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Talakeal
2019-06-13, 09:55 AM
At the end of my last session the players did a favor for a genie and were rewarded with a single wish. I gave them until the next session to think it over and discuss what to do with it.

Now, it is a legit wish, not some screwjob waiting to happen, I am not going to twist it. I was thinking it would be a wild card which allowed the players to break the story and take it in a new direction.

The problem is that anything cool that someone suggests an idea, someone else shoots it down for one of to reasons:

It is a storyline thing, and therefore wasted in the eyes of the more gamist players.

Or

It only benefits one member of the party and therefore the others are jealous.


So at this point it looks like they are just going to wish for gold or xp which they can split amongst themselves which, to me, feels like a giant waste of a wish. It is so boring and easy to come by, they have the opportunity to reshape the world and they are just going to use it on something they get anyway every time they go dungeon crawling.

So, any idea on how I can nudge them into wishing for something a bit more dramatic?

Altheus
2019-06-13, 10:06 AM
Don't bother nudging, this sort of thing warrants a full on rant.

"Come on you unimaginative tadpoles, this is a real opportunity to do things you never could otherwise, a kingdom - it's yours, a life of ease and plenty - it's yours, The swiftest horse in the world - it's yours, the most desirable partner etc. etc."

Kaptin Keen
2019-06-13, 10:27 AM
I approve of calling your players unimaginative tadpoles - regardless of context. Even if they're the most imaginative group of people you ever met ... keep them on their toes!

Other than that, usually I go for the old GM trope of saying .. slowly, ponderously even: .. are you sure that's what you want to do? I mean, are you absolutely positive this is the action your characters are going to decide on. It usually works.

MoiMagnus
2019-06-13, 10:35 AM
Do they need to come with a wish immediately?

As a player, the most interesting "god's favors", we used was the one we could use "in reaction".

Stuff like the sole survivor to an almost TPK saying "I wish we had won" (or any similar time alteration).
Or stuff where you get a solution out of nowhere ("I wish for an army of angels to save us"), change the resolution of a campaign arc and mess up with the DM's plans.

If they really want to have some "gamer-friendly" stuff, or if you need something immediate, design a set of relics (one per character) that you retcon as being "the OP artifacts every child wish to find" and suggest they may want them.
(Then you can talk with each player on what kind of effect they want for their personal relic)

Another fun suggestion is "everyone unlock a special power". Something which would not be accessible trough normal level up, for example a feature of another subclass of the same class, another class, or you can look for "psychic capacities" from any supplement containing Psions and letting them chose one power.

Lapak
2019-06-13, 11:37 AM
"IT IS CLEAR THAT YOU FEAR YOU WILL CHOOSE POORLY. THEREFORE, I WILL GIFT YOU WITH THE POWER TO UNDO A SINGLE MISTAKE."

Then have the genie give the party a use-activated item that, when broken, reverses time. Once and once only, they can time skip back to, oh, let's say an hour ago. That's a tool they can use in a lot of ways which range from ordinary (undo a single death, recover from a TPK) to imaginative (absolutely risk-free information gathering) to campaign-breaking (undo the unleashing of an Elder God, foil a conspiracy before it even begins.)

Segev
2019-06-13, 11:38 AM
Have the genie be listening. Grant the wish they ask for, and also the more interesting ones they came up with. Quietly. Perhaps gated behind quests.

What are some of the wishes they’re debating and shooting down?

Talakeal
2019-06-13, 12:13 PM
Have the genie be listening. Grant the wish they ask for, and also the more interesting ones they came up with. Quietly. Perhaps gated behind quests.

What are some of the wishes they’re debating and shooting down?

To free one of the player's souls that was sold to a devil, to remove the curse off a powerful cursed artifact they found, to resurrect a dead ancestor, to kill the BBEG.

Three of them were shot down for not having a mechanical benefit, the fourth because the artifact would make one of the PCs very powerful which would be unfair to the rest of the party.


"IT IS CLEAR THAT YOU FEAR YOU WILL CHOOSE POORLY. THEREFORE, I WILL GIFT YOU WITH THE POWER TO UNDO A SINGLE MISTAKE."

Then have the genie give the party a use-activated item that, when broken, reverses time. Once and once only, they can time skip back to, oh, let's say an hour ago. That's a tool they can use in a lot of ways which range from ordinary (undo a single death, recover from a TPK) to imaginative (absolutely risk-free information gathering) to campaign-breaking (undo the unleashing of an Elder God, foil a conspiracy before it even begins.)

Its not that they are afraid of making the wrong choice or that I will screw them, rather they only want wishes that have a permanent, tangible, mechanical effect that benefits the entire party evenly.


Do they need to come with a wish immediately?

As a player, the most interesting "god's favors", we used was the one we could use "in reaction".

Stuff like the sole survivor to an almost TPK saying "I wish we had won" (or any similar time alteration).
Or stuff where you get a solution out of nowhere ("I wish for an army of angels to save us"), change the resolution of a campaign arc and mess up with the DM's plans.

If they really want to have some "gamer-friendly" stuff, or if you need something immediate, design a set of relics (one per character) that you retcon as being "the OP artifacts every child wish to find" and suggest they may want them.
(Then you can talk with each player on what kind of effect they want for their personal relic)

Another fun suggestion is "everyone unlock a special power". Something which would not be accessible trough normal level up, for example a feature of another subclass of the same class, another class, or you can look for "psychic capacities" from any supplement containing Psions and letting them chose one power.

The thing is, I don't want the whole campaign to be about the ramifications of the wish. Its supposed to be one time cool thing that allows them to "go off the rails," not a fundamental shift in mechanical style. If I give everyone a special power or artifact, it is going to be a fairly minor one.

tyckspoon
2019-06-13, 12:28 PM
Three of them were shot down for not having a mechanical benefit, the fourth because the artifact would make one of the PCs very powerful which would be unfair to the rest of the party.


You're trying to give one reward to multiple people. This is always going to be a problem unless the people in question are already agreed about what they want (the easy result is if they all, for example, agree that they want to have a cool home base, in which case they go 'We wish for a castle' or an airship or a secret lair carved out of an ancient dead volcano with the magically-active corpse of a great wyrm at the center or something.) Unfortunately you don't have that, you have your players, no two of which seem to ever want the same thing out of the game :smallsigh:

Is there a group buff they all enjoy, some ability that normally burns a round to cast? Suggest they could Wish to have that become a permanent effect instead. Make them all emanate a 5-foot Circle of Protection or give them the Aura of Menace ability that Archons have. Have the genie offer to use the (presumably currently unusable because curse) artifact's power to buff all their equipment, give all their weapons and shields an additional +1 or +1 equivalent enhancement that won't count against the cost for future improvements.

jjordan
2019-06-13, 12:34 PM
You didn't mess up. Let the players hash it out and see how things work out. They'll make a good choice or a bad choice and it will contribute to the game in a little way or a big way. Don't try to nudge them.

Segev
2019-06-13, 12:53 PM
Why do they want a dead ancestor alive again? Is it somebody they knew? Do they have a different motive? (If so, what is it?)


Freeing the soul of a PC from a devil isn't going to have mechanical impact? I take it the devil doesn't collect in the context of the game, then?


Killing the BBEG does sound...anticlimactic, but is it really within the power of this genie? And how would that not benefit the whole party, if doable?


I know: they can wish for the bound soul of the BBEG, then trade that for a dual favor from the devil: the (far less awesome) soul of the PC back, and the devil cleansing the artifact. The devil, thinking he's clever, obliges by shoving a new soul into it. One he grabs from the past ties of the party. It's the dead ancestor! Now the artifact isn't cursed, but is a sentient item with the soul and memories of the dead ancestor and with a motive to help the party as a whole (or at least his descendent), while it is still best used by the guy who you said would benefit most greatly. He just...has more ties to use his power to help others in the party out, now.

Talakeal
2019-06-13, 01:14 PM
Why do they want a dead ancestor alive again? Is it somebody they knew? Do they have a different motive? (If so, what is it?).

The party is descended from a legendary hero. I assume they figure having him alive again would be tremendously helpful.


Freeing the soul of a PC from a devil isn't going to have mechanical impact? I take it the devil doesn't collect in the context of the game, then?

Its a backstory thing more or less. One of the PCs made a deal with the devil(s) before the game began. Its more of a long term storyline thing rather than an immediate impact.


Killing the BBEG does sound...anticlimactic, but is it really within the power of this genie? And how would that not benefit the whole party, if doable.

It is sort of within the genies capability. The BBEG has a trick up his sleeve that will allow him to survive, but at greatly diminished capacity, and the wish would make the final battle significantly easier for the PCs.

The thing is, one of the players is firmly in the camp of "if it doesnt increase a number on my character shee it doesnt matter,".

Segev
2019-06-13, 01:25 PM
Well, then, the only thing you can do is let them hash it out. Be impartial. Don't involve yourself, and don't allow yourself to care about what they wish for until they've made the wish. There's nothing wrong with the player who likes more numbers on his sheet, other than the fact that if that's literal, he is grossly incompetent at powergaming. Because some of the most powerful things you can do in most games don't directly increase numbers on your sheet.

MrSandman
2019-06-13, 01:30 PM
The thing is, one of the players is firmly in the camp of "if it doesnt increase a number on my character shee it doesnt matter,".

You can tell that player that even if it increases a number on his character sheet it won't matter because you will thenceforth tailor encounters to render that increase irrelevant. wink wink, tongue in cheek response.

Jay R
2019-06-13, 02:00 PM
Wishes are great. But they are also dangerous if you don't trust your DM 100% to rule exactly the way you expect him to rule.

Unless they have absolute faith that your approach to the game matches theirs, and that there could never be a misunderstanding between you, you will not convince them to get more dramatic.

Kyutaru
2019-06-13, 02:05 PM
Tell them they could solve all their problems if one of them wished to become an all-powerful genie.

noob
2019-06-13, 03:10 PM
Tell them they could solve all their problems if one of them wished to become an all-powerful genie.

What problems?
Like if anything was a problem for an adventurer?
being in abyss and on fire and in acid and right under the foot of a balor surrounded by an army of demons is not having a problem: it is being in an target rich environment.
The evil king betraying you and getting busy shovelling orphans in a furnace to fuel a world destroying machine is not a problem: it is a character development opportunity.

MrSandman
2019-06-13, 03:18 PM
What problems?


The problem of not being able to agree on what to wish, presumably.

jintoya
2019-06-13, 03:35 PM
The evil king betraying you and getting busy shovelling orphans in a furnace to fuel a world destroying machine is not a problem: it is a character development opportunity.

I'd grab a shovel and outdo him, he's my kind of King.

Lord Torath
2019-06-13, 04:16 PM
Is the one who wants bigger numbers on his sheet the same one who wants his equivalent gold share of any magic items that go to anyone other than him? A.k.a. Bob? Not that it really matters.

Assure them you have no intentions of twisting their wish and that the genie will tell them before-hand if they wish for more than he can deliver, and let them hash it out. In fact, have the genie attempt to clarify what they want, just to be sure they're getting what they actually want.

At the start of the next session, if they still can't agree, have the Genie (in character) give them each 1-2 minutes to present their wish and the reasoning behind it, and take a vote. Then have the genie ask any clarifying questions necessary about the wish that won the vote, and grant said wish. Don't let them drag it out into two hours of debate.

Don't take any crap from "Bob" if he complains to you. It's a group decision, and he needs to deal with it.

Talakeal
2019-06-13, 04:34 PM
Is the one who wants bigger numbers on his sheet the same one who wants his equivalent gold share of any magic items that go to anyone other than him? A.k.a. Bob? Not that it really matters.

You already know the answer to this one :smallsmile:

zinycor
2019-06-13, 04:41 PM
I don't get it... Why is that a problem? let them make whatever wish they want. Isn't that the whole point of a wish? If you didn't want them to do so, why did you even gave them the option?

Kyutaru
2019-06-13, 04:44 PM
The problem of not being able to agree on what to wish, presumably.

Bingo! Make one guy a genie and then use him to grant everyone more wishes. The party member now fits in a knapsack too and has phenomenal cosmic power.

Kardwill
2019-06-13, 04:48 PM
Well, then, the only thing you can do is let them hash it out. Be impartial. Don't involve yourself, and don't allow yourself to care about what they wish for until they've made the wish.

And once the wish is done, even if it's something boring like money or attribute points, try to make it cool, maybe give it ramifications, so that it doesn't look like a missed opportunity. Not "screw you over" ramifications, but opportunities and cool factor. The money is made entirely of currency from some mysterious, long-dead civilisation, the attribute points or XP are obtained by channeling the power of their dead ancestor, something that comes with a new quest opportunity, that kind of things.

It may not be easy to pull off in the heat of the moment (especially since any complication this creates should not feel like it undermines their reward, but adds to it), but I think it could be story fuel, or at least give the Players that care about it (i.e. anyone but Bob) something cool to brag about that goes beyond mere numbers.

Talakeal
2019-06-13, 04:49 PM
I don't get it... Why is that a problem? let them make whatever wish they want. Isn't that the whole point of a wish? If you didn't want them to do so, why did you even gave them the option?

The problem isnt that they are wishing too big, but too small. I want them to make a wish, to do something grand and shake things up a little.

zinycor
2019-06-13, 04:53 PM
The problem isnt that they are wishing too big, but too small. I want them to make a wish, to do something grand and shake things up a little.

Exactly, no problem at all, grant them that and move on to the next thing. If you want players to wish whatever you think is cool and/or awesome, then you will have to be a player, not a gm.

Talakeal
2019-06-13, 05:16 PM
Exactly, no problem at all, grant them that and move on to the next thing. If you want players to wish whatever you think is cool and/or awesome, then you will have to be a player, not a gm.

That's a very pessimistic way to look at things.

The Library DM
2019-06-13, 05:20 PM
Others above forgot to continue the quote a bit further “...and everything that comes with it.”

That’s where the DM steps in— not with a cruel interpretation of the wish, but with the perfectly natural and logical consequences of the wish.

For example, if they wish they’d won the “wish” lottery, they’d also get:
The tax man coming to collect his share. Or else.
Relatives/old friends/new old friends crawling out of the woodwork for a “loan for my great investment/tied me over/save the family farm, etc., etc..”
Lots of attention from people who absolutely love them and want to get married, super-quick...
Strong encouragement to make a sizable donation to the local temple/shrine/Thieves Guild.
Oh, yeah. Other unwanted attention by the Thieves Guild.
So much gold the local economy collapses due to hyperinflation (Google Mansa Musa), and everyone now hates them.
The arrival of a dragon whose treasure horde it once was.
The close attention of the BBEG, who could use the treasure for his own nefarious ends.

Not to mention the issues of how to move it (gold weighs A LOT), where to store it, how to access it, how to keep others from accessing it without approval, and so on.

Mundane wishes can have very interesting results.

As for the “I want my ‘stats’ to go up” dude, I say (as the genie): “Prithee, little brother, what meaneth thee by ‘stats’? This word I knoweth not, and thus may not complete thy wish.”
Asking for specific game mechanic enhancements is a non-starter with me, as the characters don’t think in such terms, nor do the beings they encounter. It’s the character who is making the wish, not the player!
So, no wishes that they all “level up” (“This term I knoweth not”). Similarly, no wishes that their hit points go up, or their Constitutions, or anything of the sort, or any other reference to rule specific concepts. And thus, no “rules lawyer” wishes can be made.
If “Bob” can be made to understand that, then maybe he’ll shift to suggesting more imaginative wishes that benefit the group.

Or they can vote, and “Bob’s” character can be given a consolation gift of a big bonus on the next treasure find.

tyckspoon
2019-06-13, 05:37 PM
or their Constitutions, or anything of the sort,

'I want to increase my Constitution' may be an awkward phrasing, but it's a perfectly sensible sentence - strength, intelligence, wisdom, charisma, dexterity, and constitution are understandable concepts that mean more or less the same thing they do in the game rules. These are even standard Wishes for D&D 3.5 - they'll result in gaining an Inherent bonus to the relevant stat.

Excession
2019-06-13, 05:39 PM
Its not that they are afraid of making the wrong choice or that I will screw them, rather they only want wishes that have a permanent, tangible, mechanical effect that benefits the entire party evenly.

Yes, how dare players wish to be fair, balanced, and not break the game. How dare they! Better players would use their wishes to further your story, not benefit their characters.

Seriously, you gave them a wish, just for once give them the agency to go along with it.


The thing is, I don't want the whole campaign to be about the ramifications of the wish. Its supposed to be one time cool thing that allows them to "go off the rails," not a fundamental shift in mechanical style. If I give everyone a special power or artifact, it is going to be a fairly minor one.

Did you explicitly tell your players this? Do you really truly mean it? "Be careful what you wish for" is an old trope, and I wouldn't blame players or characters for sticking to it. Djinn are not to be trusted, and quite often GMs aren't either.

In terms of "taking the story in a new direction"... the story is going to continue no matter what the players do. Unless they can see where it's going, and what a change would bring, changing direction is meaningless to the players.

Mr Beer
2019-06-13, 05:50 PM
Just give them what they wish for, like you literally handed the players a chance to do something nice for themselves and now you're bitching because they're going to do something for them instead of for you.

If you want some other stuff to happen that's more interesting for you, stick that into the campaign next episode. This is such a non-issue.

zinycor
2019-06-13, 05:53 PM
That's a very pessimistic way to look at things.

Hm? Am not sure you are getting my point...

Is not that players never acomplish anything cool, or make interesting choices, is that those choices, cool or otherwise, are theirs to make. As a Gm Your job is to set up situations for them to react to in whatever way they see fit. It's not up to you to judge them, if you think their choices are boring and whatever, you should either get comfortable with that or get a new group to play with.

The point is, Your players are doing allright, they have the right to take a boring choice if they so choose. You are the one who either is ok with that, or gets a new group.

icefractal
2019-06-13, 06:11 PM
I mean, gold is a pretty boring choice. On the other hand, one single Wish is hard to share among a group. It sounds like the main issue is that "Bob" is dragging everyone down to that level by having very specific criteria for what's acceptable.

I'm not sure if it would make sense to do it for now, but for future situations like this I'd go with a lottery system. Everyone makes a Wish, determine randomly which one comes true.

Kyutaru
2019-06-13, 07:16 PM
Players: "We wish our DM would allow us to actually make our own decisions."
DM: "Oh this wish is getting corrupted hardcore. BELIEVE IT!!!"

Talakeal
2019-06-13, 07:43 PM
Hm? Am not sure you are getting my point...

Is not that players never acomplish anything cool, or make interesting choices, is that those choices, cool or otherwise, are theirs to make. As a Gm Your job is to set up situations for them to react to in whatever way they see fit. It's not up to you to judge them, if you think their choices are boring and whatever, you should either get comfortable with that or get a new group to play with.

The point is, Your players are doing allright, they have the right to take a boring choice if they so choose. You are the one who either is ok with that, or gets a new group.



Just give them what they wish for, like you literally handed the players a chance to do something nice for themselves and now you're bitching because they're going to do something for them instead of for you.

If you want some other stuff to happen that's more interesting for you, stick that into the campaign next episode. This is such a non-issue.


The problem is none of them WANT to make a boring choice, they all have interesting ideas, but because they all have different OOC desires for the game and are all somewhat competitive / jealous of one another that they are going to go with the most bland thing possible.

Its not about what I want, frankly the blander the wish the easier my job is as it doesn't disrupt the plot / game balance and I can just keep running the game as is. But I wanted a wish to feel awesome, and as one of the players said today, wishing for gold or XP is "The lamest of all possible wishes."

Heck, I could have sidestepped the entire problem by saying "As a reward I am going to grant you one wish, each."



I mean, gold is a pretty boring choice. On the other hand, one single Wish is hard to share among a group. It sounds like the main issue is that "Bob" is dragging everyone down to that level by having very specific criteria for what's acceptable.

I'm not sure if it would make sense to do it for now, but for future situations like this I'd go with a lottery system. Everyone makes a Wish, determine randomly which one comes true.

That could work, although it could also be a bitch storm from the losers.


Yes, how dare players wish to be fair, balanced, and not break the game. How dare they! Better players would use their wishes to further your story, not benefit their characters.

I know you are joking, but seriously, wow is giving the players the ability to shake up the narrative in an unexpected way furthering my story? Isn't it the complete opposite of that?


Others above forgot to continue the quote a bit further “...and everything that comes with it.”

That’s where the DM steps in— not with a cruel interpretation of the wish, but with the perfectly natural and logical consequences of the wish.

For example, if they wish they’d won the “wish” lottery, they’d also get:
The tax man coming to collect his share. Or else.
Relatives/old friends/new old friends crawling out of the woodwork for a “loan for my great investment/tied me over/save the family farm, etc., etc..”
Lots of attention from people who absolutely love them and want to get married, super-quick...
Strong encouragement to make a sizable donation to the local temple/shrine/Thieves Guild.
Oh, yeah. Other unwanted attention by the Thieves Guild.
So much gold the local economy collapses due to hyperinflation (Google Mansa Musa), and everyone now hates them.
The arrival of a dragon whose treasure horde it once was.
The close attention of the BBEG, who could use the treasure for his own nefarious ends.

Not to mention the issues of how to move it (gold weighs A LOT), where to store it, how to access it, how to keep others from accessing it without approval, and so on.

Mundane wishes can have very interesting results.

As for the “I want my ‘stats’ to go up” dude, I say (as the genie): “Prithee, little brother, what meaneth thee by ‘stats’? This word I knoweth not, and thus may not complete thy wish.”
Asking for specific game mechanic enhancements is a non-starter with me, as the characters don’t think in such terms, nor do the beings they encounter. It’s the character who is making the wish, not the player!
So, no wishes that they all “level up” (“This term I knoweth not”). Similarly, no wishes that their hit points go up, or their Constitutions, or anything of the sort, or any other reference to rule specific concepts. And thus, no “rules lawyer” wishes can be made.
If “Bob” can be made to understand that, then maybe he’ll shift to suggesting more imaginative wishes that benefit the group.

Or they can vote, and “Bob’s” character can be given a consolation gift of a big bonus on the next treasure find.

I really don't want to screw them over with this. If they are going to wish for something boring, that is "punishment" enough, I am not going to compound it with GM jackassery.

zinycor
2019-06-13, 07:50 PM
The problem is none of them WANT to make a boring choice, they all have interesting ideas, but because they all have different OOC desires for the game and are all somewhat competitive / jealous of one another that they are going to go with the most bland thing possible.

Its not about what I want, frankly the blander the wish the easier my job is as it doesn't disrupt the plot / game balance and I can just keep running the game as is. But I wanted a wish to feel awesome, and as one of the players said today, wishing for gold or XP is "The lamest of all possible wishes."


If there are OOC reasons for the group not working well, you should address those before continuing to play, if you (As in your group) are unable to solve these problems, wrap up the adventure and find a new group.

No gaming is better than bad gaming.

Talakeal
2019-06-13, 07:58 PM
If there are OOC reasons for the group not working well, you should address those before continuing to play, if you (As in your group) are unable to solve these problems, wrap up the adventure and find a new group.

No gaming is better than bad gaming.

Its not a "problem" per se, different gamers enjoy different things. The odds of finding a gaming group where everyone wants exactly the same thing out of the game is vanishingly small, I would be surprised if there is a single group on the planet where everyone even falls into the same general player archetype (meaning in Bartle's Taxonomy, the old Munchkin / Loony / Real Man / Real RPer divide, or something like https://gamified.uk/UserTypeTest2016/user-type-test.php#.XQLxGPZFwy-)

Mr Beer
2019-06-13, 08:25 PM
The problem is none of them WANT to make a boring choice, they all have interesting ideas, but because they all have different OOC desires for the game and are all somewhat competitive / jealous of one another that they are going to go with the most bland thing possible.

Its not about what I want, frankly the blander the wish the easier my job is as it doesn't disrupt the plot / game balance and I can just keep running the game as is. But I wanted a wish to feel awesome, and as one of the players said today, wishing for gold or XP is "The lamest of all possible wishes."

Heck, I could have sidestepped the entire problem by saying "As a reward I am going to grant you one wish, each."

Cool, do that then.

If giving them agency means they do boring stuff and it annoys you, game elsewhere.

Talakeal
2019-06-13, 08:36 PM
If giving them agency means they do boring stuff and it annoys you, game elsewhere.

The players are not having fun because the group has agency but the individuals within it do not.

Are you seriously saying that a GM shouldn't be "annoyed" that something they thought would be fun for the players is instead turning into a massive disappointment for the players?

zinycor
2019-06-13, 08:50 PM
Its not a "problem" per se, different gamers enjoy different things. The odds of finding a gaming group where everyone wants exactly the same thing out of the game is vanishingly small, I would be surprised if there is a single group on the planet where everyone even falls into the same general player archetype (meaning in Bartle's Taxonomy, the old Munchkin / Loony / Real Man / Real RPer divide, or something like https://gamified.uk/UserTypeTest2016/user-type-test.php#.XQLxGPZFwy-)

First, I didn't imply that you need a group where everyone has the same interests, you said


The problem is none of them WANT to make a boring choice, they all have interesting ideas, but because they all have different OOC desires for the game and are all somewhat competitive / jealous of one another that they are going to go with the most bland thing possible.


(Emphasis mine)

If they are competing and being jealous of one another on a cooperative game, that is not enjoying the game in a different way, that's a problem that needs to be addresed since it goes against the very basics of the game. (since I understand you are playing a DnD adjacent game, and not something like paranoia)

If your group can't work as a team, in regards to everyone at the table having a good time, then you better start working on that.

Again, this doesn't mean there can't be players focused on mechaics while there are players more focused on RP (Or any other Archetype), those interactions are fun and players get to learn from one another, make jokes and enjoy. The point is that your table needs to work together, By which I mean, Players need to trust one another as players, trust that the GM will havetheir interests in mind, and the Gm to trust the players on playing within the world. Not to mention that the group needs to respect eachother on the basic levels as people.

Hope it works.

NichG
2019-06-13, 10:15 PM
Interesting things are more likely when an individual decides rather than a committee. I think it's important to give players a way to justify making personally motivated decisions through metagame design.

For example, the genie contacts each character in private and asks 'what is your driving purpose?', then offers a Wish based on what it heard from everyone. Or the genie says 'you have 5 minutes to decide' which at least cuts down on the back and forth.

Of course, if one person picks one time, you should make sure there are comparable opportunities for everyone else in the near future.

Mr Beer
2019-06-13, 11:03 PM
The players are not having fun because the group has agency but the individuals within it do not.

Are you seriously saying that a GM shouldn't be "annoyed" that something they thought would be fun for the players is instead turning into a massive disappointment for the players?

That isn't how you put it in your opening post. It was sad and boring for you but not for them.

If you hand your players a Wish and they are bored and sad about it, that seems like it's on them. Again, if you think this would be fixed by giving them a Wish each...do that.

Djiini
2019-06-14, 04:30 AM
You guys are being kinda insane shoving this guy for wanting the wish to be used for something that actually matters. The GM is allowed to have fun too--amazing, right?

Cluedrew
2019-06-14, 04:51 AM
So, any idea on how I can nudge them into wishing for something a bit more dramatic?Get rid of "Bob"? More seriously I'm going to go with the "free them from restrictions" routine, so tell them the genie hears them discussing and offers to split it up into a wish each. You know "ands" are generally considered bad form in wishes but if you want to do "this for her and that for him and this thing for those two" as long as the whole thing is doable I can do that.

I switched to kind of narrating the genie part way through but it should get the idea across.

Anymage
2019-06-14, 05:55 AM
Heck, I could have sidestepped the entire problem by saying "As a reward I am going to grant you one wish, each."

Midway through the last page I was thinking this very thing. Since one of the main complaints is that most of the players have interesting, plot-shaking wishes that have the disadvantage that they primarily benefit one character, tell your players you're retconning it so everybody gets something cool. That's more campaign shakeup for you, and every player gets to feel like they get something they wanted. Come right out and say that you didn't realize that one player getting their wish would use it up for everybody else, offer to retcon it to one wish each, and I don't think anybody will complain too loudly.

Merellis
2019-06-14, 07:58 AM
A giant mountain of gold can totally shake things up.

They can get a castle, bribe their way into nobility, get an army of mercenaries, hire people to look into legends and magic to help deal with the evil they wish to defeat, fund research to new magic.

Of course, that only depends on what they want to spend the gold on.

You can also start giving them political enemies if they go that direction, because how dare these upstarts get so rich! :smallfurious:

Vaern
2019-06-14, 10:10 AM
To free one of the player's souls that was sold to a devil, to remove the curse off a powerful cursed artifact they found, to resurrect a dead ancestor, to kill the BBEG.

Three of them were shot down for not having a mechanical benefit, the fourth because the artifact would make one of the PCs very powerful which would be unfair to the rest of the party.
Whether or not it has a mechanical benefit shouldn't be an issue. All of those sound like things that, realistically, their characters would want. I'd argue that, in particular, freeing the one player's soul would be a very good idea... Devils have this nasty habit of having the people they deal with hunted down and killed to collect early on their souls and to prevent them from seeking atonement or otherwise removing the devil's claim from their soul. Whether or not you intend for this to be the case or whether you consider it to be a "mechanical effect," this is still a huge threat from the character's perspective that is constantly looming over him and something that he would want to be free of.

zinycor
2019-06-14, 10:16 AM
I have to say, giant amounts of money isn't a bad wish at all, now every character would be able to advance in the story in whatever way they feel like with the huge asset of being rich.

Edit: btw, how rich are we talking about? And what form would this amount of money take? A big pile of gold? assets such as land or property? Is it a whole country, a continent, or just a big house?

I do think that as the GM you Could take this wish and make it very, very interesting.

noob
2019-06-14, 11:46 AM
I have to say, giant amounts of money isn't a bad wish at all, now every character would be able to advance in the story in whatever way they feel like with the huge asset of being rich.

Edit: btw, how rich are we talking about? And what form would this amount of money take? A big pile of gold? assets such as land or property? Is it a whole country, a continent, or just a big house?

I do think that as the GM you Could take this wish and make it very, very interesting.

15000 gp.
it is the cap from wish in gold when it have one(looking at you dnd 3).

Lord of Shadows
2019-06-14, 12:08 PM
I know: they can wish for the bound soul of the BBEG, then trade that for a dual favor from the devil: the (far less awesome) soul of the PC back, and the devil cleansing the artifact. The devil, thinking he's clever, obliges by shoving a new soul into it. One he grabs from the past ties of the party. It's the dead ancestor! Now the artifact isn't cursed, but is a sentient item with the soul and memories of the dead ancestor and with a motive to help the party as a whole (or at least his decendent), while it is still best used by the guy who you said would benefit most greatly. He just...has more ties to use his power to help others in the party out, now.

This is a great way to connect several dots together... Or....


Come right out and say that you didn't realize that one player getting their wish would use it up for everybody else, offer to retcon it to one wish each, and I don't think anybody will complain too loudly.

The Djinn could even do this in-game, claiming that "fate has decreed," or "the powers have spoken," or some such. Or, if they settle on one wish that is obviously a compromise they are not all happy with, say the Djinn has decided to reward them for their ability to compromise by granting each a wish, but it must be done now. Presumably, they each had their own wish anyway that didn't get chosen by the party and will be ready to go.

Something like that..

Friv
2019-06-14, 04:06 PM
If they are competing and being jealous of one another on a cooperative game, that is not enjoying the game in a different way, that's a problem that needs to be addresed since it goes against the very basics of the game. (since I understand you are playing a DnD adjacent game, and not something like paranoia)

If your group can't work as a team, in regards to everyone at the table having a good time, then you better start working on that.

Again, this doesn't mean there can't be players focused on mechaics while there are players more focused on RP (Or any other Archetype), those interactions are fun and players get to learn from one another, make jokes and enjoy. The point is that your table needs to work together, By which I mean, Players need to trust one another as players, trust that the GM will have their interests in mind, and the Gm to trust the players on playing within the world. Not to mention that the group needs to respect eachother on the basic levels as people.

Hope it works.

I'm guessing you aren't familiar with Talakeal's gaming stories, right?

Basically, this group is deeply dysfunctional and has been for ages, a lot of attempts have been made to fix things which have all failed, and Tal won't just walk away from them for a variety of reasons.

It's not really a solvable problem at this point.

Spo
2019-06-14, 06:56 PM
Sorry if this has been suggested already, but if they wish for the death of the end boss, grant it by creating a stronger creature that killed the boss.

Big bad dragon their nemesis? Now they have to contend with the Fire Giant who just killed it.

Powerful wizard or evil king the object of their ire? Well now they have a demon or a neighboring kingdom who invaded and killed the king to contend with instead.

Merellis
2019-06-14, 07:07 PM
Get them to discuss it in character!

Should be hilarious to see who snaps first, one of the adventurers, or the djinn.

antiochcow
2019-06-14, 07:26 PM
I'd just let them do whatever. As a GM it doesn't bug me if they wish for a mountain of gold or a turkey sandwich.

At least since it's not a screwjob-wish they won't have to specify that they don't want zombie turkey, or to turn into a turkey, or any other weird surprises.

Merellis
2019-06-14, 08:02 PM
I'd just let them do whatever. As a GM it doesn't bug me if they wish for a mountain of gold or a turkey sandwich.

At least since it's not a screwjob-wish they won't have to specify that they don't want zombie turkey, or to turn into a turkey, or any other weird surprises.

The screwjob is that the turkey is a little dry.

That'll get them to curse you forever.

tyckspoon
2019-06-14, 08:03 PM
The screwjob is that the turkey is a little dry.

That'll get them to curse you forever.

*impotently shakes fist in rage* Came here to post this.

antiochcow
2019-06-15, 01:54 AM
The screwjob is that the turkey is a little dry.

That'll get them to curse you forever.

But would it be dry if it's not a screwjob wish? :-O

The Library DM
2019-06-15, 10:35 PM
I really don't want to screw them over with this. If they are going to wish for something boring, that is "punishment" enough, I am not going to compound it with GM jackassery.

I’m not suggesting GM jackassery. I’m suggesting that even a seemingly boring wish, even when fulfilled in a completely above board not-gonna-jerk-you fashion, has the potential to trigger far from boring story possibilities. Story rises from conflict— no conflict, no story, and no D&D adventure. As the DM it is your job to bring conflict to the players. Rather the point of the game!

If they wish for gold, then yes, the mere existence of the gold in their possession has plot consequences and story potential, of which I listed a few possibilities. Some were just role playing opportunities or even just potentially humorous. But others have great potential to add to your campaign, and thus their fun, even if it takes everyone into unexpected directions— which is what you’re saying you want. So use that.

As to what others are saying regarding jealousy, I wouldn’t reward that by granting more wishes. If anything, I’d take the wish away and instead have the djinn gift each of them with a specific, plot-aiding boon suited to that particular character, offered in the way the djinn would think is best. For one it might be a magic item. For another, it might be an improved stat. For a third, it might simply be useful knowledge. Whatever the djinn thinks will make the character’s life or mission better. And note that yes, this gift will be what the djinn approves of, according to the alignment and nature of the djinn. (So an evil character might receive something that pushes him towards redemption. Yes, the player can decide the character rejects it, but there’s story potential in there as well.) What this solution does is twofold: It moves the story forward and out of the “what to wish” loop y’all seem to be caught in, AND it is a subtle message to the players that if they can’t work together, then agency is going to be removed until they learn how.

Or you could decide that the djinn is fed up with this, and declares which character gets to make the wish (who will be closest to the djinn in nature and alignment), and the others have no say. (Or ignore alignment and simply pick the player who either has the most sense— or maybe rather the player who has the least sense, so that he won’t storm off in a huff... unless maybe that would actually be best for the gaming group...)

Personally, I don’t like these latter suggestions. I’m all about the story possibility. But I include them as things to consider.

~Corvus~
2019-06-16, 07:52 AM
Here's another great way to resolve this "wish issue." Ask each person to translate their OOC desires into an IC-motivation. It would create conflict, which can be resolved thusly...

As the characters bicker and argue, they find themselves wandering within the Genie's cave. Minutes turn into hours, and with aid from the Genie's magic, they don't realize they've made their way deeper into his cave. They've entered a section deep within the winding depths of the cave, and there's both a coolness to the walls and a low, ambient warmth from the magical torches that line the chamber.

Seven figures, well-clothed and with tipping crowns, slump over in their individual thrones, each clasping--barely--an item of great finery and craftsmanship. Each of them would look magnificent if it wasn't for the fact they're all skeletons.

"Ah, the genie says with a smile. The Hall of Sleeping Monarchs. Once, a great number people of Nabdah, believing they would be better rulers of the Sultanate, asked to be rulers of the city.

...I was more foolish, then, and vindictive, so I let them become rulers but bound them to these chambers. Their tasks were many, and the city did well...for a time. Eventually, the city was invaded and, because the rulers were bound here, I had them sleep and, well... He gestures to the figures. "Perhaps you all can resolve your frustrations here?

(At this point, you probably have an idea of the items that each player would enjoy, right? They have to take the items from each of the "Sleeping rulers," which are tough Skeletons, all with appropriate class levels + d12s)

I leave the combat details up to you, but you now have the PCs on good footing, and will get more loot AND XP, which is essentially what they'd wished for in the first place, but they just WORK for it.

This also gives a nod to the possibility that the genie could have tried to screw them over harder, but is giving them a fighting chance. Anyways, I hope it gets your thoughts stirring.

Talakeal
2019-06-16, 09:36 AM
Well, we played again.

The PCs couldn't agree on a wish, and we were short on time because someone had to work early, so I just told them that the genie said they could come back once they had made up their minds.

At this rate I doubt the PCs will ever actually make a wish as they will never agree; so in effect I really messed up by giving them a reward that is wholly illusory.

MrSandman
2019-06-16, 10:17 AM
At this rate I doubt the PCs will ever actually make a wish as they will never agree; so in effect I really messed up by giving them a reward that is wholly illusory.

Hey, if they can't agree on it, don't beat yourself, it's their own fault.

zinycor
2019-06-16, 10:50 AM
Well, we played again.

The PCs couldn't agree on a wish, and we were short on time because someone had to work early, so I just told them that the genie said they could come back once they had made up their minds.

At this rate I doubt the PCs will ever actually make a wish as they will never agree; so in effect I really messed up by giving them a reward that is wholly illusory.

I don't get how you messed up.... it's them who couldn't agree on a wish, not you. And having it be ready in case of emergency seems like a fine decision by the players.

Don't beat yourself over it

Lord of Shadows
2019-06-16, 11:28 AM
At this rate I doubt the PCs will ever actually make a wish as they will never agree; so in effect I really messed up by giving them a reward that is wholly illusory.

Just file this away, because sooner or later one of your players will utter those most doom-filled of all words, "I wish..." They may realize what they said after they say it, and try to stop, but you must force them to complete it. Wish used.

Best of all, it's not on you if its something stupid. It's all on them. And if someone complains, just shrug and say, "You had your chance before, now it's nothing but fate."

Chances are it will be for something that will help the party, since many times such utterances are made in frustration at not being able to do something. Whatever, wish used.

Just as an aside, I find it odd that such a dysfunctional party can accomplish anything... how do they agree on which way to go at an intersection?
.

Kyutaru
2019-06-16, 12:49 PM
"Oh man, that sucked. I wish we never took this stupid quest."

*Robin Williams appears*

"WISH GRANTED!"

Merellis
2019-06-16, 03:47 PM
They couldn't agree on a wish? That's kind of more hilarious than one of them just blurting out a wish, in a sad kind of hilarious.

I agree with Lord of Shadows, the second one of them says something like "I wish," you should pounce on that with a "YOUR WISH IS GRANTED."

AdAstra
2019-06-16, 08:09 PM
If they all want their own separate thing, why let them do it? Have the genie have somewhere else to be, or have something they need done. In exchange for doing the task or making it quick, they can each get something that might not be a whole wish, but enough to do most of the things they seem to want (maybe not the artifact or BBEG-kill one). If they can't decide on what to do together, splitting it up so they can decide separately seems the way to go.

Cikomyr
2019-06-17, 07:33 AM
The point I just can't get over is that they don't want to make a story - related Wish because "that would be the waste of a Wish"

Jesus Christ players. Are you so uninvested in the world and characters and story that you think it'll be a video game linear narrative where everything has to turn out ok and you can't change the story the GM has imagined?!

The Glyphstone
2019-06-17, 10:32 AM
The point I just can't get over is that they don't want to make a story - related Wish because "that would be the waste of a Wish"

Jesus Christ players. Are you so uninvested in the world and characters and story that you think it'll be a video game linear narrative where everything has to turn out ok and you can't change the story the GM has imagined?!

This is Talakeal's game group. So the answer to that is either 'Yes' or 'Bob'.

Cikomyr
2019-06-17, 10:39 AM
This is Talakeal's game group. So the answer to that is either 'Yes' or 'Bob'.

Oh.. Is there a history I should know about..?

The Glyphstone
2019-06-17, 10:47 AM
Oh.. Is there a history I should know about..?

Go read the last dozen or so of Tak's threads here detailing the immediate short-term dysfunctionalities involved in this group, it's probably easier than summarizing the madness.

zinycor
2019-06-17, 11:07 AM
Oh.. Is there a history I should know about..?

Long story short, Talakeal is in a very dysfunctional group that he refuses to leave. In it, there is this player known as Bob (not his real name) who is a real *******, and for some very flimsy reason they can't seem to kick him out.

Cikomyr
2019-06-17, 11:17 AM
Oh Jesus Christ.

Okay. Yes. Bob is the problem

The problen is not the Wish. The problem is Bob.

"I insist that I stat-benefit from any reward we get, and I don't care about the story"

Reminds me of this guy

https://vhx.imgix.net/thegamers/thumbnails/2397/e01e68bc-1d23-426d-bcb6-f83cd39aa078/frame_0001.png?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=crop&h=360&w=640

King of Nowhere
2019-06-17, 11:44 AM
The thing is, one of the players is firmly in the camp of "if it doesnt increase a number on my character shee it doesnt matter,".

I'd give the guy 3 ranks in "profession: cleaning cesspits with a toothbrush" for free. Maybe also 3 ranks in "profession: banana straightener". so he can't say he's not getting numbers on his sheet.




Just as an aside, I find it odd that such a dysfunctional party can accomplish anything... how do they agree on which way to go at an intersection?
.
well, technically traveling on a road can be considered a challenge, so there are mechanical benefits to it... or maybe talakeal is awarding bob xp for all the bugs he accidentally squashes while walking on the road

perhaps that's why he does not ditch the group. many opportunities for fun once you start seeing the disfunctionalities as laughing material

LordEntrails
2019-06-17, 11:46 AM
Well, we played again.

The PCs couldn't agree on a wish, and we were short on time because someone had to work early, so I just told them that the genie said they could come back once they had made up their minds.

At this rate I doubt the PCs will ever actually make a wish as they will never agree; so in effect I really messed up by giving them a reward that is wholly illusory.

All that is fine, and doesn't mean you made a mistake. I allowed my players to find Dumation's gem (i.e. old school Undermountain, a gods gems that is worth a million gold or so) and it was fun at the time, but the party hasn't done anything with it. In fact they have yet to remove it from the bag of holding they placed it in. Because they know they have something awesome, and they know that as soon as they reveal they possess it something is likely to happen. i.e. they know very few people could ever afford to buy if from them, but they could afford to send thugs, assassins, devils, etc to loot it from their dead bodies. So, they hold onto it, the keep it's secret, and it stays a roleplaying topic they return to on rare occasions.

Has not worked out like I thought it would (break it up and sell the pieces), but it continues to add value to our game long after I thought it would be used up.

Psyren
2019-06-17, 04:36 PM
OP, I would posit that the imagination opportunity might lie with you.

Wishes can grant their effects gradually over time. Using this fact as a guide, even the most mundane wish can - entirely without twisting - be used to effect a much more dramatic result. If the players wish for boring old wealth for example, you don't have to just have bags of gold appear at their feet; you can for example have a breathless rider show up shortly after the wish with a deed or benefactor's will in his possession, where an obscure estate or fiefdom was mysteriously bequeathed to the party (or to whoever made the wish specifically) right before the previous owner passed away or relinquished all claim to it. Depending on the campaign, just getting to their new property can be an adventure in itself, and once they arrive, you can have this location stuffed to the rafters with any plot hooks you could imagine.

Alternatively, you can grant the wish more perilously - teleporting the party into a vault laden with riches that they must now escape, picking up a few plot hooks along the way - overhearing a sinister plot for example, finding a priceless artifact among the spoils that must be taken along, or helping some entity (intentionally or inadvertently) to escape as they try to leave themselves. Alternatively alternatively, whatever they wished for can indeed appear in front of them - having been taken from someone else, and earning the PCs the enmity of a powerful being, organization, or principality.

Sure, you can nudge your players to think bigger, but you can still get fertile ground for story seeds if they don't - just use your own imagination instead of relying on theirs.

King of Nowhere
2019-06-17, 05:17 PM
Well, we played again.

The PCs couldn't agree on a wish, and we were short on time because someone had to work early, so I just told them that the genie said they could come back once they had made up their minds.

At this rate I doubt the PCs will ever actually make a wish as they will never agree; so in effect I really messed up by giving them a reward that is wholly illusory.
you did not mess up. they did. if they are bickering, selfish and immature, you cannot be held accountable. except maybe for insisting in playing with them

Xuc Xac
2019-06-17, 08:00 PM
I think Talakeal should just kill one of the players as an example to the others, so they stop screwing around and take things seriously.

noob
2019-06-18, 09:40 AM
I think Talakeal should just kill one of the players as an example to the others, so they stop screwing around and take things seriously.

No!
Killing is not the solution.
Instead use that mighty power called walking and use it to walk away from that group until you are on the other side of the world.

Segev
2019-06-18, 11:04 AM
I think Talakeal should just kill one of the players as an example to the others, so they stop screwing around and take things seriously.


No!
Killing is not the solution.
Instead use that mighty power called walking and use it to walk away from that group until you are on the other side of the world.

Besides, the character may get upset if he kills its player.

Friv
2019-06-18, 11:14 AM
I think Talakeal should just kill one of the players as an example to the others, so they stop screwing around and take things seriously.

Given the degree to which some of Tal's players think that he's cheating in favour of the monsters when he uses good tactics or deploys useful powers at all, I think actually just straight-up killing one of them is going to make things substantially worse, not better.

(And yeah, characters != players, etc, etc.)

Psyren
2019-06-18, 11:21 AM
I think Talakeal should just kill one of the players as an example to the others, so they stop screwing around and take things seriously.

You... you meant to say character here, right? :smalleek:

Kyutaru
2019-06-18, 11:27 AM
You... you meant to say character here, right? :smalleek:

No, I do not think so. :smallsigh:

Xuc Xac
2019-06-18, 04:59 PM
You... you meant to say character here, right? :smalleek:

I said what I said!

King of Nowhere
2019-06-18, 07:37 PM
Given the degree to which some of Tal's players think that he's cheating in favour of the monsters when he uses good tactics or deploys useful powers at all, I think actually just straight-up killing one of them is going to make things substantially worse, not better.


yes, that's why he should kill the player. kill the character won't work, as the player would still be around to harrass him.

Segev
2019-06-18, 07:45 PM
Okay, guys? Dial it back a bit. I’m pretty sure advocating murder is not kosher, and we’re moving past the point where it comes off as mere black humor and moving into creepy territory.

zinycor
2019-06-18, 09:19 PM
Okay, guys? Dial it back a bit. I’m pretty sure advocating murder is not kosher, and we’re moving past the point where it comes off as mere black humor and moving into creepy territory.

Take it easy, is only black humor

Friv
2019-06-19, 11:21 AM
I'm going to be honest, the "hur hur someone said player when they meant character let's make fun for the next week" is one of the laziest, easiest faux-humour approaches that people can take, and it alternately bores and annoys me.

It bores me because no one can make a new joke about it. It's like replying to questions about Paranoia by going in-character and taking about security clearances, or telling the cashier at a grocery store that if they can't scan your item, it must be free. Yeah, we get it. You made a joke that literally every person on the internet has made a billion times already. It is not funny.

It annoys me because it inevitably entirely derails whatever conversation was happening into back and forths between people who think they're funny, people who don't get the joke, and people trying in vain to drag the conversation back on topic.

/rant

King of Nowhere
2019-06-19, 12:13 PM
I'm going to be honest, the "hur hur someone said player when they meant character let's make fun for the next week" is one of the laziest, easiest faux-humour approaches that people can take, and it alternately bores and annoys me.

It bores me because no one can make a new joke about it. It's like replying to questions about Paranoia by going in-character and taking about security clearances, or telling the cashier at a grocery store that if they can't scan your item, it must be free. Yeah, we get it. You made a joke that literally every person on the internet has made a billion times already. It is not funny.

It annoys me because it inevitably entirely derails whatever conversation was happening into back and forths between people who think they're funny, people who don't get the joke, and people trying in vain to drag the conversation back on topic.

/rant

first thing, not everyone is so active on the internet. For someone younger, or new to the rpg environment, it may well be the first time thhey see it, and so they are entitled to find it funny.

Second, I myself am in the camp off those that normally would not jump on the joke, because he's seen pleny of times already, and wans't that fun in the first place; but in this case I did, because it contained a side serving of sarcasm. I mean, in a regular thread, about something completely unrelated, where someone says player instead of character? not funny. But in this case, we are dealing with bad players, and I'm sure everyone who has read a few of talekeal stories has wanted to strangle those players a few times. So, in this case, "kill the player" is not just a random joke on terminology, but it is a real (if exaggerated) statement. It means "the problem is the player", or "why are you still putting up with those guys?", or "those players are so hopeless".
The joke then is not in saying a word for another that is often used as synonim but actuaally isn't, but in intentionally using the wrong word to give the sentence a completely different twist, and one that's actually relevant. By seeming to misspeack, you actually say something deeper.
And that's why I'm finding it funny in this instance.

Of course, now that I explained the joke, it doesn't sound so funny anymore.

Quertus
2019-06-19, 01:13 PM
@Talakeal - IMO, you have achieved the best possible outcome. Revel in your players agreeing to do nothing with the wish until they can agree on a wish

KaussH
2019-06-19, 01:39 PM
Hum.. you know giving out a wish requiring the whole party to agree, seems like a nice way to self limit a wish anyway.

Cikomyr
2019-06-19, 01:56 PM
first thing, not everyone is so active on the internet. For someone younger, or new to the rpg environment, it may well be the first time thhey see it, and so they are entitled to find it funny.

Second, I myself am in the camp off those that normally would not jump on the joke, because he's seen pleny of times already, and wans't that fun in the first place; but in this case I did, because it contained a side serving of sarcasm. I mean, in a regular thread, about something completely unrelated, where someone says player instead of character? not funny. But in this case, we are dealing with bad players, and I'm sure everyone who has read a few of talekeal stories has wanted to strangle those players a few times. So, in this case, "kill the player" is not just a random joke on terminology, but it is a real (if exaggerated) statement. It means "the problem is the player", or "why are you still putting up with those guys?", or "those players are so hopeless".
The joke then is not in saying a word for another that is often used as synonim but actuaally isn't, but in intentionally using the wrong word to give the sentence a completely different twist, and one that's actually relevant. By seeming to misspeack, you actually say something deeper.
And that's why I'm finding it funny in this instance.

Of course, now that I explained the joke, it doesn't sound so funny anymore.

Defender of the Basics meet April' s Fool

halfeye
2019-06-19, 05:17 PM
Defender of the Basics meet April' s Fool

Any relation to Cathy's Clown?

jintoya
2019-06-23, 12:42 PM
Anyone know when Tal holds sessions? I'd like to know when to check for updates on how the wish... Or no wish is being handled... Or not handled.

I've run into players like this (Bob) before, I never tolerated it, after I turn it into a joke, they always either laugh along with the rest of us, or left.

Squire Doodad
2019-06-23, 10:10 PM
The problem isnt that they are wishing too big, but too small. I want them to make a wish, to do something grand and shake things up a little.

People, when given single-use ultimate power, tend to want to do something either very small so as to not risk enraging their patron, something with long-term benefits that are generalized (like an instant level-up for everyone or a dragon's hoard of gold), or they will do something that ruins the setting, metaphorically or literally. The "I wish for infinite wishes" kind of person, and the "I want [very bad thing that causes destruction of everything nearby] to happen to the big bad!" (the party, their hometown(s), loved ones or headquarters may or may not be in range when they agree on this). Those tend to screw things over.

The solution to wanting people to do things that are interesting and unique, but are also not gamebreaking, is to tell the players themselves that the wish is, in fact, anything they want. They ask for anything short of becoming demigods. They can ask for something really interesting! There are no major repercussions unless they do something that kills everyone, and the wish-bearing entity will not be offended. Letting your players know this is usually important, because otherwise you tend to have the "small pouch of money, please don't kill me" kind of wishing mindset.

Or you could have the entity say its going to do a default wish if the players do not decide, one which is okay but not nearly what they would want. Like "you all get a unicorn, back to the quest!".

Talakeal
2019-06-24, 09:58 AM
Anyone know when Tal holds sessions? I'd like to know when to check for updates on how the wish... Or no wish is being handled... Or not handled.

I've run into players like this (Bob) before, I never tolerated it, after I turn it into a joke, they always either laugh along with the rest of us, or left.

Every other Saturday.

I wouldn't hold your breath though, I doubt this wish is ever getting made.

Lord of Shadows
2019-06-24, 10:19 AM
Every other Saturday.

I wouldn't hold your breath though, I doubt this wish is ever getting made.

Ohh.. I'm pretty sure one of the players will one day eventually forget and, in response to something (in game, out of game, whatever) will utter, "I WISH..." If the player catches themselves and tries not to finish it, the DM/GM must make it so.

It could be for anything... something in-game, or not, like a cold drink, or a snack...if it is something the DM/GM can't grant, like a new job, it should be applied to that player's character in the most appropriate way. It should be effective when the game is in session, not before or after, or during a smoke break, unless the DM decides so. And, if the players complain, just explain that they had plenty of time to decide on something useful and wasted it, and this is the result. Something like this could nudge "Bob" out the door.
.

zinycor
2019-06-24, 03:53 PM
Btw Talakeal, this whole thing would have been avoided if you gave your player a number of choices to choose their wish to be, that way you get something that is fun, and they get to decide on a wish.

Talakeal
2019-06-24, 05:22 PM
Btw Talakeal, this whole thing would have been avoided if you gave your player a number of choices to choose their wish to be, that way you get something that is fun, and they get to decide on a wish.

I doubt it. They already came up with a list of great choices on their own, they are simply unable to agree on which to go with.

Squire Doodad
2019-06-24, 07:01 PM
I doubt it. They already came up with a list of great choices on their own, they are simply unable to agree on which to go with.

Tell them to narrow it down to 8 choices, so they can compare one against the other tournament style.
The minute they do so, roll a d8 and pick the corresponding wish.

Or, to put it even more simply:
Get the list, take off the ones that will screw over your plans in the campaign, roll some dice.

zinycor
2019-06-24, 11:00 PM
I doubt it. They already came up with a list of great choices on their own, they are simply unable to agree on which to go with.

A list is way too much for your players, When I say give them a choice I mean of like... 4 things at most.


Tell them to narrow it down to 8 choices, so they can compare one against the other tournament style.
The minute they do so, roll a d8 and pick the corresponding wish.

Or, to put it even more simply:
Get the list, take off the ones that will screw over your plans in the campaign, roll some dice.

^ This.

MrSandman
2019-06-25, 01:14 AM
A list is way too much for your players, When I say give them a choice I mean of like... 4 things at most.

The ability to agree on something isn't necessarily (or even often) tied to the amount of options.

The Glyphstone
2019-06-25, 10:35 AM
At which point they will complain and say they actually wanted one of the options left off the list. Then be stuck deciding which unavailable option they want while still being upset that it's not "permitted" because of 'railroading'.

zinycor
2019-06-25, 11:02 AM
At which point they will complain and say they actually wanted one of the options left off the list. Then be stuck deciding which unavailable option they want while still being upset that it's not "permitted" because of 'railroading'.

I disagree, there's no reason for them to complain unless you somehow make it known to them that you are restricting the options. Just have the genie present 3 options and if they want something outside of that have the genie explain that something outside those options is outside his expertise.

Segev
2019-06-25, 11:05 AM
Your options are to just let it go, and leave them to their own devices, or to come up with an alternate reward. I suggest the former; it sounds like they're the ones squandering things.

The Glyphstone
2019-06-25, 01:15 PM
I disagree, there's no reason for them to complain unless you somehow make it known to them that you are restricting the options. Just have the genie present 3 options and if they want something outside of that have the genie explain that something outside those options is outside his expertise.

I agree there is no reason for them to complain. But I am quite certain they will complain anyways, based on how the rest of this thread has gone, and all the previous threads along similar lines.

Squire Doodad
2019-06-27, 07:42 PM
I disagree, there's no reason for them to complain unless you somehow make it known to them that you are restricting the options. Just have the genie present 3 options and if they want something outside of that have the genie explain that something outside those options is outside his expertise.

"I can grant you either a blade of mythical power, wealth beyond imagining, or a tome of sacred knowledge"
"Actually if you could just pop us back to town and give us a nice lunch I'd appreciate that"
"I'm sorry, that is outside my expertise."

Galithar
2019-06-27, 08:06 PM
"I can grant you either a blade of mythical power, wealth beyond imagining, or a tome of sacred knowledge"
"Actually if you could just pop us back to town and give us a nice lunch I'd appreciate that"
"I'm sorry, that is outside my expertise."

You don't ask the Master Smith for a cab ride or a Turkey Club do you?? 😂

zinycor
2019-06-27, 08:29 PM
"I can grant you either a blade of mythical power, wealth beyond imagining, or a tome of sacred knowledge"
"Actually if you could just pop us back to town and give us a nice lunch I'd appreciate that"
"I'm sorry, that is outside my expertise."


"How come that is beyond your powers?"
"I can only summon things which aren't alive, alive things are much different and require other sort of magic that I have not studied, other genies have those capabilities, but can't summon the magical objects that I am offering, neither can they summon vast amounts of material"

Or any other explanation that the GM Comes up with.

Squire Doodad
2019-06-27, 10:17 PM
"How come that is beyond your powers?"
"I can only summon things which aren't alive, alive things are much different and reuire other sort of magic that I have not studied, other genies have those capabilities, but can't summon the magical objects that I am offering, neither can they summon vast amounts of material"

Or any other explanation that the GM Comes up with.
Okay, that's actually quite well thought out.

"You can contact other genies though, right?"
"Well...um, yes?"
"Can you do us a favor and ask one of the other genies who can give us lunch to come and help us out?"

NichG
2019-06-27, 10:24 PM
"I'm not actually a Noble Genie, so when I grant wishes I have to do it the old fashioned way rather than by using Wish. But I just happen to have those three things lying around from my previous adventures. I could planeshift you to the Ethereal though, if you'd like. "

Galithar
2019-06-27, 10:25 PM
Okay, that's actually quite well thought out.

"You can contact other genies though, right?"
"Well...um, yes?"
"Can you do us a favor and ask one of the other genies who can give us lunch to come and help us out?"

"Why yes, but seeing as how they don't owe you anything I can't promise they'll help. Are you sure you want to waste this opportunity to MAYBE get a free ride and a yummy meal?"

If they say yes.
Have the Genie cast sending (multiply castings at needed to comply with the spell :P )and say "Bobby, I got these fools here that would really like to ask you for a jump back home and some good food...
You're busy? Alright I'll tell them...
Yupp... No food or teleport available. Toodles."
Cast plane shift and leave.

zinycor
2019-06-27, 10:48 PM
Okay, that's actually quite well thought out.

"You can contact other genies though, right?"
"Well...um, yes?"
"Can you do us a favor and ask one of the other genies who can give us lunch to come and help us out?"


"Why yes, but seeing as how they don't owe you anything I can't promise they'll help. Are you sure you want to waste this opportunity to MAYBE get a free ride and a yummy meal?"

If they say yes.
Have the Genie cast sending (multiply castings at needed to comply with the spell :P )and say "Bobby, I got these fools here that would really like to ask you for a jump back home and some good food...
You're busy? Alright I'll tell them...
Yupp... No food or teleport available. Toodles."
Cast plane shift and leave.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

EDIT: Even though it would be perfectly reasonable for the second genie to not want to grant the wish, if he did want to, that would also be a perfectly reasonable, if anything only because the players came with the whole idea of summoning a different genie.

Kyutaru
2019-06-28, 01:31 AM
Why are all these NPCs so friendly? Is it because they're being roleplayed by nerds?

How I see the conversation happening:

"I will grant you one of these three wishes! Choose now mortal!"
"Actually we were hoping for a lift back home."
"IMPOTENT FLESH CREATURE! YOU DARE REFUSE ME?! I COMMAND THE COSMOS!!!"
"That's all well and good but maybe--"
*djinn turns the speaker into a toad*
"Wait that wasn't our wish..."
"THAT WAS FREE! What do I care, I'm going home, to the Nine Hells with all of you."
"Well that's not very ni-"
"Literally."
*casts plane shift to Baator*

Moral of the story: if you stand before a god or any being sufficiently more powerful than you such that they may as well be a god as far as your fate is concerned, try to the treat the situation as though you're buying black market items from the shadiest looking thug on the planet in his villa surrounded by sixteen honchos with machine guns. Delicately.

Talakeal
2019-06-30, 03:10 PM
Another week, and still nothing to report.

MrSandman
2019-06-30, 03:28 PM
Another week, and still nothing to report.

Hope it lasts!

Talakeal
2019-06-30, 03:37 PM
Hope it lasts!

Oh, no, there was still plenty of drama (see my other thread), they are just still unable to agree to a wish.

MrSandman
2019-06-30, 03:47 PM
Oh, no, there was still plenty of drama (see my other thread), they are just still unable to agree to a wish.

Yup, seen that. I feel you, bud.

King of Nowhere
2019-07-01, 07:52 PM
Oh, no, there was still plenty of drama (see my other thread), they are just still unable to agree to a wish.

so, did they spend three sessions just arguing about the wish? or did they also do something else, interspersed by discussing about the wish?

You may suggest them to create a whatsapp group and discuss the wish there, to avoid wasting valubale table time

zinycor
2019-07-01, 07:56 PM
so, did they spend three sessions just arguing about the wish? or did they also do something else, interspersed by discussing about the wish?

You may suggest them to create a whatsapp group and discuss the wish there, to avoid wasting valubale table time

I don't think that's the problem here.

Talakeal
2019-07-02, 09:08 AM
so, did they spend three sessions just arguing about the wish? or did they also do something else, interspersed by discussing about the wish?

You may suggest them to create a whatsapp group and discuss the wish there, to avoid wasting valubale table time

Nah, they are pretty much deadlocked and have given up on even trying to discuss it. Its more or less just dead and gone at this point.

We already have a FB group for such discussion.

Cikomyr
2019-07-02, 10:03 AM
Nah, they are pretty much deadlocked and have given up on even trying to discuss it. Its more or less just dead and gone at this point.

We already have a FB group for such discussion.

"the genie gives up and revoke your wish. I hope you guys are happy"

Talakeal
2019-07-02, 10:53 AM
"the genie gives up and revoke your wish. I hope you guys are happy"

IC the genie is bound on the mortal plane until it grants a wish, any wish, although I suppose it would be reasonable for it to go out and find a new master because it got bored of waiting.

OOC I am not sure if I want to "be the bad guy" in this situation because I know damn well the players will unite against me and agree that I screwed them if I do something like this.

Cikomyr
2019-07-02, 02:22 PM
IC the genie is bound on the mortal plane until it grants a wish, any wish, although I suppose it would be reasonable for it to go out and find a new master because it got bored of waiting.

OOC I am not sure if I want to "be the bad guy" in this situation because I know damn well the players will unite against me and agree that I screwed them if I do something like this.

Just give them a final deadline, and they lose the Wish if they don't proceed before then. Allow for majority rule and outlaw player veto, so Bob can't be the *******

Talakeal
2019-07-02, 02:43 PM
Just give them a final deadline, and they lose the Wish if they don't proceed before then. Allow for majority rule and outlaw player veto, so Bob can't be the *******

And if its a four way tie?

Cikomyr
2019-07-02, 02:44 PM
And if its a four way tie?

The Genie goes away :-P

Too bad!

Galithar
2019-07-02, 04:20 PM
And if its a four way tie?

Give them an additional 60 seconds to agree. Failure to agree at that point and you roll a d4 twice. The first identifies which party member (if relevant) the wish will affect. The second chooses the wish that takes effect. This way they have to decide or have a good chance of having a useless wish. (Doesn't do much for Bob to get the wish about having their soul saved from a demon/devil or whatever... I'm having trouble remembering player details at the moment :P )

Edit: My actual advice is to just ignore it until they agree and then poof genie shows up and grants it. You don't want to add dysfunction to your group. They have enough trouble getting along as is it seems lol

tyckspoon
2019-07-02, 07:08 PM
OOC I am not sure if I want to "be the bad guy" in this situation because I know damn well the players will unite against me and agree that I screwed them if I do something like this.

At least they'd be agreeing on something.

zinycor
2019-07-02, 08:26 PM
IC the genie is bound on the mortal plane until it grants a wish, any wish, although I suppose it would be reasonable for it to go out and find a new master because it got bored of waiting.

OOC I am not sure if I want to "be the bad guy" in this situation because I know damn well the players will unite against me and agree that I screwed them if I do something like this.

Say to them as the genie.

"Look, I see you are having problems picking a wish, May I suggest [Insert wish] or [Insert wish]. I understand if you don't want any of those, but sadly, my time also has value and I will look for someone else who can decide on a wish if you don't dicede in the next hour."

Then give them an actual hour and if they do not agree, have the genie leave.

Mordaedil
2019-07-03, 03:57 AM
I'd say just leave the wish as a float for if they get into a seriously bad situation. Just let them decide to use it when they feel like it and don't stress about it being used right here and right now.

King of Nowhere
2019-07-03, 06:54 AM
At least they'd be agreeing on something.

the winner!

Talakeal
2019-07-13, 10:20 PM
Well, they made a wish.

I had the genie tell them that she wasn't going to hang around any longer and if they didn't make the wish it would find someone else.


They voted, and agreed on wishing for power for the whole group. I think they wanted XP, but when I asked how they are going to phrase the wish in character and they settled on "I wish the party was stronger."


So, I gave the entire party a +1 bonus to their strength scores. Not exactly what anyone wanted, but it works well enough and nobody was actively upset by it.

Lord of Shadows
2019-07-13, 10:27 PM
So, I gave the entire party a +1 bonus to their strength scores. Not exactly what anyone wanted, but it works well enough and nobody was actively upset by it.

There... now that wasn't so hard, was it?
On to the next challenge!

jintoya
2019-07-14, 01:05 PM
How anticlimactic... But, problem solved

zinycor
2019-07-14, 05:01 PM
Good job, good to hear your party agreed on a wish in the end.