Necromancer Minionmancy Problems?

[Stevesciguy]

Begin Rant:

So, one of my favorite villain types - and my go-to in villain games - is the Necromancer. The dude who controls swarms of undead that can never tire or complain, etc.

However, whenever I actually try to play one of these guys, I run into an issue - finding undead worth raising is hard.

More often than not, making a creature undead strips away everything that made that creature special, turning it into a generic skeleton or zombie, now with either a massive penalty to AC or becoming permanently staggered(or both, if you raise a creature without Nat Armor as a zombie), and a penalty to attack bonus, since undead HD only give half BAB(Pathfinder does improve this somewhat by giving them 3/4 BAB).

To top that off, doing this cuts off any class HD the creature had. The human boss of the story arc that your 10th level party just killed? He was level 12, but now he's a 1 HD skeleton, or a 2 HD zombie.

This means that to get undead that are of any use, you have to try and get weird stuff that might not be available in your campaign, like dragons or hydra. Or you can try and use Create (Greater) Undead, and hope that you can successfully mind control it with another spell, only to have an undead that's still, more often than not, too low HD to do anything helpful.

Things like Dread Necromancer's features and Corpsecrafter are a good start to fixing this, but... like I said, they're a start. They don't bridge the gap, and a character just can't spend all of his/her feats on trying to make their undead usable. Additionally, because the game is built around the existence of magic items, you either need to kit out your undead as well as your Fighter, or get them good enough stats that they don't need it; both of which are not viable, especially if, by necessity or desire, you get humanoid minions rather than monstrous ones.

End Rant.

Ok, so after ranting about the above, I have a couple questions:

1. Am I doing something wrong, or is undead minionmancy really this borked?

Can't rule out the possibility that I'm bad at the game. But given that I've spent hours trying to find the solution, I'd like to believe I'm not that incompetent.

2. If it is just that borked, are there any good quality existing overhauls for necromancy?

Just so that I may request them in the future. And also so I don't have to do it myself, although that brings me to:

3. If it is just that borked, and there are no overhauls for it, what are the first things that come to your mind on how to fix it?

I really, really do like necromancy. I think it's fun, and I love the idea of being at the head of a writhing horde of undead. So if it comes to it, I might try my hand at an attempt to fix it so that you can actually raise a humanoid corpse and get a useful minion. I know it's exceptionally hard to balance - here, the line between 'useful meatshield' and 'Leadership-esque cohort I can raise at will and have multiple copies of' is very thin. But, I've got nothing better to do with my spare time, so whatever.

I've got a couple floating ideas, but I want to hear some stuff about the above before I put that much energy into making something.

Let the discussion commence! Either that, or you guys making fun of me for not knowing how to Necro properly:smalltongue:

[Segev]

It really is hard to use, yes. Somewhat by design, because the designers more meant for it to be a tool of high level end bosses punching below their level in early, distant encounters waaaaay back in 1e when it was created.

That said, Command Undead is not a bad way to maintain your create undead creations. It isn’t perfect control, but you can design to win that opposed Charisma check. Note, too, that intimidating them doesn’t break it, and cha can be about intimidation as easily as liking and trusting you, if you need to be harsh. Also, Chain Spell and Extend Spell on Command Undead is marvelous, and affordable if you keep a small orphanage of undead waifs around you (Slaymates).

Stacking a Desecration with an altar to an evil god when you make your undead helps a lot on tankiness. Look into undead leadership and normal leadership, too. I don’t think you can have both, but either can get you more minions. And I don’t think the undead version costs you for getting mindless minions destroyed.

It’s not in the rules, but building your own monstrosity is a trope of some necromancers in fiction, and is also something done with real Dino bones at times when they have multiple specimens they’re not sure belong to the same beast. As your DM if you can build your own hydra, for example. Say, out of 2-4 times the HD of corpses.

Oh, and don’t forget spell stitching. It’s in Complete Arcane.

Also, you can use minions for mundane things. Dumb labor. Sending forces to attack where you aren’t. Heck, while the mindless things won’t usually act on their own, they are evil, so skeleton hordes sent to attack something probably will not quit heading out to attack just because you lose command of them. Treat them like long-range projectiles.

Finally, don’t be shy about asking your DM if you can specifically hunt monsters you want, like the hydra.

[Falontani]

Begin Rant:

So, one of my favorite villain types - and my go-to in villain games - is the Necromancer. The dude who controls swarms of undead that can never tire or complain, etc.

However, whenever I actually try to play one of these guys, I run into an issue - finding undead worth raising is hard.

More often than not, making a creature undead strips away everything that made that creature special, turning it into a generic skeleton or zombie, now with either a massive penalty to AC or becoming permanently staggered(or both, if you raise a creature without Nat Armor as a zombie), and a penalty to attack bonus, since undead HD only give half BAB(Pathfinder does improve this somewhat by giving them 3/4 BAB).

To top that off, doing this cuts off any class HD the creature had. The human boss of the story arc that your 10th level party just killed? He was level 12, but now he's a 1 HD skeleton, or a 2 HD zombie.

This means that to get undead that are of any use, you have to try and get weird stuff that might not be available in your campaign, like dragons or hydra. Or you can try and use Create (Greater) Undead, and hope that you can successfully mind control it with another spell, only to have an undead that's still, more often than not, too low HD to do anything helpful.

Things like Dread Necromancer's features and Corpsecrafter are a good start to fixing this, but... like I said, they're a start. They don't bridge the gap, and a character just can't spend all of his/her feats on trying to make their undead usable. Additionally, because the game is built around the existence of magic items, you either need to kit out your undead as well as your Fighter, or get them good enough stats that they don't need it; both of which are not viable, especially if, by necessity or desire, you get humanoid minions rather than monstrous ones.

End Rant.

Ok, so after ranting about the above, I have a couple questions:

1. Am I doing something wrong, or is undead minionmancy really this borked?

Can't rule out the possibility that I'm bad at the game. But given that I've spent hours trying to find the solution, I'd like to believe I'm not that incompetent.

2. If it is just that borked, are there any good quality existing overhauls for necromancy?

Just so that I may request them in the future. And also so I don't have to do it myself, although that brings me to:

3. If it is just that borked, and there are no overhauls for it, what are the first things that come to your mind on how to fix it?

I really, really do like necromancy. I think it's fun, and I love the idea of being at the head of a writhing horde of undead. So if it comes to it, I might try my hand at an attempt to fix it so that you can actually raise a humanoid corpse and get a useful minion. I know it's exceptionally hard to balance - here, the line between 'useful meatshield' and 'Leadership-esque cohort I can raise at will and have multiple copies of' is very thin. But, I've got nothing better to do with my spare time, so whatever.

I've got a couple floating ideas, but I want to hear some stuff about the above before I put that much energy into making something.

Let the discussion commence! Either that, or you guys making fun of me for not knowing how to Necro properly:smalltongue:

Core undead minionmancy is hard. But you have already started talking about Dread Necromancer and corpse crafter so I assume your not core only. So let me introduce you to:

“Bone” is a template that can be added to any nonundead, corporeal creature that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature). The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains all type modifiers and subtypes, if applicable.
The bone creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Hit Dice: Increase to d12.

Speed: Winged bone creatures retain the ability to fly. Now, however, the flight is magical, as the fly spell, but it still uses the creature’s original fly speed.

AC: Natural armor bonus changes to a number based on the bone creature’s size. (This part is good for humanoids, poor for most other creatures)

Attacks: A bone creature retains all the natural attacks and weapon proficiencies of the base creature, except for attacks that can’t work without flesh, such as a mind flayer’s tentacle attacks. A creature with hands gains one claw attack per hand; a bone creature can strike with all of them at its full attack bonus. If the creature already had claw attacks with its hands, use the bone creature attack format and damage, if they’re better. The base creature’s base attack bonus does not change.

Damage: Natural and manufactured weapons deal normal damage. A claw attack deals damage depending on the bone creature’s size.
Use the base creature’s claw damage if it’s greater.

Special Qualities: Same as the base creature. In addition, all bone creatures gain darkvision with a range of 60 feet, undead traits, and various immunities.

Immunities (Ex): Bone creatures have cold immunity. Because they lack flesh or internal organs, they take only half damage from piercing and slashing weapons.

Saves: Same as the base creature, modified by ability score adjustments.

Abilities: Modify the base creature as follows: Str +0, Dex +4, Con —, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +0.

Skills: Same as the base creature, modified by ability score adjustments.

Feats: Same as the base creature, plus the bone creature gets the Weapon Finesse feat with any one weapon for free.



“Corpse” is a template that can be added to any nonundead,nonconstruct, nonplant corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature). The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains all type modifiers and subtypes, if applicable. The corpse creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Hit Dice: Increase to d12.

Speed: Winged corpse creatures retain the ability to fly. However, their maneuverability becomes clumsy.

AC: The corpse creature gains a natural armor bonus based on its size.
The corpse creature keeps the natural armor bonus of the base creature if it’s better.

Attacks: The corpse creature retains all the natural attacks and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. A corpse creature also gains a slam attack. The base creature’s base attack bonus does not change. Damage: Natural and manufactured weapons deal normal damage. A slam attack deals damage depending on the corpse creature’s size. For purposes of Strength bonuses to damage, a slam attack is considered a two-handed attack.
Use the base creature’s slam damage if it’s greater.

Special Qualities: Same as the base creature. In addition, all corpse creatures gain darkvision with a range of 60 feet, and undead traits.

Saves: Same as the base creature, modified by ability score adjustments.

Abilities: Modify the base creature as follows: Str +4, Dex –2, Con —, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +0.

Skills: Same as the base creature, modified by ability score adjustments.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +1.

Alignment: Always evil.

There are many more

http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=181.0 is where I go to learn more about those that are able to be created by a normal necromancer.

[Zeb]

I often find that my necromancers are the tortured artist types mostly for marvelous pigments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#marvelousPigments). You can just draw the body parts or corpses you need to make any undead you can think of, no need to hunt hydras or dragons.

There are also a lot of options for massed hordes or elite undead, usually I focus on one or the other. some does require source diving but there are resources (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474935-3-5-Undead-list) for that.

[magic9mushroom]

Stacking a Desecration with an altar to an evil god when you make your undead helps a lot on tankiness. Look into undead leadership and normal leadership, too. I don’t think you can have both, but either can get you more minions. And I don’t think the undead version costs you for getting mindless minions destroyed.

I took a look at Desecrate a while back and I really don't think it gives the permanent benefits people seem to think it does. I haven't read a huge amount of modules (nearly every sourcebook, though), but I don't recall any undead with permanent boosts because "they were summoned/created in a desecrated zone way back when", and there are a few things with desecrating auras that explicitly aren't permanent. At most, it should go away when the Desecrate goes away, which isn't that long in the grand scheme of things.

[Segev]

I took a look at Desecrate a while back and I really don't think it gives the permanent benefits people seem to think it does. I haven't read a huge amount of modules (nearly every sourcebook, though), but I don't recall any undead with permanent boosts because "they were summoned/created in a desecrated zone way back when", and there are a few things with desecrating auras that explicitly aren't permanent. At most, it should go away when the Desecrate goes away, which isn't that long in the grand scheme of things.


This spell imbues an area with negative energy. Each Charisma check made to turn undead within this area takes a -3 profane penalty, and every undead creature entering a desecrated area gains a +1 profane bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws. An undead creature created within or summoned into such an area gains +1 hit points per HD.

If the desecrated area contains an altar, shrine, or other permanent fixture dedicated to your deity or aligned higher power, the modifiers given above are doubled (-6 profane penalty on turning checks, +2 profane bonus and +2 hit points per HD for undead in the area).
You can read it from the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm).

The underlined portion, you're right about: it only applies when your undead minions are in the area of the spell. For this reason, I usually recommend making the altar portable and tying it to the inner ribcage of something large and skeletal, or having it carried around Ark of the Covenant style by some undead minions. If you can, Widen the spell to make it cover more area.

But the bolded part says that the only thing you have to check is whether the undead were created within the area. It doesn't say that the effects go away when you leave, nor give any contingency upon being in the area to get them save when created. Likewise, it doesn't grant additional hp to undead who merely enter.

You're right: you don't see undead created in modules in those areas. Most undead in modules are uncontrolled and spontaneously-occurring. Undead created by BBEGs will often happen, if not on-screen, then at least at the behest of the DM, who is free to use the necromancer NPC's spell resources however he likes. If the guy has an altar to a dark god (and many do), he probably also has somebody around to cast desecrate so he can make the best minions out of it.

But not seeing it in modules doesn't mean the rules don't say what they say.

[Malphegor]

Oh, and it's probably worth knowing that necromancers can also use the Living Zombie template (Champions of Ruin) a your spellcasting attribute number of times for some living victims to create mindless zombie-like minions who increase your natural lifespan (by accelerating their own, so they might age rapidly) but are sort of still alive (but presumably are glowing with necromantic auras to the right detect spells) and from what I can gather understand basic commands better than normal zombies. So they can't speak but they can act as lower tier lieutenants, and if you found like, tortoises, it might be worth giving them a indoor sanctum with plenty of food and water in your dread fortress of terror to have Living Zombie Galapagos Tortoises extending your lifespan in secret in your lair.

I always feel that undead are high maintenance to be good perma-soldiers, honestly, so it's always worth supplementing them with hirelings and minions employed with gold, if for nothing else than to avoid the 'when all you have is zombies, all your solutions look like a Romero movie' situation.

I suspect the design of necromancy spells, minionmancy stuff in particular, expects necromancers to invest a substantial amount of black onyx and time into disposable minions, which makes sense narratively (the necromancer, champions of death and unlife, throwing away 'lives' freely in a way beyond a normal commander would want to) but as a gameplay choice is... weird, since undead are pricey when you go beyond the rank and fodder basic undead.

Meanwhile most players would naturally try to keep their army of zombies close. Keeping them as permanent additions to their army.

So, from what I've read, a lot of people like to go for undead that can raise their own minions with seperate HD pools (various magic-using undead, wights, skulking cysts...), or go for templates that make the undead they do have remain competitive.

(incidentally I'm a big fan of making living minions be added to armies, so Living Zombies and the Mother Cyst feat's spells are my favourite necromantic shenanigans- the latter lets you give people magic bulges that let you take over their brains and mind control them, or explode them if they grow to be annoying)

I've always wondered if trolls would be valued by necromancers- chain them up, chop off a limb, use that limb as raw material for crawling claws and various minor undead, the troll regenerates, bam badda bing.

But of course a lot of necromancy doesn't necessarily lend itself to the murderhobo life. Sometimes, you'll need a lab. Or a lair. to keep your uncontrolled undead at least.

[Segev]

On bone and corpse creatures: are there rules for how a necromancer makes them, or are they just a "thing," like a lot of other undead which have no rules for how to make them other than "they exist?"


Oh, and it's probably worth knowing that necromancers can also use the Living Zombie template (Champions of Ruin) a your spellcasting attribute number of times for some living victims to create mindless zombie-like minions who increase your natural lifespan (by accelerating their own, so they might age rapidly) but are sort of still alive (but presumably are glowing with necromantic auras to the right detect spells) and from what I can gather understand basic commands better than normal zombies. So they can't speak but they can act as lower tier lieutenants, and if you found like, tortoises, it might be worth giving them a indoor sanctum with plenty of food and water in your dread fortress of terror to have Living Zombie Galapagos Tortoises extending your lifespan in secret in your lair.More bodyguards and servants than lieutenants. Lieutenants need to be able to actually command. But they are so good as to be nearly broken.


I always feel that undead are high maintanence to be good honest, so it's always worth supplementing them with hirelings and minions employed with gold, if for nothing else than to avoid the 'when all you have is zombies, all your solutions look like a Romero movie' situation.

I suspect the design of necromancy spells, minionmancy stuff in particular, expects necromancers to invest a substantial amount of black onyx and time into disposable minions, which makes sense narratively but as a gameplay choice is... weird.

Meanwhile most players would naturally try to keep their army of zombies close. Keeping them as permanent additions to their army.Quite. The reason they cost so much in black onyx is that they're theoretically permanent, and this scares D&D's designers. They were much more comfortable with the imminently unsatisfying later addition of summon undead I-IX, which they then went and put in Conjuration (for valid, but frustrating, reasons). 5e's solution of ongoing resource investment (have to keep re-casting the spell to maintain control) is interesting, but I think you could probably do away with or dramatically reduce the gp cost of 3e's method and not horribly break anything. Maybe the black onyx has to be used as a focus, and gets "locked" to the undead it created until the undead are destroyed, but can be recovered for re-use? Either it stays in the undead, or it can be retrieved and held to retain control. Maybe even taking it away from the necromancer denies him control of the associated minion (but doesn't allow whoever has it to gain control without the necromancer granting it in some way).

I'll have to think about this some more; this is off the top of my head. Encouraging them to be used as fodder is a neat idea. But the costs need to be adjusted, and they can't be strictly based on a duration, because that undermines the cool factor of "preparing the undead army."


So, from what I've read, a lot of people like to go for undead that can raise their own minions with seperate HD pools (various magic-using undead, wights, skulking cysts...), or go for templates that make the undead they do have remain competitive.

(incidentally I'm a big fan of making living minions be added to armies, so Living Zombies and the Mother Cyst feat's spells are my favourite necromantic shenanigans- the latter lets you give people magic bulges that let you take over their brains and mind control them, or explode them if they grow to be annoying)

I've always wondered if trolls would be valued by necromancers- chain them up, chop off a limb, use that limb as raw material for crawling claws and various minor undead, the troll regenerates, bam badda bing.

But of course a lot of necromancy doesn't necessarily lend itself to the murderhobo life. Sometimes, you'll need a lab. Or a lair. to keep your uncontrolled undead at least.Mother Cyst and its associated stuff is amazing, yeah. Makes for really nasty villains. Also, love the troll idea.

And necromancy not only doesn't always lend itself to murderhoboing, it doesn't even benefit particularly from the murder part; there are plenty of corpses you don't have to risk your life to create, just lying around to be found.

[magic9mushroom]

But the bolded part says that the only thing you have to check is whether the undead were created within the area. It doesn't say that the effects go away when you leave, nor give any contingency upon being in the area to get them save when created. Likewise, it doesn't grant additional hp to undead who merely enter.

Well, the thing is that while specific trumps general, a simple lack of noting some general rule doesn't make it cease to exist.


DURATION
A spell's Duration entry tells you how long the magical energy of the spell lasts.
Timed Durations: Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or some other increment. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell's duration is variable (power word stun, for example), the DM rolls it secretly.

Subjects, Effects, and Areas: If the spell affects creatures directly (for example, [i]charm person), the result travels with the subjects for the spell's duration. If the spell creates an effect, the effect lasts for the duration. The effect might move (for example, a summoned monster might chase your enemies) or remain still. Such an effect can be destroyed prior to when its duration ends (for example, fog cloud can be dispersed by wind). If the spell affects an area, as silence does, then the spell stays with that area for its duration. Creatures become subject to the spell when they enter the area and are no longer subject to it when they leave.


Desecrate
[...]
Area: 20-ft. radius emanation
Duration: 2 hours/level

There's no explicit exclusion from the area for the +HP effect, so it goes away when they leave the area (though I suppose it might apply again when they stepped into a desecrated area again, since they don't exactly stop having been created within a desecrated area; that one's a bit murky). Likewise, there's no explicit exclusion from the duration for the +HP effect, so it goes away at the end of the duration (though, again, who knows what happens when they step into another Desecrate effect).

And, as I said, there doesn't seem to be any implicit evidence of its permanence from monster statblocks.

[Segev]

Well, the thing is that while specific trumps general, a simple lack of noting some general rule doesn't make it cease to exist.





There's no explicit exclusion from the area for the +HP effect, so it goes away when they leave the area (though I suppose it might apply again when they stepped into a desecrated area again, since they don't exactly stop having been created within a desecrated area; that one's a bit murky). Likewise, there's no explicit exclusion from the duration for the +HP effect, so it goes away at the end of the duration (though, again, who knows what happens when they step into another Desecrate effect).

And, as I said, there doesn't seem to be any implicit evidence of its permanence from monster statblocks.

That's an interesting take, and possibly a valid reading. It would absolutely, even by that reading, be required by the RAW that an undead creature created in such an area receive full benefits when in the area of another such spell. In fact, this is in some ways a buff: being created in an area of desecrate WITHOUT an altar would still get you double-benefit to hp when entering a desecrated area WITH an altar.

It probably would have been cleaner to just have the spell grant bonus hp to undead in its area, rather than dealing with the "created within" clause, but...well, it's probably not broken how everybody uses it, and it would be usable how you outline it. So either works.

Edit: Oh, and the reason it can and is often read to not end with the spell's end is that the spell effect is giving them +2 hp/HD, not buffing them to have 2 extra hp per HD. The effect of giving them hp is part of the instantaneous spell creating them; desecrate just buffs that spell's effect.

It's akin to if you had a spell which, when a creature is healed in its area, it receives +1 hp per CL of the caster of the healing spell. Those hp don't go away when the AoE spell ends. Neither do the hp per HD for the undead created in the area of desecrate: they now have those hp, having been instantaneously created with them.

Heck, you don't suddenly have the undead over 2x your CL collapse when you leave the AoE of the desecrate spell, either!

[Stevesciguy]

Core undead minionmancy is hard. But you have already started talking about Dread Necromancer and corpse crafter so I assume your not core only. So let me introduce you to:

“Bone” is a template that can be added to any nonundead, corporeal creature that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature). The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains all type modifiers and subtypes, if applicable.
The bone creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Hit Dice: Increase to d12.

Speed: Winged bone creatures retain the ability to fly. Now, however, the flight is magical, as the fly spell, but it still uses the creature’s original fly speed.

AC: Natural armor bonus changes to a number based on the bone creature’s size. (This part is good for humanoids, poor for most other creatures)

Attacks: A bone creature retains all the natural attacks and weapon proficiencies of the base creature, except for attacks that can’t work without flesh, such as a mind flayer’s tentacle attacks. A creature with hands gains one claw attack per hand; a bone creature can strike with all of them at its full attack bonus. If the creature already had claw attacks with its hands, use the bone creature attack format and damage, if they’re better. The base creature’s base attack bonus does not change.

Damage: Natural and manufactured weapons deal normal damage. A claw attack deals damage depending on the bone creature’s size.
Use the base creature’s claw damage if it’s greater.

Special Qualities: Same as the base creature. In addition, all bone creatures gain darkvision with a range of 60 feet, undead traits, and various immunities.

Immunities (Ex): Bone creatures have cold immunity. Because they lack flesh or internal organs, they take only half damage from piercing and slashing weapons.

Saves: Same as the base creature, modified by ability score adjustments.

Abilities: Modify the base creature as follows: Str +0, Dex +4, Con —, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +0.

Skills: Same as the base creature, modified by ability score adjustments.

Feats: Same as the base creature, plus the bone creature gets the Weapon Finesse feat with any one weapon for free.



“Corpse” is a template that can be added to any nonundead,nonconstruct, nonplant corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature). The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains all type modifiers and subtypes, if applicable. The corpse creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Hit Dice: Increase to d12.

Speed: Winged corpse creatures retain the ability to fly. However, their maneuverability becomes clumsy.

AC: The corpse creature gains a natural armor bonus based on its size.
The corpse creature keeps the natural armor bonus of the base creature if it’s better.

Attacks: The corpse creature retains all the natural attacks and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. A corpse creature also gains a slam attack. The base creature’s base attack bonus does not change. Damage: Natural and manufactured weapons deal normal damage. A slam attack deals damage depending on the corpse creature’s size. For purposes of Strength bonuses to damage, a slam attack is considered a two-handed attack.
Use the base creature’s slam damage if it’s greater.

Special Qualities: Same as the base creature. In addition, all corpse creatures gain darkvision with a range of 60 feet, and undead traits.

Saves: Same as the base creature, modified by ability score adjustments.

Abilities: Modify the base creature as follows: Str +4, Dex –2, Con —, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +0.

Skills: Same as the base creature, modified by ability score adjustments.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +1.

Alignment: Always evil.

There are many more

http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=181.0 is where I go to learn more about those that are able to be created by a normal necromancer.

Ah, I did know about corpse creature! and even meant to link it in the OP as one of the ways that you could obtain reasonably good undead. However, it does come with a few issues:

1. You need to be able to control it. If you're corpsifying something level-appropriate, this can be difficult, and leaves you with a creature which could possibly retaliate at an inconvenient time.

2. More importantly, however, is that this runs into the 'undead cohort' problem. If you get past the problem of the Will saves, it suddenly opens the possibility that your Necromancer can add creatures to the party that are as or more powerful than the party members. Think raising boss monsters.

I didn't know about bone creature, however, and more lists of stuff are always good.


I suspect the design of necromancy spells, minionmancy stuff in particular, expects necromancers to invest a substantial amount of black onyx and time into disposable minions, which makes sense narratively (the necromancer, champions of death and unlife, throwing away 'lives' freely in a way beyond a normal commander would want to) but as a gameplay choice is... weird, since undead are pricey when you go beyond the rank and fodder basic undead.

Yeah, it's not great. Undead that are truly disposable tend to be utterly worthless, not having the stats to be able to make or avoid attacks. Undead that aren't disposable can be worth it, but come with their own difficulties - like just trying to control the damned thing - and then if it does die, you've just gotten screwed over pretty hard.


On bone and corpse creatures: are there rules for how a necromancer makes them, or are they just a "thing," like a lot of other undead which have no rules for how to make them other than "they exist?"

More bodyguards and servants than lieutenants. Lieutenants need to be able to actually command. But they are so good as to be nearly broken.

Quite. The reason they cost so much in black onyx is that they're theoretically permanent, and this scares D&D's designers. They were much more comfortable with the imminently unsatisfying later addition of summon undead I-IX, which they then went and put in Conjuration (for valid, but frustrating, reasons). 5e's solution of ongoing resource investment (have to keep re-casting the spell to maintain control) is interesting, but I think you could probably do away with or dramatically reduce the gp cost of 3e's method and not horribly break anything. Maybe the black onyx has to be used as a focus, and gets "locked" to the undead it created until the undead are destroyed, but can be recovered for re-use? Either it stays in the undead, or it can be retrieved and held to retain control. Maybe even taking it away from the necromancer denies him control of the associated minion (but doesn't allow whoever has it to gain control without the necromancer granting it in some way).

I'll have to think about this some more; this is off the top of my head. Encouraging them to be used as fodder is a neat idea. But the costs need to be adjusted, and they can't be strictly based on a duration, because that undermines the cool factor of "preparing the undead army."

Mother Cyst and its associated stuff is amazing, yeah. Makes for really nasty villains. Also, love the troll idea.

And necromancy not only doesn't always lend itself to murderhoboing, it doesn't even benefit particularly from the murder part; there are plenty of corpses you don't have to risk your life to create, just lying around to be found.

I am unsure about bone creatures, but corpse creatures can be made with Create Greater Undead, raising and applying the template to whatever corpse you targeted.

Changing the material component into a Focus component is an interesting thought.

[Falontani]

Ah, I did know about corpse creature! and even meant to link it in the OP as one of the ways that you could obtain reasonably good undead. However, it does come with a few issues:

1. You need to be able to control it. If you're corpsifying something level-appropriate, this can be difficult, and leaves you with a creature which could possibly retaliate at an inconvenient time.

2. More importantly, however, is that this runs into the 'undead cohort' problem. If you get past the problem of the Will saves, it suddenly opens the possibility that your Necromancer can add creatures to the party that are as or more powerful than the party members. Think raising boss monsters.

I didn't know about bone creature, however, and more lists of stuff are always good.



Yeah, it's not great. Undead that are truly disposable tend to be utterly worthless, not having the stats to be able to make or avoid attacks. Undead that aren't disposable can be worth it, but come with their own difficulties - like just trying to control the damned thing - and then if it does die, you've just gotten screwed over pretty hard.



I am unsure about bone creatures, but corpse creatures can be made with Create Greater Undead, raising and applying the template to whatever corpse you targeted.

Changing the material component into a Focus component is an interesting thought.

Create greater undead is largely the jurisdiction of inorporeal undead. Intelligent corporeal are usually from create undead. Unintelligent undead are usually from animate dead.

As for the whole leadership part. That is the bane of the balanced necromancer. Either your dm allows you to raise minions properly using the more powerful templates that any necromancer worth his salt would use (which unbalances the necromancer largely) or he limits you to skeletons and zombies that you have to seek out in order to gain (which makes you no better than an equipment reliant mundane).
The best way I've seen it done was a gentleman's agreement to leave anything too powerful at home and bring things that are weaker than the mundanes. Or. Play the necromancer as a solo character campaign. His undead are the party.

[Stevesciguy]

As for the whole leadership part. That is the bane of the balanced necromancer. Either your dm allows you to raise minions properly using the more powerful templates that any necromancer worth his salt would use (which unbalances the necromancer largely) or he limits you to skeletons and zombies that you have to seek out in order to gain (which makes you no better than an equipment reliant mundane).
The best way I've seen it done was a gentleman's agreement to leave anything too powerful at home and bring things that are weaker than the mundanes. Or. Play the necromancer as a solo character campaign. His undead are the party.

That's why I made this thread. To see if there was an existing quality fix for the issue - or, failing that, gather opinions from the Playground on what they would do to fix it.

[RoboEmperor]

Ways to get corpses
1. Lesser Planar Exchange. Create a magic circle complete with calling diagram and dimensional anchor cast on it. Cast Lesser Planar Exchange. Control the celestial griffon or fiendish tiger to commit suicide. Spell ends, you return, the griffon/tiger corpse is prevented from returning to its home plane, and you now have a griffon/tiger corpse. Do this as many times as you want. If you have Fell Animate end the spell before the griffon/tiger dies.

2. Stone to Flesh. Create a statue of a creature, cast Stone to Flesh, and now you have a corpse of the creature. Be mindful of the spell's area because it's gonna be difficult to create a corpse of a creature that's bigger than medium. You might be able to fit some large creatures in the spell's area.

3. Polymorph Any Object. As stone to flesh except this one's area is very, very huge so you can make colossal corpses.

4. Planar Binding line of spells. Call a creature and kill it.

[Eldariel]

It isn't a real problem: Undead variants aren't supposed to be as good as the original. They can still be plenty strong against whatever you put them to fight with particularly since you can give them buffed weapons or whatever; how about an Ettin Skeleton with two +4 Morningstars (from Greater Magic Weapon)? That would have a higher attack bonus than the original. Fire Giants, Titans, etc. are all great for the investment. In general, Outsiders, Giants, Magical Beasts, and occasionally even Animals are very worthwhile Undead.

Now, leveled characters sucking is kinda bleh which is why you use Animate Dread Warrior [Unapproachable East] or such with them. And you can always get around the cost issue with Spellstitching, which is another way to make Undead worth way, way more while being kinda freeish. You can also control an infinite amount of mindless undead with e.g. Command Undead so you can make up for quality with quantity. In short, undead are real good but not quite as good as the original. Still, they're a way to prevent the resurrection of the BBEG (no resurrection spells can be cast as long as his Undead variant is around), a solid army with plenty good stats if you go for big things (as you should) and equip them with spell-boosts, tireless labor and all sorts of cool stuff. It's just a matter of finding something worthwhile and getting a bit creative (or using Polymorph Any Object to produce any bodies you desire).

[Oberron]

Things like Dread Necromancer's features and Corpsecrafter are a good start to fixing this, but... like I said, they're a start. They don't bridge the gap, and a character just can't spend all of his/her feats on trying to make their undead usable. Additionally, because the game is built around the existence of magic items, you either need to kit out your undead as well as your Fighter, or get them good enough stats that they don't need it; both of which are not viable, especially if, by necessity or desire, you get humanoid minions rather than monstrous ones.

If you don't want to spend all your gold buying equipment for your undead and don't want to spend every feat you have just to make undead passable drop all of the corpsecrafter line(aside from corpse crafter itself of course) and grab Fell energy spell from dragon compendium and use spells to buff your undead. I made a guide HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?586132-Fell-Energy-Spell-For-the-copperpinching-Necromancer-wanting-buff-undead) talking about it for copperpinching buffing undead. Several options can turn even a simple skeleton into a bulldozer. Best part of it is if the undead dies and falls in lava or its gear is unrecoverable all you lost was some spell slots and less that 100gp of mundane items instead of thousands.

[Aotrs Commander]

The Pale Master';s second level ability to use Animate Undead is increadibly useful, because it comes an an SLA. Which (it even states in Libris Mortis) means you don't need material components.

It means you can, at least, now re-stock your skeletons and zombies once per day without having to use any gold on onyx.

My Pale Master went around with a portable hole and stored a lot of his skeletons (or useful corpses) in there. (Yes, it was definitely a Krypton Factor exercise getting skeletons nestled in there - and emphatically and out-of-combat exercise - but it always kept them out of the way for them poor folks who didn't understand in towns and such.)



Though we never quite got there, I also managed to slightly cheese a way to get a Lich at ECL 11 for Undead Leadership. It involved a lot of punching chickens. (The main grovel thing being pointing out to the DM that the lich's ability to regenerate once destroyed would save us both a lot of time constantly renewing NPCs if we just pretended said character had a windfall into the money for the phylactery and the promise that said character traded out DMM:Persist after it was done on his next level up).

[RoboEmperor]

The Pale Master';s second level ability to use Animate Undead is increadibly useful, because it comes an an SLA. Which (it even states in Libris Mortis) means you don't need material components.

The only problem I have with this is it comes online way too late. DMM:Fell Animate at level 1 is much better but can't animate skeletons, but on the other hand doesn't have an hd limit.

[Stevesciguy]

It isn't a real problem: Undead variants aren't supposed to be as good as the original. They can still be plenty strong against whatever you put them to fight with particularly since you can give them buffed weapons or whatever; how about an Ettin Skeleton with two +4 Morningstars (from Greater Magic Weapon)? That would have a higher attack bonus than the original. Fire Giants, Titans, etc. are all great for the investment. In general, Outsiders, Giants, Magical Beasts, and occasionally even Animals are very worthwhile Undead.

My problem isn't that they aren't as good as the original - it's that they tend to be so much worse than the original as to be useless. As well as the issue that oftentimes the thing that made that desirable monster unique gets removed when raised, removing the incentive to ever raise anything other than hulking meatshields.


Now, leveled characters sucking is kinda bleh which is why you use Animate Dread Warrior [Unapproachable East] or such with them.

I feel that it kind of reinforces my point that your go to for that situation is a spell from a 3.0 setting-specific splatbook. And even within that setting, the spell has this text:


Created twenty years ago by the zulkir of Necromancy, Szass Tam, this spell is found only in the spellbooks of those Red Wizards who served as his apprentices and the apprentices of those apprentices.

Ignoring that stuff, this spell has the problem of hitting the other end of the spectrum and arguably being too powerful. It is essentially "Leadership: the spell" and it wouldn't surprise me if it were banned at tables that don't use Leadership.


You can also control an infinite amount of mindless undead with e.g. Command Undead so you can make up for quality with quantity.

One of the reasons that I like 3.5 is because it doesn't have bounded accuracy. As you level up, your skill grows and previously difficult creatures can no longer even touch you, much less put up a fight. That applies here. In my experience, quantity over quality just doesn't work. Trying to make 20 attacks hoping for a Nat 20 to get that auto-hit just hasn't been feasible for me, especially when the attack may well bounce off anyway due to damage reduction.

Now, admittedly, the games I play tend to be on the higher end of the power scale. It is entirely possible that moving to a lower power scale would give quantity a chance to work, but that would also mean playing games I enjoy less.


a solid army with plenty good stats if you go for big things (as you should)

But what if I don't want/have access to big things? There are times where I like my armies made of normal skellingtons, rather than giants and the like that I had to go out of my way to obtain.


If you don't want to spend all your gold buying equipment for your undead and don't want to spend every feat you have just to make undead passable drop all of the corpsecrafter line(aside from corpse crafter itself of course) and grab Fell energy spell from dragon compendium and use spells to buff your undead. I made a guide HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?586132-Fell-Energy-Spell-For-the-copperpinching-Necromancer-wanting-buff-undead) talking about it for copperpinching buffing undead. Several options can turn even a simple skeleton into a bulldozer. Best part of it is if the undead dies and falls in lava or its gear is unrecoverable all you lost was some spell slots and less that 100gp of mundane items instead of thousands.

This is a good resource, and I think I'll need to file it away for later use. But notably, it's just a different way of fixing a problem, that being that your undead need bonuses, by equipment or spell, just to be able to function.

That said, I might have to ask my DMs if I can swap one of my feats out for that one, because it is quite good.


The Pale Master';s second level ability to use Animate Undead is increadibly useful, because it comes an an SLA. Which (it even states in Libris Mortis) means you don't need material components.

It means you can, at least, now re-stock your skeletons and zombies once per day without having to use any gold on onyx.

My Pale Master went around with a portable hole and stored a lot of his skeletons (or useful corpses) in there. (Yes, it was definitely a Krypton Factor exercise getting skeletons nestled in there - and emphatically and out-of-combat exercise - but it always kept them out of the way for them poor folks who didn't understand in towns and such.)



Though we never quite got there, I also managed to slightly cheese a way to get a Lich at ECL 11 for Undead Leadership. It involved a lot of punching chickens. (The main grovel thing being pointing out to the DM that the lich's ability to regenerate once destroyed would save us both a lot of time constantly renewing NPCs if we just pretended said character had a windfall into the money for the phylactery and the promise that said character traded out DMM:Persist after it was done on his next level up).

I haven't had quite the issue with the cost of raising as some do, I think it's quite reasonable(although I won't complain about skipping out on it). Hell, I'd even be willing to pay more if it meant my undead were more likely to be able to function out of the box.

[Aotrs Commander]

The only problem I have with this is it comes online way too late. DMM:Fell Animate at level 1 is much better but can't animate skeletons, but on the other hand doesn't have an hd limit.

Three problems with that: firstly, it does (no more than twice your HD max or more than double your HD in number, just like Animate - and the PM SLA of Animate) and it explictly says that they fall under the usual control limitations; secondly it is of no use if you're playing a Wizard necromancer (not a dread necromancer (which wasn't even an option at the time) or cleric or true necromancer or something - and DN aside, you HAVE to be to even take PM); thirdly DMM is one of those things that gets an especially hard look at by DMs with good reason (I only allow it at all because my reaction to the existance of nightsticks was "hahahaha, NO.")

(Also the forth issue: zombies are boring, skeletons are awesome and more pertiently zombies would make you party really annoyed by cutting their overland speed in half.)

[RoboEmperor]

Three problems with that: firstly, it does (no more than twice your HD max or more than double your HD in number, just like Animate - and the PM SLA of Animate) and it explictly says that they fall under the usual control limitations;

Except because it's not animate dead, it ignores the 20hd limit of skeletons and zombies made by animate dead. If you want to raise 40hd zombies this is how you do it. You don't need DMM though, just fell animate if you're high level.

Zombies are fast. In the above griffon example they have fly speed 80ft so they're faster than your PCs for overland travel.

[Efrate]

Necropoliton and spellstiching is your best way to cut costs, barring Animate Dread Warrior, which you can wish for or miracle for to get around the RP restriction. Dread warriors can do it all for you as well if you animate the right ones. For power scale though it does get out of hand since it is better than leadership since it is totally and permanently controlled undead cohort at higher level with no loops, per spell slot. Pus red wizard is a PRC in DMG so its conceivable to have access to it pretty easily if you go that route.

Bone creatures are nice, but things like zombie dragons or Hydras and big beatstick skeletons are great. Necromancy does largely come down to a gentlemen's agreement between players and DMs, like any minionmancy. Get one or two good minions and maybe some utility ones and keep it there. No armies of shadows or masses of zombies. Ride a zombie dragon, have a fire giant skeleton, a zombie hydra and maybe a single slaymate. That punches well above your weight still but is reasonable, as opposed to having hundreds of minions. Dragon breath is your AoE, Skeleton and hydra is your bruiser, slaymate lets you metamagic a bit easier to fill other gaps as needed.

[Aotrs Commander]

Except because it's not animate dead, it ignores the 20hd limit of skeletons and zombies made by animate dead. If you want to raise 40hd zombies this is how you do it. You don't need DMM though, just fell animate if you're high level.




Animate Dead

This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.

The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.)

Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit)

The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.
Skeletons

A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies

A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.
Material Component

You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells.


What 20HD limit?

No, seriously, I can't see anything in the spell about HD limtis there (nor in the PFSRD version). Are you thinking or an earlier edition?

[RoboEmperor]

What 20HD limit?

No, seriously, I can't see anything in the spell about HD limtis there (nor in the PFSRD version). Are you thinking or an earlier edition?


Hit Dice

Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell.


Hit Dice

Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of Hit Dice left, and raise them to d12s. If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell.
----------

[Aotrs Commander]

...

Okay, fair point.

The hell didn't they put that into the spell description, given they made is an explicit clause...? 3.x was usually really good at cross-referencing itself.

[Stevesciguy]

Fell Animate does not let you ignore the HD limit:


You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes. Any living creature that could normally be raised as a zombie and that does not possess more than double your Hit Dice, when slain outright by a fell animated spell, rises as a zombie under your control at the beginning of your next action. Even if you kill several creatures with a single fell animated spell, you can't create more Hit Dice of undead than twice your caster level. The standard rules for controlling undead (see animate dead, page 198 of the Player's Handbook) apply to newly created undead gained through this metamagic feat. A fell animated spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.

I'd also rather that this thread not turn into a rules discussion thread, and remain on topic.

[RoboEmperor]

Fell Animate does not let you ignore the HD limit:



I'd also rather that this thread not turn into a rules discussion thread, and remain on topic.

It most certainly does but since you don't want to talk about it I'll leave it at that.

[jintoya]

I like using custom undead, there are also some golems to give your bad guys in various monster manuals and the BoVD has a few good things to use.

A fun thing to mess with players is make giant zombies
(If you have sandstorm, look up black sand, it deals negative energy damage)
Have your necromancer stuff black sand into his undead and give him some kind of Homebrew item that makes his undead keep rising when slain... That's a big battle from just a single zombie.... Make him continually slip away unless they stop him... Then make him the underling of a lich (surprise reveal of the lich is always fun)

[Stevesciguy]

I like using custom undead, there are also some golems to give your bad guys in various monster manuals and the BoVD has a few good things to use.

A fun thing to mess with players is make giant zombies
(If you have sandstorm, look up black sand, it deals negative energy damage)
Have your necromancer stuff black sand into his undead and give him some kind of Homebrew item that makes his undead keep rising when slain... That's a big battle from just a single zombie.... Make him continually slip away unless they stop him... Then make him the underling of a lich (surprise reveal of the lich is always fun)

The issue is that I am the player, so I can't do that. Nor could I likely convince my DMs to just allow me to make a creature. If I made a well thought out and reasonably balanced homebrew system of creating custom undead, then I maybe could convince them to use it over the official system, but a single creature wouldn't work.

Also, surprise lich reveals wouldn't work so well, due to both of my characters being liches:smalltongue:

[jintoya]

The issue is that I am the player, so I can't do that. Nor could I likely convince my DMs to just allow me to make a creature. If I made a well thought out and reasonably balanced homebrew system of creating custom undead, then I maybe could convince them to use it over the official system, but a single creature wouldn't work.

Also, surprise lich reveals wouldn't work so well, due to both of my characters being liches:smalltongue:

Being a lich has a reveal "bigger fish!" Surprise, Draco-lich.

But if you are playing the necro, there are feats that Grant buffs in....I think it's libris mortis, I'm out on a boat right now but it's probably been said already, but the black sand would give fast healing to any undead you put it into, I think it's only 1d4, but that's still going to make every undead last longer, thus making each of them count for more, saving you hd of summoned undead.

You could easily get an army of undead by just starting a cult with leadership and putting some effort into it.

You could also get into alchemy and make potions that create difficult terrain, negative energy damage, etc. put them in large undead and slow all foes to a crawl while they fight your undead which are now at full HP again

[Stevesciguy]

Being a lich has a reveal "bigger fish!" Surprise, Draco-lich.

Preempted ya there. One of them is a dracolich(ok, technically a PF Ravener, but only because there isn't an official dracolich template for PF). He's also a Worm that Walks. A dragon made of undead worms. He's really gross


But if you are playing the necro, there are feats that Grant buffs in....I think it's libris mortis, I'm out on a boat right now but it's probably been said already, but the black sand would give fast healing to any undead you put it into, I think it's only 1d4, but that's still going to make every undead last longer, thus making each of them count for more, saving you hd of summoned undead.

You could easily get an army of undead by just starting a cult with leadership and putting some effort into it.

You could also get into alchemy and make potions that create difficult terrain, negative energy damage, etc. put them in large undead and slow all fired to a crawl while they fight your undead which are now at full HP again

Yeah, Corpsecrafter feats. I talked about them in the OP.

Stuffing them full of black sand is an interesting idea. Doesn't work on skeletons, though:smallfrown:

I can make armies of undead. My problem is that I can't make armies of undead that can actually hit for beans.

[jintoya]

Preempted ya there. One of them is a dracolich(ok, technically a PF Ravener, but only because there isn't an official dracolich template for PF). He's also a Worm that Walks. A dragon made of undead worms. He's really gross



Yeah, Corpsecrafter feats. I talked about them in the OP.

Stuffing them full of black sand is an interesting idea. Doesn't work on skeletons, though:smallfrown:

I can make armies of undead. My problem is that I can't make armies of undead that can actually hit for beans.

Well you could seek out ways to instead make undead that may not hit often, or for allot of damage... But have plagues, stuff then full of swarms if undead rats, bottles of alchemist fire, noxious gases that the living cannot breathe without taking debuffs.
(Sorry, I started reading the whole thread but was needed on Deck and forgot who said what, then got lazy about rereading)
Also consider that mummy rot and other diseases are hard to deal with, I think there is one magic diseases that makes morgue and you can summon some bodak to force foes to render themselves flat footed by averting have from attackers
if you are high enough level, you could see about making flying undead and instructing them to drop bombs you make.

Swarms are overlooked as a means of becoming might, and the animated graveyard is (I think) undead, I'll see when I get home

[Oberron]

Yeah, Corpsecrafter feats. I talked about them in the OP.

Stuffing them full of black sand is an interesting idea. Doesn't work on skeletons, though:smallfrown:

I can make armies of undead. My problem is that I can't make armies of undead that can actually hit for beans.

Just make sure your skeletons have boots and put the sand in there, or in gloves, heck use some glue and some kind of art skill and make cool sand deigns on your skeletons. Angry black sand eyebrows!

That's the balance with having undead either you have quality undead minions that are few in number or an army of mooks. But quantity has a quality in its own right. Assuming corpsecrafter, if you have 10 skeleton archers with only a composite(2 str) shortbow for example standing in a fell energy desecrate w/ altar(portable) you have the following:

At 5th lvl WBL is 9,000GP (also lowest level a cleric can cast animate dead normally)
Cost: 2,545GP (cost of the onyx, bows, portable evil altar, and silver dust for desecrate) so less than a third of a 5th lvl character WBL.
to-hit: +6(FES desecrate+altar)+0(human skelly BAB)+1(skelly dex)= +7 to-hit total
damage: +6(FES desecrate+altar)+2(composit shortbow limit)+1d6(shortbow)=1d6+8 averages to 11.5 per successful hit

With a quick google of average AC for monsters by CR I found someone doing the homework for me saying that CR5 has average AC of 18. That makes the skeletons have a 50% chance to hit meaning each round on average the skeletons alone are doing 57.5 damage before any kind of DR. That is a very respectable amount of damage and at range. Now melee set up with 8 skeletons (max amount around a single target without reach weapons).

Cost: 261 GP (cost of everything as above but replaced cost of the composite short bows with spears cheapest 2-handed simple weapon)

To-hit: +6(FES desecrate+altar)+0(human skelly BAB)+3(skelly str)+2(flanking bonus)= +11 to-hit total
damage: +6(FES desecrate+altar)+4(skelly str+1/2 for two-handing)+1d8(spear)=1d8+10 averages to 14.5 per successful hit

Average mob AC of 18 means: 5.6 hits(70% chance to hit) of 14.5 average damage makes it 81.2 damage a round. With less gold than a +1 weapon.

FES desecrate+portable altar is a huge boon for undead you can even buy an eternal wand of desecrate if you want so you don't even use your spell slot or extra gold. Total amount of feats used? 3 corpsecrafter, divine meta magic, Fell energy spell.

[Falontani]

Fiery Skeleton
A fi ery skeleton burns with unquenchable fl ame. Variants of the
fi ery skeleton include the lightning skeleton (deals electricity
damage, immunity to electricity) and the frost skeleton (deals
cold damage, immunity to cold).
Attack: A fi ery skeleton’s natural attacks deal an additional
1d6 points of fi re damage.
Special Qualities: Fiery skeletons have immunity to fi re,
but do not have immunity to cold.
CR Adjustment: +1/2
Nimble Skeleton
A nimble skeleton can pursue characters across unsteady terrain,
rock walls, narrow ledges, and the like.
Initiative: A nimble skeleton’s initiative modifi er increases
by 2 thanks to its improved Dexterity.
Speed: A nimble skeleton has a climb speed equal to its base
land speed.
Armor Class: A nimble skeleton’s Armor Class and touch
AC increase by 2 thanks to its improved Dexterity.
Abilities: A nimble skeleton gains an additional +4 bonus to
Dexterity.
CR Adjustment: +1/2.
Soldier Skeleton
The soldier skeleton works best in groups, and often originates
from mass battlefi eld graves. Soldier skeletons are always skeletal
humanoids, giants, or similar creatures.
Special Attacks:Cooperation (Ex): A soldier skeleton gains a +1
circumstance bonus to its attack rolls and Armor Class for each
other soldier skeleton that is adjacent to it. If a soldier skeleton
fl anks an opponent, it gains an additional +1 circumstance bonus
on attacks against that opponent.
Feats: If a soldier skeleton wields a weapon, it has Weapon
Focus in that weapon as a bonus feat. The soldier skeleton also
gains Combat Refl exes as a bonus feat.
CR Adjustment: +1.
Vicious Skeleton
Vicious skeletons seem to take mindless pleasure in disembowel-
ing their victims with their devastating claw attacks. Skeletons
without claws can’t be vicious skeletons.
Attack: A vicious skeleton’s claw attacks deal damage as if
the skeleton were one size category larger than normal (if the
creature is already Colossal, the claw attack deals 3d8 points of
damage).
Special Attacks: Rend (Ex): If a vicious skeleton hits with at
least two claw attacks, it latches onto the opponent’s body and
tears the fl esh. This attack automatically deals extra damage
equal to twice the normal damage of a claw attack plus 1-1/2
times the vicious skeleton’s Strength bonus.
Feats: Vicious skeletons gain Improved Critical (claw) as a
bonus feat.
CR Adjustment: +1.


Bloodthirsty Zombie
The bloodthirsty zombie doesn’t just want to destroy you, it wants
to crack open your skull and feast on the goo inside.
Attack: A bloodthirsty zombie gains a bite attack that deals
the same damage as its slam attack (or its normal bite damage,
whichever is more). (Bloodthirsty zombies also have a slam attack
as normal, but most don’t use it.)
Special Attacks: Blood Drain (Ex): If the bloodthirsty zombie
scores a critical hit with its bite against a living creature, that
creature takes 1 point of Constitution damage.
Feats: Bloodthirsty zombies gain Improved Critical (bite) as
a bonus feat.
CR Adjustment: +1.
Diseased Zombie
What better carrier for a horrible disease than a rotting
corpse?
Special Attacks: Disease (Ex): Any successful melee attack
by a diseased zombie exposes the target to a disease (fi lth fever).
Any creature making a successful unarmed or natural attack
against a diseased zombie is similarly exposed (a character who
grapples with a diseased zombie gets a –4 penalty on the save
made to resist infection).
CR Adjustment: +1/2.
Fast Zombie
Slow zombies are funny. They’re easy to escape on foot and can’t
run at all. After an encounter with fast zombies, the characters
won’t be laughing.
Speed: Add 30 feet to base land speed, up to a maximum of
twice the zombie’s normal base land speed. Fast zombies can
run normally.
Armor Class: The fast zombie gains a +2 dodge bonus to
AC.
Special Qualities: The fast zombie is not restricted to taking
single actions only. However, it still cannot attack more than
once per round.
CR Adjustment: +1/2
Hunting Zombie
It’s pretty easy to hide from a normal zombie, but hunter zombies
can follow and fi nd enemies with the power of scent.
Special Qualities: Hunter zombies have the scent ability.
Feats: Hunter zombies gain Track as a bonus feat.
Saves: The hunter zombie’s Will save bonus increases by 2
thanks to its improved Wisdom score.
Abilities: Hunter zombies have a Wisdom of 14.
Skills: Listen +6*, Spot +6*. *Includes a +4 racial bonus.
CR Adjustment: +1/2
Unkillable Zombie
The zombies in the Monster Manual are tough, but an unkillable
zombie is nigh-unstoppable.
Hit Points: An unkillable zombie gains 2 hp per HD (thanks
to the Undying Toughness feat; see below).
Special Qualities: An unkillable zombie gains fast heal-
ing 5.
Feats: An unkillable zombie gains Improved Toughness (see
page 27) as a bonus feat.
CR Adjustment: +1
See if your dm will allow you to apply one or more of these to your skeletons/zombies, or other templates like the Ravenous Template from Dragon Compendium.

[jintoya]

- Raise a large or larger zombie creature
- Raise a powerful swarm of undead (anything you like
- Instruct the swarm to crawl into the mouth of the zombie creature
- March your Trojan horse in there and watch all hell brake loose.


- Make powerful magic adhesives
- paint regular zombies with it
- watch as all melee weapons begin gathering zombies


- distill ammonia
- dunk zombies in it
- as ammonia evaporates it creates a toxic blinding cloud
Bonus:
- add chlorine as a powder inside so they create acidic gas when damaged enough.

-Hide small minions inside medium minions

- black powder inside ribcages of skeletons with Flint shavings turns a skeleton into a grenade

-Animate corpses with the animate objects spell as a Frontline to confuse clerics who can no longer turn them

-oozes are hard to fight, make blood oozes (libris mortis I think)

There's some tips for undead shenanigans.
As for "out of the box" things, Google: D&D monster finder...I think that's it's name, good resource for finding monsters by type

[sorcererlover]

Fell Animate does not let you ignore the HD limit:

Yes it does.

Animate dead's only hd limit is that you can't control more than 4hd per level of undead. That's what Fell Animate and Animate Dead share. Nothing else. The max hd restriction of zombies and skeletons exists in the template not the spell so Fell Animate doesn't inherit it. The template specifically only forbids animate dead from raising more than 20hd undead. That's why you can raise 40hd dragon skeletons with animate dead. Because the dragon skeleton template doesn't have the hd restriction like the normal skeleton template.


I'd also rather that this thread not turn into a rules discussion thread, and remain on topic.

It's not a discussion because this is open and shut.