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View Full Version : "A DM only rolls the dice because of the noise they make." - Gary Gygax



SexyOchreJelly
2007-10-06, 04:50 PM
To all Dungeon Masters,

Is this quote true? How often do you fudge rolls and for what reasons?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-10-06, 04:54 PM
It's not true. I almost always use dice where they fall.

Which is to say, yes, I do fudge. One time, I probably fudged a little too much, and almost made it a TPK. Only one PC made it out alive, and he was almost dead - the only thing that kept him going was an experimental combat stimulant that would kill him in a few hours, unless he got to a hospital.

The players seemed to enjoy it, though, so...

kjones
2007-10-06, 04:58 PM
I fudge rolls to cancel out my mistakes - if I've designed an encounter that turns out to be too powerful, then suddenly that hit turns into a miss, and that AC 30 is now 25. However, if the encounter is dangerous due to the stupidity of the players and not myself - well, I'm just giving them enough rope.

And I'd never fudge the other way. That's just unfair - for your players to come up with some clever plan, only to fail some critical roll due to DM fiat. If they really can't do it, then they should know better, but I once played in a game... If we ever did something the DM didn't like, suddenly the DCs for everything jumped by 20.

Quietus
2007-10-06, 04:59 PM
I generally don't fudge often - when I do, it's because either A) The monsters are rolling nothing but 1's, or B) The monsters are rolling nothing but 20's. Neither of those makes for a particularly fun fight. The occasional crit does happen, and certainly misses do, but I've had occasions where the monsters simply failed miserably to hit the PC's, or couldn't NOT miss.

So essentially, I roll, and if things are being annoyingly bad and unfun, I'll just decide what happens.

triforcel
2007-10-06, 04:59 PM
Dice? You need dice for this game?

But in all seriousness, I've DM'ed a few times and I usually go with what I roll, even if I'm rolling treasure before the session starts. Occasionally, as in that one time the first kobold the group encounter rolled three twenties and killed the fighter, I'll fudge it just because it makes the game go smoother. Though I'd like to note that I enjoy rolling the dice even when there's no reason too, keep the PC's guessing and all that.:belkar:

squidthingy
2007-10-06, 05:07 PM
I would only do if the pc's all start getting amazing rolls that make my carefully planned out encounters not as challenging

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-10-06, 05:10 PM
I don't fudge, I add plot bonuses to rolls...

AslanCross
2007-10-06, 05:10 PM
I only fudge the rolls if I end up killing a PC way too fast, but I'm weaning myself off that. I do like the sound dice make, though.

Drider
2007-10-06, 05:15 PM
I "roll" before the playing, as in, i keep the results of 150 d20, 20 d everything else on a computer document and go from the first and go down.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-06, 05:15 PM
I try to make my players aware that the dice fall as they may, and when that happens, the players may be in for a rough time. This is a dangerous game, and characters die.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-10-06, 05:15 PM
I don't fudge rolls. Once or twice, I have "forgotten" monster abilities that would turn a tough fight into an easy TPK, though, for the sake of giving my players a shot if they're clever. In such cases, I usually just lower the Encounter Level by one or two for XP purposes and move forward.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-10-06, 05:24 PM
In my experience of the Great Gygax over the years, he seems to make up some great rules - but doesn't follow them himself, and he only says things like this to be provocative. He'd most likely be banned from this forum for trolling...

In response to the OP's question: I play D&D as a DM. That means I play by the same rules as the players. Dice are what we use to make outcomes of our actions uncertain - and the uncertainty is essential to the fun. I roll the dice, and I use the result. I feel that doing otherwise would be an insult.

bosssmiley
2007-10-06, 05:37 PM
"Silence this Gygax (whomever he might be). He is giving away all our secrets!" :smallamused:

I fudge occasionally, but only when it'll make for a better story. We game to play heroes; heroes don't go down by being knifed in an alley* thank you very much.

* Noir, low-glam Cyberpunk settings, CoC & WFRP excepted of course

Matthew
2007-10-06, 05:56 PM
I quite often roll the dice for no other reason than to alarm the players... (and disguise the significance of actual rolls)

Dhavaer
2007-10-06, 06:00 PM
I occasionally fudge. Sometimes without actual good reason, because I think the dice roller's stuck on one number. I don't do it often, though.

brian c
2007-10-06, 06:11 PM
I don't fudge, I add plot bonuses to rolls...

QFT


I treat all combat rolls where they land, but if a monster is going down too fast, I might decide that it actually has 70hp instead of 50. If the PCs are hacking away though, I might give them credit for a few hits that would have missed otherwise. I never roll for treasure, the players get what I want them to get.

Rex Blunder
2007-10-06, 06:19 PM
Gygax sure made up a lot of DM-only tables to roll on for someone with this philosophy. I guess those are just there to fool the player, if he should happen to pick up the DMG.

horseboy
2007-10-06, 06:50 PM
I quite often roll the dice for no other reason than to alarm the players... (and disguise the significance of actual rolls)

That, plus, when I need something to come off as random and arbitrary, when it's actually quite important. You don't want to tip your hand too soon to the PC's that the little girl is supposed to live so that she can grow up and drink their souls later, or whatever.

psychoticbarber
2007-10-06, 07:03 PM
Like an above poster, I also rarely fudge, but I fudge when *I* make a mistake that could endanger the player characters.

Behold_the_Void
2007-10-06, 07:09 PM
My fudging tends to be oriented more towards player preservation than player killing. I will inflate an encounter just to make it last a bit longer on occasion though.

Renegade Paladin
2007-10-06, 07:14 PM
I only fudge it when there's a mass of NPCs on both sides that I really don't want to waste the players' valuable time rolling out to the last hit point. For instance, I'm running a nautical campaign now, and the sailors and sailors on board enemy ships aren't important enough for me to run individually; I just roll a couple d20s for either side and adjudicate what happens to who on the fly.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-06, 07:45 PM
I only fudge if I make a mistake and make things too hard for the PCs. I don't want them to die because of my incompetence (their incompetence is more than enough).

I also fudge treasure rolls. If I roll somthing that I think will unbalance the game, I re-roll. I try to keep things a little surprising and such, but I do want some control over it.

I do the "sorry, I forgot the monster could do that" sometimes too. Especially with broken things like Alter Self, etc.

truemane
2007-10-06, 07:49 PM
I'm all about fudging. I've run entire adventures on nothing more than the clackety-clack of random dice and my sense of dramatic timing. Part of this comes from the fact that when I started DM'ing, I had no idea what the rules were. So I made it all up as I went along. No one noticed.

I will usually keep them as they lay for large, dramatic scenes, whether that be combat or social scenes.

But in general, I make it all up.

Hmmm...I have the same username on here as I do on my PbP site...I hope none of my DnD players are OOTS fans. I'm probably safe, right? What are the odds of On-Line DnD Roleplayers would also know about OOTS?

:smallconfused:

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-06, 08:18 PM
Truemane, you've just rolled 1 one your luck roll, most likely.

Winterwind
2007-10-06, 08:48 PM
Fudging against the players I would consider plainly unfair, unfun and unnecessary.
As for fudging for the players, I have a hard time making my players believe that I don't DM too much in their favour generally and wouldn't ever let them die (and they want the possibility of death in order to increase excitement). Therefore, no fudging at all in our group.

clarkcd
2007-10-06, 09:34 PM
I used to fudge rolls to keep players alive but because I rolled in the open they knew when I was doing it. They told me it ruined the excitement of the game knowing that I would never kill them except by player stupidity and since my group at that time were fairly methodical players they were basically immortal. So I told them I would stop fudging, I did, and everyone had a better time. YMMV

As a side note I find that not fudging makes it more fun for me as a GM as well. It's no fun when you know the outcome before you start as a player and it's doubly so as a GM. It's fun when the players make you stay on your toes by rolling so well you have to alter the story. Sure the campaign plot may stay the same but how you thought the players would get there changes. Spices things up IMO.

Fiery Justice
2007-10-06, 10:23 PM
What I think he means here is that while the dice may fall on a given number, they have no authority over the Story. If the mad hatter with the axe I didn't intend to kill the party with lands a few critical hits, thats not dramatic (unless its a really dramatic hatter I suppose) its just lame. It won't send people home talking about it like legend, it will send people home thinking, "My guy died to that loser hatter.". If however, the monster is dramatic enough, I think even TPKs are permissible. But I think its true yes, if I understand it properly.

Dark Knight Renee
2007-10-06, 10:32 PM
To all Dungeon Masters,

Is this quote true? How often do you fudge rolls and for what reasons?

Hmm. I'd have to agree with that statement, though I personally find dice rather noisy and see little reason to roll them if I'm not going to use the result. I usually DM more freeform games, so when I do roll the dice, I tend to fudge if the results do not support the dramatic tension or whatnot (not always fudged in the PC's favor).

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-10-06, 11:08 PM
I fudge when the game is better for it.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-10-06, 11:10 PM
I tend to fudge dice rolls in plot critical battles, such as against a BBEG. However, since the party is pretty big and we have two primary casters who employ direct damage, buffs and debuffs judiciously (we houseruled in 3.0 Haste that affects the whole party), it is usually in the favor of the BBEG (he makes the grapple check, his AC is actually 1 point higher, etc). I tend to not have any PCs killed off though, even when I try. Maybe I'm still too nice...

Golthur
2007-10-06, 11:11 PM
Let's see...

I roll the dice randomly sometimes to alarm the players.
I roll the dice sometimes even when the outcome is a foregone conclusion, so as not to make it obvious that it's so.
I very, very rarely fudge dice to save players from certain death when the cause is purely bad luck, and not any form of stupidity on their part. However, that being said, in my current campaign I have a "fate point" system which lets the players save themselves in this situation, so I don't fudge at all.

Lord_Gareth
2007-10-06, 11:21 PM
I don't fudge rolls - however, any dice that goes on the floor is re-rolled. PCs die like anyone else, including and especially by being knifed in alleyways (you'd think they'd learn after the first Death Attack attempt, but nooooooo). Likewise, I don't try to save any NPCs - not even BBEGs. I just keep a lot of backup plans (my players -have- learned that one-shotting the main villan results in an immediate, meaner, nastier replacement, whom they must attempt to kill -immediately-).

Also, I don't do the "Three 20s = insta doom" rule. Why? Because criticals are -sick- enough already. Seen a Scythe fighter lately?

valadil
2007-10-06, 11:28 PM
I have no reservations about fudging rolls, but I still don't do it very often. Well that's not entirely true, it depends on which group I'm playing with. The group I ran a game for most recently is very anti PC death. They fudge liberally and you can tell. Here's an example:

DM "The monster crits. Josh how many hits do you have left?"
Josh "I'm at 18."
DM "Okay. Umm... You're at 3 now."

As a player, that kind of fudging takes the fun out of the combat. What's the point if there's no risk of death. When I ran a game for that group they complained that I didn't fudge rolls, yet oddly nobody ever died. I guess I was more subtle about it.

Anyway, most of my fudging is for the sake of getting the time of the session right. I don't always have enough material ready, or the stuff after a big fight is going to take a while so I'll extend a fight to fill in the rest of the session. My players would rather fight enemies with slightly inflated hit points than go home early.

I'm opposed to save or die spells ending important encounters too soon. I also wouldn't believe that a BBEG always rolled a natural 20 against save or die spells. I like showing players my 20s (and 1s) so I came up with a little trick to help out with that. I'm sure other DMs have done this too, but I've never seen it documented anywhere. You need a DM screen and 3 identical dice (they don't have to be identical but it helps the players from catching on). Set one to 1 another to 20 and use the third for actual rolls. The 1 and 20 should be in separate corners of the DM screen. When you need a 1 or 20, roll the legit die and then pull the screen away from the planted die. I haven't ever actually done this to players, but I like having the option. Here's a diagram. (http://files.thuranni.net/dmscreentrick.jpg)

Roderick_BR
2007-10-07, 12:40 AM
Dice? You need dice for this game?

But in all seriousness, I've DM'ed a few times and I usually go with what I roll, even if I'm rolling treasure before the session starts. Occasionally, as in that one time the first kobold the group encounter rolled three twenties and killed the fighter, I'll fudge it just because it makes the game go smoother. Though I'd like to note that I enjoy rolling the dice even when there's no reason too, keep the PC's guessing and all that.:belkar:
Oh, yeah. I love to do it sometimes.
DM: Jack, what's your Listen check?
Jack: It's +7.
DM Rolls
DM: And your flat-footed AC?
Jack: Uh... 18
DM Rolls a couple more times.
DM: So, as you walk down the hall, you meet this big metal door...
Jack: ...

JadedDM
2007-10-07, 12:56 AM
I notice that whenever someone asks the question, "Do you fudge?" people seem to mentally add the words "in combat" to that question.

Those of you who say you always let the dice fall where they may, does that include random encounters (even when they make no sense at all), random treasure, NPC personality traits, reaction rolls, the HP of the Big Bad (I know for a fact if the last boss had only 5 HP, I would fudge or at least reroll to get higher), and so forth?

Not all dice rolls are to hit, damage, and to save.

SoD
2007-10-07, 02:34 AM
Let me see...in combat, I generally fudge a little. Not because I want it to hit, but I remember roughly what the ACs and bonus's to hit for the monsters are...they're all written down happily behind my screen...but I tend to wander around the playing table during combat.

If any of my players can see the dice, or if I think they can, I take them as they roll.

My random encounters...I create them based on the area, so they usually make sense. If I roll something that doesn't make sense, well, I either try to think of a plausible reason why they'd be there...and failing that, I just reroll.

Random treasure-I love rolling for these, especially magic items. So occasionally I'll 'misread' a bit about how many, or percentage chances. Mind you, I usually try to get the random treasure sorted out beforehand, and have the monsters using the magic items, if possible.

NPCs-as they fall, although I don't usually use the traits generator dicey bit.

HP-as it falls...within reason. If the BBEG only had 5 health...I'd make an explanation as to why he was still in charge. Maybe he was a figure head? Anyway, without a reason, as with encounters, reroll.

And I also enjoy the random rolls to occasionally scare players.

Lord Zentei
2007-10-07, 02:39 AM
What are these "dice" you speak of? :smallconfused:


No, like some here, I fudge rolls if I've made a mistake, and for plot critical purposes (especially if the players have been roleplaying and strategizing well, and the roll was downright unfair). :smallwink:

OTOH, I have also on rare occasions fudged rolls to penalize bad players...

Ruerl
2007-10-07, 03:41 AM
Offcourse I fudge dicerolls, dicerolling is secondary to roleplaying anyway and I tend to play a very lose D&D, I don't care a **** about feats -I actually ignore them, most of my skill checks are 4d6-6d6 -stat modifier, roll below stat to succeed etc.

Makes for a quick and easy system, the second the system takes up more time than the roleplaying, thats the time it stops being a roleplaying game and starts being just a game, and honestly guys, there are funnier games out there :smallsmile:

Roog
2007-10-07, 04:58 AM
I notice that whenever someone asks the question, "Do you fudge?" people seem to mentally add the words "in combat" to that question.
In combat I try to adjust the quality of tactical options taken by the opposition if I need to adjust the difficulty.

I feel that if you are not willing to live with every possible outcome of a die, then you shouldn't roll (or give the PCs and BBEG action points, so that you can live with the results).


Those of you who say you always let the dice fall where they may, does that include random encounters (even when they make no sense at all),
Yes, although I use smaller specific encounter tables with the entries chosen to make sense for the circumstances.


random treasure,
Most treasure is non-randomly decided, just like the PCs gear is non-randomly decided. If I roll for random treasure, then there is no fudging.


NPC personality traits,
My NPCs don't normally have random personality traits, but if PCs had to have random personality traits then my NPCs would also have to have them.


reaction rolls,
No fudging


the HP of the Big Bad (I know for a fact if the last boss had only 5 HP, I would fudge or at least reroll to get higher), and so forth?
I play with non-random hitpoints per level, but if PCs have to stick with the 5 HP they rolled, then I would want the same for the BBEG.

Lord_Gareth
2007-10-07, 08:01 AM
I notice that whenever someone asks the question, "Do you fudge?" people seem to mentally add the words "in combat" to that question.

Those of you who say you always let the dice fall where they may, does that include random encounters (even when they make no sense at all), random treasure, NPC personality traits, reaction rolls, the HP of the Big Bad (I know for a fact if the last boss had only 5 HP, I would fudge or at least reroll to get higher), and so forth?

Not all dice rolls are to hit, damage, and to save.


Random Treasure - a myth in my game. I spend time meticulously crafting every bit of reward, usually so I can customize it to the party, though I occasionally jank or curse them (oh, Plate Mail of Vulnerability, how I love thee).

Random Encounters - Likewise, there usually are none, unless I'm using a module. And if I -am-, the module's table makes sense. I have found no exception to this rule thus far.

NpC Personality Traits - If you aren't good enough to wing it, get out from behind the screen.

Reaction Rolls - There should be no dice for this, it's common sense. The party of holy people walking in, some of which have halos (Nimbus of Light) get cheers/suspicion/religious intolerance depending on who you talk to, but otherwise, are treated pretty well. They have friggin' halos. Likewise, the party who rides in on black steeds of bone, radiating blight from their footsteps and making children scream at the very whisper of their name is not going to get a nice reception by the local guard.

H.P. - I don't fudge, I merely just don't roll. I told my players this when we started - the BBEG has max hit points, and they can -deal with it-.

Hzurr
2007-10-07, 08:14 AM
For the most part, I don't mess with rolls. My PCs have seen monsters crit on them, and they've seen monsters critically fail.

Typically, the only time I ever mess with results is to make up for previous mistakes. If I realize that early on in the encounter, I had forgotten to add in a certain modifier to the monster's attack roll, or if I hadn't calculated the skill points right for an NPCs sense motive check, then later on I'll add or subtract a few points here or there.

I'm not fan of games where PCs don't have to worry about death or the consequences of their actions. Similarly, if the PCs come up with brilliant plans, I don't want to change the game around so the plan doesn't work.

Roderick_BR
2007-10-07, 10:45 AM
Random Treasure - a myth in my game. I spend time meticulously crafting every bit of reward, usually so I can customize it to the party, though I occasionally jank or curse them (oh, Plate Mail of Vulnerability, how I love thee).

Random Encounters - Likewise, there usually are none, unless I'm using a module. And if I -am-, the module's table makes sense. I have found no exception to this rule thus far.

(...).
I like to use the dice to add variety to a game. If I just narrate the game without rolling dice, I should go write a book instead.
That said, I like to roll treasure, and just adjust it if needed, if there's only useless itens, or itens too powerful. Thing is, I roll the treasure before hand, so some monsters can use it ("Oh, I rolled an axe +1... it'll be in the hand of the orc, not inside the treasure chest...")

For random encounter, as people said, I make small random tables so I don't get polar bears in the middle of the tropical forest, and that's it. If they get bad luck, and get several strong encounters at once... too bad, for them XD

Chronos
2007-10-07, 12:21 PM
The DM certainly has the perogative to fudge rolls, when it makes for a better story. But it's important, for the sake of the game, that the appearance of randomness be maintained. And humans are absolutely lousy random number generators. So a good DM will almost never actually fudge rolls, because it quickly becomes obvious if he does.

That said, some things shouldn't be random in the first place. If it's just some mooks, half the party's level, then maybe a random treasure roll (from a suitably low table) would be reasonable. Or maybe some random weak items, added to a larger treasure for flavor. But you'd better believe the DM should exactly plot out what major loot the BBEG has.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-07, 02:26 PM
I don't play diceless any more because I do enjoy the random factor, going both ways.

That said, never let a die roll get in the way of a good story.

My fudging usually consists of not asking for (or making) rolls at times when it would be dramatically inconvenient (or just plain stupid) if the roll went wrong. That, and I sometimes adjust the opponent's stats in combat (at least, those stats the players are not aware of yet) for the sake of balance.

shaddy_24
2007-10-07, 09:47 PM
I've only been DMing for a short time, but I play it exactly as it lands. The only times I can think of that I didn't was when the monster made 3 attacks on one person, I rolled them all at the same time and rolled all 20s. Yah. I rolled only one as a crit. I think the other was to liven up a really boring encounter where two people went back and forth for 3 or 4 rounds with nothing happening, so when the player rolled a higher number than they had before, I ruled it a hit (it would have missed by 1). That's all I can think of.

Irreverent Fool
2007-10-07, 10:36 PM
I don't fudge, I add plot bonuses to rolls...

Thread over, quotable post has been made.

leperkhaun
2007-10-08, 04:44 PM
For the most part i try not to fudge dice alot. As a couple other posters have done, ill "forget" certian abilities, or play the critters dumber than they are.