on.

Except... the example he's replying to doesn't do any of those things you just said.

Edit: That said, I think that some folks are underestimating what a level 20 Fighter is capable of, or even going full Guy at the Gym fallacy ("a guy at the gym can't deflect an arrow!")

Let's look at the books to see some concrete examples of what a level 20 Fighter can do, so that we don't fall into the whole "a Fighter is just a guy at the gym" line of thinking, shall we?

Things a level 20 Fighter can potentially do:

Have 200-300 HP or more, which means that they can...
Survive a fall at terminal velocity. And then do it again. And then again.
Be "crushed in the jaws of a moon-sized monster" or "be hit by a crashing flying fortress" (DMG examples of character durability)
Wade through a lava river and be fine (another one of the DMG examples).
Survive being fired at by an army of archers.
Tank hits from Gargantuan+ creatures (Gargantuan threshold is 20x20 feet of space taken up while fighting. Tarrasque is 50x70 feet just in raw physical dimensions). Just a slight graze from such a being would realistically turn you into much just from the forces involved in moving a body of that size
Have a squad of giants tossing boulders at them which would realistically crush cars.
Survive unlimited bullet wounds, as long as they get a chance to catch their breath between salvos (Champion).
Kill an unlimited number of melee foes attempting to approach them (Cavalier).
Make over 20 attacks in 6 seconds (Samurai with SBD). Note that as Frozenstep points out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23971368&postcount=3), this isn't just representative of how fast you can flail your hands; a single attack in D&D represents something more significant than that.
Destroy a longship with 40 crew and 150 passengers in a matter of seconds.
Do enough DPR with a magic sword to kill a Gargantuan Ancient Dragon with scales stronger than steel before it can even act (multiple subclasses can do this, just takes some optimization)
In terms of scale of adventures, expectations for tier 4 are that "the fate of the world or the fundamental order of the multiverse might hang in the balance in their adventures." Facing dangers that "threaten cities and kingdoms" is down at tier 2. "Threats to whole continents" is tier 3.
According to the CR system, a merely "Hard" encounter for a party size of 1 with no magic items or unusual level of optimization or player skill would be, for instance...

100 kobolds at once with their ranged weapons.
A 200-foot wingspan Roc in the air.Remember that in 5e, a "Hard" encounter is just defined in the DMG as "weaker characters might get taken out of a fight" and have "a slim chance of dying" and you're expected to be able to take on multiple in a standard adventuring day. It's still just in attrition bump territory, and definitely not representative of the maximum challenge a character can expect to take on in a single fight (especially with any magic items, optimization, or strategy).

[TerakasTaranath]

Ok, I see what you guys are saying. I also watched basically every fight from the MCU with Captain America and I got that level 20 fighter vibe in Endgame. You can literally see where he "action surges" :p

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions! It helps me a lot, fighters are my favorite class but at a certain point I'm like eh I don't feel very fantasy anymore, but this helps.

[SociopathFriend]

Think of the epitome of skill.
At max Proficiency, Ability Scores, and presumably a few feats- there is no finer weapon-user than a Fighter.

Legolas and his almost impossible rate of fire and accuracy?
The still man who draws his weapon and slashes his opponent multiple times before sheathing the blade all with a fluid grace?
A mighty warrior who swings a massive axe in an intricate series of twisting strikes- taking limbs with each swing?
The steadfast defender, using shield, armor, and skill to form an insurmountable wall the enemy forces cannot defeat nor pass?

This is the Fighter.

[Frozenstep]

Hah! That's exactly who I thought of.

Many of the other examples in the thread rely on magic or superhuman mobility to pull off. The only supernatural thing about him is his sword, which basically has a generic enchantment that every magic sword has, to break through some magical barriers and always stay in perfect condition. Lan is so friggin' powerful and intense, he is surrounded by mages that are capable of summoning storms and elf-level warrior clans that kill each other for sport, and LAN WITH THE SWORD is the guy that gives you the shivers.

The guy just oozes lethality. It doesn't matter what scene he's in, the author does a great job of making sure that the audience is well aware that Lan can kill anyone he wanted to as fast as he could blink. The best part is, you don't really see Lan killing much in order to get that vibe.


To him, your life is just an opinion.

I remember that the warrior clans (Aiel) are presented as having a low opinion of "wetlander's" general ability to fight and a huge cultural dislike of swords (would never use it themselves, forgot if they also looked down on others who used a sword). And yet if I remember right, the Aiel found a healthy respect for Lan. Keep going man, there are some slow books in that series, but the last 3 books in the series are so worth it.

Anyway, speaking of respect, I think that's one thing that goes into a high level fighter. For us, extra attack (3) is a pure mechanical benefit, it's mechanically strong and fits well with the character, but otherwise doesn't sound too insane (even with action surge you aren't reaching anime levels of crazy). But in a world where high level adventurers are rare, it must be awe-inspiring and terrifying to witness. Even a short demonstration should show just how overwhelmingly skilled the fighter is, finding and creating one opening after another and just immediately throwing out just the right kind of attack to exploit it.

[Dungeon-noob]

I see a distinct lack of what i consider to be a very accurate answer to this question: Guts from Beserk. His whole schtick is being a mortal human who can murder just about anything through determination and skill. Like that time he killed a 100 men in one night, or how he's always killing fools on the battlefield with a single swing, armor or not. That's the kind of image that a lvl 20 fighter evokes in me: not invincible, not unbeatable in combat, just really, really really bloody good at it.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Give them a kingdom.

[darknite]

To use an (American) football analogy...

Tier 1 (level 1-4) fighters are like high school athletes.
Tier 2 (level 5-10) fighters are like college players.
Tier 3 (level 11-16) fighters are like NFL players.
Tier 4 (level 17-20) fighters are like perennial NFL Pro Bowl players.
20th level fighters are like 1st Ballot Hall of Famers.

[LudicSavant]

I see a distinct lack of what i consider to be a very accurate answer to this question: Guts from Beserk.

Guts has already been mentioned. Agree that he seems like a good answer (insofar as I am familiar with Berserk).

[Man_Over_Game]

I remember that the warrior clans (Aiel) are presented as having a low opinion of "wetlander's" general ability to fight and a huge cultural dislike of swords (would never use it themselves, forgot if they also looked down on others who used a sword). And yet if I remember right, the Aiel found a healthy respect for Lan. Keep going man, there are some slow books in that series, but the last 3 books in the series are so worth it.

It's kind of odd, because Aiel culture isn't really explained by anyone who really understands the difference between wetlander (European) and Aiel cultures, so a lot of differences are very misunderstood by both sides. From what I understand, though, they choose not to use swords, but they don't have disdain towards those that use them, unless they're Aiel. Aiel treat it as like a "promise" that they won't use swords, but they don't hold non-Aiel accountable for their promise.

The reveal on why Aiel hate swords was pretty darn cool, if a bit of a logical jump (as in, why are swords bad but other weapons good?).

Last I remember, the weather got fixed and everything went from a year-long worldwide drought to an arctic winter. And Rand resurrected a bunch of people by vaporizing their murderer so bad that time itself vaporized him BEFORE he murdered those people.

Wheel of Time is friggin' dope, yo. Although I kinda don't want to continue. Rand is definitely the most interesting character I've ever seen or read, from anything, ever. And just watching his descent into madness (I mean, he resurrected people by basically erasing their murderer from time itself) is kinda hard to witness. It's not like he can just "choose" to not go insane, either. So I'm just worried about the inevitable switch to the Dark Side.

And then I'd have to hate my favorite character. And that'd suck.

[GlenSmash!]

I'm only on like book 6, so you just made me so friggin' stoked, man.

Oh you're in for a treat, a bit of a slog in the middle but then a treat.

I read the last one in one day and it was a beast of a book. I just couldn't put it down.

[Ignimortis]

Except... the example he's replying to doesn't do any of those things you just said.

Edit: That said, I think that some folks are underestimating what a level 20 Fighter is capable of, or even going full Guy at the Gym fallacy ("a guy at the gym can't deflect an arrow!")

Let's look at the books to see some concrete examples of what a level 20 Fighter can do, so that we don't fall into the whole "a Fighter is just a guy at the gym" line of thinking, shall we?

Things a level 20 Fighter can potentially do:

Have 200-300 HP or more, which means that they can...
Survive a fall at terminal velocity. And then do it again. And then again.
Be "crushed in the jaws of a moon-sized monster" or "be hit by a crashing flying fortress" (DMG examples of character durability)
Wade through a lava river and be fine (another one of the DMG examples).
Survive being fired at by an army of archers.
Tank hits from Gargantuan+ creatures (Gargantuan threshold is 20x20 feet of space taken up while fighting. Tarrasque is 50x70 feet just in raw physical dimensions). Just a slight graze from such a being would realistically turn you into much just from the forces involved in moving a body of that size
Have a squad of giants tossing boulders at them which would realistically crush cars.
Survive unlimited bullet wounds, as long as they get a chance to catch their breath between salvos (Champion).
Kill an unlimited number of melee foes attempting to approach them (Cavalier).
Make over 20 attacks in 6 seconds (Samurai with SBD). Note that as Frozenstep points out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23971368&postcount=3), this isn't just representative of how fast you can flail your hands; a single attack in D&D represents something more significant than that.
Destroy a longship with 40 crew and 150 passengers in a matter of seconds.
Do enough DPR with a magic sword to kill a Gargantuan Ancient Dragon with scales stronger than steel before it can even act (multiple subclasses can do this, just takes some optimization)
In terms of scale of adventures, expectations for tier 4 are that "the fate of the world or the fundamental order of the multiverse might hang in the balance in their adventures." Facing dangers that "threaten cities and kingdoms" is down at tier 2. "Threats to whole continents" is tier 3.
According to the CR system, a merely "Hard" encounter for a party size of 1 with no magic items or unusual level of optimization or player skill would be, for instance...

100 kobolds at once with their ranged weapons.
A 200-foot wingspan Roc in the air.Remember that in 5e, a "Hard" encounter is just defined in the DMG as "weaker characters might get taken out of a fight" and have "a slim chance of dying" and you're expected to be able to take on multiple in a standard adventuring day. It's still just in attrition bump territory, and definitely not representative of the maximum challenge a character can expect to take on in a single fight (especially with any magic items, optimization, or strategy).



Thing is....5e is designed around Fighters being able to deal with even-CR threats. And half of your examples aren't Fighter-exclusive, most martial characters can do that, or do it even better (a barbarian can survive more, a paladin can kill a single target faster, etc.). And since any of the four attacks can very well miss, those don't feel really like true strikes and they usually feel exactly like flailing a sword around at great speed and with some skill (but not much, because +11 to hit is 50% likely to hit AC 21, someone well-versed in defense (Defense style), armored in plate and holding a shield). The disconnect between mechanics and purported fluff is very palpable there.

And the monsters themselves, well, aren't as impressive as they used to be, precisely because otherwise a Fighter wouldn't be able to do much to them. The definition of Tier 4 (and even Tier 3) when applied to 5e classes in general stretches my suspension of disbelief - if I look at the mechanics as presented in the MM, I don't get the feeling that something of CR20 or even five of them can realistically threaten the whole world (even if nobody but heroes are level 6+), unless they already have a huge army and a vast base of resources through DM fiat and preemptive worldbuilding.

For example, if you put a 5e Pit Fiend into a world, it can't do much on its' own. It can shred through a small town, but the capital city of a kingdom? No dice, it just doesn't have the tools to set up a base of operations and it isn't strong enough on its' own. It can't open a gate to the Nine Circles to get an army from there, or to get some loyal servant who can actually infiltrate the mortal realms and create cults and footholds for an invasion, etc, etc.

Same with dragons, who are now mostly just flying firebreathing lizards who are dangerous mostly just because of that, and not because they're also powerful magicians who can leverage that with their impossible intelligence. Scales tougher than steel? Well, yes, the weakest type of ancient dragons has the AC of someone with a plate armor and shield. Even if that someone is level 1. The strongest have the equivalent of +1 plate and +1 shield. I've seen players have more semi-permanent AC at level 7.

Note that further monster books or adventure paths actually give high-level monsters much more in terms of utility (but still not enough, IMO, for them to be credible threats to the world by themselves - a kingdom perhaps) - because most MM enemies are just tough and damaging sacks of meat, which are explicitly Fighter's forte, since the Fighter is pretty much the same.

[LudicSavant]

*snip*

I'm kind of unclear as to what you're trying to get at here. Are you disagreeing that Fighters can do any of the things on that list? If so, which one?


I don't get the feeling that something of CR20 or even five of them can realistically threaten the whole world

Neither do I, and I don't think the book is claiming that either, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. :smallconfused:

Five CR 20 monsters is less than the amount you're expected to fight on an average day at that level. They're not "bosses" for level 20 characters, nor are they supposed to singlehandedly threaten the whole world.

My understanding is that the tiers are talking about the scope and stakes of the campaign, not individual encounters. So, exactly the sort of stuff you were talking about; opening up portals to the Nine Hells and the like.


And half of your examples aren't Fighter-exclusive Intentionally so. The fact that someone else can do something doesn't somehow undermine the fact that the Fighter can do it.


Thing is....5e is designed around Fighters being able to deal with even-CR threats.

The devs actually had quite a lot of commentary saying that they were specifically trying to do more to make monsters that WEREN'T of equal CR an always-relevant part of the DM's toolkit. They specifically wanted to get away from the assumption that you'd always be fighting equal-CR monsters. See for example Rodney Thompson's articles on Bounded Accuracy. Like this one. (http://bluishcertainty.blogspot.com/2016/06/bounded-accuracy.html)



The DM's monster roster expands, never contracts. Although low-level characters probably don't stack up well against higher-level monsters, thanks to the high hit points and high damage numbers of those monsters, as the characters gain levels, the lower-level monsters continue to be useful to the DM, just in greater numbers.


And since any of the four attacks can very well miss, those don't feel really like true strikes and they usually feel exactly like flailing a sword around at great speed and with some skill (but not much, because +11 to hit is 50% likely to hit AC 21, someone well-versed in defense (Defense style), armored in plate and holding a shield). The disconnect between mechanics and purported fluff is very palpable there.

First, I don't think FrozenStep was claiming that every attack would land, just that an attack represents some level of swordplay and maneuvering beyond just moving your arm as fast as you can.

Second, a +11 to-hit and nothing else is pretty lackluster for a Fighter. Even your average Battlemaster is going to be knocking people prone, following up with Advantage, and using Precision Strike if they miss. An Eldritch Knight will be using buffs (like, say, Shadow Blade or Greater Invisibility). An elf Samurai will have a 96% chance to hit AC21 with triple advantage (which they can give to themselves regularly and reliably). And so on and so forth.

[Ignimortis]

I'm kind of unclear as to what you're trying to get at here. Are you disagreeing that Fighters can do any of the things on that list? If so, which one?

No, but I still think they're more of a byproduct of game mechanics than an intentional result of design. A wizard or a rogue with good CON can actually do many of the same feats of endurance which don't involve the Champion, because everyone gets hitpoints, and CON 20 at level 20 (which isn't actually that hard) gets you 150+ HP on every class. In fact, most things mentioned could be done with just a Fighter dip - Wizard 17/Fighter 3 does the same thing. So I don't think it's actually a thing that a Fighter 20 represents, it's just that high-level heroes can take a lot of punishment, because that's how levels and hitpoints work in D&D. That's what I meant by pointing out that other classes can do it - toughness is something EVERYONE does at high levels.


Neither do I, and I don't think the book is claiming that either, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. :smallconfused:

Five CR 20 monsters is less than the amount you're expected to fight on an average day at that level. They're not "bosses" for level 20 characters, nor are they supposed to singlehandedly threaten the whole world.

My understanding is that the tiers are talking about the scope and stakes of the campaign, not individual encounters. So, exactly the sort of stuff you were talking about; opening up portals to the Nine Hells and the like.

Yes, but they're probably "bosses" for level 13 or level 15 characters. Thing is, they're still a deadly challenge for lower-level groups...but due to bounded accuracy, a large city's guards and an army regiment (not an entire army, even) combined can take down most monsters in the game with mundane longbows while not really taking a lot of casualties.

Monsters in 5e rarely create the need for heroes to take them down - it's more of "so we stumbled upon this evil plot and we gotta do something about it and the king is already brainwashed pre-story, despite the villain not actually having any mind-control powers ingame" than "the demons are opening a gate to hell and all of king's soldiers can't do anything about it because the demons are too strong, but thankfully you're here". You're fighting small-scale battles with creatures that can't actually take large-scale battles, because they'd get destroyed in two rounds of focused fire at best.



The devs actually had quite a lot of commentary saying that they were specifically trying to do more to make monsters that WEREN'T of equal CR an always-relevant part of the DM's toolkit. They specifically wanted to get away from the assumption that you'd always be fighting equal-CR monsters. See for example Rodney Thompson's articles on Bounded Accuracy. Like this one. (http://bluishcertainty.blogspot.com/2016/06/bounded-accuracy.html)


I wasn't talking about lower-CR monsters being relevant. More about high-CR threats lacking a lot of tools they had previously, so that Fighters wouldn't be as disadvantaged at dealing with them as they previously were, without actually giving Fighters a lot of tools of their own.



First, I don't think FrozenStep was claiming that every attack would land, just that an attack represents some level of swordplay and maneuvering beyond just moving your arm as fast as you can.

Second, a +11 to-hit and nothing else is pretty lackluster for a Fighter. Even your average Battlemaster is going to be knocking people prone, following up with Advantage, and using Precision Strike if they miss. An Eldritch Knight will be using buffs (like, say, Shadow Blade or Greater Invisibility). An elf Samurai will have a 96% chance to hit AC21 with triple advantage (which they can give to themselves regularly and reliably). And so on and so forth.

Can't trip a dragon, Shadow Blade has a condition which isn't working half the time, and you only get Greater Invisibility once per day at level 20 exactly. And an elf samurai with Elven Accuracy is a good specific build for that, yes, but it's not a generic Fighter (and it has some weaknesses in that it's only using finesse weapons). What's a Champion gonna do, the most generic of generic Fighters? Nothing special, except exploding into a whirlwind of steel once or twice, but he's been doing that since level 2, just more...whirlwindy over time. Maybe regenerating some slashes, if that's how you fluff it.

TL;DR - 5e Fighters are fantastical, but only because of the underlying structures of the game working to make everyone fantastical while not providing enemies which would invalidate the baseline minimum of being fantastical which, actually, pretty much is the Fighter.

P.S. I guess Doomguy from Doom also is a Fighter - keeps chugging on, good with weapons, regenerates health to some extent, never does anything supernatural aside from being strong enough to punch a demon's skull in. It's not bad to be a 5e Fighter, it's just that...they're not generally anime-like.

[LudicSavant]

No

So what does any of this have to do with the topic? You're preaching to the choir with stuff like "a Wizard or Rogue can do similar endurance feats to a Fighter."


P.S. I guess Doomguy from Doom also is a Fighter - keeps chugging on, good with weapons, regenerates health to some extent, never does anything supernatural aside from being strong enough to punch a demon's skull in. It's not bad to be a 5e Fighter, it's just that...they're not generally anime-like.

Kinda getting the feeling that you're lumping all anime characters into roughly the same power level. The examples given here have often included guys for whom a bunch of average soldiers with bows or guns are a very serious threat. That shouldn't be undermined because it's "from an anime."

[Ignimortis]

So what does any of this have to do with the topic? You're preaching to the choir with stuff like "a Wizard or Rogue can do similar endurance feats to a Fighter."

Basically that Fighters aren't really comparable to anime characters aside from their durability which everyone gets. There's no mass destruction, no mobility, no single-stroke cleaving people apart (unless they're like at 20 HP or less, but that's almost civilian-tier), etc.

If hitpoints didn't scale as they do in 5e and instead stayed rather similar to low-level numbers, so that nobody could pass the 100HP bar, even level 20 Fighters could be reasonably compared to typical action heroes.

As it is currently, they're superhumanly durable action heroes, "guys at the gym", but to 11. Captain America (BM), Batman (obligatory Rogue 2 dip), Doomguy (Champion), etc. People who are extremely skilled, very strong and agile, and take humanly impossible amounts of punishment, but nothing really special beyond that.



Kinda getting the feeling that you're lumping all anime characters into roughly the same power level. The examples given here have often included guys for whom a bunch of average soldiers with bows or guns are a very serious threat. That shouldn't be undermined because it's "from an anime."

Well, I guess so? But Fighters aren't heroes from Fate (they're magical by default and have magic powers related to their legend and do stuff Fighters never did), nor Bleach (from what I've seen of it), nor One Piece (Fighters aren't really Zoro, who can dodge lasers and bullets, lift buildings and has at some point cut a whole ship in half with one strike).

Attack on Titan, maybe (never seen it, the videos you presented makes it believable for a high-level Fighter with some special items (the rope thingies to ignore movement limits per turn), even if the presentation is a bit over-the-top), Berserk's Guts - sure thing, that works. But Guts isn't really that far from archetypical action heroes. A lot (not most, but a lot) of his power and ability to kill actual demons comes from his equipment.

[LudicSavant]

Well, I guess so? But Fighters aren't heroes from Fate (they're magical by default and have magic powers related to their legend and do stuff Fighters never did), nor Bleach (from what I've seen of it), nor One Piece (Fighters aren't really Zoro, who can dodge lasers and bullets, lift buildings and has at some point cut a whole ship in half with one strike). I never said anything about Bleach or One Piece or Fate. I said Guts and Levi. If you said that a Fighter can't match Roronoa Zoro, I would agree with you.


Attack on Titan, maybe (never seen it, the videos you presented makes it believable for a high-level Fighter with some special items (the rope thingies to ignore movement limits per turn), even if the presentation is a bit over-the-top), Berserk's Guts - sure thing, that works. But Guts isn't really that far from archetypical action heroes. A lot (not most, but a lot) of his power and ability to kill actual demons comes from his equipment.

Well those are the two examples I mentioned :smalltongue:


Basically that Fighters aren't really comparable to anime characters aside from their durability which everyone gets. There's no mass destruction, no mobility, no single-stroke cleaving people apart (unless they're like at 20 HP or less, but that's almost civilian-tier), etc.

To be fair, I've seen Fighters hitting for over 100 damage in single strikes in 5e. For example, Shadow Blade + Booming Blade + Elven Accuracy EKs often do it when making opportunity attacks.

As for mobility... 5e's mobility math is weird. Horses can't match a real life human sprinter in 5e. But yeah 5e Fighters generally aren't that mobile without buffs / gear.

[Ignimortis]

I never said anything about Bleach or One Piece or Fate. I said Guts and Levi. If you said that a Fighter can't match Roronoa Zoro, I would agree with you.

Well those are the two examples I mentioned :smalltongue:

To be fair, I've seen Fighters hitting for over 100 damage in single strikes in 5e. For example, Shadow Blade + Booming Blade + Elven Accuracy EKs often do it when making opportunity attacks.

As for mobility... 5e's mobility math is weird. Horses can't match a real life human sprinter in 5e. But yeah 5e Fighters generally aren't that mobile without buffs / gear.

It wasn't an argument targeted personally at your statements. Other people in this thread have mentioned all of these, so I disagreed. A poorly-optimized Fighter is indeed Rambo with a sword, a well-optimized or a well-played one is Guts or Levi. Not Cu Chulainn (dude can level city blocks if he tried to, and literally should be unable to miss with his spear - only metaphysics of Fate prevent this), though, or Zoro.

[qube]

No, but I still think they're more of a byproduct of game mechanics than an intentional result of design. A wizard or a rogue with good CON can actually do many of the same feats of endurance which don't involve the Champion, because everyone gets hitpoints, and CON 20 at level 20

...

an elf samurai with Elven Accuracy is a good specific build for that, yes, but it's not a generic Fighter (and it has some weaknesses in that it's only using finesse weapons)And that, in a nutshell, is why wizards rule and fighters suck.

an elf samurai with a racial feat? not a valid example, because it's too specific
Where would we go if we assume people play characters and pick races, feats,... to synergize with there build??
a wizard who spends all his non-int-boost ASIs on boosting CON? Oh, valid example
'cause, you know. Dex or feats (even genery things like lucky or resilient(dex)), wizards don't use those things. CON's the name of the game baby


Bleach 4 champs can kill a tarrasque in 1.5 rounds. Don't tell me that doesn't sound like Bleach :)

[Ignimortis]

And that, in a nutshell, is why wizards rule and fighters suck.

an elf samurai with a racial feat? not a valid example, because it's too specific
Where would we go if we assume people play characters and pick races, feats,... to synergize with there build??
a wizard who spends all his non-int-boost ASIs on boosting CON? Oh, valid example
'cause, you know. Dex or feats (even genery things like lucky or resilient(dex)), wizards don't use those things. CON's the name of the game baby

4 champs can kill a tarrasque in 1.5 rounds. Don't tell me that doesn't sound like Bleach :)

You're putting words into my mouth I never said.

But alright, fine. You can keep CON at 16 which is attainable at chargen, and still have 142 HP as a level 20 wizard. You can keep CON at 16 for Fighter, too (all those yummy Mobile and Alert and GWM and Heavy Armor Master and Resilient (DEX), and you'll get, uh, 184 HP. Your point?


4 champs can kill a tarrasque in 1.5 rounds. Don't tell me that doesn't sound like Bleach :)

And Raiden from MGS could destroy twenty Metal Gears with a rocket launcher in 10-15 minutes, but only wrecked one in MGR with his sword in about 5 minutes. Obviously, MGS2 Raiden did way more damage (and damage per round) and is way more anime-like despite being a normal unaugmented human than his older self who flipped the damn thing over his shoulder and cut it apart while it was falling, then hopped on rockets and ran down a 200+ ft tall wall to finish it off.

DPR isn't everything.

[SociopathFriend]

Guts has already been mentioned. Agree that he seems like a good answer (insofar as I am familiar with Berserk).

Guts is hardcore a Barbarian though- not a Fighter. The amount of times Guts should be dead from injuries but just rages and pushes on is uncountable.

[Zhorn]

Druss, the Legend, Deathwalker.

If I'm being honest, he's probably a bit closer to a Fighter 17 with Barbarian 3 dip, but he's what I think of when I think of a level 20 Fighter.

[Sparky McDibben]

Wheel of Time is friggin' dope, yo. Although I kinda don't want to continue. Rand is definitely the most interesting character I've ever seen or read, from anything, ever. And just watching his descent into madness (I mean, he resurrected people by basically erasing their murderer from time itself) is kinda hard to witness. It's not like he can just "choose" to not go insane, either. So I'm just worried about the inevitable switch to the Dark Side.

And then I'd have to hate my favorite character. And that'd suck.

Keep going, man. It gets better.

[GlenSmash!]

Guts is hardcore a Barbarian though- not a Fighter. The amount of times Guts should be dead from injuries but just rages and pushes on is uncountable.

Pre-Eclipse I see guts as more of a Champion or Brute Fighter. He trained to fight using very simple tactics, but he trained them over and over and over again. Sure he seemed super human, but that felt more to me like he was a higher level than anybody else but Griffith. Even his pushing through tons of damage could be replicated with Second Wind, Indomitable, and Survivor.

Post-Eclipse is where we see him really push himself beyond normal human capabilities. Especially once he gets the Berserker armor.

I mean gestalt fighter/barbarian is probably the best fit, but if I were making a Guts-like character I'd probably shoot for Brute 11/Berserker 9.

Still I think he's a great example of a very high level non-spellcaster archetype.

[Man_Over_Game]

Pre-Eclipse I see guts as more of a Champion or Brute Fighter. He trained to fight using very simple tactics, but he trained them over and over and over again. Sure he seemed super human, but that felt more to me like he was a higher level than anybody else but Griffith. Even his pushing through tons of damage could be replicated with Second Wind, Indomitable, and Survivor.

Post-Eclipse is where we see him really push himself beyond normal human capabilities. Especially once he gets the Berserker armor.

I mean gestalt fighter/barbarian is probably the best fit, but if I were making a Guts-like character I'd probably shoot for Brute 11/Berserker 9.

Still I think he's a great example of a very high level non-spellcaster archetype.

I agree, I do think that Champion is a better fit than Brute. Brute + Barbarian focuses on getting as many on-hit effects as possible, AKA dual wielding. Champion + Barbarian focuses on making a single, brutal strike with your critical synergies, AKA heavy weapon.

And between dual wielding and heavy weapon, which sounds more like Guts?

[GlenSmash!]

Wheel of Time is friggin' dope, yo. Although I kinda don't want to continue. Rand is definitely the most interesting character I've ever seen or read, from anything, ever. And just watching his descent into madness (I mean, he resurrected people by basically erasing their murderer from time itself) is kinda hard to witness. It's not like he can just "choose" to not go insane, either. So I'm just worried about the inevitable switch to the Dark Side.

And then I'd have to hate my favorite character. And that'd suck.

You're going to really enjoy the rest ;-)


Druss, the Legend, Deathwalker.

If I'm being honest, he's probably a bit closer to a Fighter 17 with Barbarian 3 dip, but he's what I think of when I think of a level 20 Fighter.

Another good one.

[qube]

You're putting words into my mouth I never said.

But alright, fine. You can keep CON at 16 which is attainable at chargen, and still have 142 HP as a level 20 wizard. You can keep CON at 16 for Fighter, too (all those yummy Mobile and Alert and GWM and Heavy Armor Master and Resilient (DEX), and you'll get, uh, 184 HP. Your point?My point? Your argument only makes sense because of your humongous dual standard.

Heck, even in the above quote, you do it again. It's MUCH more common for a melee character to boost his con (or take the toughness feat), then it is for the wizard. As long as you try to act as though it's the same, your logic is irrelevant as it's based on fauly assumptions: You don't "prove" there's a problem with the fighter - you only prove how people fool themselves.


(and, really, mobile? "yummy" ??? )

[MaxWilson]

Many of you are overestimating 5e fighter: a level 20 5e fighter is more like rambo with a sword(will definitively survive a few dozen bullets and kill a whole bunch of normal people per turn and will manage to not meet too many persons at once) than like an lone warrior able to kill armies: 500 grouped ranged kobolds will be able to kill most lone level 20 5e fighters so it is not comparable to someone killing entire armies of giants.

Even 50 kobolds fighting to the death would be a challenge for a 5E fighter. Assuming he's got AC 20 and kills one kobold with each attack (which he won't in actual play) and also wins initiative AND that the kobolds have do not have advantage on their sling attacks (e.g. long range disadvantage cancelled by Pack Tactics advantage), then:

Round 1: Fighter kills 9 kobolds with Action Surge + Bonus Action. 41 kobolds inflict 51.25 DPR on average.
Round 2: Fighter kills 9 more kobolds with Action Surge + Bonus Action. 32 kobolds inflict 40 DPR on average.
Round 3: Fighter kills 5 more kobolds. 27 kobolds inflict 33.75 DPR.
Round 4: ...22 kobolds inflict 27.5 DPR.
Round 5: ...17 kobolds inflict 21.25 DPR.
Round 6: ...12 kobolds inflict 15 DPR.
Round 7: ...7 kobolds inflict 8.75 DPR.
Round 8: ...2 kobolds inflict 2.5 DPR.
Round 9: ...Fighter kills last 2 kobolds before they can act.

On average the fighter takes 200 HP of damage, and with 14 Con he's got 164 HP. Second Wind will bring that up to 190ish at the cost of not killing a kobold with that bonus action.

Obviously stuff like HAM or the Shield spell can reduce this, and he can also kite them from out of sling range, so the fighter can still win... but he can't just walk up to them and casually kill them all without needing any tactics.

A 20th level Eldritch Knight probably looks a lot like a Obi-Wan Kenobi in terms of his ability to take on large-but-not-enormous armies of enemies by himself. A 20th level Samurai might look more like, say, Tom Cruise in Edge of Tomorrow after he's died a few thousand times: moves perfectly, dead shot, kills a lot of enemies, able to survive a large battle that wipes out everyone else. Or you can think of him as a Corwin of Amber equivalent: he and his brother fight their way up the slopes of Kolvir, buthering their way through the Amber army, two at a time for hours on end. (A 5E fighter would have to do this by leveraging e.g. complex Shove prone + Defensive Duelist kiting, or custom Parry rules or something like that, otherwise he'd die after a few minutes.) But if Corwin had tried to fight the whole Amber army head on instead of on a narrow mountain trail, he would have quickly died, and that would also happen to a 5E fighter.

Edit: oh! Alita (Battle Angel) is also a pretty good example of a 20th-ish level Fighter.

=================================


Yes, but they're probably "bosses" for level 13 or level 15 characters. Thing is, they're still a deadly challenge for lower-level groups...but due to bounded accuracy, a large city's guards and an army regiment (not an entire army, even) combined can take down most monsters in the game with mundane longbows while not really taking a lot of casualties.

Monsters in 5e rarely create the need for heroes to take them down - it's more of "so we stumbled upon this evil plot and we gotta do something about it and the king is already brainwashed pre-story, despite the villain not actually having any mind-control powers ingame" than "the demons are opening a gate to hell and all of king's soldiers can't do anything about it because the demons are too strong, but thankfully you're here". You're fighting small-scale battles with creatures that can't actually take large-scale battles, because they'd get destroyed in two rounds of focused fire at best.

I'm sympathetic to this line of thought (5E high-CR monsters are boring and low on the strategic threat scale), but... why stick with small-scale battles? If you want to tell a story about a threat to an entire kingdom, why not create a threat to an entire kingdom? It could be a dragon which uses its high Stealth and mobility to do hit-and-run attacks at night (when everything is heavily obscured by darkness) and is gradually degrading the kingdom's military forces to the point of uselessness, while also forcing the king into hiding and destroying public morale. That creates a need for heroes, and can even explain why the regular armed forces are too demoralized to be of much use to the heroes beyond maybe a handful of plucky NPC volunteers. It could even be a spellcasting dragon (all of my dragons have multiple levels in Dragon Sorcerer) who can do things like Invisibility and Teleportation Circle so that it doesn't need to wait for nightfall and can even destroy largish-armies in broad daylight.

It could be a legion of Efreeti or beholders. The kingdom can't hope to defeat the Iron Legion of 777 Efreeti and their arrogant magician-commander Jafar, and so they settle for paying tribute, but maybe the PCs can if they are smart. (If they use illusions and look harmless, they might be able to capture their commander when he's alone with no one but his 2 Efreet bodyguards and his pet salamander Iago. This will be mostly a social/heist adventure, with a fight somewhere near the climax. It won't be a combat grind unless the PCs are so dumb that they deserve to die.)

"Boss" solo monsters are stupid, and they don't work well in 5E, so why not give up on them and go back to telling classic stories in which kingdoms are typically threatened by kingdom-sized threats? "Quantity has a quality of its own" and 5E is explicitly designed to make that approach scale.


If hitpoints didn't scale as they do in 5e and instead stayed rather similar to low-level numbers, so that nobody could pass the 100HP bar, even level 20 Fighters could be reasonably compared to typical action heroes.

As it is currently, they're superhumanly durable action heroes, "guys at the gym", but to 11. Captain America (BM), Batman (obligatory Rogue 2 dip), Doomguy (Champion), etc. People who are extremely skilled, very strong and agile, and take humanly impossible amounts of punishment, but nothing really special beyond that.

+1, good insight.


To be fair, I've seen Fighters hitting for over 100 damage in single strikes in 5e. For example, Shadow Blade + Booming Blade + Elven Accuracy EKs often do it when making opportunity attacks.

I don't see how this is possible. Even with a 5d8 Shadow Blade, +3d8 from Booming Blade, you're rolling 8d8+5-7ish damage on that strike, so your max damage is 71 HP of damage. (You also impose a 4d8 lockdown if they continue to move, but that isn't part of the initial strike, and besides, rolling near-max damage on the rider as well as max damage on your basic attack is... not going to happen more than once in several million tries. You've got better odds of rolling up three 18s on 3d6.)


(and, really, mobile? "yummy" ??? )

Yes, really.

[zinycor]

I would think of Genghis Khan, or if you want to stay on GoT lore, Robert Baratheon.

Someone able to take on a kingdom based on their strength and tactical mind.

In regards to how he would be at battle, that very much depends on his fighting style. I like to think of Zoro from One Piece, as how a high level fighter would be in battle.

[GlenSmash!]

I agree, I do think that Champion is a better fit than Brute. Brute + Barbarian focuses on getting as many on-hit effects as possible, AKA dual wielding. Champion + Barbarian focuses on making a single, brutal strike with your critical synergies, AKA heavy weapon.

And between dual wielding and heavy weapon, which sounds more like Guts?

Champion Barb has always had great synergy. Edit: and makes a very fine guts.

I like Brute because every swing of Guts's slab of iron seems to do tons of damage, crit or not. Especially if I multiclass into Berserker as Frenzy works well with Brute Force. Edit: also Brutish Durability seems very Guts-like too.

Actually I think I'd change my split to 17 Brute/3 Berserker for more Action Surges and Devastating Critical. Sucks to lose Mindless Rage though.

[Rukelnikov]

Guts is hardcore a Barbarian though- not a Fighter. The amount of times Guts should be dead from injuries but just rages and pushes on is uncountable.

Came here to say this.

Fight in the forest and escape from prison are both pre eclipse, and he already shows he just rages on and tears people apart, that is to me a Barbarian not a fighter, even a brute.

And bout Levi, I was actually gonna say he's not lvl 20 yet (im not up to date with the manga though), maybe nearing tier 4, he's extremely impressive, and my fave char from the show, but even with the breakdown of his accomplishments "Fighting skilled giants with magical powers", that something I expect from a much lower fighter, not a 20th lvl one.

When comparing the stuff I've played at those levels, considering my group has a strong penchant for melee combatants PCs, Levi doesn't feel like a 20th level character.

One I see above Levi, and probably is 20th lvl if we consider his feats at different points of the story is Gourry Gabriev.

[LudicSavant]

I don't see how this is possible.

I'll break it down for you then:

Max damage resulting from a single Booming Blade OA for last EK build I was using was 18*8+28=172 damage, resulting from a crit (14% critrate with EA, potentially 19% with Lucky if they were just going all in on one fight, so it wasn't all that rare for me to crit), 7d8 doubled to 14d8, 4d8 from the rider pop, and +28 from (+5 stat, +2 dueling, +21 Touch of Death). Average damage off a normal hit +rider was (11d8+28) 77.5. Mind, said character also had Touch of Death from going into Death Cleric after level 12 (I usually multiclass out of EK into a fullcaster after I get my third attack to accelerate my casting progression rather than wait 8-9 levels for another attack).

[MaxWilson]

I'll break it down for you then:

Max damage resulting from a single Booming Blade OA for last EK build I was using was 18*8+28=172 damage, resulting from a crit (14% critrate with EA, potentially 19% with Lucky if they were just going all in on one fight, so it wasn't all that rare for me to crit), 7d8 doubled to 14d8, 4d8 from the rider pop, and +28 from (+5 stat, +2 dueling, +21 Touch of Death). Average damage was 77.5. Mind, said character also had Touch of Death from going into Death Cleric after level 12 (I usually multiclass out of EK into a fullcaster after I get my third attack to accelerate my casting progression rather than wait 8-9 levels for another attack).

Oh, duh, stupid me. In my head I told myself I was accounting for crits but in the actual math I totally wasn't. 16d8, not 8d8.

Thanks.

[LudicSavant]

Oh, duh, stupid me. In my head I told myself I was accounting for crits but in the actual math I totally wasn't. 16d8, not 8d8.

Thanks.

NP :smallsmile:

[GlenSmash!]

Came here to say this.

Fight in the forest and escape from prison are both pre eclipse, and he already shows he just rages on and tears people apart, that is to me a Barbarian not a fighter, even a brute.

The fight in the forest took a really long time. It's hard for me to imagine a Barbarian being able to rage for the entire time unless he is level 20 and has unlimited Rages. And I don't think Guts had hit max level at that point.

To fight on with the same level of ability for an extended period of time is definitely in the wheelhouse of a 5e Fighter (especially one with little resource management like a Champion or Brute) more than a 5e Barbarian.

Leaving the Tower of Rebirth though is a textbook Rage (Frenzy even) I will give you that.

[Dalebert]

John Wick?

[GlenSmash!]

John Wick?

Nice. I love a good modern pop culture example.

Someone else mentioned Captain America which I liked too.

[Sparky McDibben]

Also, while I love the Wheel of Time and Lan in particular, he's not exactly a mundane human being. He's a Warder, which gains him greater stamina, strength, willpower, the ability to sense evil creatures at a distance, and resistance to injury.

There are a few other benefits, but basically they make him a demi-paladin.

[GreyBlack]

For me it's easy to imagine what most classes look like at level 20. Wizards with their towers and magical servants/guardians and massive libraries. Clerics with temples and fantastic powers and druids with massive groves and such.

But with a fighter hitting max level, what would you imagine? Just a badass warrior? Jon Snow to the max? Obviously they would take magic items, but how would you imagine a "normal" person getting to the level that they can take on demons and monsters thru their training, rather than with arcane magic/divine help.

I'm considering a fighter for Dungeon of The Mad Mage but we'll see, what do you guys think!? Do you have any examples from fantasies?

Varian Wrynn of Warcraft fame.

Sure. There's people around him who can manipulate space and time. That's a thing. That all takes time. Sometimes, you need someone who's willing to jump off a gorram airship armed only with his sword and put his sword into its eye.

Supremely skilled in swordsmanship, leadership, strategy, and tactics, you can command whole armies to do your bidding, and they will because they know that you know what you're doing. Tough as nails, hard fighting, and strong willed, you don't back down from a fight. You embrace it.

[qube]

Even 50 kobolds fighting to the death would be a challenge for a 5E fighter. Assuming he's got AC 20
...
On average the fighter takes 200 HP of damage,could we assume a realistic AC for a lvl 20 fighter? zero magic, non-defense fighting style, non feated, just plate & shield gives you 20 AC.

With anything realistic of an AC, the kobolds (+4 to hit) only hit on a nat 20 (which, AFAIK still crits), leaving them with a DPR per kobold of 5% x 2d4+2 = 0.35. This results into


(41 + 32 + 27 + 22 + 17 + 12 + 7 + 2)* 0.35 = 56 damage (or 30 after second wind)

50 Kobolds with advantage vs a fighter with HAM turns to (9.5% x 2d4+2-3 = 0.38, or) 61 damage (35 after second wind).


Yes, really.I ain't seeing it. nor do the various fighter guides I checked to see what I missed. it's not horrible, but hardly the feat to entice me to keep my con at 16

[noob]

John Wick?

John wick is different from a 5e fighter in the way john wick gets its power not from being tough but from mostly having insane initiative and nearly never missing.

[Man_Over_Game]

John wick is different from a 5e fighter in the way john wick gets its power not from being tough but from mostly having insane initiative and nearly never missing.

I could see it as a Dexterity-based Samurai.

Never misses, never really gets hurt that bad, has maxed out initiative, and just kills you before you can do anything (Sharpshooter damage + Advantage + x9 attacks in one turn).

[noob]

I could see it as a Dexterity-based Samurai.

Never misses, never really gets hurt that bad, has maxed out initiative, and just kills you before you can do anything (Sharpshooter damage + Advantage + x9 attacks in one turn).

a level 20 samurai would not be significantly crippled from only a few gunshots.

[Rukelnikov]

Varian Wrynn of Warcraft fame.

Sure. There's people around him who can manipulate space and time. That's a thing. That all takes time. Sometimes, you need someone who's willing to jump off a gorram airship armed only with his sword and put his sword into its eye.

Supremely skilled in swordsmanship, leadership, strategy, and tactics, you can command whole armies to do your bidding, and they will because they know that you know what you're doing. Tough as nails, hard fighting, and strong willed, you don't back down from a fight. You embrace it.

Varian is a great example of an epic level fighter...

However he was at least lvl 110 at the time of his death.

[Man_Over_Game]

a level 20 samurai would not be significantly crippled from only a few gunshots.

Would be accurate for a table that wasn't using "HP as Meat" concept. Where you only take serious wounds after getting close to 0 HP.

See, at that point, he's had so many close calls that his HP hit 0, and his Strength Before Death kicks in.

[noob]

Would be accurate for a table that wasn't using "HP as Meat" concept. Where you only take serious wounds after getting close to 0 HP.

See, at that point, he's had so many close calls that his HP hit 0, and his Strength Before Death kicks in.

not using hp as meat makes stuff like surviving a 50 meter fall that brings you right next to an exploding nuke impossible to explain

[qube]

not using hp as meat makes stuff like surviving a 50 meter fall that brings you right next to an exploding nuke impossible to explainabout as impossible of actually attacking 8 times in 6 seconds with a greatsword?

[Man_Over_Game]

about as impossible of actually attacking 8 times in 6 seconds with a greatsword?

Or shooting a hand crossbow that does as much damage as a hand axe 9 times in 6 seconds, or 5 times every 6 seconds in combat. Fire off 54 shots in 60 seconds.

5e isn't a Real Life simulator. There are other things that serve that purpose better.

[Rukelnikov]

about as impossible of actually attacking 8 times in 6 seconds with a greatsword?


Or shooting a hand crossbow that does as much damage as a hand axe 9 times in 6 seconds, or 5 times every 6 seconds in combat. Fire off 54 shots in 60 seconds.

5e isn't a Real Life simulator. There are other things that serve that purpose better.

Both this statements support HP as meat, which would make John Wick far from 20th lvl, which IMO he is, and actually I picture him more as something of a ranger, if he's a fighter he likely has ranger or rogue MC.

[Ignimortis]

My point? Your argument only makes sense because of your humongous dual standard.

Heck, even in the above quote, you do it again. It's MUCH more common for a melee character to boost his con (or take the toughness feat), then it is for the wizard. As long as you try to act as though it's the same, your logic is irrelevant as it's based on fauly assumptions: You don't "prove" there's a problem with the fighter - you only prove how people fool themselves.


(and, really, mobile? "yummy" ??? )

There is no problem with the Fighter in this context. They're just not anime-like, unless the anime is relatively grounded like Berserk through not really being over-the-top in personal capabilities of characters. Compare them to a Barbarian, who at level 20 can very well jump 30 feet (Eagle totem 14), or literally go Stand-user with Ancestral Guardian (ghosts that protect everyone around you and learn to punch back at one point), or just go ablaze through pure rage with Storm Herald. Very different flavours and mechanical abilities, even though they both can't really do a lot of what anime dudes/dudettes often do.

And I've seen spellcasters with 16 CON, and I've played a spellcaster with 18 CON because I got a tome of it as my share of the loot off a dragon hoard (there was nothing better for me). At level 13 I was about as tough HP-wise as our resident Fighter, because d10+14 CON ends up the same as d6+18 CON if we're taking averages, because he was looking at feats to improve his gameplay in ways that weren't "just more HP I guess". Meanwhile, I had everything I wanted (Elemental Adept from VHuman, poof, done, level 4 and 8 go into CHA), level 12 went into CON, because "kill the mage first" was a very common (but reasonable) tactic in that game, and my AC wasn't stellar.

My assumptions are not faulty. You're assuming everyone is playing the game in the same way, where they're trying to maximise one particular thing. Everyone has different play experiences. Sure, if you're optimized to the gills to eke out the most of the most...well, actually, I'm not sure that your Fighter is also gonna have 20 CON - there are feats to take and WIS to bother about, because what use is your 20 CON if you're in a Hold Monster (a very popular spell for some reason, I wonder why) and all attacks autohit for double damage?

And yes, Mobile is good. It's just not GWM or SS or PaM. But it's very much on par with Alert, especially if fights tend to start at not point-blank range or skirmishing is rewarded instead of just standing there and taking blows. But Toughness? I've only seen actually squishy classes take that. Martials usually figure their HP is enough.



I'm sympathetic to this line of thought (5E high-CR monsters are boring and low on the strategic threat scale), but... why stick with small-scale battles? If you want to tell a story about a threat to an entire kingdom, why not create a threat to an entire kingdom?


Eh. Some of 5e's assumptions like bounded accuracy aren't really my cup of tea, so I might play it again at some point, but I won't run it. Personally, I just run 3.5 with a somewhat curated selection of classes and some 5e backporting (legendary actions and lair actions are very neat ideas, really help out the action economy outside of duels) instead. Let's just say that my current campaign will at some point involve several large-scale battle at some point - except in some of those the party's gonna take on a few hundred enemies by themselves. The party's gonna be level 10 or 11. Shouldn't even be a really tough fight, I think, if I'm doing things right, and should really give a sense of progression - the enemy stats are gonna be the same as they were in the first act. And the end boss...let's just say this thing could very well wreck the world if it goes unchecked, all on its' own.

Then again, my games are more Final Fantasy than Dragon Age: Origins. To each their own.

[GreyBlack]

There is no problem with the Fighter in this context. They're just not anime-like, unless the anime is relatively grounded like Berserk through not really being over-the-top in personal capabilities of characters. Compare them to a Barbarian, who at level 20 can very well jump 30 feet (Eagle totem 14), or literally go Stand-user with Ancestral Guardian (ghosts that protect everyone around you and learn to punch back at one point), or just go ablaze through pure rage with Storm Herald. Very different flavours and mechanical abilities, even though they both can't really do a lot of what anime dudes/dudettes often do.

And I've seen spellcasters with 16 CON, and I've played a spellcaster with 18 CON because I got a tome of it as my share of the loot off a dragon hoard (there was nothing better for me). At level 13 I was about as tough HP-wise as our resident Fighter, because d10+14 CON ends up the same as d6+18 CON if we're taking averages, because he was looking at feats to improve his gameplay in ways that weren't "just more HP I guess". Meanwhile, I had everything I wanted (Elemental Adept from VHuman, poof, done, level 4 and 8 go into CHA), level 12 went into CON, because "kill the mage first" was a very common (but reasonable) tactic in that game, and my AC wasn't stellar.

My assumptions are not faulty. You're assuming everyone is playing the game in the same way, where they're trying to maximise one particular thing. Everyone has different play experiences. Sure, if you're optimized to the gills to eke out the most of the most...well, actually, I'm not sure that your Fighter is also gonna have 20 CON - there are feats to take and WIS to bother about, because what use is your 20 CON if you're in a Hold Monster (a very popular spell for some reason, I wonder why) and all attacks autohit for double damage?

And yes, Mobile is good. It's just not GWM or SS or PaM. But it's very much on par with Alert, especially if fights tend to start at not point-blank range or skirmishing is rewarded instead of just standing there and taking blows. But Toughness? I've only seen actually squishy classes take that. Martials usually figure their HP is enough.



Eh. Some of 5e's assumptions like bounded accuracy aren't really my cup of tea, so I might play it again at some point, but I won't run it. Personally, I just run 3.5 with a somewhat curated selection of classes and some 5e backporting (legendary actions and lair actions are very neat ideas, really help out the action economy outside of duels) instead. Let's just say that my current campaign will at some point involve several large-scale battle at some point - except in some of those the party's gonna take on a few hundred enemies by themselves. The party's gonna be level 10 or 11. Shouldn't even be a really tough fight, I think, if I'm doing things right, and should really give a sense of progression - the enemy stats are gonna be the same as they were in the first act. And the end boss...let's just say this thing could very well wreck the world if it goes unchecked, all on its' own.

Then again, my games are more Final Fantasy than Dragon Age: Origins. To each their own.

Soooooooo... your big problem is that fighters aren't anime enough?

.... you're not wrong. Fighters really could do with a healthy dose of anime. Even the low level anime fighters are capable of absurd feats that would make the D&D fighter envious. This normally starts at being faster than the eye can even see and then gets bigger, stronger, and faster than that.

Maybe putting in a healthy dose of anime at higher levels of D&D would be a good idea?

[Ignimortis]

Soooooooo... your big problem is that fighters aren't anime enough?

.... you're not wrong. Fighters really could do with a healthy dose of anime. Even the low level anime fighters are capable of absurd feats that would make the D&D fighter envious. This normally starts at being faster than the eye can even see and then gets bigger, stronger, and faster than that.

Maybe putting in a healthy dose of anime at higher levels of D&D would be a good idea?

It's one of my problems with 5e, but I don't really mind it this much unless people start telling me "that's how it should be, and you're badwrong for liking anime fighters" or "but Fighters are anime, look how many attacks they get and how much damage they can do!". It's just one of the reasons I don't run 5e, and not even the most important one.

Then again, I do think that Fighters (and other martial guys as well) could really do with some advanced stuff at levels 11+, because their core gameplay never goes far from "I hit it with a stick X times". It's just that I'm burnt out on arguing why it's genre-appropriate and good design in general.

And I would support some sort of class that would trade raw numerical class features for more utility/show-off/mobility powers, or something to do AoE damage (I detest how Steel Wind Strike got to be a Wizard spell but not a cool thing martials can do). I like how the Kensei Monk works, for instance (incredibly agile swordfighter, can do the typical "dashes behind you faster than you can see" thing), but it could be slightly different (making your weapon +X is a pretty boring feature, for instance). Shadow Monk is also fun.

[FabulousFizban]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cVU4HURKEXs

[noob]

Both this statements support HP as meat, which would make John Wick far from 20th lvl, which IMO he is, and actually I picture him more as something of a ranger, if he's a fighter he likely has ranger or rogue MC.

In 3.5 you can get +12 to attack throws around level 6 and if you do not have spectacular constitution then you can find yourself in the same situation as john wick: able to hit people with perfect reliability and dying in a few shots.(there is ways to make critical failures very unlikely in 3.5 all it takes is one feat or two or a dip)
But in 5e never missing a normal person needs some really high level because rolls are based on proficiency that progress slower than the slowest progressing saves in 3.5(but it starts higher which compensate a bit)
John wick is easier to do with older dnd.

[MaxWilson]

Eh. Some of 5e's assumptions like bounded accuracy aren't really my cup of tea, so I might play it again at some point, but I won't run it. Personally, I just run 3.5 with a somewhat curated selection of classes and some 5e backporting (legendary actions and lair actions are very neat ideas, really help out the action economy outside of duels) instead. Let's just say that my current campaign will at some point involve several large-scale battle at some point - except in some of those the party's gonna take on a few hundred enemies by themselves. The party's gonna be level 10 or 11. Shouldn't even be a really tough fight, I think, if I'm doing things right, and should really give a sense of progression - the enemy stats are gonna be the same as they were in the first act. And the end boss...let's just say this thing could very well wreck the world if it goes unchecked, all on its' own.

Then again, my games are more Final Fantasy than Dragon Age: Origins. To each their own.

I get this. Last time I ran 5E I came away wishing I'd run D&D or AD&D instead--players didn't want all the WotC bells and whistles. Won't make that mistake again in the same context. Gotta pick the right system for your particular situation.

[Skylivedk]

It's one of my problems with 5e, but I don't really mind it this much unless people start telling me "that's how it should be, and you're badwrong for liking anime fighters" or "but Fighters are anime, look how many attacks they get and how much damage they can do!". It's just one of the reasons I don't run 5e, and not even the most important one.

Then again, I do think that Fighters (and other martial guys as well) could really do with some advanced stuff at levels 11+, because their core gameplay never goes far from "I hit it with a stick X times". It's just that I'm burnt out on arguing why it's genre-appropriate and good design in general.

And I would support some sort of class that would trade raw numerical class features for more utility/show-off/mobility powers, or something to do AoE damage (I detest how Steel Wind Strike got to be a Wizard spell but not a cool thing martials can do). I like how the Kensei Monk works, for instance (incredibly agile swordfighter, can do the typical "dashes behind you faster than you can see" thing), but it could be slightly different (making your weapon +X is a pretty boring feature, for instance). Shadow Monk is also fun.

Have you tried something else? I find 3.5e martials underwhelming compared to casters.. If you've found something, I'm very happy to receive a DM

[No brains]

Consider any of the characters from SoulCalibur, they probably qualify. Mitsurugi is a ronin mercenary who who plows through firing lines just to prove he can. Astaroth is literally too angry to die (permanently). Voldo is just... Voldo- right up in everyone's face.

In general, lv 20 fighters won't have a basic setup because they aren't as dependent on resources or perceived as similar threats to otherworldly beings as clerics or wizards. They can be in any historical setting: in a spotless military complex with perfectly drilled soldiers, on a pirate ship that sings wherever it goes, in a quiet cottage on a farm and leave me alone I am not becoming emperor AGAIN fight for yourselves losers, or even in a rented room in a city making ends meet during peacetime when fighting isn't in high demand.

I think if a level 20 fighter were to have some kind of signifier, they would have an 'air' of being a dangerous person. Think like an always on kung-fu/ John Wayne stare. The world just seems to narrowly letterbox around their eyes.

[Evaar]

Nuada from Hellboy 2.

Search “Nuada Training” on YouTube for an example.