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MaxMahem
2007-10-06, 06:01 PM
I was daydreaming the other night, when suddenly a rather odd but appropriate idea came upon me, why aren't dragoons more often cast in the role of bankers in fantasy universes? Typically it is dwarves with their hoards of goal and defense minded facilities, or gnomes with their bookishness and head for figures to keep the balance sheets. However I think dragons could work very well as Banking figures as well.

#1. Dragons traditionally keep large "hoards" of Gold, Jewels, and other valuable treasures. The exact reasons for this is often unclear but it is apparently something dragons are by instinct driven to do. A large supply of Gold or other tradable commodity is the basics of a bank.

#2. Dragons hoards of treasures are always well protected. Both by the dragons (who are generally the most powerful and fearsome creatures in fantasy universes) and by a collections of traps and other defenses. Indeed one of Dragons favored minions, Kobolds, are renowned for there fiendish and clever trapmaking skills. Again this is also a requirement for a bank which would want its reserves to be well protected.

#3. Numbers one and two combine to allow a dragon to perform all the services of a bank if it wanted. A dragon has a large hoard or reserve which it could easily lend out if it wanted. And the secure nature of a dragons hoard means that potential investors could feel secure in depositing their treasure with the dragon. The strength and power of a dragon is an excellent reputation to fall back upon. I mean who would doubt the validity of a Check/Promissory note backed by a dragon? And who would be foolish enough to try and welsh on a debt collectible by a dragon?

#4. Most dragons are intelligent enough to come up with and execute such a scheme. Dragons generally are considerably more intelligent than gnomes or dwarves who are usually burdened with these roles, and better equipped to execute them as well. The dragons favorite minions (kobolds) while deficient in other areas are not lacking in cleverness as well.

#5. Some may argue that giving away its treasure goes against the mentality of a dragon and it is something they are loath to do. While this is certainly true, it should be remembered that Banks are fundamentally profitable (indeed VERY profitable) institutions for the organizations that run them. A dragon may frown slightly whenever someone comes and makes a withdrawal from money in his "vault." This will be more than compensated by the fact that he is making a tidy income off of it. Indeed while inflation is generally ignored in fantasy universes, one would expect the value of a dragons hoard to decrease with time (assuming he didn't supplement it) if he wasn't actively investing it in something and generating a return. In addition, in a well run bank the actual amount of currency that flows through it can be surprisingly small.

#6. A bank lets a dragon enjoy both parts of hoard craving nature. A dragons intellectual side will be satisfied by the ever increasing sums he owns on a balance book. While his beastly nature will be pleased by his depositors deposits which he can nest on as if they were his own.

---

What do you guys think? Next time your players visit a bank in one of your universes, maybe it should be the Bank of Trogdor eh?

kpenguin
2007-10-06, 06:05 PM
Generally, powerful dragons consider themselves beyond such petty mortal matters like banking. The idea does have merit, though.

"Welcome to First Draconic. How may I help you?"

Eighth_Seraph
2007-10-06, 06:10 PM
I could definitely see copper dragons doing this sort of thing with the added benefit of having someone to talk to as he's doing the transaction. The question is: is it worth it to securely deposit your gold pieces in exchange for a full conversation with a copper dragon, where 'full' is being defined by said dragon?

'tis a near thing, all told.

ideasmith
2007-10-06, 06:15 PM
Banking does not just require having lots of treasure and protecting it. It also requires loaning/allowing withrawals.

And dragons just hate giving treasure up.

Hawriel
2007-10-06, 06:18 PM
Hmm things you dont want to hear from your dragon banker.

Your loan had been...denied

Im sorry but we will be forclosing on your castle.

Sence you have been delinquent on your lone for the past 3 months we are going to have to take your collateral, will you be bringing in your ansestral armor or do we have to send in the repodrake?

Im sorry farmer Bob but we really want to have a rail road built through your farm. I really dont think your next harvest will be enough to pay for this year.

DraPrime
2007-10-06, 06:22 PM
This would never work. Dragons wouldn't want to be bothered with something like this. And who ever heard of a dragon giving up gold? I'm pretty sure they'll lose lots of customers because they eat livestock, which doesn't make people happy.

PirateMonk
2007-10-06, 06:27 PM
This would never work. Dragons wouldn't want to be bothered with something like this.

Depends on how aggressive the dragon in question is. But in general, yes.


And who ever heard of a dragon giving up gold?

As the OP noted, this is mitigated by the fact that they're profiting off it.


I'm pretty sure they'll lose lots of customers because they eat livestock, which doesn't make people happy.

Dragon bankers can afford to buy the livestock.

Belteshazzar
2007-10-06, 06:29 PM
That is just dark. I mean at least before they simply sat on their ill gotten gains but now they can actually put that 25 Int and Wis to use and start controlling the economy. How weird would it be to realize that the kind old king who sent you to kill the fearsome dragon is actually doing so because his extravagant spending has put him in the red and the dragon simply wants his cash back. That and his daughter makes for nice, legal collateral.

Xuincherguixe
2007-10-06, 06:38 PM
Coming from a Shadowrun background where corporate dragons are fairly common this isn't that foreign an idea.

If a Dragon got over the whole "giving up" of treasure, it could have the potential to get a lot of money. It's entirely possible that it could even start hiring people. And doing some serious manipulation. For instance, it could hire some raiders to burn crops, causing food prices to sky rocket. So now the peasants need to take out a loan to buy food. And when they can't pay, the Dragon can take the land.

Hectonkhyres
2007-10-06, 06:44 PM
I can't see a problem with this. The dragon would essentially be president and controlling stockholder of the enterprise. He would have the final say in everything... but it would be rare that he would have to take any part in the day to day running of the company. Kobolds would do the paperwork. Kobolds would do most of the guarding. Kobolds would be the ones to deal with clients... at least at the central office. The dragon can sit there in a luxury-lined citadel atop his mountain, eating finely roasted livestock all day.

He is just the man behind the curtain. A massive, breath-weapony man behind the curtain with a lifespan that dwarfs that of whole civilizations. His purpose is that of the veiled thread. The business will run smoothly... or else.

Some dragons would be into this. As was mentioned, copper dragons are practically information starved. Business might be positively addictive. And more than a few other types would find their own reasons to run a banking system.

And they don't have to give up gold. Think Scrooge McDuck's moneybin. Filled with cash that most of the time just sits there. The gold stays, but the rights to the gold gets transfered. Its dragon travelers checks. The modern banking system with a twist.

PirateMonk
2007-10-06, 06:55 PM
And there's little to stop the more aggressive ones from carving out an empire as far as the monetary system extends, as long as they have the patience.

Yithian
2007-10-06, 06:58 PM
I must say, this is a clever idea. Not only does it give dragons an interesting purpose, it also gives them a great deal of power beyond their physical stats, as they can now (partially) control the economy, to some extent. This would make them very deadly opponents.

I am definitely using this in my next game.

Thanks,

Yithian

daggaz
2007-10-06, 07:03 PM
It's a cool idea, but I can only see it working for coppers as well. And this has the added side effect of making that particular plot advice amusing at best. Any dastardly "evil-corporate-power-monger" ideas are going to be dashed by the simple fact that any evil dragon worth his beans will just take the livestock/land/gold/etc.. Its much simpler and the profit margins are higher, plus it suits their evilness much better.

Hmm... actually on second thought, this idea would work especially well with green dragons as well. They like to take humanoid form and trick people, they like to intimidate and use mind control spells, and they are Lawful Evil so it suits the bill just perfectly.

Cool idea, think it just got yoinked.

Idiotbox90
2007-10-06, 07:25 PM
You finally gave me a reason for dragons to exist in my homebrew world. Thank you.

PirateMonk
2007-10-06, 07:29 PM
It's a cool idea, but I can only see it working for coppers as well. And this has the added side effect of making that particular plot advice amusing at best. Any dastardly "evil-corporate-power-monger" ideas are going to be dashed by the simple fact that any evil dragon worth his beans will just take the livestock/land/gold/etc.. Its much simpler and the profit margins are higher, plus it suits their evilness much better.

Yes, but sheer force doesn't have the same capacity for empire-building and requires to dragon to do more no matter what their goal. Some dragons may not care about that, however.

bosssmiley
2007-10-06, 07:46 PM
Not a new idea, but still a thought-provoking one.

Given their mythic origins I'd be inclined not to do this in my own games.
Western dragons are - traditionally - supposed to be personifications of avarice. They are rapacious and toxic greed given flesh; a flying, fire-breathing parable on the destructive effects of untrammelled possessiveness. From "Beowulf" and "The Nibelung Saga" onwards dragons derived gratification not from the gainful use of their hoards, but simply from the selfish dog-in-a-manger pleasure of having them. Dragons are the ultimate jackdaw misers; obsessively counting and recounting their hoards with no awareness that wealth unused is not truly wealth at all.

That said, even the traditional view makes for great 'protection racket' plots involving our iconic monster. The MM gives the example of Blue Dragons establishing strangleholds on oases, Black Dragons using enslaved swamp-dwellers as toll-collectors and Red Dragons regarding everything they see as theirs by right of conquest. Just don't ever expect to ever be able to tap a dragon for investment seed money; in their - far older and wiser than your - minds that's simply not what money is for. They're Ebenezer Scrooge, not Shylock.

Emperor Tippy
2007-10-06, 07:49 PM
I use dragons as bankers and business man in all my home brewed worlds. My players have killed dragons before and found only a few hundred gold in his lair because it was all invested in various things.

I also use Elans as business men. Nothing like the guy who can live forever and doesn't need to eat.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-06, 07:55 PM
I wouldn't make it a common practice, but I like the idea. To have a king take a loan from a dragon and never pay it back sounds like a fun plot hook.

DraPrime
2007-10-06, 07:58 PM
Dragon bankers can afford to buy the livestock.

But where's the fun in that? No hunting? If I was a dragon I think I'd enjoy hunting instead of sitting in my lair all day and munching on animals without any effort.

Dervag
2007-10-06, 08:09 PM
And they don't have to give up gold. Think Scrooge McDuck's moneybin. Filled with cash that most of the time just sits there. The gold stays, but the rights to the gold gets transfered. Its dragon travelers checks. The modern banking system with a twist.Even then, they still have to give up gold every time someone cashes a traveler's check. They may be giving it up to another dragon, or in the expectation that they'll get gold back in a similar transaction a few days from now. But the basic principle remains that a banker who is uncomfortable with the notion of letting people make a withdrawal isn't going to do very well.

Banks, especially banks in the pre-industrial era, stood or fell on how well they interfaced with their customers and on their ability to convince people that the bank was reliable. A dragon isn't going to interface well with customers, nor is a kobold (filthy little buggers, aren't they?). Nor is a dragon going to have much luck convincing people that it will give up treasure when they ask for it.


But where's the fun in that? No hunting? If I was a dragon I think I'd enjoy hunting instead of sitting in my lair all day and munching on animals without any effort.Well, then you'd be an active dragon. Dragons are reptiles; reptiles are quite capable of being lazy. So there's no reason why there shouldn't be dragons who are content to let their banking enterprise bring in the money and the beef cattle while they lounge around watching the crystal ball all day.

BRC
2007-10-06, 08:13 PM
I could Imagine a dragon doing this

or maybe a very lawful dragon as an insurance agent.

DraPrime
2007-10-06, 08:13 PM
Well, then you'd be an active dragon. Dragons are reptiles; reptiles are quite capable of being lazy. So there's no reason why there shouldn't be dragons who are content to let their banking enterprise bring in the money and the beef cattle while they lounge around watching the crystal ball all day.

According to Draconimicon, dragons aren't reptiles. They're big magical creatures of awesome power. I'm pretty sure they're active.

PirateMonk
2007-10-06, 08:23 PM
But where's the fun in that? No hunting? If I was a dragon I think I'd enjoy hunting instead of sitting in my lair all day and munching on animals without any effort.

Who says they bring it to their lair rather than leaving it where it is?

TheLogman
2007-10-06, 09:01 PM
Coppers, Bronzes, and Brasses would make good tellers, with the Golds and Silvers being guards. Also, for a small fee, you can have a Gold dragon add those Luckstones he makes to your personal horde.

MaxMahem
2007-10-06, 09:01 PM
Thanks for all the replies. Some responses.


Generally, powerful dragons consider themselves beyond such petty mortal matters like banking.
I certainly could see dragons feeling like this. Imagine some clever/stupid gnome/kobold proposing the idea to a dragon. Faintly amused by the concept he decides to try it out. After all the investment necessary to set up a bank for a small village/hamlet would be chump-change to an adult dragon. However, once the a dragon became acquainted with the amount of money/rate of return he could potentially make through these institutions he would probably get over this. Dragons may be disinterested in mortal schemes, but more so than that they are very greedy. And his avarice might override his haughtiness.


Dragon's hate giving up treasure
Very true. But like I said in my first post, this is mitigated by the fact that the Dragon would be making money off of it. In fact he hasn't "given up" any money at all, he's merely invested it in something else. I very much doubt that a dragon (certainly not an evil one) would be giving out unsecured loans. Another point in favor for the dragon is that he will also be in control of large portions of other people wealth that is deposited with him. This will surely appeal to his greedy nature.


Given their mythic origins I'd be inclined not to do this in my own games.
Western dragons are - traditionally - supposed to be personifications of avarice. They are rapacious and toxic greed given flesh; a flying, fire-breathing parable on the destructive effects of untrammelled possessiveness. From "Beowulf" and "The Nibelung Saga" onwards dragons derived gratification not from the gainful use of their hoards, but simply from the selfish dog-in-a-manger pleasure of having them. Dragons are the ultimate jackdaw misers; obsessively counting and recounting their hoards with no awareness that wealth unused is not truly wealth at all.
True enough. However Banks especially in 1920s era literature are ALSO seen as the personification of greed and being miserly, so the two could go well together. I think there is quite a lot of overlap between the personification of the two...


Banks, especially banks in the pre-industrial era, stood or fell on how well they interfaced with their customers and on their ability to convince people that the bank was reliable. A dragon isn't going to interface well with customers, nor is a kobold (filthy little buggers, aren't they?). Nor is a dragon going to have much luck convincing people that it will give up treasure when they ask for it.
On the contrary, I think this is something Dragon Banks would excel at. People may be intimidate by a Dragon running a bank, but they will likely have a great deal of "faith" in the bank. They will know there money is in there and that it is secure. And that any fool that would try and rob the dragon/bank (and thus them as well) would get what they deserve. Withdrawls might be a problem, but I believe the Dragon would be able to get over it, restfully maybe.

PirateMonk
2007-10-06, 09:10 PM
I very much doubt that a dragon (certainly not an evil one) would be giving out unsecured loans.

And if they do, it will be unofficially secured with the recipient's life. :smallwink:

Leadfeathermcc
2007-10-06, 09:19 PM
I'm pretty sure they'll lose lots of customers because they eat livestock, which doesn't make people happy.

I eat livestock, I had a nice burger tonight. My clients don't seem to mind.

de-trick
2007-10-06, 09:36 PM
nice idea, going to use idea if ok with you

BardicDuelist
2007-10-06, 09:38 PM
Actually, this reminds me of the story that the rich casino guy tells in Rush Hour 2.

The VP
2007-10-06, 10:47 PM
One of the parties in a game I was in used a dragon as their 'personal' banker. The dragon didn't provide the service to anyone but the party, but allowed us to store our ill begotten goods with him. In return, we acted as fences for him, selling all the weapons and armour and other non-money treasures for him, since they were less comfortable to lay on then gold.

NecroRebel
2007-10-06, 11:06 PM
Several months back, I remember reading a thread on these forums about building an economy in a world with D&D-style magic... Dragon bankers came up as one of the things that would likely appear (though, perhaps predictably, a wizardly banking establishment totally outdid them IIRC). Personally, I don't think that a dragon bank would work too well, for most of the same reasons listed by others (traditionally greedy and materialist personifications, mainly, even for the good dragons).

Unless you completely change how dragons typically act, the idea of giving up gold, even to bring in more gold, would be so incredibly alien to a dragon that they'd think you insane just for suggesting it. Consider how the average person of European descent would react if you told them that you thought that death wasn't a bad thing; that's probably roughly how a dragon would feel about just giving away their horde. Regardless of how mind-bogglingly intelligent and perceptive your average dragon is (remember, kids, that 25 intelligence means that they're roughly as smart as Albert Einstein and Stephan Hawking combined), they still would simply not be able to truly comprehend the concept.

Human Paragon 3
2007-10-06, 11:08 PM
Friggin awesome! And if you default on a loan- your TOAST.

Machete
2007-10-06, 11:35 PM
Interesting thoughts.

I'd think an actual dragon would be beyond such petty things as banking, although having a place to stash its stash while guarding the money of a bak and getting to lay on it all and roll around in it and all of those other crazy things they probably do with treasure when no one is looking may sound fun for a younger dragon to start into or an older dragon who has done it for years and enjoys the extra ecurity of having a small force backing the legitimacy of his or her wealth..

Hecore
2007-10-07, 12:23 AM
But where's the fun in that? No hunting? If I was a dragon I think I'd enjoy hunting instead of sitting in my lair all day and munching on animals without any effort.

Who says a dragon can't afford to have his own private hunting lodge where they can hunt at their own leisure? If they didn't want to go to that much trouble they could always pay farmer Bob a piddling amount to be able to chase down his livestock. Hell, evil dragons might have a farmer who's so much in debt they could forclose him at any time, and they would feel free to ravage the farm anytime they want without the farmer speaking up

Dervag
2007-10-07, 01:07 AM
According to Draconimicon, dragons aren't reptiles. They're big magical creatures of awesome power. I'm pretty sure they're active.You do realize that "reptile" and "big magical creature of awesome power" are not mutually exclusive, right?

What I'm saying is that if we have any real-life guideline as to how they might conceivably behave, it's the reptiles. I'm not saying they're just dinosaurs with wings and breath weapons.

Who says that all big magical creatures of awesome power are active for the sake of being active?


On the contrary, I think this is something Dragon Banks would excel at. People may be intimidate by a Dragon running a bank, but they will likely have a great deal of "faith" in the bank. They will know there money is in there and that it is secure. And that any fool that would try and rob the dragon/bank (and thus them as well) would get what they deserve. Withdrawls might be a problem, but I believe the Dragon would be able to get over it, restfully maybe.I was focused on the withdrawal issue.

The security of a bank is less important than the trustworthiness of a bank. This is why banks used to invest in lots of gilded trimmings and marble floors and huge, heavy vault doors. They were showing that they had a large investment in 'physical plant'. This proved that they had a serious investment in their location, so that they weren't going to take the money and run.

Security matters, of course, but a the temptation of the banker to defraud his client is every bit as strong than the temptation of a thief to rob the banker.

And who can trust a dragon to let them make a withdrawal? How would such a bank get started?


One of the parties in a game I was in used a dragon as their 'personal' banker. The dragon didn't provide the service to anyone but the party, but allowed us to store our ill begotten goods with him. In return, we acted as fences for him, selling all the weapons and armour and other non-money treasures for him, since they were less comfortable to lay on then gold.Now, that kind of personal relationship makes sense, assuming dragons are capable of forming personal ties with mortals, which they are in D&D.

The dragon can rationalize it as "I watch their/our hoard, while they improve my hoard." This is a simple relationship, and it is very much a one-on-one deal. Moreover, it preserves the concept of "your hoard/my hoard" where a more general banking system (with loans, interest, and investment) does not.


Unless you completely change how dragons typically act, the idea of giving up gold, even to bring in more gold, would be so incredibly alien to a dragon that they'd think you insane just for suggesting it. Consider how the average person of European descent would react if you told them that you thought that death wasn't a bad thing; that's probably roughly how a dragon would feel about just giving away their horde. Regardless of how mind-bogglingly intelligent and perceptive your average dragon is (remember, kids, that 25 intelligence means that they're roughly as smart as Albert Einstein and Stephan Hawking combined), they still would simply not be able to truly comprehend the concept.Intelligence and ability to embrace an alien concept aren't the same thing, so I agree with you. A dragon would likely be enraged by the suggestion that they should give a piece of their hoard to someone else in exchange for interest payments, even if their long perspective would allow them to calculate that this would greatly increase the size of their hoard in the long run.


Who says a dragon can't afford to have his own private hunting lodge where they can hunt at their own leisure? If they didn't want to go to that much trouble they could always pay farmer Bob a piddling amount to be able to chase down his livestock. Hell, evil dragons might have a farmer who's so much in debt they could forclose him at any time, and they would feel free to ravage the farm anytime they want without the farmer speaking upI like those ideas.

appending_doom
2007-10-07, 08:06 AM
I'm not entirely certain why a creature with a natural lifespan of over 1,000 years would consider a 10-year (for example) investment "the long run".

I could imagine a dragon bank started with the hoard as collateral; the dragon allows people to store money (giving interest), but uses those people's money as the loans. By keeping separate the loan-money (not-my hoard) and the collateral (my hoard), a dragon would not, in truth, be ever diminishing his hoard.

Thus, the dragon's hoard would only ever be at risk of diminishing, which roving bands of adventurers are prone to doing anyway. This would be a pretty good set-up for typically evil dragons, as making oneself an integral part of the local infrastructure cuts down on the careless draco-cide found so often in a dragon's life.

DracoDei
2007-10-07, 12:58 PM
I started this post last night, and found the tab still open on my browser this morning and finished it up (without checking for what activity the thread had seen in the mean time). Please excuse me where I repeat what other people have said.

I have had this sort of idea in my head for a long while actually. A few things I THINK are missing.

One is that y'all may be underestimating the effect of such high wisdom scores in tipping the balance in terms of long term gain over short term satisfaction when you say that they would be loath to part with any part of their treasure.

In that same vein I would say that GOOD dragons at least would be prone to making loans (and with their life-span they could perhaps be LONG TERM loans) to worthy causes... what the INTEREST RATES would be would be a balance between altruism and greed that would be up to the individual GM to figure out. Leveraging their wealth to both enrich themselves and help make the world a better place seems very plausible. Come to that (and as I have said in the past), the role of loan shark fits a LE dragon very well in my estimation.

Speaking of which the "collatoral is your life" part only fits Evil dragons. Lawful Good dragons might go as far as actually taking the person to court to repossess their property, while Chaotic Good ones might think nothing of simply making of with large amounts of live stock or other valuables (and might even leave a reciept), or, depending on size, simply showing up at the person's, property/home and saying "This is mine now. You have X hours to clear out with only the possessions I personally approve of your taking, or I use my non-lethal breath weapon on you and dump you in the town square in nothing but the clothes on your back. I shall be temporarily residing here until I can arrange the sale of this property and its contents." I could also see a dragon very much going for the "work it off" strategy (for smaller sums especially), and dragging off entire families to be his scale polishers etc. In the case of leveled characters with something even resembling combat abilities the dragon might "draft" them into being his grunts for a period of time or specific adventures.

Also only Evil dragons would work with kobolds for traps... the Good ones hire Dwarves, Gnomes, or the ever adaptable humans.

PirateMonk
2007-10-07, 01:17 PM
I started this post last night, and found the tab still open on my browser this morning and finished it up (without checking for what activity the thread had seen in the mean time). Please excuse me where I repeat what other people have said.

Seems fairly original.


One is that y'all may be underestimating the effect of such high wisdom scores in tipping the balance in terms of long term gain over short term satisfaction when you say that they would be loath to part with any part of their treasure.

Agreed.


In that same vein I would say that GOOD dragons at least would be prone to making loans (and with their life-span they could perhaps be LONG TERM loans) to worthy causes... what the INTEREST RATES would be would be a balance between altruism and greed that would be up to the individual GM to figure out. Leveraging their wealth to both enrich themselves and help make the world a better place seems very plausible. Come to that (and as I have said in the past), the role of loan shark fits a LE dragon very well in my estimation.

As I and others have said, if they're aggressive and ambitious enough, they'll soon go way beyond loan sharking.

Cybren
2007-10-08, 02:08 AM
This reminds me of a Knights of the Dinner table..
The end result wasn't too good for the Untouchable Trio.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-08, 05:56 AM
Why wouldn't a Good dragon hire kobolds? Kobolds aren't always Evil.

In fact, Races of the Dragon points out that there are a few Good kobold warrens...

Also... kobolds are not dirty. :smalltongue: Their cleanliness is second only to gnomes, but don't tell them that.

Brawls
2007-10-08, 02:05 PM
I could actually see a cabal of dragons acting more as central banks to various kingdoms. Making loans to each other to keep monetary policy profitable for themselves (in macro terms). As such, they would be concerned about human affairs insomuch as they impact interest and savings rates. You could even have evil dragons formenting wars sot hey could profit off the the loans needed by the warring factions. While I don't see a dragon as a teller, I could see one as more of a CEO negotiating branches in new cities and making sure his "employees" are managing his investments appropriately. Hell, I could see Gnomes acting as the branch employees that interface with the public, but they ultimately work for the dragon who is bankrolling the endeavor.

As for hunting livestock, I could see the dragons owning large reserves where they conduct caged hunts. Even importing unique game to hunt for sport. Besides, you would need to make examples of people who default on their obligations.:smallbiggrin:

Brawls

MaxMahem
2007-10-08, 11:46 PM
I was focused on the withdrawal issue.

The security of a bank is less important than the trustworthiness of a bank. This is why banks used to invest in lots of gilded trimmings and marble floors and huge, heavy vault doors. They were showing that they had a large investment in 'physical plant'. This proved that they had a serious investment in their location, so that they weren't going to take the money and run.

Security matters, of course, but a the temptation of the banker to defraud his client is every bit as strong than the temptation of a thief to rob the banker.

And who can trust a dragon to let them make a withdrawal? How would such a bank get started?
It's hard separate the concept of a banks 'security' from it's 'trustworthiness'. "Faith" in a bank is tied up in both of these things. No doubt a bank run by a dragon would have all the features of permanency that normal mortal run banks would. Indeed dragons are generally naturally drawn to the grandiose. So they would likely build huge imposing buildings complete with gold leaf, huge vaults, and marble floors, walls, and ceilings, even if such things weren't necessary or practical from a business point of view. But such features were usually built of the dual purpose of making the bank look permanent (it wasn't going away) and secure (the investments were well protected) both in a literal sense (nobody is breaking in) and in a figurative sense (the investments were well invested and wouldn't be squandered).

Dragons would excel at these features for another reason. Being such long lived and powerful creatures a dragon veritably extrudes permanency. Dragon's are not fly by night creatures. No doubt if a dragon builds a bank, that bank (like the dragon itself) will be there for a long time to come. Dragon exists on timespan that dwarf most mortals and even elves. To your average person a dragon is simply timeless. The next best thing to immortal.

Of course this doesn't solve the problem of a dragon's reluctance to allow withdrawals. A bank can be a lasting institution and still not want to give up your money to you. On some levels this is okay. Banks in literature are generally characterized as being reluctant to give out withdrawls (for a classic example see Mary Poppins). Other factors also compete with this however.

#1. Most withdrawals from a bank are not very large. A dragon would probably put up a little fit (heck so would a modern bank!) if you went and withdrew all your funds from the bank at one time, especially if they were considerable. But such transactions are rare. What is the point of putting money in the bank in the first place if you are going to be withdrawing large portions of it back anyways. Mideivel banks would certainly be used almost exclusively for long-term investing.

#2. In D&D certain dragons, notably Red Dragons and most metallic dragons have a reputation for lawfulness as well. These dragons could well be expected to sign on to a binding lawful agreement and be expected to hold to them.


The dragon can rationalize it as "I watch their/our hoard, while they improve my hoard." This is a simple relationship, and it is very much a one-on-one deal. Moreover, it preserves the concept of "your hoard/my hoard" where a more general banking system (with loans, interest, and investment) does not.
As other posters point out, if a dragon was so inclined he could structure a bank so that none of his hoard was ever truly at risk, and never actually loaned out to anybody. Loaning out customer deposits instead of any of his hoard. Being solely the largest depositor and the bank and only gathering interest from that deposit at normal would not be the most profitable way for a dragon to run a bank, but it is certainly possible. Who knows with lifespans measured in centuries, maybe this lowest level of risk possible looks attractive to dragons.


Intelligence and ability to embrace an alien concept aren't the same thing, so I agree with you. A dragon would likely be enraged by the suggestion that they should give a piece of their hoard to someone else in exchange for interest payments, even if their long perspective would allow them to calculate that this would greatly increase the size of their hoard in the long run.
I guess thats up to your interpretation of a dragons mentality. If you think there primal urges are so strong that they could never be overridden by logic and reason, then I really can't argue with you. It's your game after all. However, I believe that dragons should be able to overcome their instincts when necessary, and furthermore such characters have more depth and are more interesting to game. Especially if the idea feeds back into their instincts in some way.

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One thing I like about this idea is that I think it has a lot of flexibility. You could run dragons as bankers as everything from a youngish dragon (like a young adult) being the manger/ceo at a small town or village bank to a cabal of dragons managing the economy of the entire world behind the scenes (ala Shadowrun or something). Different types of dragons might run different types of banks with different policies. Good dragons might give better loan terms but pay less interest. Evil dragons might be willing to except unconventional items (such as your life or your virgin daughter) as collateral for your loans. I think is because the concepts are both so well aligned.

Dragons are often timeless, powerful, greedy, inhuman creatures
Banks are also often timeless, powerful, greedy, inhuman institutions

Tor the Fallen
2007-10-08, 11:48 PM
Liquidity issue- dragons are loathe to give stuff away. They'd make poor lenders.

'Course, they'd also make terrific repo men.
So maybe there's some merit to the idea.

Icewalker
2007-10-09, 12:29 AM
Cool idea. Sounds like an excellent minor addition and possible adventure base for a slightly more fantasy adventure. Where the general feel is more like Harry Potter, the kind of happy but still shy of silly world. Sounds like a pretty interesting idea.

raygungothic
2007-10-09, 06:21 AM
I like the "dragons as central bankers dealing with financial institutions and states" idea better than the "dragons as high street bankers to the general public".

A great many historical states, back in the days when currency contained valuable metal, ended up debasing their currency - at least partly to cope with inflation, despite the fact that it worsened matters considerably. In a fantasy world where the principal states are human or humanoid states, and most gold mining and coin minting is done by these states, the same thing is going to happen - sooner, rather than later.

(I'm going to say "human" from now on, but substitute "dwarf", "hobgoblin" or whatever suits your world.)

Dragons don't mine gold themselves. They must have originally accumulated their gold from human society, accepting it in tribute, extorting it in protection money, looting it in raids. If the gold coins they collect start to be debased, they will be able to smell it - and they will NOT be happy.

The human societies that have survived long enough to become developed states in a world with dragons in it have learned to adopt economic policies which don't anger the dragons. It's that simple. And it's only a small step from there to draconic co-operation, and from there to Dragon central bankers dictating human states' monetary policies to make sure that dragons' hoards remain made of real gold and hold their worth in real terms. Dragon-dictated policies of economic stability are considered preferable to burned crops and mass starvation, and the few desperate or ambitious rulers who mess with this arrangement lose their suddenly-impoverished kingdoms in short order to neighbours, whose armies are funded by large loans from the dragons. Draconic financial institutions don't care who's in power, providing they run society in a way which enriches dragons.

Dragons will probably lend money to financial institutions and states, because they're bright enough to realise that (a) they've become the major holders of money in the world, and the economy will screech to a halt if they don't; (b) dragons can only enrich themselves from human society if human society is itself becoming richer; (c) if humans keep mining more gold (which dragons desire) there will always be a certain amount of inflation; dragons need to invest and profit if their hoards are to hold their value. Just sitting on it will not do. Can you imagine a dragon sitting on his hoard knowing it was becoming less valuable day by day? It would be like an unscratchable itch - and dragons really hate those.

Of course, if the PCs *kill* a dragon they will probably (a) be outlawed by all human states, (b) totally wreck the entire world economy.

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. If dragons ever appear in my campaign world it will be this way.

Brawls
2007-10-09, 02:02 PM
****Good Stuff*****

Of course, if the PCs *kill* a dragon they will probably (a) be outlawed by all human states, (b) totally wreck the entire world economy.

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. If dragons ever appear in my campaign world it will be this way.
I want to play in your campaign!:smallbiggrin:

Yakk
2007-10-09, 03:00 PM
Now think bigger.

The Copper and Green dragons might be bankers.

The Red dragons will simply take over entire nations. Plomp. Sure, wiping out the humans reduces the wealth of the area: but it isn't as if there aren't lots of other spots to plomp down on.

The Gold dragons will be playing politics with the Gods themselves. Occasionally they will interface with human mystics and saints, but on the scale of Gold, humanity is like a bunch of kids in the playground.

The Silver dragons will be building up the forces of civilization from behind the scenes.

These are ancient, super intelligent, super powerful beings. To them, a generation is 500 years: imagine the 2000 years from 1000 BC (Bronze age) to 1000 AD (post-Roman empire Europe, Great Wall era in China). That period is 50,000 years to a Dragon -- evolutionary time-scales on the part of humanity.

If mortals are important, the Dragons will be playing the great game with them. The levels of leverage they apply will be deep, and the organizations they control extensive. Most won't even know they are working for Dragons.

raygungothic
2007-10-09, 03:21 PM
Yakk - that could be great, though it would need a lot of careful thinking through! It makes dragons rather more ambitious than a simple "they're bankers" approach, and it makes them care more about worldly power than I was imagining, but it does make a lot of sense if their motives go far beyond simple greed.

Brawls - Thank you, you're very kind, though I'm not sure it's as original as all that. Try re-reading it while substituting "international finance corporation" for "dragon" to see how little different it really is from the modern world... having analogies to draw on and knowing how they join up is really helpful to me when worldbuilding, I couldn't do without it.